Why We Struggle to Describe Wine Yet Keep Trying with Hugh Johnson

Natalie MacLean
Dec4th

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Introduction

Why is it so difficult to describe wine? How did England pave the way for Champagne as we know it today? What do winemaking and gardening share beyond being plant-based?

In this episode of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, I’m chatting with Hugh Johnson.

You can find the wines we discussed here.

 

Giveaway

Two of you will win a copy of his marvellous memoir, The Life and Wines of Hugh Johnson.

 

How to Win

To qualify, all you have to do is email me at [email protected] and let me know that you’ve posted a review of the podcast.

It takes less than 30 seconds: On your phone, scroll to the bottom here, where the reviews are, and click on “Tap to Rate.”

After that, scroll down a tiny bit more and click on “Write a Review.” That’s it!

I’ll choose three people randomly from those who contact me.

Good luck!

 

Join me on Instagram, Facebook and YouTube Live Video

Join the live-stream video of this conversation on Wednesday at 7 pm eastern on Instagram Live Video, Facebook Live Video or YouTube Live Video.

I’ll be jumping into the comments as we watch it together so that I can answer your questions in real-time.

I want to hear from you! What’s your opinion of what we’re discussing? What takeaways or tips do you love most from this chat? What questions do you have that we didn’t answer?

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Highlights

  • What’s behind Hugh’s decades-long love for Bordeaux?
  • How did Hugh’s first book about trees come about?
  • How has writing about wine and about horticulture influenced each other?
  • Are there commonalities between gardening and winemaking?
  • Where was Hugh’s favourite place to enjoy wine?
  • What was it like tasting wine with former Dom Pérignon chef de cave Richard Geoffroy?
  • How did England pave the way for Champagne as we know it today?
  • What did Hugh’s friendships with Elizabeth David and André Simon teach him about food and wine?
  • What was it like tasting a wine that was made hundreds of years ago?
  • What’s the difference between wines of “curiosity” versus “conviction”?
  • Where does Hugh think the future of wine communication will go?
  • What does Hugh hope his legacy to the wine world will be?

 

Key Takeaways

  • Why is it so difficult to describe wine?
    • As Hugh observes, the essence of writing is comparing one experience to another. He tries to exploit the wonderful vocabulary of the English language which unites the brilliance of the Latin languages and the German school. However, there are no words that actually match the taste of wine. As he says, it’s sweet, sour, bitter, and then you run out of precise taste words. So you bring in metaphors and analogies with other things.
  • How did England pave the way for Champagne as we know it today?
    • As Hugh explains that to keep the cork in a champagne bottle they used to tie it with string. The wine fermented in the bottle and the bottle exploded because the French didn’t have bottles that would take the pressure. But England did and it’s an interesting story. Under King James the First, at the beginning of the 17th century, they had to build a big fleet for the Navy to protect the country. The King decreed that all the good oak trees were for the ships only. So if you’re going to make glass, you need a furnace at a very high temperature. So they had to use coal instead of wood. Coal mainly comes from the north of England, in Newcastle. These glass furnaces got really hot, and the glass got darker, but it also got stronger. And they found that it could take the pressure of bubbly wine.
  • What do winemaking and gardening share beyond being plant-based?
    • Hugh says they both apply human skills, intelligence, and taste to natural objects. When you apply those qualities of science and intelligence and taste to it, then you begin to find more possibilities and make all different products from it. Gardening is just the same. He observes who needs 450 varieties of roses. They’re not needed, but they interest people, and people enjoy them.

 

Start The Conversation: Click Below to Share These Wine Tips

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The essence of writing is looking around an experience and saying this is a bit like that. - Hugh Johnson Hugh Johnson Click to tweet

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Both gardening and wine-making are about human skills, intelligence, and taste to natural objects. They’re not needed, but they interest people, and people enjoy them. - Hugh Johnson Hugh Johnson Click to tweet

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Curiously enough, the champagne method of bottling bubbly actually came about in England. - Hugh Johnson Hugh Johnson Click to tweet

 

About Hugh Johnson

Hugh Johnson is the world’s best-known wine writer, having sold more than 20 million books worldwide over a 60-year career. He began acquiring his wine knowledge as a member of the Wine and Food Society at Cambridge University before becoming a feature writer for Vogue and House & Garden magazines.

In 1963, he succeeded the legendary gastronome André Simon as editor of Wine and Food. At the same time, he became wine correspondent of The Sunday Times, then published his first book at the age of 27 followed by The World Atlas of Wine, Wine Companion and his annual Pocket Wine Book.

His talent for making the subject of wine irresistible is unmatched. He is not only the world’s most respected wine writer, but he is also the most loved as his kindness both inside and outside the industry has made him a hero to many, including myself.

 

Resources

 

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Thirsty for more?

