Why Did Greece Have the First Sommeliers, Wine Tastings and Writers? Konstantinos Lazarakis Reveals the Answers

Amazing Gains
Feb5th

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Introduction

What are some of the significant contributions that Greece has made to the world of wine? How does the Greek volcanic island of Santorini produce wines of stunning depth and freshness at the same time? How are Greek wines shifting the perspective on what’s possible for warm climate wines?

In this episode of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, I’m chatting with Master of Wine Konstantinos Lazarakis.

You can find the wines we discussed here.

 

Giveaway

Two of you are going to win a copy of his terrific book, The Wines of Greece.

 

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Highlights

  • What are some of the significant contributions to wine made in Greece?
  • What are some of the unique and complex terroirs found in Greece for wine production?
  • How do Santorini’s wines achieve both incredible depth and freshness?
  • What are the hallmark characteristics of Assyrtiko grapes, and how does the wine pair with food?
  • How does the tasting experience of Moschofilero compare with that of Assyrtiko?
  • What should you know about Greece’s flagship red grapes, Agiorgitiko and Xinomavro?
  • Which regions are a must-try in your exploration of Greek wines?
  • How was Retsina developed, and why does Konstantinos think it’s one of the greatest hopes for the Greek wine industry?
  • How did the Greek financial crisis impact and improve the Greek wine industry?
  • What are some of the opportunities and challenges in the future of Greek wines?

 

Key Takeaways

  • What are some of the significant contributions that Greece has made to the world of wine?
    • As Konstantinos observes, Greece was not the first to make wine or even the first to have a God that is dedicated to wine, but we did a lot of things for the first time: the first appellations or regions, sommeliers, wine writers and tastings. For the Greek symposia, the whole format of consuming wine was essential in making sure that symposia were an amazing celebration of the human intellect, and the bringing together of ideas. First they ate and relaxed. Then the oenochoe or sommeliers brought out the wine, and they talked undisturbed, in a relaxed and open manner. In that social fabric wine was woven into the tightest stitches.
  • How does the Greek volcanic island of Santorini produce wines of stunning depth and freshness at the same time?
    • Konstantinos explains that because Santorini is a volcanic island it has a young soil that’s coarse. So the younger the soil, the less clay it has. Clay is the finest particle. Santorini has no clay, so phylloxera cannot survive. The vines grow on their own roots, but above ground, it’s very windy, extremely hot, so the vines have to kept low on ground to capture a little humidity and be protected from the wind.
    • They trained these vines as baskets by weaving the vine canes over years. Everything that is one the periphery is torn apart by the wind, but then you have only the middle that survives. In Santorini, you have a low yield of just 8-12 hectoliters per hectare. Every about 30-40 years, the basket gets too bulky, so it’s chopped apart and a new cane from the old root system starts a new basket. The root system is four hundred years old. For context, he adds, four centuries ago, Bordeaux was a swamp.
  • How are Greek wines shifting the perspective on what’s possible for warm climate wines?
    • Konstantinos says that many people believe that a cool climate wine is superior to a warm climate one. But warm climates can produce amazing wines. Greece has a lot of places that are cold, even more so than the Loire Valley in France. Over the years, the Greeks selected grapes with full flavors at lower levels of alcohol.

 

Start The Conversation: Click Below to Share These Wine Tips

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Acidity is a common characteristic of most Greek wines. - Konstantinos Lazarakis Konstantinos Lazarakis Click to tweet

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We’re living in a cool climate wine dictatorship. - Konstantinos Lazarakis Konstantinos Lazarakis Click to tweet

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I bet that in five years, more international wine professionals are going to see that Greek wine has a lot more to offer. - Konstantinos Lazarakis Konstantinos Lazarakis Click to tweet

 

About Konstantinos Lazarakis MW

Konstantinos Lazarakis MW is the first person in Greece to have passed the notoriously difficult Master of Wine exams. He is the author of Wines of Greece, published by Academie du Vin. As well, he serves as the President of Wines & Spirits Professional Center, General Manager of Aiolos Wines and CEO of Wine Wonders.

 

Bonus Interview – Matt Cauz

Highlights

  • How do I distinguish between sexist, sexy, and sexual writing?
  • What are some strategies you can try to avoid using wine as a coping mechanism?
  • What trends are emerging around generational differences in wine consumption?
  • Why is it important for us to vote with our dollars when it comes to producers accused of misconduct?
  • What are the best wine pairings for different types of chocolate and holiday dinners and celebrations

 

About Matt Cauz

Matthew Cauz is a writer at CL, co-host of the Macko & Cauz Podcast, and host of the Matt Talks Wine & Stuff with Interesting People Podcast.

 

Resources

 

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  • The new audio edition of Red, White and Drunk All Over: A Wine-Soaked Journey from Grape to Glass is now available on Amazon.ca, Amazon.com and other country-specific Amazon sites; iTunes.ca, iTunes.com and other country-specific iTunes sites; Audible.ca and Audible.com.

 

Transcript

Natalie MacLean 00:00:00 What are some of the significant contributions that Greece has made to the world of wine? How does the Greek volcanic island of Santorini produce wines of stunning depth and freshness at the same time? And how are Greek wines shifting the perspective on what’s possible for warm climate wines? In today’s episode, you’ll hear the stories and tips that answer those questions. In part two of our chat with Konstantinos Lascaris. You don’t need to have listened to part one from last week first, but if you missed it, go back and have a listen after you finish this one. By the end of our conversation, you’ll also discover some of the unique and complex terroirs found in Greek wine, the hallmark characteristics of grapes, and how the wine pairs with food. How tasting. Muscat compares with I’m so proud of how I’ve learned to pronounce those names, but here comes some Tuffy’s what you should know about Greece’s flagship red grapes ash, Tycho and Xenon. Overall, I’ve probably mucked those up, but that was my best shot there. The regions that are a must try in your exploration of Greek wines.

Natalie MacLean 00:01:14 How Retsina developed and why Konstantinos thinks it’s one of the greatest hopes for the Greek industry. How the country’s financial crisis actually helped wine producers. And what are the opportunities and challenges in the future of Greek wines? Do you have a thirst to learn about wine? Do you love stories about wonderfully obsessive people, hauntingly beautiful places, and amusingly awkward social situations?

Natalie MacLean 00:01:47 Well, that’s the blend here on the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast. I’m your host, Natalie MacLean, and each week I share with you unfiltered conversations with celebrities in the wine world, as well as confessions from my own tipsy journey. As I write my third book on this subject, I’m so glad you’re here. Now pass me that bottle, please, and let’s get started.

Natalie MacLean 00:02:17 Welcome to episode 323. I’ve had a nasty head called for a week that I would not wish on anyone, but the upside is that I’ve had no desire for wine. Not least because I couldn’t smell it. So it’s been an unplanned detox week. As I recover from this cold and my liver anxiously awaits for what’s next.

Natalie MacLean 00:02:39 On a serious note, I’ve never slept better, though that could be the cold medicine. So I’m going to try to recalibrate my intake to just two glasses of wine three evenings a week. I was at 2 to 3, three evenings a week. Okay, let’s be honest, it was three. But how about you? Any changes in your wine consumption. As you start the new year. Meanwhile, I’m still reviewing my favorite wines on Instagram at Natalie MacLean. Wine that’s at Natalie MacLean wine on Insta. So connect with me there. Back to today’s guest. Two of you will win copies of Konstantinos new book, The Wines of Greece. All you have to do is email me and let me know that you’d like to win. I’ll choose two winners randomly from those who contact me at Nathalie at Natalie MacLean. In other bookish news, if you’re reading the paperback or e-book or listening to the audiobook of my memoir, Why Am I on Fire? Rising from the Ashes of Divorce, defamation, and Drinking Too Much.

