Introduction
Are vegan wines better for our health? What three aspects of a wine determine whether it’s vegan or not? How can you identify whether or not a wine is vegan by looking at the label?
In this episode of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, I’m chatting with Jennifer Huether and Priya Rao, authors of The Social Herbivore: Perfect Pairings For Plant-Based Cuisine.
You can find the wines we discussed here.
Giveaway
One of you is going to win a copy of Priya Rao & Jennifer Huether’s terrific book, The Social Herbivore: Perfect Pairings For Plant-Based Cuisine – the first book ever on plant-based food and wine matching.
How to Win
To qualify, all you have to do is email me at [email protected] and let me know that you’ve posted a review of the podcast.
It takes less than 30 seconds: On your phone, scroll to the bottom here, where the reviews are, and click on “Tap to Rate.”
After that, scroll down a tiny bit more and click on “Write a Review.” That’s it!
I’ll choose one person randomly from those who contact me.
Good luck!
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Join the live-stream video of this conversation on Wednesday at 7 pm eastern on Instagram Live Video, Facebook Live Video or YouTube Live Video.
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Highlights
- How did Priya end up tasting an 1812 Madeira, and what was that experience like?
- Which Burgundy wine was responsible for Jennifer’s most memorable wine moment from her career so far?
- What’s behind the increasing popularity of vegan foods and wines over the past four or five years?
- How has the plant-based movement influenced the wine industry’s interest in producing vegan wine?
- What are the three aspects of wine which determine whether it’s considered vegan?
- How are animals and animal products used in winemaking?
- What animal-free alternatives are used by vegan winemakers?
- How do vegetarian and vegan diets differ?
- Are there official symbols on a wine label that indicate whether it’s vegan?
- Is there a connection between vegan wines and organic or biodynamic wines?
- Are vegan wines better for our health?
- Does fermentation reduce the effect of potentially harmful pesticides used in vineyards?
- Why did Priya transition into a vegan lifestyle?
- How did creating a seminar about pairing vegan food with wine end up changing Jennifer’s diet?
- What’s the difference between a plant-based diet and being vegan?
- What sparked the idea for writing The Social Herbivore?
- How does the book approach wine pairings?
- Which wines have the most versatility when paired with vegan dishes?
Key Takeaways
- Are vegan wines better for our health? No they’re not, and drinking too much vegan wine will still have the same deleterious impact on our health. Vegan simply means the absence of animal products used in making the wine.
- What three aspects of a wine determine whether it’s vegan or not? There are several ways based on what happens in the vineyard (no animal labour), what happens during the winemaking process (fining agents, additives) and then what happens in the packaging process (materials used for the paper, cork etc). Depending on how picky you are about how vegan the wine is, you may gravitate towards certain wineries that are vegan in all three aspects.
- How can you identify whether or not a wine is vegan by looking at the label? There are various certifications and official symbols on a wine label but no internationally recognized body for vegan wines. Terms like unfined and unfiltered are clues, though not a guarantee.
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About Priya Rao
A foodie and wine lover, Priya switched to a vegetarian diet in 1995 and then to a vegan one in 2011. An entertainer since childhood, she’s had a lot of time to think about how to translate her love of hosting and cooking for people from meat and potatoes to vino and veggies.
Priya had previously hosted vegan food and wine events in Toronto as part of the duo A Vine Romance, appearing on Breakfast Television as a guest wine expert on 640AM and Rogers Daytime, and writing articles for Prince Edward County’s Grapevine Magazine, Restaurants Canada and NatalieMaclean.com. She also created and co-hosted the tv show, THE DRINK, for Bell FIBE TV1. She is currently a contributor for Vineroutes.com on all things vegan food & wine.
Priya has shared the joys of vegan food and wine at festivals such as Plant-Based Expo in NYC, Montreal Vegan Festival and the Puerto Rico Vegan Festival. She has hosted dinners at private clubs and golf clubs and has been MC for vegan events around the city. These days, Priya is most often found with a glass of wine in hand, entertaining guests at her vegan vacation home, Terra, in Ontario.
About Jennifer Huether
Jennifer’s love affair and studies in wine started in her early twenties with taking an interest course at George Brown college. From there, she immediately leapt into the Sommelier Certification from ISG graduating top of class, then Diploma of Wine from WSET, followed by the Advanced Sommelier passing in 2005 and finally the Master Sommelier Exams-becoming Canada’s first female Master Sommelier in 2011 graduating in Dallas, Texas. Jennifer is one of thirty women Master Sommeliers in the world.
Her restaurant industry experience is vast, starting off in Toronto Restaurants is where she found wine. Jennifer has also worked for Canadian-owned Cliff Lede Vineyards based in Napa Valley, and for 7 years ran one of Canada’s top wine programs at MLSE in Toronto, spanning over 6 restaurants and overseeing a multi-million dollar beverage program, while mentoring the properties of 11 sommeliers. Jennifer most recently was employed with California-based Jackson Family Wines, representing their brands throughout Canada. Jennifer is co-founder of @socialherbivore together with Priya Rao and published the first book ever on plant-based food & wine matching.