  • Sign up for my free online wine video class where I’ll walk you through The 5 Wine & Food Pairing Mistakes That Can Ruin Your Dinner (and how to fix them forever!)
  • You’ll find my books here, including Unquenchable: A Tipsy Quest for the World’s Best Bargain Wines and Red, White and Drunk All Over: A Wine-Soaked Journey from Grape to Glass.
  • The new audio edition of Red, White and Drunk All Over: A Wine-Soaked Journey from Grape to Glass is now available on Amazon.ca, Amazon.com and other country-specific Amazon sites; iTunes.ca, iTunes.com and other country-specific iTunes sites; Audible.ca and Audible.com.

 

Transcript

Natalie MacLean 00:00:00 Why is it so difficult to describe wine? How did England pave the way for Champagne as we know it today? And what do winemaking and gardening share beyond both being plant based? In today’s episode, you’ll hear the stories and tips that answer those questions in Part Two of our chat with the legendary Hugh Johnson, the best known wine writer on the planet, having sold more than 20 million books, including The World Atlas of Wine. You don’t need to have listened to Part One from last week first, but if you missed it, go back and have a listen after you finish this one. By the end of our conversation, you’ll also discover why Hugh has loved Bordeaux wines for decades, even when broader trends turn to Burgundy. How Hugh developed a passion for gardening and trees, and the story behind the scenes of how he published his first book on that subject. Where Hugh’s favourite place to enjoy wine is. What it was like tasting some of the oldest and rarest vintages of Dom Pérignon Champagne with the winemaker, Richard Geoffroy. What it was like tasting a Riesling made in 1540. That’s pre Shakespeare. What’s the difference between wines of curiosity versus conviction in your cellar. What Hugh’s friendships with the renowned writers Elizabeth David and André Simon taught him about wine and food. What he thinks about the future of wine communication. And what he hopes his legacy to the wine world will be.

Natalie MacLean 00:01:41 Do you have a thirst to learn about wine? Do you love stories about wonderfully obsessive people, hauntingly beautiful places, and amusingly awkward social situations? Well, that’s the blend here on the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast. I’m your host Natalie MacLean. And each week I share with you unfiltered conversations with celebrities in the wine world, as well as confessions from my own tipsy journey as I write my third book on this subject. I’m so glad you’re here. Now pass me that bottle, please, and let’s get started.

Natalie MacLean 00:02:23 Welcome to episode 314. I’m just back from Toronto where we were chatting about wines and spirits that taste good and do good on City TV’s Breakfast Television. We’re all becoming more conscious of the impact of our purchases, and that includes what we pour into our glasses. Many wineries and distilleries are leading the way, combining exceptional taste with sustainability and community support. I think of these wines and spirits as drinking with a conscience. We get to feel virtuous and tipsy at the same time. So I’ll share with you now some of the wines that we discussed on the show for our first virtuous vino. We’re heading to the magnificent Italian Alps with Mezzacorona. The winery is actually a cooperative of 1600 families who live there and cultivate the vines. This winery has not only reduced its use of synthetic chemicals, but it has also pioneered one of the most fascinating techniques to do this. Sexual confusion. Yeah, and I’m not referring to the winemakers, but rather to the insects that eat the grapes. Many of them depend on pheromones to find mates and food. So the winery introduces other natural substances into the vineyard that tell these predatory critters this bar isn’t open. Keep flying. Mezzacorona has also been a major supporter of the arts, including film festivals, dance companies, and museums.

Natalie MacLean 00:03:54 The Pinot Grigio we tried was only about $15, and it’s as crisp and fresh as the mountain air that surrounds it and the crystalline lakes that irrigate it with aromas of lime zest and lemon sunshine. I pair it with a dish I call a taste of the Italian Alps, freshly grilled fish seasoned with a squeeze of lemon on a bed of mixed field greens and a dash of olive oil. On the show I said a bed of feel goods, but I guess you could pair it with that given that their sensitivity to the environment. I’ll have that with a bed of feel goods, please. The wine’s refreshing acidity cuts through the richness of the fish, while the citrusy notes complement the salad’s tang.

Natalie MacLean 00:04:40 Next, we’re off to southern France to visit Gerard Bertrand. Gerard Bertrand converted all 17 of his estates to biodynamic farming over the past 20 years. This approach goes far beyond organic and is rooted in a profound respect for nature, even factoring in the moon’s phases for planting and harvesting. It’s farming that’s deeply grounded while also reaching for the stars. It’s very difficult and costly to achieve this certification, and Gerard Bertrand has become an international reference in biodynamic farming for other wineries wishing to adopt this environmentally respectful way of farming. And the host on Breakfast Television, Meredith Shaw, she asked, oh, will that make this wine more expensive? And I said, actually, it’s the contrary, because once you convert to biodynamic or even organic farming, you are reducing your costs of inputs. You’re no longer using synthetic insecticides and fungicides and pesticides, and those are very expensive. They come from big chemical companies that have a lock on the market. So actually, once you finally convert – the process of converting is expensive – but once you get there, the cost of making the wine comes down. It’s like getting humans off of drugs. Heroin, cocaine, whatever. They’re expensive. And once you get off them, not only are you healthier –  as are the vines –  but life is less expensive at least in relation to those drugs.

