The Biggest, Most Surprising Wine Myths with Hailey Bohlman

Natalie MacLean
Jan8th

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Introduction

What’s the important difference between dry wines and the dry feeling you get when tasting certain wines? Do all or even most wines taste better when they’re older? How can you make the most of a trip to Washington wine country?

In this episode of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, I’m chatting with Hailey Bohlman

You can find the wines we discussed here.

 

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Join the live-stream video of this conversation on Wednesday at 7 pm eastern on Instagram Live Video, Facebook Live Video or YouTube Live Video.

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Highlights

  • How did Hailey fall in love with wine?
  • What was Hailey’s experience with hosting her first virtual wine tasting during the pandemic?
  • How did Hailey get actor Kyle MacLachlan to do a virtual wine tasting with her tasting club?
  • Is there an overlap between Hailey’s wine career and her career in technical program management?
  • How does Hailey’s background and passion for mathematics influence her approach to understanding and teaching about wine?
  • What’s been the most challenging wine concept for Hailey to explain in her Wine 101 series?
  • What’s the most mind-blowing scientific fact about winemaking that Hailey has learned?
  • Which wine myth does Hailey find herself debunking repeatedly?
  • Who were Hailey’s most memorable podcast guests so far?
  • How can you make the most of a trip to the Washington wine regions?
  • Where is Hailey’s ideal place to have a glass of wine?
  • What does Hailey love about Domaine Philippe Vandelle Poulsard and Damsel Cellars Stillwater Creek Syrah?
  • Why does Hailey hate the idea of clean or fit wine?
  • Which wine would pair well with Hailey’s childhood favourite, microwave chicken pot pie?
  • Why does Hailey admire Brooke Delmas Robertson, winemaker at Delmas wines?
  • What are Hailey’s favourite wine gadgets?
  • If Hailey could share a bottle of wine with anyone outside the wine world, who would it be?
  • What message would Hailey want to share via a billboard in Seattle?

 

Key Takeaways

  • What’s the important difference between dry wines and the dry feeling you get when tasting certain wines?
    • Hailey notes that one of the hardest wine concepts to understand is tannin, which gets confused with dry in the wine world. Tannins in red wines cause your mouth to feel dry like having a cotton ball in your mouth. It sucks the saliva out of your mouth. So you wouldn’t call a wine with a lot of tannin dry. You’d call it tannic. When you say a dry wine, you’re saying a wine with no sugar, nothing to do with the tannins. They might go together, but not necessarily.
  • Do all wines taste better when they’re older?
    • Hailey says that the myth she hears a lot is that all wines taste better when they’re older. That’s actually not true. Every wine has a lifespan, and it looks like a bell curve. When you first bottle it, it’s at the bottom and needs a little time to develop some flavors, and then, as it ages, it gets to the top of its curve. But the thing is that the top of the curve is different for every single wine. Most of the wines you buy at the grocery store, you’re probably drinking that day or that weekend. So you’re not aging it. You need to know which wines can age, but that’s when you ask the experts. Shop at the small wine shops, ask the staff, ask winemakers and other experts.
  • How can you make the most of a trip to Washington?
    • Hailey advises to go for a variety of experiences and wineries when you visit any wine region. I mean, In Walla Walla, she suggests visiting wineries with vineyard tours, such as Delmas. They will teach you about how they’re growing the vines. Then look for a blending class like at at North Star winery. Then try a food and wine pairing, such as the one at Pepper Bridge. Visit both small and large wineries.

 

Start The Conversation: Click Below to Share These Wine Tips

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Every wine has a lifespan. Older is not always better. - Hailey Bohlman Hailey Bohlman Click to tweet

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The cool thing about Washington is that we don’t have one thing that we make. We make so many different types of wine and you’re going to find so many different types of wineries and winemakers. - Hailey Bohlman Hailey Bohlman Click to tweet

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I really hate the ideas of clean wine, healthy wine, fit wine. - Hailey Bohlman Hailey Bohlman Click to tweet

 

About Hailey Bohlman

Hailey Bohlman, is a wine enthusiast turned wine educator and founder of Cork & Fizz with the goal of making wine more approachable for everyone. By offering guided wine tastings, along with tips, recommendations and podcast, she makes wine fun and exciting!

 

Resources

 

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Thirsty for more?

  • Sign up for my free online wine video class where I’ll walk you through The 5 Wine & Food Pairing Mistakes That Can Ruin Your Dinner (and how to fix them forever!)
  • You’ll find my books here, including Unquenchable: A Tipsy Quest for the World’s Best Bargain Wines and Red, White and Drunk All Over: A Wine-Soaked Journey from Grape to Glass.
  • The new audio edition of Red, White and Drunk All Over: A Wine-Soaked Journey from Grape to Glass is now available on Amazon.ca, Amazon.com and other country-specific Amazon sites; iTunes.ca, iTunes.com and other country-specific iTunes sites; Audible.ca and Audible.com.