After winning the Ontario Sommelier Competition in 2006, Jennifer decided to invest her energy heavily in the execution of the competitions from 2008 to 2019. Jennifer, together with Alex Evans, made it their mission to hold the Ontario & Canadian ASI Competitions to the highest level of quality, integrity and standards, therefore giving the best possible experience to the candidates. She sat for several years on the board of directors of CAPS Ontario and focused her energy into building competitions and the content for them. She is also a continually active teacher with the Court of Masters, and mentors several Advanced and Master Sommelier Candidates throughout Canada and teaches with WSET. Jennifer has sat on the Board of Directors for Femmes du Vin as the Education Chair, executing seminars to enhance the lives of all women in wine and raise money for women in wine and mentors at the non-profit VinEquity.
Jennifer’s latest adventure is with Southern Glazers Wine & Spirits in Las Vegas, where she is very much enjoying the food scene and the winter weather.
Resources
- Connect with Jennifer Huether & Priya Rao
- Diary of a Book Launch: An Insider Peek from Idea to Publication
- Wine Witch on Fire Free Companion Guide for Book Clubs
- My Books:
- Unreserved Wine Talk | Episode 9: Are Vegan & Vegetarian Wines Better for You? Ezra Cipes, Summerhill Winery, BC, Has Answers
- My new class The 5 Wine & Food Pairing Mistakes That Can Ruin Your Dinner And How To Fix Them Forever
Tag Me on Social
Tag me on social media if you enjoyed the episode:
- @nataliemaclean and @natdecants on Facebook
- @nataliemaclean on Twitter
- @nataliemacleanwine on Instagram
- @nataliemaclean on LinkedIn
- Email Me at [email protected]
Thirsty for more?
- Sign up for my free online wine video class where I’ll walk you through The 5 Wine & Food Pairing Mistakes That Can Ruin Your Dinner (and how to fix them forever!)
- You’ll find my books here, including Unquenchable: A Tipsy Quest for the World’s Best Bargain Wines and Red, White and Drunk All Over: A Wine-Soaked Journey from Grape to Glass.
- The new audio edition of Red, White and Drunk All Over: A Wine-Soaked Journey from Grape to Glass is now available on Amazon.ca, Amazon.com and other country-specific Amazon sites; iTunes.ca, iTunes.com and other country-specific iTunes sites; Audible.ca and Audible.com.
Transcript
Priya Rao (00:00:00) – The interest and the rate of innovation in plant based foods has just skyrocketed. Now, every grocery store has a section of plant based in different apartments. Plant based is not just for vegans anymore, it’s for anybody who wants to just try to incorporate a few more plants on their plates.
Natalie MacLean (00:00:19) – Now, Jen, what is a vegan wine?
Jennifer Huether (00:00:22) – You kind of divide it into what happens in the land itself, what happens in the winemaking process, and then what happens in the packaging process. And depending on how picky you are about how vegan the wine is, you may gravitate towards certain wineries that are in all three segments really focused on being 100% vegan.
Natalie MacLean (00:00:58) – Do you have a thirst to learn about wine? Do you love stories about wonderfully obsessive people, hauntingly beautiful places, and amusingly awkward social situations? Well, that’s the blend here on the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast. I’m your host, Natalie MacLean, and each week I share with you unfiltered conversations with celebrities in the wine world, as well as confessions from my own tipsy journey as I write my third book on this subject. I’m so glad you’re here. Now pass me that bottle, please, and let’s get started.
Welcome to episode 275. Are vegan wine’s better for your health? What three aspects of a wine determine whether or not it’s vegan? And how can you identify whether or not a wine is vegan by looking at the bottle label? In today’s episode, you’ll hear the stories and tips that answer those questions in our chat with Priya Rio and Jennifer Huether, who have together published the first ever plant based food and wine matching book. One of you is going to win a copy of this beautiful book with its recipes, full colour photographs of mouthwatering dishes, and terrific wine pairings. It’s called The Social Herbivore. All you have to do is email me at [email protected] and let me know you’d like to win a copy. I’ll choose one person randomly from those who contact me.
Speaking of winning books, I’m happy to announce that the winner of Amanda Barnes book on South American wines is Agnieszka Richter from Blind Channel, British Columbia, and the winner of Keith Granger’s book on wine faults and flaws is Melanie Estelle, who lives in New Hampshire.
If you haven’t won a book yet, now’s your chance and keep listening, as my goal is to offer lots more books and other prizes with every episode. If I could, everyone would win a set of steak knives and a new car.
All right, speaking of books and metaphoric knives, have you read Wine Witch on Fire: Rising from the Ashes of Divorce, Defamation and Drinking Too Much? If yes, then have you bought a copy for a friend? If you’d like to support this podcast that I do for you on a volunteer basis to ensure it continues, please order it from any online book retailer no matter where you live. It usually arrives in a day or two. And of course, the e-book is instant. And it’s a fast read. Every little bit helps spread the message in this book of hope, justice and resilience. You can send a copy directly to a friend or family member and make their day when a gift arrives in the mail, rather than another bill. I’ll put a link in the show notes to all the retailers worldwide at natalie maclean.com/275.
If you’ve read the book or are reading it, I’d love to hear from you and natalie@nataliemacLean. com. Okay, on with the show.
Natalie MacLean – Priya Rao. Am I pronouncing that correctly? The last name Priya Rao.
Priya Rao (00:04:11) – It can be Rao. It can be Rao.
Natalie MacLean (00:04:14) – Okay. Priya Rao has hosted many vegan food and wine events as well as appearing on Breakfast Television. 640AM Radio and Rogers Daytime TV. She also writes for Vine Routes, Grapevine Magazine, Restaurants Canada and NatalieMacLean.com. Thank you for your contribution and your service. Priya has also created and co-hosted the TV show The Drink for Bell Five TV. She is a popular presenter at food and wine festivals and events, as well as hosting dinners at private clubs and golf clubs. She is the co-founder of at Social Herbivore with Jennifer Huether, and together they published the plant based food and wine matching book.