Natalie MacLean 00:06:21 Okay, so Gerard Bertrand’s estates are also bee friendly, as in buzzing. Another important aspect with the dramatic decline in the population of these vital cross pollinators. The wine we tried was full bodied and complex with aromas of dark red fruit, smoke, and earthy spices. It’s a wine that wraps around you like a warm, smoky blanket. I’ll put the links to these wines in the show notes. I pair it with what I call French farmhouse decadence: a slow roasted duck confit, the skin crispy and caramelized, served with buttery mashed potatoes and a drizzle of berry reduction sauce. The dark fruit in the wine dances with the richness of the duck, while the smokiness adds depth to every bite.

Natalie MacLean 00:07:06 Next, we’re flying over the stunning Andes Mountains to Chile to visit the iconic winery Montes. Not only does this winery practice environmentally friendly viticulture, but it also supports educational programs for its employees, their children, as well as members of the surrounding communities who don’t work for the winery, benefiting more than 1600 students and teachers in the past two years alone. They also offer the Angel’s Dream Workshop to teach employees and community members handcraft skills so they have additional sources of income. The products are sold in the winery store and distributed worldwide through their importers. So they’re not just cultivating grapes, they’re also cultivating dreams and opportunities. The Montes Wing Carménère is liquid silk with voluptuous aromas of dark plums and violets. I’d match this with a South American tango for your taste buds: juicy grilled lamb chops marinated in spices, served alongside roasted root vegetables with a drizzle of chimichurri sauce. The lamb’s earthy notes bring out the wine’s dark fruit, while the chimichurri herbal brightness complements the floral violets in the glass.

Natalie MacLean 00:08:23 And finally, we’re heading down to Guyana to explore El Dorado, one of the world’s most premium rums that also has the smallest environmental footprint in the industry. El Dorado ensures that its entire process, from raw materials to distilling to distribution, respects the country’s delicate tropical environment that is home to more than 1200 species of animals. El Dorado converts the liquid waste from the distilling process into energy that powers their distillery. The CO2 from fermentation is purified and used by other companies to carbonate soft drinks. They also fund educational projects for young Guyanese, including those focused on the environment. We tasted the El Dorado 12 year old rum, which is pure decadence, with aromas of caramelized toffee, molasses and a hint of dark spice. I’d pair this with what I call Island Delight. Imagine jerk pork ribs caramelized on the grill, the sweetness of the meat tingling with the smoky char served with a side of grilled pineapple. The rums deep caramel notes balanced perfectly with the sweet heat of the ribs. My tasting note. Most rums put the year of the oldest vintage in their blend on the label, but El Dorado Eldorado puts the youngest. So what you’re actually getting and tasting is a rum that’s much more complex and older. From blending vintages that are older than that 12 year label, the El Dorado distillery has been making rum since the 17th century and has the world’s oldest stills, like their double wood and coffee wood stills. The blends have been perfected over hundreds of years and are still done in small batches. This is not factory scale rum, but rather handcrafted artisanal rum made from the finest demerara sugar.

Natalie MacLean 00:10:23 So here’s to wine and spirits that nourish the earth as well as our souls. Meredith asked me where we can find those wines. Of course. Online. I’ll put the links in the show notes, but also you can always find me on Instagram where I post these videos. If you want to watch them at Natalie MacLean wine, follow me there. I’ll follow you back.

Natalie MacLean 00:10:50 So today we continue our chat with wine writing giant, Hugh Johnson. I mentioned in the last episode that he endorsed my book, and a number of you emailed to ask what he said. So here’s the shortened blurb we used on the cover “There’s everything here. Lots of great stories and inquiring mind and bags of enthusiasm”. I still don’t know how he carved out eight hours to read a wine book from a novice, but I am forever grateful that he did. Two of you will win a copy of his new memoir, The Life and Wines of Hugh Johnson. As I mentioned, this is far more than a list of his favourite wines. He was an elegant writer and offers fascinating stories behind the wines he spotlights. It’s like having a dinner conversation with your most interesting wine friend, which is how I hope you’ll feel about our conversation today. All you have to do is email me and let me know you’d like to win. I’ll choose two people randomly from those who contact me at [email protected]. And it does not matter where you live. I still have one copy of the following books to give away. Inspirational Memoirs and Memories of the Women Who Shaped Ontario’s Grape and Wine Industry by Jennifer Wilhlem. The Smart Traveler’s Wine Guide to Rioja, edited by Adam Leesch. Beer and Wine Bites: 64 Simple Nibbles that Pair Perfectly with Wine by Barbara Scott Goodman. This is a beautiful hardcover recipe book with full colour pictures, etc.. In other bookish news, if you’re reading the paperback or e-book or listening to the audiobook of my memoir Wine Witch on Fire: Rising from the Ashes of Divorce, Defamation, and Drinking Too Much I’d love to hear from you at [email protected].