Natalie MacLean 00:03:36 A national bestseller and one of Amazon’s best books of the year. I’d love to hear from you at Natalie at Natalie MacLean. Com. I’d be happy to send you beautifully designed, personally signed book plates for the copies you buy or give as gifts. I’ll put a link in the show notes to all retailers worldwide at Natalie MacLean. Com forward slash 323. The paperback usually arrives within a day or two of ordering. The book and audiobook are instantly available at the end of today’s episode. I’m including part two of the bonus interview I did with Matt cos on his podcast about the issues in the book. We go behind the scenes of the wine world into its underbelly. This is a digestive, not the wine for the main meal conversation here today, so feel free to keep listening if you’re thirsting for more or not. Okay, on with the show. So Dionysus, of course, the Greek god of wine, embodies both celebration and chaos. How do you see his mythology influencing Greek wine culture today?

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:04:46 Well, that connection, I think, might be to some degree lost in terms of Semantics in terms of hardcore proper, obvious relevance.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:04:59 But at the same time, as I’m saying, the DNA that created Dionysus still lives on. We were not the first people making wine. Georgians. Mesopotamia got the gong on that. Hats off. Thank you. We were not the first people since you mentioned the Dionysus. We were not the first people. Having a god that is related or even dedicated to wine. Egyptians had that before that. Phoenicians had that before that. But we did a lot of things for the first time. The first sommeliers in Troy were Greeks, the first wine writers. Even someone could argue wine journalists were Greek.

Natalie MacLean 00:05:43 Oh, who is that?

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:05:44 Well, there are specific names. You can find them. I can. Oh, you mean like.

Natalie MacLean 00:05:49 Heraclitus or something? Like. Like you’re going way back into ancient. I was thinking somebody before Hugh Johnson. Yeah.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:05:56 You are having the Greek symposia and the whole notion, the whole format of consuming wine was essential in making sure that symposia were evolving into that amazing celebration of the human brain, the human intellect.

Natalie MacLean 00:06:17 Because the symposium was the bringing together of ideas. I don’t know what the etymology is of symposia, but yeah, wine was part of it, right?

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:06:24 Yes. And they were doing a very clever thing. They were eating and that was the first fast part. And then they were relaxing. Then the enjoy were bringing out the wine and they started talking so undisturbed, relaxed. Everyone was supposed to be talking up his mind. At that time, women were not unfortunately allowed. So that celebration, that social fabric that had wine really woven into the tightest spots. That’s the first time we see this happening in Homo sapiens legislation. We had appellations like.

Natalie MacLean 00:07:07 The Grand Cru, right, as well, like the.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:07:09 We were not using the word Grand Cru, but yes, we had cult wines. There is evidence that if you wanted to buy a wine from a specific area, you should be looking for specific and for a shape that appellation was allowed to use only that amphora, like the fluid bottle in Alsace.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:07:29 All of these things, specific seals on the amphora top only specific ports were allowed to have ships going out with this wine. I mean, we would be reaching France in the early 20th century to achieve that degree of sophistication in.

Natalie MacLean 00:07:50 Quality control as well?

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:07:51 Yes. So we have been there before. Everyone else.

Natalie MacLean 00:07:55 There you go. We’re just coming full circle now. To understand where we began. So you emphasize the role of terroir in Greek winemaking. You know, that unique combination of soil, climate and other factors. What’s the most extreme or unique terroir that you’ve encountered in Greece?

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:08:12 Before I go there, because it’s a very exciting thing to talk about the Greek terroir. I have to admit that I don’t really care about terroir as I’m saying. I am a lover, infatuated, loving, the Greek genius, the human genius. Well, the genius can be everywhere. I’m talking about Christian wax. Even if you throw Christian wax in the middle of nowhere in the Nowhere Land, he will be able to make an amazing wine.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:08:44 Because he’s a true genius. He has an amazing brain. That’s what fascinates me about wine. I love people, I love clever guys making amazing things. Even Sadie, Stephen and Prue Henschke. They have great wines, but it’s their mind that blows my mind. But going to the Greek terroir. Okay. A few things. Wherever you are in Greece, you’re close to the sea. But at the same time, we are an extremely mountainous country. We have a lot of mountains. Imagine it’s the Balkan Peninsula digging into the Mediterranean Sea. Well, actually, it’s the other way around. We have Africa pulling up Greece. So the African plague is pushing towards Europe and Greece is lifted. Go to your nearest map and check the topography. The coastline. Africa is pretty straight. Europe? Mediterranean. Europe is crazy because it’s being lifted up from the ocean. So we’re very mountainous at the same time and very close to the sea in all places. Because of the mountains, we have very little planes.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:09:58 And wine is not essential. I’m afraid to say so. The little planes that we have in Greece are for proper food. Although we can see the wine being food. So we must have in that little plane that can be cultivated. We must grow our tomatoes, our lettuce, that stuff, whatever is left. We go for two things. Vines and olive groves. Because these are cultivations that have very minute capacities in terms of water as well as nutrients.

Natalie MacLean 00:10:32 So they can survive where other crops cannot.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:10:35 Yes. So that has been the very definition of, you know, Darwinian evolution in terms of terroir in Greece. So we have been pushing our vines into places where vines were supposed to be behaving well. You go in other places. I won’t say names in a lot of New World places that Europeans were going there. They wanted to have a bit of wine and they wanted to have that wine easy. You would never have people going up to Mosel or Mountaineer or in even a minto in Greece, Mosel in Germany by like making things easy.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:11:16 They were going for the fat place, a flat place in the fertile plains, so very little fertile lands not dedicated to wine, a lot of high altitudes, a lot of different aspects, a crazy topography because Africa lifts us up. We have a lot of earthquakes, a lot of earthquakes. You know that from San Andreas Fault in California, all the places that have a lot of earthquakes that have crazy topographies. Japan. Same story. Also, our seas around us have a lot of violence. Islands are becoming more and more important in the Greek wine scene. These islands have like shallow seas. So sea behaves a bit differently. So all these permutations create an extremely complicated, crazy place. And the inquiring minds of people that know what they want to do, they superimpose that complexity of place to the complexity of the vinifera genes. And boom, you’re having Greek wine.

Natalie MacLean 00:12:26 There you go. Well, let’s talk about Santorini, because that’s pretty extreme. As a specific example, it’s an island. It’s volcanic.

Natalie MacLean 00:12:35 I read this, but how does it happen that they can produce wines of incredible depth, which usually means higher alcohol or some sort of complex layering and freshness, which is usually reserved for describing light, zesty white wines. I mean, how do those two things come together on Santorini?

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:12:55 We had in the past few years a lot of people that studied viticulture in other places around the world Australia, Davis, Bordeaux. They just go to Santorini, they do a couple of vintages and then they go out of the rooms. They throw in the fireplace their viticulture handbooks from the university, and they strike them out and just set them ablaze.

Natalie MacLean 00:13:23 Okay.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:13:23 That’s because everything you know is, is, is is different. So Santorini, it’s a volcanic island, which means that it has a very, very young soil. Just a bit technical. A young soil is very coarse. Clay is the finest particle. So the younger the soil, the less clay it has. Santorini has zero clay and phylloxera cannot survive.

Natalie MacLean 00:13:52 That devastating root loss that killed all the vines in the 1800s in Europe. Yeah.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:13:57 Yes. So there are places in the world that are phylloxera free. Santorini. Is phylloxera immune? You can take a pint of these bugs, throw them in the middle of Santorini and nothing will happen. Okay, so the vines are allowed to grow their own roots in that soil. But above ground it’s very windy, extremely hot. So the vines have to be kept low on ground to capture that little humidity getting up from the caldera of the volcano, but at the same time being protected from the wind. So people have been using their mind and maybe out of practicality, maybe out of the need to create something that is beautiful. They started training these vines as baskets. Just Google it. Santorini wine. You’ll see these baskets lying on the ground.