Jennifer Huether became Canada’s first female Master Sommelier in 2011, and is one of only 30 women Master Sommeliers in the world. She has been an active member on the board of directors for both the Canadian Association of Professional Sommeliers and the Femme du Vin to support women in wine. Jennifer has worked at many top tier restaurants, including directing the multimillion dollar beverage program at MLSE in Toronto, a group of more than six restaurants with 11 sommeliers whom she mentored. She has also represented leading California based wine brands such as Cliff Lede Vineyards and the Jackson Family Wines. Currently, she works with Southern Glazer’s Wine and Spirits in Las Vegas, where we are all jealous of her so-called winter weather. Jennifer. Priya, welcome. We’re so glad to have you here with us.
Jennifer Huether (00:05:46) – Thank you for having us.
Natalie MacLean (00:05:47) – All right. So, yeah, I should have mentioned Priya’s logging in from Toronto of course. Jen is logging in from Vegas, so we have a three way conversation this time. It’s going to be lots of fun. All right, before we dive into your wine careers, ladies, I’d like to ask each of you to tell us about one memorable wine moment.
Natalie MacLean (00:06:06) – It could have been related to personally or professional wine situation. Priya, do you want to kick it off?
Priya Rao (00:06:13) – A memorable wine moment. There have been so many. I mean, I haven’t tasted as many grand wines as Jen may have, but I did once get to go to a holiday tasting at Castle Loma here, which was just gorgeous. I mean, in the castle and they had a Madeira from 1812 and it was fantastic. And to me that was just everything that I love about wine. I’m not a som, I’m just a casual drinker. But it was tasting history a moment in time in a bottle and it just blew my mind. It was fantastic.
Natalie MacLean (00:06:47) – Still, it was still holding up after 1812. Wow. Oh my goodness. That’s when Canada and the US I think had some disputes. That’s a long time ago. Wow.
Priya Rao (00:06:57) – A long time ago.
Natalie MacLean (00:06:58) – Yes. Jennifer, do you have a memorable moment?
Jennifer Huether (00:07:02) – I have several memorable moments for sure with wine, but I think probably the most special would be when I was in Burgundy about five years ago, and I had the opportunity to visit Domaine Romanée- Conti, which is a huge privilege, and they pull out a mystery bottle.
Natalie MacLean (00:07:23) – Top Burgundies and Pinot Noir in the wine in the world, right?
Jennifer Huether (00:07:28) – Exactly. So these are the top wines of the world, and not many people get to go and look behind the curtain, if you will. So it was a real privilege. But the fun part was that they pulled out a wine and they didn’t tell us what it was. And it was absolutely delicious. Very dark gold. It turned out to be an old Chardonnay. It was a 1970 Montrachet, and just like Priya’s Madeira, it was still holding up, which was absolutely shocking after decades and decades for white wine.
Natalie MacLean (00:07:57) – Yeah, history in a bottle. That is the special thing about wine. I mean, I used to market packaged food goods at Procter and Gamble, like Crisco and Duncan Hines, but there’s nothing with more soul than wine. I mean, it is bottled history. And those bottles. By the way, for those who may not know at Domaine Romanée- Conti or is the cool kids say DRC can go for thousands of dollars per bottle. So it was quite a special tasting that you had there, Jennifer. All right.
Priya Rao (00:08:25) – Tough life being a Master Somm.
Natalie MacLean (00:08:26) – I know. All this winter weather, historic bottles, trips to Burgundy. Okay, let’s get into our topic because there’s just so much to discuss when it comes to plant based food and wine pairing. Can either of you give me some stats or other pointers that really show the increase in interest and popularity of vegan foods and vegan wines over the past 4 or 5 years?
Priya Rao (00:08:55) – I mean, I can talk on the food side absolutely, but I’m going to leave all the wine stats and general knowledge to Jen because she’s the expert. So on the food side, I mean, The Economist back in 2019 declared that year to be the year of the vegan. And ever since then, throughout lockdown and Covid and all of that, the interest and the rate of innovation in plant based foods has just skyrocketed. It’s just incredible the number of celebrities that are investing in different plant based faux meats and others and food chains and such. So you can tell by just going to the grocery store. Now every grocery store has a section of plant based almost in different departments, in the freezer department, in the fridge department, in the health department. So it really has just exploded because plant based is not just for vegans anymore. It’s for anybody who wants to just try to incorporate a few more plants on their plates.
Natalie MacLean (00:09:50) – And yeah, I agree with you wholeheartedly, Priya. And I mean, obviously there’s the health factors there. Anything else that you see driving this?
Priya Rao (00:09:58) – Yeah, absolutely. I would say that climate change is a huge one. Health absolutely, because when we talk about things like vegan cheese, for example, or non-dairy milks, they’re not just because there are vegans who are interested in that. It’s because there’s so many people who suffer from lactose intolerance and, you know, have other issues with dairy products. So the health is one driving factor. Climate change is absolutely another. One great example, I would say, is the amount of land we use to grow, for example, soybeans, not for human consumption, but for cattle consumption.
For those cattle to then become beef is astronomical, and the methane gas produced by those cattle is also really, really polluting. It’s one of the largest pollutants. If we didn’t have to feed the cows that end up on plates, we have more than enough land to feed the entire world. But because, you know, some places in the world have more money to have certain things in their diets. It’s really driving sort of the inequities in food around the world.