Natalie MacLean 00:12:31 If you’d like to give this book as a holiday gift, I’d be happy to send you personally signed, beautiful book plates that you can affix to the inside of the books you give away, both for yourself and for the copies you give as gifts. I’ll put a link in the show notes to all retailers worldwide at nataliemaclean.com/314. Okay, on with the show.

Natalie MacLean 00:13:01 I agree with you that to learn about wine, side by side tastings are terrific. And I suppose those of us who write about wine are tasting a group of similar wines to compare them. But you were quoting one winemaker who said, I don’t make my wines to go with other wines. I make them to go with food. So there’s a bit of a this environment.

Hugh Johnson 00:13:21 As soon as you start lining up wines to taste against other wines, certain wines will stand out. Rather the kind of wines that Robert Parker likes. If it is a wine that’s got more alcohol and more body and something, it will hide. If you drive around France, you’ll see whether there’s a railroad crossing. There’s a warning sign which says un train peut cacher un autre. a train can hide another train. Look down the line. So I said un vent peut cacher un autre.

Natalie MacLean 00:13:54 [laughter] Right. That’s true. You can overpower or hide. Yeah, that’s an excellent point. One thing that came through clearly is your love of Bordeaux or Claret over the years. And you’ve maintained that now. Eric Asimov, the wine columnist for The New York Times, wrote the intro for your memoir. Wonderful. In it, he refers to Burgundy, the home of Pinot Noir, and says that generally speaking it has won out over Bordeaux over the years. And I’m just going to quickly quote it.  IT captured the imagination of much of the world, while Cabernet Sauvignon, Bordeaux’s signature grape, is often merely tolerated. What has kept you loyal to Bordeaux over these years?

Hugh Johnson 00:14:38 Well, it is sure that must be true because it was sheer quantities of it. I mean, Cabernet Sauvignon is  planted in every wine growing country I would imagine. At a certain level, you merely tolerating it because it’s familiar. You know, quite like something because you know what it is. And let’s say you tolerate it. Pinot Noir doesn’t really operate on quite that level or didn’t until very recently. I mean, Burgundy used to be unique. It really did. I mean, the only good Pinot Noir in the world came from Burgundy. So of course, winemakers at other places wanted to show that they could do it, too. And over the many years, they’ve been trying to catch up with Burgundy for 40 years I suppose. And quite recently have they found the places where it’ll work, of which one is Oregon. There’s no doubt. California tends to over ripen it. I mean, I’m not saying there’s no good Pinot Noir from California. But you look further north to cooler climate, you get closer to the Burgundy model. And the other place where this happens is New Zealand, which is doing very, very well. In Australia, I don’t know whether it sort of lives up to the model.

Natalie MacLean 00:16:00 Sure, sure. And do you think that Bordeaux wins out because it’s a less floppy wine than Pinot Noir or than Burgundy?

Hugh Johnson 00:16:09 There’s so much more of Bordeaux you see.  Bordeaux is the biggest wine region in France. Samples from lots of different soil types. And within Bordeaux, the quiet differences in weather or even climate. There is far more opportunities for the quality, higher or lower quality, but also character from the different soils and everything else. So Claret is a great range and Burgundy is all trying to do the same thing.

Natalie MacLean 00:16:42 That’s interesting, I agree. And as you say, somewhere in your book there’s sort of different takes on the same plot. So there’s more variety when it comes to Bordeaux.

Hugh Johnson 00:16:54 I mean, when you get down to the nitty gritty and you look at a map of the Côte d’Or, the heart of Burgundy, you can see why. It is a tiny little plot. A couple of acres or hectare have their own character. And then you look closely at the soil, but this is really unmanageable. It becomes splitting hairs, honestly. So that’s not the way that the wine trade really handles it. I mean, basically they realized that you need to be able to identify a kind of thing rather than just the individual thing itself.

Natalie MacLean 00:17:32 Yes, absolutely. So after the success of your first two books, your publisher asked what was next. Share your answer because it does connect with your other passion, what he thought he heard and what you what you actually said at first.

Hugh Johnson 00:17:48 I said trees and he said Jesus.

Natalie MacLean 00:17:51 You wanted to write about trees.

Hugh Johnson 00:17:53 I said trees. Ah, trees he said. That’s not a consumer subject. That won’t work. But it did work. In fact, and I don’t take all the credit for it, because I had a great friend who was staying with us and we were discussing what I was working on, he said, oh, and it’s going to be a big illustrated book like Wine Books. Well, that’s what I want, but who will pay for it? And he said, wait a minute. He said, I’ve got a client who is the biggest paper maker in America. It is called the International Paper Company. So he introduced me to all members of it and I said could you help me? I want to travel all over the States. I want to go to the forests of the northwest, down to Georgia, and see the pines there and so on. And they said, well that could be really interesting. We’ve got our 75th anniversary or something coming up. And if you do this the way you did The Wine Book, we could buy a lot of copies to give to our friends and clients and something. And that’s what they did. They underwrote the book. They told the publisher they’d take like a lot of copies, like 50,000 or something, a huge number.