Natalie MacLean 00:14:53 They’re training them in a basket shape.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:14:56 Yes. Basket shape.

Natalie MacLean 00:14:57 So are they actually putting physical baskets in the vines? Circle around. Grow around a basket.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:15:02 No no, no.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:15:03 They formed the basket by weaving the canes. It takes a bit of years.

Natalie MacLean 00:15:09 Okay. So they grow circularly. All right.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:15:11 Yes. So everything that is to the periphery, small shoots and the young bunches are being torn apart by the wind. And then you have only the middle bit that survives. Wow. That’s why we’re having naturally extremely low yields in Santorini. You’re having. Can I talk like hectolitres per hectare? Sure. A hectare is a Greek word. Hectoliter is 100l. So you go to Grand Cru Burgundy and then they say we are doing 30 hectolitres per hectare. 30 hectolitres per hectare is 3000l out of a hectare of land. You go in Sowetan and they say we do 12 hectolitres per hectare and they’re lying because. So ten you pick only the knobbly rotten grapes and you leave the rest for other wines or to be left on the vine. So the vines are producing 5060 hectolitres, but they select that berry in Santorini you’re having 12, ten, eight hectolitres per hectare. It’s bizarre, extremely low yield.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:16:19 And, you know, this is in Santorini, one of the most beautiful places in the world where the tourism industry goes bonkers. You’re not in the middle of nowhere in a place that it’s wine or nothing. You are in Santorini. Back to the vines every about 4030 years. The basket gets too bulky. Too difficult to work. It’s chopped apart. And a new cane from the old root system starts a new basket. So we have in Santorini a lot of vines where it’s a 40 year old basket above ground. And then the root system is four centuries old. Oh, wow. For centuries ago, Bordeaux was a swamp. Okay. There was not a single vine in Bordeaux.

Natalie MacLean 00:17:15 They had to dig it all to get rid of the water. Yeah.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:17:18 Yes. So this is Greece. This is Santorini. But what you said about the combination of freshness and high alcohol. We have the extreme wind stress. We have that very old root system supporting a relatively younger, aboveground physiology. And then we have the glory of acetic acid, which is a fantastic grape variety.

Natalie MacLean 00:17:46 And red or white.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:17:47 Oh, that’s a good question. Okay. Acidic. So has gender dysphoria. I’m really convinced about that. As ethical knows it’s a black grape variety, but it’s a white grape variety. And every moment, every day looks at the mirror and saying, I am a black grape. And then produces wine. All the people around the world see a white wine and they say, no, no, no, you’re a white grape. Assertive is one of the few, if any, white grapes that produce wine that can compete with red wines in many of the red wine qualities.

Natalie MacLean 00:18:29 So the depth and complexity. So they’re not letting skin contact. That’s how they keep it white.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:18:34 No, no, it’s a white grape. It’s a white grape. But this is a grape that manages at the same time to have huge levels of acidity. While, okay, the alcohol in Santorini can be quite high. It can be 14, 14.5%, sometimes lower. But you don’t feel it because of the freshness of the minerality.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:18:54 There is very little fruit in acidic. It’s all about minerality.

Natalie MacLean 00:18:59 And acidity, right?

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:19:00 Yes, yes. If you run courses and you want to show your students what minerality is. Grab a bottle of Santorini and they will immediately understand the concept. Extreme acidity, huge minerality, a lot of character, a lot of concentration. You get Santorini acidity in your mouth and the whole broadness is like a red wine. That’s why I’m saying that acidity has that gender dysphoria.

Natalie MacLean 00:19:29 Okay. Wow. And so Santorini, you mentioned the tourism is huge. Greece is a beautiful country. Why is Santorini so popular? It’s beautiful, I assume, but is there something unique or do you have tips on if we visit there?

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:19:43 It’s the caldera. It’s one of the youngest volcanoes in the world. The view is breathtaking.

Natalie MacLean 00:19:51 And the caldera is the name of the volcano.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:19:53 Caldera is a geologic term defining that sudden slope that forms around underwater volcano. So it’s a dramatic cliff. And then you overlook the volcano. Every single person has to be at least once in Santorini to know that by saying that, I’m ruing the sort of future potential of new vineyards in Santorini.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:20:21 But, you know, just just see the pictures, Google Santorini.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:20:25 And you’ll see the.

Natalie MacLean 00:20:25 Sparkling turquoise blue Mediterranean sea. It just seems gorgeous. And what would you pair with a Asako from Santorini? What would be some of your favorite dishes to pair with it?

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:20:38 All right. the short answer is anything that is grilled seafood, even white meat, would go fantastic. The slightly longer answer is that I hate food and wine matching.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:20:50 Okay.

Natalie MacLean 00:20:51 So out with terroir, out with food and wine matching.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:20:55 I think that, food and wine matching over complicates, already over complicated product, which is wine. I think that the French style of food and wine matching that. Now all the people around the world think that it’s the mantra. First course with this wine, second course with that wine. Third course with this wine. I think it’s silly. And it doesn’t create good companies. It doesn’t create good conversations. In Greece, we put everything in the middle and we share. And there is a reason why in the US You call that family style because this is the way families eat all the mammals.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:21:36 It like that. Imagine, you know, the leopards, the families having a kill in the middle and the two generations eating together. It’s very essential to share food. So when you’re having everything in the middle at the first time, you can have the same dishes. And you can have a carnivore, a omnivore, and a vegan sharing the same table and not sharing the same dishes, but sharing the experience of sharing. So the concept of eating this wine with this food goes out of the window, right? Because you have a bite of some shrimps and then a bite of anchovies, and then maybe some grilled cheese, and then back to the anchovies because they were really good. So you need things that really quench your thirst and clear your palate. This has been the defining feature of selecting these gray varieties in Greece. We don’t want to have this. Go with that like chef with Sauvignon Blanc. No no no. We want exciting, fresh, clean palette wines. That would go with a huge range of different dishes.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:22:46 So we have 5 or 6 different things on the table at the salad. At the same time, like a salad. Have some fish, some white meat and have a bottle of acid. You’ll be amazed with the versatility. You’ll be amazed with the experience, I think.

Natalie MacLean 00:23:02 Well, another one of my favorite white wines is Muscat. It’s very floral, very expressive. How would you contrast that with assertive? Especially from Santorini.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:23:12 Okay. Assertive is a relatively low intensity on the nose, but very mineral. Moscow is very floral and very intense. Very rose petal. Both have excellent acidity. Acidity is a common characteristic of most Greek wine. Think about matching these wines with many different foods, and need your palate being refreshed every time you have a sip. But most of all is relatively low in alcohol. We had for lunch that was 11% alcohol. Full flavor. I mean, can you remember the days we were drinking wines that were 11, 11.5, 12% alcohol?

Natalie MacLean 00:23:54 I think that was before my time.

Natalie MacLean 00:23:57 They’ve never been that low other than, you know, maybe a German Riesling, that sort of thing. But then you get the trade off with the sweetness.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:24:04 Yeah. The myth lives on in Greece. We can still get a lot of Greek wines with relatively low levels of alcohol. And we know because the whole market sign of quality in Greece is only one the empty bottle. If we sit together to share a few dishes and the bottle is not empty at the end of the evening, No matter the flavors, the complexity, the length, the complexity of texture or blah blah blah blah blah, all the things we care to say about wine and quality doesn’t really matter if we cannot get a second glass.

Natalie MacLean 00:24:40 Absolutely. Now, you’ve already said Greece is very warm. How did they get the low alcohol wines? Are they picking early or is it canopy leaf management? Like how are they managing to keep the alcohol low on Muscat?