And the other thing I would say is, of course, the animals. A lot of people do it for the animals because they don’t like to see the suffering. They don’t like to hear about all the undercover things that happen on factory farms. And oftentimes those are repeated offenses that just don’t get solved. So there’s a number of factors driving people towards complaints.
Natalie MacLean (00:11:21) – Those are interesting points. Really, really good. And Jennifer, what are you seeing on the wine side of things. Why do you think there’s a rise now? There’ll be some similar reasons here, but is there anything unique in terms of what’s driving the interest in vegan wines?
Jennifer Huether (00:11:35) – Honestly, I think it’s piggybacking on this plant based movement. And so really that was what was leading the way. When you think about vegan or vegetarian 40 years ago, it was just kind of like, you know, the Birkenstock granola folks who. It was a very, very small segment of our population who was genuinely interested in living that way. And fast forward to today. I mean, it’s becoming, as Priya said, very, very popular. And globally popular, not just, you know, in 1 or 2 countries. So with that, I just feel like the wine industry is catching up. And as you know, there’s lots of label requirements with food, in particular. When you think about food to be certified vegan or vegetarian and to have that label on it, it’s really expected. If you were somebody, it’s just like if you were gluten intolerant, you know, you would want the food to be labeled. And so I think it’s just part and parcel that particularly the wine industry has embraced that. I think that the wine industry also, as you know, wine is a little bit on decline right now as far as consumption globally. And younger people are interested in beers and spirits and non-alcoholic beverages, for example. So I think it’s also a bit of the wine industry becoming hipper.
Natalie MacLean (00:13:06) – Interesting. Well, we’re coming out of the Paleolithic age and getting with those young ones.
Priya Rao (00:13:13) – Kids these days.
Natalie MacLean (00:13:14) – Oh, yes, as long as they just stay off my lawn anyway. So now you know, Jen, when people hear of vegan wine that they’re surprised. Some people are surprised. Then they think, aren’t all wines vegan? So explain what is a vegan wine?
Jennifer Huether (00:13:32) – Exactly. You would just think look it’s fermented grape juice. How did this go wrong? How could this not be vegan? But there are really many ways. So you kind of divide it into what happens in the land itself, what happens in the winemaking process, and then what happens in the packaging process. And depending on how picky you are about how vegan the wine is, you may gravitate towards certain wineries that are in all three segments really focused on being 100% vegan.
Natalie MacLean (00:14:12) – Okay, so give us some examples. Those three levels give us some examples of what it means in the land winemaking and packaging.
Jennifer Huether (00:14:19) – Okay. So in the land it we could be not vegan very easily. So that’s utilizing horses for example, in the vineyards to do our work, utilizing all kinds of animal products to fertilize for example. Could be other ways that a vineyard wouldn’t be considered vegan because considered vegan is really also not using animals for, you know, your gain, for example. And so they would be sort of cognizant of that.
Natalie MacLean (00:14:51) – Would that include using manure from animals as fertilizer? And I guess the horses would be old fashioned kind of plowing, tilling or whatever. The vineyard rows.
Jennifer Huether (00:15:03) – Yes, and to be honest, there are a few wineries in the world that I am aware of that they themselves are vegan and this is a belief system that they have. So in this way they really, you know, are hitting all three marks, if you will. Suffice to say, general public who are plant based, and vegan, vegetarian are probably okay with just when it comes to the bottle, right? And being cognizant of animal products in what they’re actually drinking.
Natalie MacLean (00:15:35) – Or also the winemaking part of it.
Jennifer Huether (00:15:38) – The winemaking part is where most people are concerned.
Natalie MacLean (00:15:40) – Okay. And what are those factors?
Jennifer Huether (00:15:43) – So these are a lot of things actually. So you can use animal products in so many ways. For example, you know it could be bone marrow. It could be char. It could be shells. It could be egg whites etc.. So a lot of times…
Natalie MacLean (00:15:59) – How are they using shells. Sorry.
Jennifer Huether (00:16:00) – So these items come into play for the most part when you’re fining and filtering a wine. So historically and naturally you could imagine 200 years ago you’re using whatever’s around the farm. There’s some eggs from the chickens. You know, let’s get the egg whites. Let’s mix them together. And then you put the egg whites on top of the wine, and they’re heavier than the wine. They pull all the particles out and they find it, for example. So historically, a lot of animal products could have been used because they were just easy and they were handy. Another one that was used historically would be ox-blood for example. Depending on where you were, if you’re close to the ocean, maybe you were using crushed up shells.
Natalie MacLean (00:16:45) – These are all fining agents, clarifying agents.
Jennifer Huether (00:16:48) – Fining, filtering. And then sometimes additional sugar that is not made from sugar cane but is actually derived from animals.
Natalie MacLean (00:16:57) – Okay.
Jennifer Huether (00:16:58) – Yeah. So there’s a lot surprisingly you wouldn’t think. Now fast forward to today. There are lots of other options for folks. First of all, you can just have time and you can let the wine settle and all of the particles fall to the bottom right. So if you are patient and you just have time, we can pretty much for the most part do without a lot of these animal products. The other thing is now they have, you know, membrane filters and things that you can buy, you know, off of Amazon, for example. And you can do it that way and you don’t need to use animal products. But I just think it’s very interesting because a lot of folks don’t understand that these elements can come into play when you are wine making. And that’s a big shocker.