Natalie MacLean 00:19:20 That’s a lot of trees.

Hugh Johnson 00:19:22 It made the whole thing viable. So I set off visiting the forests of America, and that was a great time. It was a very different from the wine world.

Natalie MacLean 00:19:36 Yes, absolutely. And you’ve written five books, I believe, on gardening and authored a column for the Horticultural Society for 50 years. How has your writing about gardening influenced your approach to wine writing or has it or vice versa?

Hugh Johnson 00:19:52 It’s just trying to exploit the wonderful vocabulary that the English language ha. After all, we are so lucky to have a language which unites the brilliance of the Latin languages with a lot of the influence from the German school. So we have a vast vocabulary and I want to exploit it. Wine is a great challenge because there are no words that actually match the taste of wine. The words for taste are very limited. I mean, it’s sweet, sour, bitter, and then you sort of run out of precise taste words. So you bring in metaphor and create analogies with other things, which I just so enjoyed. I mean, to me, it’s the essence of writing is looking around experience and saying it is a bit like that.

Natalie MacLean 00:20:49 Sure, there is an infinite variety of ways to to describe wine. What do you think the two share, gardening and wine making? Plants, of course, but is there something beyond that?

Hugh Johnson 00:21:01 I would answer that by saying that they’re both applying human skills, intelligence, and taste to natural objects. A grape is a natural fruit. When you apply those qualities of science and intelligence and taste to it, then you begin to find more possibilities and make more different products from it. Gardening is just the same. I mean, who needs 450 varieties of roses? Or they’re probably more than that. They interest people and people enjoy them. So why not.

Natalie MacLean 00:21:38 Absolutely. Do you think there’s a bit of a commonality between weeding and editing?

Hugh Johnson 00:21:45 Yes, certainly [laughter]. You edit the garden when you go out there and you know fork and spade you’re editing.

Natalie MacLean 00:21:54 Yes, yes. And you say you like to garden with a light touch. Did you try to apply that approach to writing about wine as well?

Hugh Johnson 00:22:02 Well, in a sense. I’m one of those people who’s terribly curious. I always want to know what’s around the corner, what’s going to happen next. So that leads me in gardening to obviously trying so many different plants. And, in wines, it’s the same thing. I used to be interestingly curious. I have to say that I’ve made some favourites over time, and I’m less passionately keen to know what is outside my rather limited field of enjoyment. That’s just what happens with age, I’m afraid [laughter].

Natalie MacLean 00:22:39 Sure, but it’s that lifelong curiosity that has probably kept you going on both wine and gardening all of these years, I would think.

Hugh Johnson 00:22:49 In fact, I think it’s a very valuable gift to have. When a child is born, you hope that it has this gift or that gift or I do. And I would like you to have two. Curiosity and a sense of humour. Both a great help in life.

Natalie MacLean 00:23:11 Yes, they help in life and in relationships, I think. The ability to laugh. Yeah, absolutely. When you have a career or a relationship setbacks, it’s humour that will save you often.

Hugh Johnson 00:23:23 Exactly.

Natalie MacLean 00:23:25 So do you have a favourite place to combine your two passions? Like where do you like to have a glass of wine? Whether it’s where you are now, I believe you live in London, but you also had a home in the country at Sailing Hall. Where was your favourite place to enjoy it?

Hugh Johnson 00:23:39 We lived at this rather lovely old manor house, sort of 16th century house not very far from London actually. We lived there for more than 40 years, so I’ve had every sort of experience there and it also had extraordinary cellars. I mean, country houses of the Elizabethan Jacobean period, around 1600. never had wine cellars because they didn’t have wine to keep. Wine came in a barrel, but nobody had bottled wine in those days. They hadn’t even got around to inventing the cork, and the corkscrew. so they couldn’t. So yes, we had the most perfect cellars and that was a place where I probably enjoyed the very best wines I’ve had. We used to give dinner parties a lot. We had a club with six members called the Bordeaux Club. The whole point of this club, they tended to be the members were professors or dons from Cambridge University or some wine merchants from London. And we used to meet fairly regularly and produce the best food we possibly could and our best wine. That was our thing you. If you had a great wine, that’s where you drank it, which is common sense. I mean, one of the hardest things about wines, if you have a very, very good bottle, who are you going to share it with? And most of your friends can say, thanks, that was nice, but they’re not going to want to talk about it. What you want is a conversation.

Natalie MacLean 00:25:17 Yes, with someone who can appreciate it. That is everything, isn’t it? But your home at Sailing Hall. It had five different rooms in the cellar?

Hugh Johnson 00:25:25 It was extraordinary. No idea why, because, as I said, the houses of that period didn’t have wine. So why would they want cellars? We never answered that. People say, well it was a game larder. You had a lot of game. You wanted to keep it somewhere cool. You never put game in those cellars for long and stick with it too much. I’ll never know why it has those cellars, but I filled them up.