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:24:52 All right. two things. The first thing is that we are living in a cool climate dictatorship.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:25:00 It’s cool climate. It’s good. It’s warm climate. It’s bad. I’m only drinking cool climate wines and all that stuff. no warm climates can produce amazing wines. Then they go to create, and they spend ten days there. No. No. Rain. Sun. 35°C. I’m not sure. How much is that in Fahrenheit? And they say, oh, good for holidays, summer holidays. But, you know, bad for wine. There is no way you can make good wine in these places. No. Greece has a lot of places that are really cold. That might be even colder than specific parts of LA. And then during all this symbiotic relationship, co-evolution between people that want to enjoy a bit more wine and have different foods and all these different grape varieties, we selected the grapes that can give full flavors at lower levels of alcohol. So that has been the outstanding produce of centuries of going back and forth. Trial and error on behalf of Greek people, making wine and enjoying wine at the same time.

Natalie MacLean 00:26:13 Yeah, that makes total sense. And then on the red side, what would you say is the flagship red wine or grape in Greece?

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:26:21 Right. Okay. We have a call in the mail. That is a charmer.

Natalie MacLean 00:26:26 Can you spell that?

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:26:27 It’s a g I o r t I t I o. I mean, even I can I add your.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:26:38 I really have to go. Okay.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:26:39 Oh, that was a good pronunciation.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:26:42 Okay. So it’s.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:26:46 So it’s here in Nama which is in Peloponnese, which is a charmer. Fried ripe berry fruit, but not overripe or soft. Velvety tannins. Very round palate. I mean, you cannot put the the glass down.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:27:02 That sounds like Pinot.

Natalie MacLean 00:27:02 Noir in.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:27:03 A way. Yes, yes for sure.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:27:05 And then you have cinnamon rub in the north. Cinnamon. Is the Barolo like the heavy metal? Like a side of Greek wine? That might be a bit challenging for the novice drinker because it’s high acidity, really high tannin, very grippy tannin.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:27:23 The nose is more tomato and spices and the leather rather than jolly good fruit. But for the people that care, it can be one of the most amazing grape varieties in the world. So these two I would pick up, these two, the charmer and the more intriguing.

Natalie MacLean 00:27:40 Oh, those sound great. So yeah, you’ve already talked about how old the vines can be, or at least the root system. Are there any other major regions? I know we’re condensing this so quickly, but are there other wine regions that you really wanted to highlight? Maybe 1 or 2 in Greece.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:28:00 Now in northern Greece is the, sort of the powerhouse of the producers grabbing. Now I can spell that. It’s NA0, USA.

Natalie MacLean 00:28:12 Okay. Now.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:28:13 Nawsa is the powerhouse of cinnamon roll you are having. As I said further down in Peloponnese. Many, many islands. I mean, people say that the islands are the Greek wine. Next level 2.0. I would say 15.0. Crete. Tinos. Paros. Kefalonia.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:28:35 All over the place. I mean, again, how much time do you have? Every single place producing wine in Greece has at least one producer. That is a must try.

Natalie MacLean 00:28:48 Okay. Yeah. And I mean, so beautiful place to visit. I think that’s probably the best way to kind of learn about that.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:28:55 We’re waiting.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:28:55 For you.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:28:56 Happily.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:28:56 We’re waiting for you.

Natalie MacLean 00:28:57 Thank you for the invite. So. Oh, one thing I wanted to cover, too, was retsina. I don’t know if I’m pronouncing that correctly.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:29:05 Yes.

Natalie MacLean 00:29:05 So it’s made with pine resin from the bark of the pine tree. To me, it’s always smelt like pine resin. I find it very strong, almost like, dare I say, lemon pledge. Like a cleaner. Is it an acquired taste? How did that develop? Why did people want to create this? And is it just an acquired taste?

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:29:26 Okay. What is routine? A routine is like a proper white wine. But when you go through the alcoholic fermentation, you just dip a small dollop of pine resin into the fermentation barrel.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:29:39 That whatever. And there you have the retsina. We started doing this because it was something like a positive. So when you were having some oxidation kicking in, you cannot really spot it. It’s pretty much the same way. Why? A lot of people around the world started doing spicy food. Spicy food? It’s a bit more difficult to go astray, to go off, and then if it’s a bit off, you can still enjoy it because you’re getting more of the spice kick in that. Okay. And we enjoy that because of that interplay. I said about food and wine. I used to say that retsina I was the longest nail in the coffin of Greek wine. Now I fingered seen as one of the biggest hopes because many retsinas had a bad name. Because people were getting lazy and they say, okay, no one could smell the bad wine, make bad wine, and then throw a bit of resin in a lot of resin so we can sort them out.

Natalie MacLean 00:30:38 Like some winemakers were using too much oak to cover floors, so.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:30:42 Exactly, exactly. So nowadays people craft some amazing retsinas for exquisite wines coupled with carefully selected pine resin. I mean, pine resin can be very different and can be very influential of what you’re tasting in your glass. In my mind, philosophy from Herath and Retsina are twins separated at birth. And the way all these intellectuals crave praise. Drink Fino sherry. I beg them to try some retsina and praise and understand what we have been doing for millennia.

Natalie MacLean 00:31:21 Because Sherry, the fortified wine from Spain, has a flaw yeast thing that settles on it and it gets a sort of motorized or a oxidized taste oxidized.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:31:33 Yes, yes, yes.

Natalie MacLean 00:31:34 So yeah. That’s interesting. It is okay if I can understand it through that lens, because I actually have come to enjoy Fino sherry. It took me a while, so maybe I’ll warm up to Retsina as well.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:31:43 Retsina is up.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:31:44 Next.

Natalie MacLean 00:31:46 I meant to ask you about this a little earlier, but I don’t want to miss it. So the Greek wine industry faced challenges during the country’s major financial crisis.

Natalie MacLean 00:31:55 It was around 2007 to 2010 ish. How did it benefit the wine industry or how did they improve as a result of it?

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:32:04 You know, necessity is the mother of invention, meaning that back in the 80s, a lot of producers were not having enough wine to sell, even in their own vicinity. They have been becoming overly reliant in their national market, if not local market. And overnight, that market has been dealing with huge financial problems. So they said, okay, we have to get out. We have to communicate Greek wine more. We have to make better labels. We have to come up with names that people in other countries, or even tourists coming in Greece can pronounce. Stop them. Plop plop plop plop plop plop loss. Names that we see in a lot of, Greek, wine labels. So yes, hard times create great men, and then great men create soft times. But I hope that we’re not going to see soft times. Creating soft men will keep on the hard work.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:33:03 Pushing forward, making Greek wine go really ballistically cosmopolitan.

Natalie MacLean 00:33:10 Right? Well, although soft men just need a hard, tough, strong woman, I think. But so the financial crisis really forced them to modernize labels, improve winemaking techniques. I mean, as you say, it was like adversity having to deal with that just sort of kick started the whole quality revolution in the country.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:33:29 I think that the winemaking and viticulture part was already there. We were making pretty stunning wines before the financial crisis. The thing that we were neglecting was communicating that quality, especially in a format that would be applicable to other markets in Greece. I think this is where the huge boost took place.

Natalie MacLean 00:33:53 Okay. Okay. And are you. I think I know the answer. You’re optimistic about the potential and future of Greek wines. What do you see happening five years out, ten years out from now? The discovery of new. You’ve already said the discovery of new grapes, that sort of thing. But what else do you see on the horizon for Greek wines?

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:34:12 New great varieties, even newer areas.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:34:17 More young people getting into the wine production part. If I had to bet on something about wine Greek wine, I would be betting on the increased acceptance of the quality of Greek wine in export markets. I bet that in five years, more international wine professionals are going to engulf Greek wine. More sommeliers are going to list Greek wines or more Greek wines. They’re going to see that Greek wine has a lot more to offer. Maybe not just Santorini. I think the acceptance front would be the new frontier. It would be the sort of increased dimension of Greek wine in five years time from here. I mean, five times in one production term is a tiny amount of time, five years in wine market terms is more significant. That’s why I’m betting on that.