Natalie MacLean (00:17:47) – Yeah. And what about clay and bentonite, are they okay for vegans?
Jennifer Huether – Yes.
Natalie MacLean – OK. Because they’re not non-animal. All right.
Jennifer Huether (00:17:54) – Yeah you know they’re just soil. Yeah. They’re not derived from.
Natalie MacLean (00:17:58) – Right. For clarifying.
Jennifer Huether (00:17:59) – Exactly. Yeah.
Natalie MacLean (00:18:01) – Okay. And what about that third category?
Jennifer Huether (00:18:04) – So here again we can have beeswax, for example. You know the wines that are topped off with the beeswax. We can use animals as far as colouring as far…
Natalie MacLean (00:18:16) – As I’m sorry, what’s the beeswax? Is it around the cork?
Jennifer Huether (00:18:20) – Yeah. You know, sometimes they’ll dip them and it looks really pretty and they’re hand dipped in wax. And then, you know, trying to break through it with your corkscrew. It is very pretty, but it wouldn’t be considered vegan friendly. For example, you can use things like glue, right. Glue that is derived from animals to stick your label on. The inks that are used in the label itself could be also derived from animals. So again, there are ways that we can go wrong. For somebody who is very vegan that this would not be okay for them. Again, I defer to the fact that for most people who are plant based, they’re really just concerned that there are no animals products in their wine that they’re drinking or that they were used to make the wine. Does that make sense?
Natalie MacLean (00:19:14) – Yeah, absolutely. And is there a difference between a vegan wine and a vegetarian wine? Is there any such thing as a vegetarian wine?
Jennifer Huether (00:19:21) – I haven’t really seen much of that, Priya, have you on packaging?
Priya Rao (00:19:26) – No, I haven’t seen any labeling of vegetarian. However, I would think that kosher wines, because sometimes they can use egg whites for fining. That’s vegetarian but not vegan.
Natalie MacLean (00:19:37) – Oh, okay. Great. And then what’s the difference, Priya, between vegetarian and vegan food generally for those who are not as familiar with the categories?
Priya Rao (00:19:45) – Sure. So there’s different levels. Different people refer to themselves as vegetarian. Some people are lacto ovo vegetarian, meaning that they will have milk and eggs. Some people call themselves pescatarian and consider that to be a form of vegetarianism because they only eat fish. But vegan basically means no animal products whatsoever. So no fish, no meats, no dairy, no eggs.
Natalie MacLean (00:20:08) – Okay, that really helps.
Priya Rao (00:20:09) – No honey.
Natalie MacLean (00:20:10) – No honey?
Priya Rao (00:20:10) – Honey is a tricky one. Some vegans will have honey and some vegans won’t.
Natalie MacLean (00:20:16) – Okay. You were alluding to this, Jennifer, but what clues on the bottle can we find? Are there official symbols that are government regulated that indicate this wine is vegan? And what do we look for?
Jennifer Huether (00:20:26) – Yes. Usually if you flip around the bottle and you look at the back part of the label, you will see a V sign, much like you will see on food packaging, that will indicate that the wine is vegan. That being said, again, the industry is catching up and sometimes you really just have to do your research to make sure a wine is, you know. Go to the manufacturer, go to the producer and ask them.
Priya Rao (00:20:55) – That’s one of the things about wine which I always find interesting is that every region has their own certifying body for different, whether it’s organic or, you know, sustainable. What are some of the other destinations like biodynamic sustainable? Exactly. And with vegan it’s the same thing. So there’s no internationally recognized body. So there are you’ll often find vegan certifications, but they’ll be different certifications depending on where they’re from. Like in in Canada we have Vege Cert, which is a Canadian certifying body. So that’s something you’ll often see instead of the V. So there’s just so many certifications now which is great but also kind of confusing.
Natalie MacLean (00:21:33) – It’s good to know, though that it’s not one standard. And then I’ve heard that sometimes if you see unfined and unfiltered on the label, there’s a good chance that it might be vegan. Not guaranteed. But can people look for those terms to try to narrow it down if there’s no V or anything on the label?
Jennifer Huether (00:21:51) – 100%, yeah, that will certainly be helpful. Again, sugars could be used, for example, in other things, but at least, you know, maybe 80%. That means it’s probably vegan.
Priya Rao (00:22:06) – And Jen, would you say that generally speaking, most natural wines are vegan?
Jennifer Huether (00:22:10) – Yes. That’s a great point, Priya, actually. Natural wines again, there’s no legal definition truthfully for natural wines. It’s pretty loose. However, generally speaking, they’re referencing the fact that really nothing is done by the winemaker. And so they’re not taking away, they’re not manipulating the wine at all. So generally speaking.
Natalie MacLean (00:22:36) – So low to no intervention.
Jennifer Huether (00:22:38) – Yeah, so it would be what’s in the bottle should be just the wine and the yeast etc..
Natalie MacLean (00:22:44) – Sure. And just to get into some of those differentiations that you’ve introduced there. Priya, how are vegan and gluten free wines different or are there gluten free wines.
Priya Rao (00:22:56) – I’m not familiar with gluten free wines. I don’t think that’s come up in my experience too much. Jen?
Natalie MacLean (00:23:00) – Okay.
Jennifer Huether (00:23:01) – No. Definitely in the beer world and in the spirits world, it’s a big thing.
Natalie MacLean (00:23:08) – Right, where they would use barley and wheat beers. Yeah.