Natalie MacLean 00:25:53 Oh, wow. You were able to fill up the five rooms. Wow. That must have been quite the move when you then moved to London. Trying to, I guess, sell a portion of it or transport them.

Hugh Johnson 00:26:04 We had an auction sale. I had to.

Natalie MacLean 00:26:07 Wow. Wow. That must have been a big auction [laughter]. And you mentioned the dinners with your Bordeaux Club. Can you tell us about the dinner you had with Richard Geoffroy, the blender for Dom Pérignon?

Hugh Johnson 00:26:21 That wasn’t actually the Bordeaux Club. That was another group. Another dinner. Yes, indeed. Well, on several occasions. And of course, I went over to Champagne. He didn’t really share secrets. That wasn’t what he did. He showed you when you’re blending Champagne how many potential component parts that are in the blend. You know, we could use white grapes there and so on which was the sort of in the legend of Dom Pérignon who was supposed to have invented Champagne. Which he certainly didn’t, but I mean he was a great blender. He was a monk in the monastery there, with vineyards. And there are lots of legends about him. One of them being that he was blind, so he had to tell the wine from one village of wine from another, tasting blind naturally, and he developed the skill. But all this is just it’s all legend, really. I mean, he undoubtedly blended wine very well, but he happened to live at a moment when Champagne became really interesting. It used to be sort of the common wine of Paris a one point because it was not processed in the way it is now. The Champagne method of making it bubbly was, curiously enough, actually came about in England. The French don’t enjoy this story all that much.

Natalie MacLean 00:27:44 [laughter] They want to own it along with the story of Dom Pérignon.

Hugh Johnson 00:27:49 Well, it’s because if you keep the cork in a Champagne bottle, keep it in. You tie it as they used to with string. And now we do it with wire. And the wine ferments in the bottle and the bottle explodes. It comes down to the pressure. The French didn’t have bottles that would take the pressure. But we did in England for a certain reason. And it is a strange story. But under our King, King James the First, the beginning of the 17th century, we had to build a big fleet for the Navy. You know, we were in danger and we had to protect our little island. So we built this. And the King said al the good oak trees are for ships. Can’t do anything else with this oak.

Hugh Johnson 00:28:43 And so if you’re going to make glass, you need a furnace. You got to have a very high temperature. So he said, right, in future you’re going to use coal. Coal mainly comes from the north of England, from Newcastle and up there and started a lot of coal mining. As the coal came out and heated the furnace is really hot and the glass got it got darker, but it also got stronger. And they found that it could take pressure. Because of the higher temperatures, you were making strong glass and that meant that it you filled it with wine that was liable to ferment and create pressure and you tied the cork on, then bingo, when you cut the string and the cork popped out and you got bubbly wine.

Natalie MacLean 00:29:28 Wow. Didn’t have to wear the iron mask to dinner in case they exploded. But you were with Richard Geoffroy as this sort of Champagne pairing dinner. I loved how you described some of it. You said scallops are perfect Champagne fodder. The rich tang of the foreshore, they taste like iodine cream. Oh. So lovely. And I love when you talk about food and wine pairing. Did your friendship with the influential food writer, Elizabeth David, influence the way you talked about food and wine?

Hugh Johnson 00:29:59 Well, it certainly taught me a lot about food and cooking. Before that, my patron was André Simon, who started the Wine and Food Society. I was 21. He was 81.

Natalie MacLean 00:30:12 Oh, wow.

Hugh Johnson 00:30:14 We somehow talk to each other. I mean, we became friends. And so he promoted me to run the Wine and Food Society for a whi and to edit their magazine, which is called Wine and Food. So that was a big entree into the business. Then later on, when I was editing this little magazine Wine and Food –  not a glossy, but sort of serious looking magazine then just words –  I went and knocked at the door of the London door of my absolute heroine in food, who was Elizabeth David. She was the poet of food writers. She was a scholar. She looked back at history. She produced recipes that hadn’t been used for 200 years and sort of really gave recipe writing, and the whole business of food writing, another dimension. And she was a heroine of mine. I thought she was marvellous. One day, I knocked at her door and said, I have got this little magazine. I’ll never be happy until you ride for it. She was a not an easy woman at all, actually. She didn’t suffer fools. She said, come in. I went into her kitchen. There was a marvelous smell and bread baking and something on the stove. And I sat down and I said you write like an angel. I must have a piece for my magazine. She said, well wait a minute I’ll have a look. I’ve got lots of pieces for lots of magazines. This must be something that hasn’t been published that I can give you. And then that’s how I got her. And we became friends.

Natalie MacLean 00:32:01 That’s marvellous. What is the oldest wine you’ve tasted, Hugh?

Hugh Johnson 00:32:06 Oh, it probably. Well, we all remember the 1564 vintage, don’t we?

Natalie MacLean 00:32:17 Oh yes. Right. Like it was yesterday [laughter]. Oh, the rains that year.