Natalie MacLean 00:35:18 Now, that sounds exciting. This is just flown by. I’ve learned a lot. Thank you so much. About creek wise, is there anything we haven’t covered that you wanted to mention before we wrap up?

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:35:29 Lots of things. We should do that again.

Natalie MacLean 00:35:30 Yes. We’ll have to have a part two and three, because I had to cut out a lot of questions because your answers are so vivid and informative. Where can we find you and your book? Online?

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:35:42 Konstantinos Academy is my publisher. They have a fantastic e-shop get there. Otherwise, if you google WSBK, which is my wine school, you can order a copy from there. By doing that, you might be having the added benefit of having that signed by me. And if you drop me a line on the social media like Konstantinos. I just bought the book. That’s, you know, to my dear friend Alice or whatever. I can do that for sure.

Natalie MacLean 00:36:17 Excellent, excellent. Well, we’ll put the links in the show notes to your website Academy, so people can find you and your wine school and everything else that you do. Konstantinos, thank you so much for joining us today. Again, I’ve learned so much. It’s terrific. We do have to do a part two and three and four.

Natalie MacLean 00:36:34 So I will say goodbye for now. But this conversation should be continued.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:36:40 Natalie, it has been my dream being with you on this. Thank you so much for giving me the opportunity, and I hope we converted at least a few of Greek wine apostles.

Natalie MacLean 00:36:52 Oh, I’m sure, I’m sure you did. All right. Thanks for now, and we will talk to you soon.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:36:59 Thank you.

Natalie MacLean 00:37:05 Well, there you have it. I hope you enjoyed our chat with Konstantinos. Here are my takeaways. Number one, what are some of the significant contributions that Greece has made to the world of wine? As Konstantinos observes, Greece was not the first to make wine, or even the first to have a God dedicated to it. But we did a lot of things for the first time, he says. The first appellations are wine regions, the first sommeliers, wine writers and even tastings for the Greek symposia. The whole format of consuming wine was essential to making sure that these gatherings were an amazing celebration of human intellect and the bringing together of ideas.

Natalie MacLean 00:37:44 First they ate, then they relaxed. Then the eunuchs or sommeliers brought out the wine, and they talked undisturbed in a relaxed and open manner. And in that social fabric, wine was woven into the tightest stitches, no doubt loosening them as they undid their belts or whatever they tied their togas with. Number two. How does the Greek volcanic island of Santorini produce wines of stunning depth and freshness at the same time? This is paradoxical. Konstantinos explains that because Santorini is a volcanic island, it has young soil that’s coarse, so the younger the soil, the less clay it has. Clay is very fine particulate. Santorini has no clay, so the phylloxera cannot survive. The vines grow on their own original roots, but above ground it’s extremely windy, extremely hot. So the vines are trained to keep low to the ground, to capture the little humidity that’s there and to be protected from the wind. They trained these vines as baskets by weaving the vine canes. Over years, everything that is on the outside of the periphery is torn apart by the wind.

Natalie MacLean 00:38:59 But then you have the middle that survives in Santorini. They have low yields of just 8 to 12 hectolitres per hectare, which is a great thing. And every 30 to 40 years the basket gets too bulky, so it’s chopped apart and a new cane from the old root system starts a new basket. The root system, therefore, is 400 years old. For context, he adds, for centuries ago, Bordeaux was a swamp, which is true. They had to dik it reclaimed the land there. And number three. How are Greek wines shifting the perspective on what’s possible for warm climate wines? Constantino says that many people believe that a cool climate wine is superior and more complex to a warm climate one. But warm climates can produce amazing wines. Agreed. Greece has a lot of places that are cold, even more so than the chilly Loire Valley in France. Over the years, the Greeks have also selected grapes with full flavours but that produced lower levels of alcohol. In the show notes. You’ll find the full transcript of my conversation with Konstantinos, links to his website and books the video versions of these conversations on Facebook and YouTube live, and where you can order my book online now, no matter where you live.

Natalie MacLean 00:40:20 If you missed episode ten, go back and take a listen. I chat about wines for seduction, a vine romance for Valentine’s Day. I’ll share a short clip with you now to whet your appetite.

Natalie MacLean 00:40:33 The research.

Natalie MacLean 00:40:33 Firm Cyber Pulse found that 59% of women ages 21.

Natalie MacLean 00:40:39 To.

Natalie MacLean 00:40:40 39.

Natalie MacLean 00:40:41 Wish their sweethearts.

Natalie MacLean 00:40:42 Would give them wine, not candy, on Valentine’s Day. And London UK’s Sunday Times reported that wine tastings rank above.

Natalie MacLean 00:40:53 All other.

Natalie MacLean 00:40:53 Venues for finding a date. The reason wine means spending time together. In fact, I can’t think of an unromantic wine. However, when it comes to choosing the wines to celebrate Valentine’s Day, there are certain bottles that hold a special place in my heart. These are delicious wines that I can depend on year after year, and dependability and loyalty count for a lot. When it comes to both wine and love. And now here’s part two of the bonus interview with Matt cause on his podcast, we explore topics such as how do I distinguish between sexist, sexy, and sexual writing? What are some of the strategies you can use to avoid using wine as a coping mechanism? What trends are emerging related to generational differences in wine consumption? Why is it important for us to vote with our dollars when it comes to producers accused of misconduct? And what are the best wine pairings for different types of chocolate and celebrations.

Natalie MacLean 00:42:03 Again, a again, an easy question to ease off the interview. You won’t want to miss next week. When we chat with Rosemary George, who has authored 14 books on wine, including those about New Zealand, Tuscany, Chablis for the Languedoc and Roussillon. She joins us from her home in London. If you liked this episode or learned even one thing from it, please email or tell a friend about the podcast this week, especially someone you know who’d be interested in learning more about Greek wines and expanding their pleasure by discovering them. It’s easy to find my podcast. Just tell them to search for Natalie MacLean Wine on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, their favorite podcast app, or they can listen to the show on my website at Natalie MacLean. Com slash podcast. Email me if you have a tip, question, or if you’d like to win one of two copies of Konstantinos book. Or if you’ve read mine or are listening to it, I’d love to hear your thoughts about this episode. Was there anything about Greek wines that surprised you? Have you discovered a Greek wine you love? Email me at Nathalie at Natalie MacLean.

Natalie MacLean 00:43:10 Com in the show notes, you’ll also find a link to take a free online wine and food pairing class with me, called the five Wine and Food Pairing Mistakes That Can Ruin Your Dinner and How to Fix Them Forever. At Natalie MacLean. Com forward slash class. And that’s all in the show notes at Natalie MacLean. Com forward slash 323. Thank you for taking the time to join me here. I hope something great is in your glass this week. Perhaps a crisp, fresh wine from the Greek island of Santorini.

Matt Cauz 00:43:47 By the way, I always warn someone ahead of time if I’m pouring them a glass of rich terminer and they’re not used to it. I’m like, just so you know, this is going to be different. I feel you need to give a warning, which is not negative because there’s lots of good coverage to meter, but I feel I have to warn someone versus, say, a slightly oaked Chardonnay.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:44:05 Right. Right.

Natalie MacLean 00:44:07 Is it a different experience?

Matt Cauz 00:44:08 Yeah, it really is.

Matt Cauz 00:44:09 It’s almost like you have to give a little bit of a PSA, bouncing to something a little bit more serious. One thing I found of interest is that you see this more where some reviewers are using, especially women writers. Are they being forced to say, oh, this is my sassy wine club and that? And then in some ways that demeans the work, the research and the time. It makes it less serious. I was wondering your thoughts just on some of the adjectives and verbs that are used.