Jennifer Huether (00:23:11) – Yeah. Typically with wine, we don’t see them using those products to produce the wine. So luckily wine is gluten free. Yay!
Natalie MacLean (00:23:22) – Okay, good to know. Yay. One check mark there in the positive side of the ledger. No there’s more. And our most vegan wines organic or that really doesn’t have much to do with each other.
Jennifer Huether (00:23:34) – Yeah it doesn’t, it’s just. Again like Priya bringing up kosher wine, for example, it’s just, you know, a certification, it’s knowledge to that consumer. Hey, you know, this wine is kosher. This wine is, you know, vegan, for example. So it’s that giving the consumer the power to purchase wisely based on their criteria. So yeah, they don’t necessarily go hand in hand.
Priya Rao (00:24:02) – And I might also add just some of the other designations like organic, biodynamic, sustainable, they all sound like they’re very earth friendly and eco friendly. And so people might think that that automatically means that they are vegan friendly, but they are not. That is not necessarily true, especially with biodynamic. So I think if people are looking for vegan wines, then do not look at those labels and think, oh, this must be vegan.
Natalie MacLean (00:24:27) – Right. Right. Do vegan wines have fewer sulfites or histamines? Are they better for our health in any way? What are the implications there again separate.
Jennifer Huether (00:24:37) – I would love to say that they are better for our health. They literally are just wine made without animal products. And so again, it’s really just giving that consumer the power to purchase with knowledge. They’re not necessarily any healthier. However, there’s lots of streams of wines that are becoming, you know, if you were sort of health conscious, for example, there are lower alcohol wines. That’s a really big trend right now. If you’re worried about chemical sprays, certified organic in the vineyard is important not just the winery, but also in the vineyard itself that I would say, you know, many folks are also concerned about pesticides. Glyphosate is a really big issue as far as chemicals go. And so for folks who are looking.
Natalie MacLean (00:25:33) – For what does it do? What’s about glyphosate, what is it, and how is it harmful?
Jennifer Huether (00:25:38) – Oh well, if you want to do a Google search, you can. It goes on and on and on. You know, I’m not an expert in glyphosate. What I do know is that it’s a chemical compound, and that it has been known to cause many issues in humans and in animals, as well as getting into our drinking water and so on and so forth. So when you are spraying, for example, organically with one, you could be using something like copper sulfate or the kind of a natural product, if you will. And not to say that that doesn’t do any damage. But when we get into some of these very serious chemical sprays and I’m not knocking wineries who gravitate towards these or need these, I’m just simply explaining that when you buy organic fruit, you’re really looking for fruit that hasn’t been sprayed with chemical compounds that could be super harmful over time to you. And it’s the same thing with wine. When you think about a grape, it’s very thin skin, right? There’s very little barrier. So that could get into the wine.
Natalie MacLean (00:26:43) – Well, for the sake of the environment, I would say let’s try to avoid those sprays, which is reason enough. But doesn’t fermentation eliminate all of those potentially harmful sprays, I mean, to the human body?
Jennifer Huether (00:26:55) – I’m not a winemaker, but to my understanding and knowledge no. They would still be chemical compounds in the wine, because when you think about it, think about red wine, for example, in how red wine is made. We utilize the skins. So the skins are in contact with the grape juice to get the colour, to get the tannins and to get some flavours. And so with that, you know, we know that we’re soaking the skins in contact with the wine and then we’re making a wine. And I understand what you’re saying. Alcohol could blow off because alcohol is produced with fermentation. Maybe that’s going to help. Maybe it’s going to help a little bit. But regardless, those chemicals are there. And to my understanding and knowledge, they can be there in quite high levels so that if you can and you want to. And again, it’s all about giving consumers power to make choices that are important to them. So if that is something that’s important to you, if you buy organic fruit at home, if you’re very organic with your food purchases, you might want to consider organic wine.
Natalie MacLean (00:27:55) – And for both of you, Priya, maybe you can lead off what caused you or what was the turning point for you in becoming a vegan?
Priya Rao (00:28:04) – Yeah. You know, like for the first 25 years of my life, I was a very happy meat eater. And I’ve always really enjoyed cooking and entertaining and all my entertaining and meals would revolve around meat. It wasn’t until I got into university that I started meeting other people who were vegetarian or vegan, and I thought, oh, this is actually something people can do. And I became vegetarian for probably like 15 years following that. And then since milk and dairy was never a huge part of my diet. I’m not a huge fan of milk. It wasn’t so hard for me to eliminate that. So I’ve now been vegan for about 12 years. And for me, the impetus from the very beginning was just that I like animals and I don’t like the idea of suffering. So to know that for my palate. For me to enjoy something momentarily, it’s going to cause so much pain and suffering, I just found that unpalatable to use a pun. And so eventually I just sort of made that transition. And I will just say that it also had some great benefits for me in terms of my health. Like, a lot of my allergies disappeared and now I’m 52 and most people would say I don’t look it. So I really do credit that a lot to my diet as well.
Natalie MacLean (00:29:19) – Absolutely. And we’re not using a special filter today on Priya if you’re watching the video. It’s the technology [laughter]. Yeah, you’re a little fuzzy around the edges.
Priya Rao (00:29:28) – Now it’s going to look like I put a glow filter on me just to make myself look younger [laughter].