Hugh Johnson 00:32:22  [Laughter] I actually got precisely the right year. I think so. Anyway, it was about the time Shakespeare was born to put it in context. It was an amazing vintage and in Germany it was a total legend. The river Rhine dried up. And, you know, people say that the stonemasons were using wine instead of water because they didn’t have any water. So this was such a spectacular occasion that they built a special barrel for it, a big barrel. And they kept this wine in the barrel until there were bottles. It had to stay in barrel for about 200 years until somebody invented the wine bottle.

Natalie MacLean 00:33:08 My goodness.

Hugh Johnson 00:33:10 Obviously, it didn’t stay because, you know, with haulage, I mean, evaporation. The level would have gone down. So what did they do? They topped up the barrel with the best wine they could find or, if they didn’t have any wine good enough, what they used to do is drop stones in the barrel to keep the level up. And so this wine, eventually, was bottled. The remaining couple of bottles were auctioned, I think. No they were bought by a king of Bavaria, celebrated as the mad King Ludwig of Bavaria. I don’t think he was mad at all. He had some crazy castles, but he had a jolly good wine cellar. And somehow or other a couple of these bottles came to London and I was invited to taste one of them. So yes, I did taste a wine from before Shakespeare was born, but it was very, very old. That’s what I can say about it. It’s actually…

Natalie MacLean 00:34:12 Did it taste all right? Or was it vinegar? Or what did it taste like?

Hugh Johnson 00:34:17 No, it wasn’t. The point is it was still alive. I mean, it was alive or dead. Once it’s vinegar, that’s it. But it was still winey. It was pretty dark brown, a little bit thick, but it was ripe. Like tasting a very, very old Madeira or something like that. So I could say I have actually consumed something that was ripened by the sun 400 years ago. That’s incredible.

Natalie MacLean 00:34:50 That is incredible. Oh my goodness.

Hugh Johnson 00:34:54 Wine is the only substance that could possibly keep like that.

Natalie MacLean 00:34:58 That’s true. And you talk about the fourth element of wine as being time. You talk about wines of curiosity versus conviction in your cellar. What’s the difference for you?

Hugh Johnson 00:35:09 Well, because it’s been my trade to write about the wines of the world, I’ve had to be curious. You know, I’ve had to have a Catholic hooray! And then I’m curious, as I said earlier. Conviction, well you know with time you narrow down your choices to things you didn’t really know. You know, you love you know more about them, too, because you go into more depth. I think when I said conviction, that’s probably what I meant.

Natalie MacLean 00:35:38 Right. Absolutely. So just a few more questions. I appreciate your time, Hugh. That leads me to one of the final questions.

Natalie MacLean 00:35:45 Where do you think wine communication is going in the future? We’re just going to boil it all down to emojis [laughter]. Or what do you hope will happen with wine communication?

Hugh Johnson 00:35:54 There’s already too much of it. Far too much. I mean, there is the internet. You can get anybody’s opinion on any wine on your laptop. So it is a public for books that take a long, intelligent look at their thing and express it in an interesting, readable, preferably amusing way. There’s a public good writing about anything, isn’t there? Really?

Natalie MacLean 00:36:22 There is. Absolutely. Good writing never goes out of fashion. What do you hope your legacy to the wine world will be?

Hugh Johnson 00:36:30 Yeah, that’s a very difficult question. A lot of maps for one thing.  Ways of talking about wine ideas, opening up the field of ways of talking about wine in terms of similes and metaphors and stories. I don’t know if I’ll actually have any influence on any other writers. That’s not what I’m for. But if people enjoy what I write, then that’s the whole point.

Natalie MacLean 00:36:59 Absolutely. And you already have had profound influence on a lot of writers, including Eric Asimov, who says he tried to style his own writing after you in that intro.

Hugh Johnson 00:37:10 Did he say that? Did he really? Bless you, Eric.

Natalie MacLean 00:37:12 You should read reread your book [laughter]. This is marvellous. There’s so many more topics we could have covered and you do in your wonderful book. So we have those. Try not to jam it all into this conversation, but I’ve loved chatting with you. Your stories are amazing. I do encourage everyone to go out and buy.

Hugh Johnson 00:37:32 You’re very good at asking questions.

Natalie MacLean 00:37:35 Thank you.

Hugh Johnson 00:37:37 Thank you.

Natalie MacLean 00:37:39 Oh. That’s sweet. That’s very kind of you. Of course,  The Life and Wines of Hugh Johnson is available from Academie du Vin. We’ll put a link in the show notes to the book. We’ll link to Academie du Vin, to all of your books: The Pocket Book, The Atlas. There are just so many. So I am going to say goodbye for now. But thank you again so much for taking this time. It’s meant a lot to me personally and I know our listeners are just going to love listening to this conversation. Just you’ve contributed so much to the wine world and we thank you for it.

Hugh Johnson 00:38:15 Thank you.

Natalie MacLean 00:38:17 All right. Cheers.