Natalie MacLean 00:44:37 I mean, this this.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:44:39 Gets.

Natalie MacLean 00:44:39 To something, you know. Kara McNeil, the author of The Wine Bible, talked about about being professional and serious. She commented on my podcast, Unreserved Wine Talk. She said, you know, professional women who call themselves wine chicks, wine goddesses, wine divas, wine, white dolls. She doesn’t believe she should do that as women because language can marginalize. And I thought, ouch. My signature of my email for a long time was Chief of Wine Happiness.

Natalie MacLean 00:45:10 And of course, the title of my book is wine which on fire. You know, so I asked, you know, but aren’t we making wine more accessible with self-deprecating humor, that kind of thing? And her response was very pointed. She said, no, not not unless you’re already in a position of power. And you know it’s true. We do not see these sort of same monikers for men. We don’t see harvest hunks and wine warlocks and stainless steel studs.

Matt Cauz 00:45:35 And no, we don’t.

Natalie MacLean 00:45:38 I think each person has to find their own way. And if someone is feeling like I need to use a cliche in their own power, using that language as a woman or as someone else, go for it. But just realize that language has power. words can marginalize, but I also think words can reclaim power. You know, for me, a wine witch or a witch is a woman who has walked through the dumpster fires of life and come out the other side stronger, wiser, fiercer.

Natalie MacLean 00:46:16 I like the word witch, and that’s why I use it.

Matt Cauz 00:46:20 Yeah, it applies and actually use it very well throughout the book. I also would not listen to stainless steel studs because I like a little oak, or I’m more concrete in my aging. I, you know, I don’t need the stainless steel. By the way, that’s such a cheesy wine joke. Oh, sexist versus sexy reviews. I was wondering if you could expand on that. That was one of the things I picked in the book.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:46:45 Yeah.

Natalie MacLean 00:46:45 So I write about this in detail in wine, which on fire. I do think there is a difference between sexy, sexy and sensual writing three categories. The first, sexist, I think, subjugate someone as purely a sexual object, and the latter two sexy and sensual. Talk about personal desire without doing that. And I think the same standards should apply to both men and women and non-binary people, because I think we’re actually less comfortable with women expressing their sexuality, which I do in this book.

Natalie MacLean 00:47:23 You know, that’s why we get the labels of cougar. If you’re a woman of a certain age and you still express sexual desire, you know you’re a predator. You’re a cougar looking for younger men. Right. I also had to come round to this in the book as well, that, you know, when I’m joking about the UPS delivery guys and, you know, his phone number is one 800 UPS pickups or something, and wondering if he wants to come in and taste with me. I’m using a double standard when I don’t want my own body sexualised, and that doesn’t mean get rid of all humor, but think about the differences between sexist, sexy, and sensual writing. Also, I think when I started talking about men that way, it belied my own insecurity as I was looking for love again, wondering if I could find it after being 20 years off the market. It’s a very scary thing to be dating at that time. I’m almost five foot ten. So anyway, I needed to embrace my own body as it was and, and respect others.

Matt Cauz 00:48:29 And then later trying to deal with zero effort men. Which is so funny that.

Natalie MacLean 00:48:35 DMs zero effort men. Yeah. If you’re interested again, look me up. Yeah. It’s like what?

Matt Cauz 00:48:42 Anyway, when I read that part, I have friends that are single and they tell me all the time and I had the same thought of like, wow, men are lazy. Like I remember like when I was younger in the 90s, you know, I was like, we weren’t lazy. And anyway.

Natalie MacLean 00:48:56 Well, it does key in on something else in the book. You know, I’m trying all the dating apps, and of course, I use an anonymous handle because I was on television at the time, single and happy on one of the dating apps, not Tinder, but I think it was Match.com or something. And, I didn’t fill out the whatever, 75 questions I didn’t even put a profile photo on. But the next day I woke up to like 15 messages in my inbox. He checked you out, so it was like, you know, Hot Rod and Jim, 67, all the rest of them.

Natalie MacLean 00:49:25 I thought, what on earth do we have in common? I guess we’re both lazy, in love. We just don’t want to work for it.

Matt Cauz 00:49:32 Oh my God. When I read that part of my I’m like, I turned to my girlfriend Amy. I’m like, we can’t break up because I’m bad enough with technology.

Natalie MacLean 00:49:40 Don’t break out.

Natalie MacLean 00:49:41 Value what you.

Natalie MacLean 00:49:42 Have.

Matt Cauz 00:49:42 Oh hell yeah. All right. So now we’re going to bounce to Sirius. How devastating was that moment when your now ex-husband, you know, basically expressed, I want a divorce. I mean, I can’t even imagine how devastating just your entire worldview must have shifted in a moment.

Natalie MacLean 00:50:00 It did. It did. We met in university. We’d been together for 20 years. At that time, we had a 14 year old son. We’d built a life together. My assumption again, wrong was that, you know, after 20 years, you settle into contented companionship. You’re not going to have the hot, lusty relationship you did at the beginning.

Natalie MacLean 00:50:21 But I was wrong about that, too. And so that caught me off guard. it was a it was a blend of naivete, but also, again, perfectionism, competitiveness. My mom, who raised me as a single mother, stayed married about two years. So I thought I was, you know, had secret pride that I had lasted 20 years. I had figured it out. I was smart enough to stay together. Wrong. So wrong. You know. You figure? Well, I guess it’s worked out until it hasn’t. So, I mean, it just felt like my world crumbling. And so that’s why I called the events in this book my no good, terrible, very bad vintage. Because it starts off with my husband a 20 years asking for a divorce in January. And then it ends with this online social media mobbing in December. So and in between, all the rest of life unfolds. So yeah, it was not a good way to start that year. It just it loosens your foundations of everything and then you start.

Natalie MacLean 00:51:26 If you’re an anxious person like I can be, you thought and you think, where am I going to live? What’s going to happen to our son? All the things.

Matt Cauz 00:51:34 Yeah. And then trying to protect your son from it and trying to shield him from that as well. And then, you know, the impact that can have in terms of consumption. And it’s one of the things I wanted to talk to you about, about the idea of drinking too much. I’m actually going to. I’m going to use you for a second. I’m going to be on the couch and you’re going to be the psychiatrist. I find for me, when I drink too much wine, it’s always about two things. It’s about a love of the wine. It’s never about I want to get drunk. It’s like this wine is fascinating. And this older vintage. And it’s almost as curiosity thing. And then the other side is when you put the bottle away, then the party is over and you got to go to bed.

Matt Cauz 00:52:16 And sometimes I’m like, I just, I don’t want the party to end. I’m having I’m enjoying whatever that is. So it’s for me, it’s always been those two things about why it’s like, okay, Matt, you had two glasses, too many. And I’m wondering just your thoughts.

Natalie MacLean 00:52:30 Absolutely. So it’s something that I need to monitor to this day. I mean, I didn’t mean for wine, which I’m far to be a self-help book, but it’s turned into that in the way that some people use it and read it, because I have various tips as a wine professional. How did I cut back? But I hear you, Matt, in terms of the first glass of a wonderful glass of wine, is so, you know, full of sensual pleasure, and it’s lighting up all your dendrites and it’s a full body experience. There’s a little touch of the buzz, but there’s the smell and what it’s. Maybe you’re remembering something where you were before. Maybe when you had that wine.