Natalie MacLean (00:29:32) – [laughter] Yeah. That’s right. Those Insta filters where everything’s beautiful. No, I can attest that Priya looks very young. Nowhere near 52. Jen, what was the impetus for you to become vegan?
Jennifer Huether (00:29:46) – Well, that’s a great question. And to be clear, I’m not 100% vegan. I’m more plant based. But how I came to this was from a different route, which was I was tasked in my former job to come up with a seminar, something topical and something that interested me, which was a great challenge. And I did some research and I’m like, you know, this is wild. You know, there’s such a plant based movement and the food is changing, becoming more creative and interesting all the time. And yet nobody’s really talking about how to pair food that’s vegan with wine. So I created an entire seminar, and I booked another Master Sommelier, John Szabo, into presenting that with me.
And we did a whole dinner at Planta in Toronto, and we collaborated with the chef. We used, you know, wines from the wineries I was working with. And it was really fun. And actually that’s where I had met Priya for I think it was a second or third time. So we got to meet that night and it was just a great dinner. We also did a sommelier event as well, just to introduce this concept, because the reality to me is coming from the sommelier side of the world, is we’re seeing more and more customers coming into the restaurants that are lactose intolerant that, you know, can’t have gluten, that are vegetarian or vegan. And we need to pivot and to serve those customers, just like we would for somebody who is ordering a steak. So that was more my angle initially. And then through the process, I changed my diet doing the book with Priya and learning more and also doing our research. Really, I did become more plant based and understand it a lot more.
Natalie MacLean (00:31:34) – And what is the difference again between plant base and vegetarian? What’s the difference there?
Priya Rao (00:31:41) – Yeah, I mean vegetarian again, generally speaking, vegetarians eat eggs and dairy. A plant based diet means that they eliminate all animal products. However, that’s just a dietary choice. Whereas vegans generally avoid leather, they’ll avoid any animal products in their lifestyle. So it’s more of a lifestyle and plant based is more of a dietary preference.
Natalie MacLean (00:32:08) – Gotcha. Good to know all of these different things. So now you were coming round to meeting each other. And what was the moment? What sparked that idea for the Social Herbivore book?
Priya Rao (00:32:19) – Well, I will say that when I saw that Planta was doing this dinner with Jen and John and I had met both of them previously, you know, casually at some wine events. But I just thought, oh my God, this is the moment I have been waiting for, because I had been working on vegan food and wine pairings for probably about 6 or 7 years prior to that, but it just hadn’t really sparked in the world globally yet. So I went to the dinner and I chatted with Jen, and I mentioned to her that I wanted to do this book. So we sat down and we had a meeting after that, and she was like, I love this idea of a book. And that’s really how it all started.
Natalie MacLean (00:32:57) – Okay, cool. And when did the book come out?
Priya Rao (00:32:59) – It came out in 2020, right in the middle of lockdown. Perfection [laughter].
Natalie MacLean (00:33:06) – Yeah, I suppose you had all sorts of launch plants that went by the wayside.
Priya Rao – Exactly.
Natalie MacLean – At least we’re back to it now. And in getting the book out there, can you recall any surprising things people said? Any surprising feedback that you got? Any memorable feedback that came from people reading the book?
Priya Rao (00:33:26) – Yeah, when we hosted dinners at private clubs and golf clubs and such, I would say that oftentimes, and I find this generally speaking in any event that I hold, not everybody is vegan or plant based. In fact, I would say probably almost 50 over 50. There’s just such a huge interest. People have a huge interest in this because even if they don’t decide to eliminate animal products completely, they are wanting to make the choice to eat fewer animal products, whether it’s for health, whether it’s for environmental reasons, whether it’s because they really love their dog, you know, it doesn’t matter.
But for us, I would say I’ve always found the fact that people are shocked when they eat good vegan food to be really pleasurable for me, and also a little bit surprising, because there does seem to still be this lagging feeling out there that vegan food is, as Jen said earlier, like sort of granola and hippie. And we’ve come such a long way from that. So I think it’s really been very satisfying to see people respond so well, especially to recipes that are in the book. You know, we usually have the chef create a menu, and then he’ll use 1 or 2 recipes from the book. And so many times we hear the guests just saying, like, this was my favourite dish, and it might be my sticky toffee pudding or, you know, crab cakes. And so that’s always been such a pleasure for me.
Natalie MacLean (00:34:46) – And how many recipes are in the book?
Priya Rao (00:34:48) – Oh, okay. There’s 40 recipes. We separate them into small talk, big talk and sweet talk. Because for us, really wine and food is all about creating conversations around a dinner table.
Natalie MacLean (00:35:00) – And how many wines are each of the recipes paired with, say one wine or a type of wine? How does that work in the book?
Jennifer Huether (00:35:07) – Yeah, exactly. So we have definitely a couple of wine pairings. So we kind of do it with here’s my kind of value wine. And then okay, you know if you’re turning up the volume if this is special occasion or your real wine geek, then you can go with a splurge. So we’ve offered options to people.
Natalie MacLean (00:35:29) – Okay, great.
Priya Rao (00:35:30) – And I really like that because Jen made it so approachable for people. Like she really wanted to incorporate as many different varietals as possible. Because in our research, we did find that there are certain wines that just pair so well with so many kinds of vegan foods, but I just really like that. Going through the book and looking at the wine pairings, you’ll see representation from pretty much every wine region and a lot of grapes that people may not be so familiar with, which I find exciting.
Natalie MacLean (00:35:58) – That’s excellent. And which wines, then, Jen, were the ones that tended to have the most versatility with the vegan dishes.