Natalie MacLean 00:38:20 Well, there you have it. I hope you enjoyed her chat with Hugh. Here are my takeaways. Number one, why is it so difficult to describe wine and why do I keep on trying? That was my inside head voice. As Hugh observes, the essence of writing is comparing one experience to another. He tries to exploit the wonderful vocabulary of the English language, which unites the brilliance of the Latin languages as well as those from the German school. However, as he says, there are no words that actually match the taste of wine. As he says, there sweet, sour, bitter, salty, umami, and then you run out of precise tasting words. So you have to bring in metaphors and analogies with other things. And that’s where the danger of running into word salad is. But anyway, we try. We keep trying. Wine is very inspiring.

Natalie MacLean 00:39:16 Number two, how did England pave the way for Champagne as we know it today? I thought this was a really interesting story that Hugh shared with us, so that in order to keep the cork in a Champagne bottle, they used to tie it with string. The wine fermented in the bottle and the bottle would explode because the French did not have bottles that would take that pressure. So they would wear iron masks in the cellar, because you never knew when the thing was going to blow up beside you. But England did have stronger bottles. And it’s an interesting story under King James the First. At the beginning of the 17th century, they had to build a big fleet for their navy to protect their country. The King decreed that all good oak trees were for ships only. So if you’re going to make glass, you need a furnace at a very high temperature. They had to use coal instead of wood for this. Coal mainly comes from the north of England in Newcastle. You know that expression, it’s like bringing coal to Newcastle. These glass furnaces got really hot and the glass got darker and stronger, and they found that it could take the pressure of bubbly wine. Now there’s a little story for your next dinner party.

Natalie MacLean 00:40:29 And number three, what do winemaking and gardening share beyond being plant based? Hugh says they both apply human skills, intelligence and taste to natural objects. When you apply those qualities of science and intelligence and taste to this, to these two endeavours, then you begin to find more possibilities and to make different iterations from them. Gardening is the same. Hugh observes that who needs 450 varieties of roses? They’re not needed, but they interest people, and we enjoy them just as we do infinite varieties of Riesling, Chardonnay, Cabernet, etc. It’s not need, it’s want, and it’s about pleasure.

All right. In the show notes, you will find a full transcript of my conversation with Hugh, links to his website and books, links to the wines I mentioned that I was talking about on City TV Breakfast Television, the video versions of these conversations on Facebook and YouTube live, and where you can order my book online now no matter where you live.

Natalie MacLean 00:41:33 If you missed episode 170, go back and take a listen. I chat about English sparkling wine with Janina Doyle. I’ll share a short clip with you now to whet your appetite.

Janina Doyle 00:41:44 If you’ve never tried English wine, the best to try would be sparkling. Our sparkling wine is actually the closest thing you’re going to find to Champagne. And not like it’s a mimic. When there has been blind tasting competitions, English wine has very often won. About 70% of the wine is sparkling wine and the varieties grown in England are the three Champagne varieties Chardonnay, Pinot Noir and Pinot Meunier.

Natalie MacLean 00:42:10 What is it that your wine region shares with Champagne?

Janina Doyle 00:42:14 It is the soils. The Paris basin is free draining. It’s typically chalk, limestone, and clay. It gives you that minerality and beautiful acidity. That same soil type is what we have in England, certainly in the southern part of England.

Natalie MacLean 00:42:30 The white cliffs of Dover. Is that chalk or limestone?

Janina Doyle 00:42:34 It is all chalk. Dover is in Kent and actually the home to most wineries or certainly the top wineries.

Natalie MacLean 00:42:44 You won’t want to miss next week, when we chat with David Way about his new book, The Wines of Piedmont or Piemonte, as they say, an unparalleled coverage of one of Italy’s most important wine regions. David joins us from his home in London. If you enjoyed this episode or learned even one thing from it, please email or tell a friend about the podcast this week, especially someone you know who’d be interested in learning more about how to deepen their wine knowledge and enjoyment from the industry’s most renowned writer. It’s easy to find my podcast. Just tell them to search for Natalie MacLean Wine on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, their favourite podcast app, or they can listen to the show on my website at nataliemaclean.com/podcast. Email me if you have a sip, tip, question, if you’d like to win a copy of the books I mentioned in the intro, including Hugh Johnson’s memoir, or if you’ve read any of my books or listening to them.

Natalie MacLean 00:43:43 I’d love to hear your thoughts about this episode. Were you surprised about England’s role in creating Champagne? Do you find it difficult to describe a wine or to understand the word salad that some of us wine writers use to describe it? Got another thought about this conversation? Email me [email protected]. In the show notes, you’ll also find a link to take a free online food and wine pairing class with me called The Five Wine and Food Pairing Mistakes That can Ruin Your Dinner an How to Fix Them Forever at nataliemaclean.com/class. And that’s all in the show notes at nataliemaclean.com/314. Thank you for taking the time to join me here. I hope something great is in your glass this week, perhaps a wine that is so pleasurable it is beyond words. You don’t want to miss one juicy episode of this podcast, especially the secret full bodied bonus episodes that I don’t announce on social media. So subscribe for free now at nataliemaclean.com/subscribe. Meet me here next week. Cheers.

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