Natalie MacLean 00:53:11 It’s just a full, full, full body experience, which is lovely. And the second glass, then you’re loosening your inhibitions and you feel even better. And so there is a natural tendency to say, well, I want more of that. I want more pleasure, more relaxation, more of this sensuality. It’s very easy to go down that rabbit hole of drinking too much, as opposed to, I mean, most of us who review wines don’t have a shooter glass of Pinot and knocking it back. No, we’re all about the sensuality. And then we get. Want more of it? So I understand that completely. And that’s why, you know, one of my tips in my book is, you know, where I used to pre drink before we went to a restaurant, which is nonsense. There’s no such thing as pre drinking. It’s drinking. I would have a glass of wine to take the edge off because I’m an introvert. But I’d always be a glass ahead of everybody. Now I don’t.

Natalie MacLean 00:54:10 I love camomile tea, camomile camomile tea. And I have that before I go out, because I find it very calming because I got to address the issues and then I have a pre-game plan. I’m going to have two maximum three glasses and not the nine ounce ones. But so there’s those things that you almost have to think ahead while you have your full faculties, because once you get into it, oh three tastes like four, four tastes like five, you’re gone. So absolutely, I hear you on that. There were other techniques. Happy to share, but I totally empathize with where you’re at on that.

Matt Cauz 00:54:48 Yeah, it’s funny, I never have been drunk when I’ve been angry or sad. It’s only when I’ve been joyful. Happy, usually in a place of just love and never been with beer. And I don’t like hearts. I don’t like spirits. It’s only with wine. Wine is the only one that does that.

Natalie MacLean 00:55:05 Absolutely. Now, that said, I should say that, you know, when this divorce was unfolding at the beginning of the year, I did start leaning on wine to self-medicate.

Natalie MacLean 00:55:14 I was the first time in 14 years of being surrounded by wine that I used it in that way, because it was there, it was available. And it, you know, it dulled the raw, but not the whimper. And so one of the things, another thing I have in the book is what was the thought just before the thought that said, I need a drink. And is it about frustration, sadness, anger, anything like that? And can you just take a five second circuit breaker. Literally put your hand on your heart. Feel your body back as you’re all in your head. Anxious. And change your energy if you can. Go for a five minute walk or whatever works for you. Bath.

Matt Cauz 00:55:53 Show whatever your relationship with wine when it comes to your son about normalizing it with him, not making it a big deal. I think, you know, sometimes some in some households they put almost too much energy on alcohol. And I’m wondering how you dealt with it.

Natalie MacLean 00:56:08 Well, I did a very sneaky thing when he was three and he said, what’s that? And was mommy’s wine, mommy’s little helper.

Natalie MacLean 00:56:16 I used to have the lol memes and I said, do you want to taste? Because I, my former husband and I talked about not making it taboo, so it was a very dry bone dry. I think it was Cabernet Sauvignon with lots of tannin, poor thing. And he drank it and went, he spit it out. That’s total, you know, not total. But he just went, yeah, I made sure that it was. I wasn’t giving him like an ice wine and having him think, oh, liquid candy. But to this day he doesn’t drink. He is an adult who can drink and he doesn’t. So we’ve never made it taboo, but he chooses not to. And I’ve talked to some other wine writers and their their adult children are like that. But it might be just Gen Z as well as drinking less than Gen X, so that could be it too.

Matt Cauz 00:57:10 Oh, that’s that’s interesting. Wasn’t even going to go go down there. What have you noticed in terms of just the generations when it comes to their habits with wine?

Natalie MacLean 00:57:19 Well, we know that Gen Z is drinking much less than their parents, who tend to be Gen Xers like myself.

Natalie MacLean 00:57:26 All the trends of sober, curious, sober October. Dry January. Dry July. They’re participating in those movements in much greater numbers than Gen X ever did. And I don’t know if it’s that natural separation from your parents. We’re not going to do what they did. I don’t know if it’s because they have more choices. You think? Cannabis in different formats. Ketamine. You know, adaptogen drinks that can relax. All kinds of things are available to them. Mushrooms. So I don’t know if it’s a confluence of things or economics. Wine tends not to be affordable for younger people. I mean, sure, there’s there’s cheaper wines available there, but they have so many more choices. But economically, they’re not as well off as we were at their age. They’re not going out to dinner as much. They’re not experimenting, perhaps with wine as much. These are all just hypotheses, so not sure, but I think it’s a mixture of those factors.

Matt Cauz 00:58:27 Yeah, I would imagine all that things as part of that stew.

Matt Cauz 00:58:31 I don’t know why I wrote down this line, but maybe it’s because I’ve done the same thing you say by glass three. I was watching Tina Fey videos. Yes. What is it about a wine buzz that sends you to your favorite TV shows? I feel Veep and 30 Rock have been watched a lot. Thanks to Canadian Pinot.

Natalie MacLean 00:58:52 Yeah.

Natalie MacLean 00:58:52 And on repeat. Doesn’t matter.

Matt Cauz 00:58:54 Yeah, it doesn’t matter.

Natalie MacLean 00:58:55 You’re feeling so good and joyous. And, you know, alcohol is a relaxant and then a depressant. You just want more of that fun feeling. And, you know, pairing wine and these videos was just some of the most fun I had post-divorce, which is kind of sad. Sad comment. But yeah, absolutely. I would just because, you know, just at first, sometimes I would use wine too, as a reward for working an hour longer. If I can work an hour longer, I can have a glass of wine glass. Two I might still be working glass three though.

Natalie MacLean 00:59:32 I was like, no focus. Let’s just turn on the Tina Fey cat videos. Whatever. so yeah.

Matt Cauz 00:59:41 No. It’s true. This one I remember I was dealing with, a couple years ago, and it was about Norm Hardy.

Natalie MacLean 00:59:50 yes.

Matt Cauz 00:59:51 And it was about, do I buy the wines? Because the one side is, you know, everything that you know that he did that he was accused of. That there didn’t seem to be a ton of apologies on the other side. A winery is not just one person, it is the other winemakers, assistant winemakers, administration. It is the the grape growers, the great pickers who come maybe every year to work those lands in Prince Edward County. You know, like the other day at the Lcbo, I saw one of his chinos. I was 30% off. I’m like, oh, I mean, I have morality, but that is 30% off for a good vintage. I didn’t buy the wine. I also, I myself don’t judge someone if they do, But it’s one thing I’ve definitely ping pong back and forth from a morality standpoint.

Natalie MacLean 01:00:41 Yeah.

Natalie MacLean 01:00:41 That’s a tough one. So just for those who may not be familiar with Norman Hardy, quick recap. So despite 21 victims coming forward to report a wide ranging pattern of unwanted sexual contact, groping, lewd comments and requests for sex, despite Hardy’s own admission that many of the allegations were true. He posted that on his website. He posted it after The Globe and Mail had contacted him twice, if I understand correctly. At first he denied it, but on the second, when they were going to publication, no charges were ever filed. And according to the Globe Mail, his victims received no amends. And you know, as I say, in wine, which on fire. I had hoped that Hardy would set up a fund for women in the industry, or donate a portion of the proceeds from his wines to a similar cause. And I know that, yes, that would bring more attention to the issue and to what he had done. But I think it also could have been one of the greatest turnaround stories in our industry.

Natalie MacLean 01:01:45 Norm Hardy enjoyed a cult like following in the industry and using his platform. His leadership on this issue could have prompted so many positive discussions and changes in the industry. So on a much larger scale, not equating the two, but Western countries impose economic sanctions on regimes that violate the human rights of their own citizens, even though innocent citizens will suffer. And it’s usually impossible, sadly, to separate the two and achieve change. At the time I contacted the Prince Edward County Wine Council to offer my assistance. They were helping women at Hardys Winery to find counseling and positions at other wineries. So net net, I think we vote with our dollars. And each of us has a choice to make every day. And each choice we make, each purchase we make, is also a vote for who we want to be.

Matt Cauz 01:02:43 Standers. Clawson. Chase. Rose. Hall. I mean, there’s tons of great people anymore. Yeah, so much choice, you know? Yeah. This has been like this, I think might have been the most serious interview I’ve done.