Jennifer Huether (00:36:05) – Yeah, that’s a great question. For white, I would say Riesling. I’m going to give you three. And so Riesling and all its glory can be bone dry or off dry. So the versatility of Riesling and that acidity worked really well. Same thing with Chablis, which is of course Chardonnay from cool climate in northern Burgundy. So I found that to be super versatile as well. And then Sauvignon Blanc, because Sauvignon Blanc naturally has a bit of that green note in it and it works really, really well with a lot of green vegetables, etc., right? It’s very versatile. So I love those three whites.
Natalie MacLean (00:36:45) – Just before you move on. Does oak sort of clash with vegetarian dishes and if so, why?
Jennifer Huether (00:36:51) – At times it can. It depends on how aggressive it is and it depends on the dish. Every dish and wine is made, you know, individually if you will. And it’s all about finding that match. But yes, I would say sometimes when you think about the things that work with big oaky Chardonnays let’s say. I start to instantly think about butter cream, you know, dairy products. Now, a workaround would be to use a plant based but very creamy and fatty, perhaps cashew based cheese. So there’s always a workaround. But again, I was trying to find those three white wines that tend to really be the stars. There are certainly oaky Chardonnay pairings within the plant based, but that’s not my go to white wine for plant based food.
Natalie MacLean (00:37:41) – Sure. All right. And then reds.
Jennifer Huether (00:37:43) – Yeah, reds. We’re going to veer more towards less tannin. So think about grapes like Gamay. Beaujolais was the winner over and over and over again with so many dishes. So again, it works with so many things. So I always have Beaujolais. Gamay from Ontario is also an excellent option. Pinot Noir again is lower in tannins. It’s lighter, it’s fresher, it’s higher in acid. So that tends to work really, really well again with many dishes. And lastly Barbera for the exact same reason. So Barbera from northern Italy, Piedmont again it has really fresh acid, darker fruits than the red fruited Pinot Noir and Gamay, but also incredibly versatile with food.
Natalie MacLean (00:38:30) – And lots of great acidity. So those would be great choices.
Natalie MacLean – Well, there you have it. I hope you enjoyed our chat with Priya and Jennifer. Here are my takeaways. Number one, are vegan wine’s better for our health? No they’re not, and drinking too much vegan wine will still have the same deleterious impact on our health. But vegan simply means the absence of animal products and sometimes labour used in making the wine. Number two, what are the three aspects of wine that determine whether it’s vegan or not? So the three aspects are based on number one, what happens in the vineyard? There’s no animal labour. Number two, what happens in the winemaking process that the fining agents and other additives are not animal related? And then what happens in the packaging process. So the material is used for paper, cork and so on. So depending on how picky or should I say selective you are about how vegan the wine is, you may gravitate toward certain wineries, as Jennifer says, that are vegan and all three aspects. Number three, how can you identify whether or not a wine is vegan just by looking at the label? Well, there are various certifications and official symbols on a wine label, but there is no internationally recognized body for vegan wines. However, terms like unfined and unfiltered are clues, though not a guarantee.
In the show notes, you’ll find a full transcript of my conversation with Priya and Jennifer, links to their website and book, the video versions of these conversations on Facebook and YouTube live, and where you can order my book online now, no matter where you live. You’ll also find a link to the free online food and Wine pairing class that you can take with me. It’s called the five Wine and Food Pairing Mistakes That Can Ruin Your Dinner and How to fix Them Forever. And that’s at nataliemaclean.com/class. And all of these links are in the show notes at nataliemclean.com/275.
Email me if you have a tip, sip, or question at [email protected]. If you missed episode nine, go back and take a listen. I chat with Ezra Cipes of Summerhill Winery in BC about vegan and vegetarian wines. I’ll share a short clip with you now to whet your appetite.
Ezra Cipes (00:40:51) – Our vineyard in Kelowna is certified by Demeter as a biodynamic vineyard. It has extra rules above and beyond organics. So organic is sort of the baseline, which means that there’s no synthetics being used basically. And then there’s guidance on things they want to see about soil preservation and biodiversity and things like that. But biodynamics really codifies that you have to have at least 10% of your farm given over to nature habitat. And we have, I think, about 20 or 25% of our farms that’s wetland. We have a dry land, we have meadow habitat. And then you really view the farm as an ecosystem. You integrate animals and animal manures, and you really focus on making your own fertilizers from things you grow. On the farm, we make a horsetail tea for mildew control. We make large amounts of compost, and we add these herbal preparations to the compost to aid processes of decomposition. We spray basically a bacterial broth all over the farm that aids the life force, if you will, in the soil, but basically the soil food web.
Natalie MacLean (00:41:56) – You won’t want to miss next week when we continue our chat with Priya and Jennifer. If you liked this episode or learned even just one thing from it, please email or tell one friend about it this week, especially someone you know who’d be interested in learning more about the vegan wines and delicious pairings that we discussed. It’s easy to find my podcast. Just tell them to search for Natalie MacLean wine on their favourite podcast app, or they can listen to it on my website.
Natalie MacLean (00:42:23) – Thank you for taking the time to join me here. I hope something great is in your glass this week, perhaps a vegan wine that pairs beautifully with your vegan dish.
You don’t want to miss one juicy episode of this podcast, especially the secret full bodied bonus episodes that I don’t announce on social media. So subscribe for free now at nataliemaclean.com/subscribe. Meet me here next week. Cheers.