Matt Cauz 01:02:55 I mean, before we end, we.

Natalie MacLean 01:02:56 Got for being so down.

Matt Cauz 01:02:58 No no no no no. You’re answering all the questions. I’m the one asking them. All right, we’ll do some fun stuff. I don’t believe you can pair wine with chocolate unless it is port. Can you correct me from this very rigid feeling that I have?

Natalie MacLean 01:03:15 Wow. That’s a good way to bookend this. Back to the things that really matter. I agree with you. Port is the best pairing for chocolate. Chocolate. Okay. You have to differentiate between types of chocolate. Milk chocolate is toughest because it has the least cacao and the most sugar that’s hardest on wine. Dark chocolate is easier because of that same factor. White chocolate purists don’t think it is chocolate. It has no cacao. It’s very sugary. And then you’ve got chocolate with bridging ingredients like walnuts. And I don’t know what else is in there these days. Even they’ve got spicy hot chocolates and probably bacon chocolate. Those are easier to match your bridging ingredient, just as if you had bacon in a salad.

Natalie MacLean 01:04:00 Port is always easier. Sweet. You know, the rule of thumb is the wine should be sweeter than the dessert, or the wine will taste bitter by comparison. Port fortified wine from Portugal. It’s got higher alcohol and sugar, so it’s going to go best with just about any of those types of chocolate. But of course dark chocolate would be the easiest one. Then you can get into other, you know, you’ve got Daniels, which is south of France. Grenache. Sweet. You’ve got Australian stickies, red Shiraz. Sometimes sweet ice wine I think is really tough unless you’re talking about caramel toffee type thing going on with chocolate. Some people get into like a full bodied dry amarone, which of course has gone through. The grapes have been desiccated, dried in the mats in Veneto, Italy, and therefore it’s more powerful, more alcoholic. And alcohol gives us the perception of sweetness. Those are tough. I would go as far as dark chocolate. Really dark, like 80% cacao. I think after that, to each his own.

Natalie MacLean 01:05:03 There is a risk of your wine really tasting bitter.

Matt Cauz 01:05:08 A wine drinker whose favorite wine is Napa Cabernet Sauvignon. And they want to try something different. Different region, different country, different grape, but something that is close. What would Natalie MacLean recommend as they go on that journey?

Natalie MacLean 01:05:22 I actually did this segment once on CTV, if this then that. The way Amazon recommends books. If you liked this book, then that one. So look for full bodied red snap, a Cabernet. Very generous, very juicy. Maybe an Argentine Malbec. That might work. Maybe you want to do a Cabernet from another region like Chile. But we’re probably talking New World as opposed to going. I mean, you could try Bordeaux just to see the differences, but that’s going to be a very different expression of Cabernet and in a blend. So I encourage people to do this when they walk into their liquor store. Find the product consultant or the knowledgeable person and say, look, I like this, but I want to try something different and get their recommendations as well.

Natalie MacLean 01:06:03 A Rhone Valley Red would be an interesting difference. It’s totally different. Grape Syrah, usually at a blend. That might be a nice thing to change it up with.

Matt Cauz 01:06:13 Yeah, if you got the money, if you got a little less money back, if you got a little less money than that, find a, you know, a good coat to run.

Natalie MacLean 01:06:21 Absolutely.

Matt Cauz 01:06:22 Christmas is coming. What are some of the things that you would tell people to make sure you have available for dinner.

Natalie MacLean 01:06:29 Well, you could buy my book and talk about it over dinner. Just kidding. You could do a book and bottle set.

Matt Cauz 01:06:35 Oh, I like it. Wine. Which? On fire. Available now, wherever quality books are sold.

Natalie MacLean 01:06:40 Yes. Rising from the ashes of divorce. Defamation, drinking too much. Brought to you by all the dismal deeds. But there is humor. This isn’t about an angry woman with cats. So wine wise, the universal wines, the switch hitter wines that’ll please all palates go with turkey are Pinot Noir and Riesling.

Natalie MacLean 01:06:57 Of course, we do them so well in Canada, not just in Ontario, but BC, Nova Scotia as well. I think those are great to have, I think. Treat wines. Now’s the time to splurge if you want trend market wise that’s happening. That I think is a good thing. Drink less but better. I think you should also have some alcohol free wines or low alcohol wines. I am a proponent of them, even though some people regard alcohol free wines as not wine at all. There are a number of number of respected producers that make wine with alcohol and now do the same thing with alcohol free. They’re making it all the way to alcohol based wines, and then they remove the alcohol, which I think is the best way to make alcohol free wines because they have the taste and so on. Now, if you line them up, you will notice that they don’t have alcohol. But if you want to be a responsible host or if you want to pace yourself over the holidays because it is when we indulge quite a bit, make sure they’re on hand.

Matt Cauz 01:07:53 And last question how are you doing now?

Natalie MacLean 01:07:55 I’m doing great. This has been a great conversation overall. I’m doing well. Like I don’t wish suffering on anyone. I’m a former Catholic, so I always believe suffering is this purifying, make you stronger thing. But having gone through what I went through, I am who I am because of it and I don’t regret that at all. Would I have made different decisions? Absolutely. There are other ways to learn things in life, but I’m at a place now in my career and as a person that I’m pretty content. I have lots of other things to learn. I have lots of things I still want to do, but I’m I can do them now from a place of greater peace. Wrestling with my own demons of perfectionism and competitiveness, I compare them to two snakes that coil. One’s a cobra that will squeeze the joy of life out of you. The other is a boa constrictor. Know that I got that backwards that will bite you with its venom of envy.

Natalie MacLean 01:08:52 So I’m dealing with those. And yeah, I feel like I’m in a good place. Thanks for asking, Matt.

Matt Cauz 01:08:58 Yeah. What’s the website? People want to go find out more about you and they want to find the reviews. Where do they go?

Natalie MacLean 01:09:04 Sure. You can go to Natalie MacLean. Com. You can also go to wine which on fire. Com. That’s just going to reroute you over to my website if you’re having trouble spelling. Natalie MacLean. Com Natalie MacLean. Com or wine on fire. Com. And on that you’ll find a free reader’s guide for the book, which people have been using because it gives you tips on how to organise an informal wine tasting. Questions not just about the book, but how do you feel about your wine consumption? Marketing of wine to women versus men. There’s all kinds of issues in there that can spark a discussion, not just for book clubs or wine groups, but couples have read it and read the book, and then use the guide to talk about the issues between them or friends or mother daughter, all the other combos.

Matt Cauz 01:09:53 Natalie, really appreciate this has been a great conversation. Wide ranging, serious fun, very honest. And again the book wine which on fire go grab it because it is dense, just so many different things you tackle. I really appreciate you taking the time.

Natalie MacLean 01:10:08 Thank you Matt. I’ve really enjoyed this conversation. It’s allowed me to every this has also been therapy for me. Thank you. To sort of consolidate my thoughts now, even now one year out from the book being published. So I appreciate this opportunity. And although the book is dense, it’s short so you can get through it quickly. You just have to add that.

Matt Cauz 01:10:28 Yeah, no, it’s true, I say dense, but yeah, it’s it’s not even 300 pages. Thanks everyone for listening to the mat talks wanted stuff with interesting people podcast. Remember you can find me on iTunes on Apple and wherever quality podcasts are sold. Thank you.

Matt Cauz 01:10:43 Thank you.

Natalie MacLean 01:10:50 You don’t want to miss.

Matt Cauz 01:10:51 One juicy episode of this podcast, especially the secret full bodied bonus episodes that I don’t announce on social media.

Matt Cauz 01:10:59 So subscribe for free now at Natalie MacLean. Com forward slash subscribe. Meet me here next week. Cheers.

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