 

Transcript

Natalie MacLean 00:00:00 What’s the difference between dry wines and the dry feeling you get when tasting certain wines? They’re not the same thing. Do all or even most wines taste better as they get older? And how could you make the most of a trip to the gorgeous Washington wine country in Walla Walla? In today’s episode, you’ll hear the stories and tips that answer those questions in our chat with Hayley Bonham, host of the podcast Cork and Fizz. By the end of our conversation, you’ll also discover how Hailey fell in love with wine, how math and video games can help you understand why making in a fun way. I had to add that in a fun way. No more asphyxiating about math and even video games if you don’t play them. Haley’s experience with hosting her first virtual wine tasting during the pandemic. It’s quite a fun one. How Hailey got the actor Kyle MacLachlan to do a wine tasting with her tasting club. Yes, he of Twin Peaks and other movies and TV shows. How Haley’s background and passion for mathematics influenced her approach to understanding and teaching about wine.

Natalie MacLean 00:01:05 The most challenging wine concept for Hailey to explain in her wine 101 series. The most mindblowing scientific fact about winemaking that Hailey has learned I love it. The wine myth Hailey finds herself repeatedly debunking, which wine pairs with microwave chicken pot pie and Hailey’s favorite wine gadgets. Do you have a thirst to learn about wine? Do you love stories about wonderfully obsessive people, hauntingly beautiful places, and amusingly awkward social situations? Well, that’s the blend here on the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast. I’m your host, Natalie MacLean, and each week I share with you unfiltered conversations with celebrities in the wine world, as well as confessions from my own tipsy journey as I write my third book on this subject. I’m so glad you’re here. Now pass me that bottle, please, and let’s get started. Welcome to episode 319. Happy New Year! I hope you had a great holiday. Mine was very peaceful, relaxing with family and friends and lots of rosé. Then I did a whirlwind tour of ten driest January segments from coast to coast on the morning shows for CTV global, CHC, BNN Bloomberg and Citi TV.

Natalie MacLean 00:02:39 The response on social media was pretty incredible. I have never had so many direct messages flood my inbox, so I’ll share some fascinating stats and other info with you now about this trend and the wines and other drinks. So market research shows that 46% of Gen Z participated in Dry January last year. Even more will participate this month, with Millennials and Gen X at about 20%. And even more of those are choosing dry ish or damp January with low alcohol wines and other drinks. A whopping 94% of those who buy alcohol free wines are also buying traditional wines, and this category is expected to reach $30 billion US this year. So how do they make low and no alcohol wine? Low alcohol wine is often made by picking the grapes early so that they don’t over ripen with loads of sugar in them. Sugar gets converted into alcohol during fermentation. It’s what yeast loves to eat, so low sugar in grapes will give you low alcohol in the wine. For de alcoholic wines. Think of it like making decaffeinated coffee.

Natalie MacLean 00:03:52 You want to keep the flavor but lose the buzz. So we start with regular wine all the way through that process. Then at the very end, gently remove the alcohol, either by letting it evaporate or by filtering it through a delicate membrane that only catches the alcohol molecules, letting the flavor and everything else through. So whether it’s evaporation or filtration, there’s usually a 30% loss in volume of the wine or other drink. And that’s why the alcohol wines often cost more than alcoholic wines, which surprises a lot of people who think it should be cheaper because they’re missing an ingredient, when in fact they’ve had to make up for lost volume and add steps and processing. Are there certain types of alkaline wines that are better than others? So in my opinion, the best alkaline wines are sparkling wines, since the effervescence adds body and some texture with the bubbles and unoaked white wines like Riesling and Sauvignon Blanc Pinot Grigio that have zesty acidity to give them more oomph. Dry red wines are more of a struggle as you’re missing both the alcohol and sugar without the help of bubbles or acidity.

Natalie MacLean 00:05:07 However, I’ve discovered several that I like, and I’ll share them with you next week. Sweet red wines are actually terrific with dark chocolate for dessert. What are some of the other reasons or occasions that are driving this trend? So alkaline wines are ideal for lunch meetings when you don’t have time for an afternoon nap in the office, or when you’re the designated driver at an outing, or some of your guests are. There are also lots of health and religious reasons that people prefer these wines, so keep some on hand even if you don’t partake. Personally, I do enjoy them and they’re a great way to pace myself during an evening when I alternate between them and regular wines. It’s called zebra striping. Drinking. Do low and no alcohol. Wines taste different. Low alcohol wines tend to be very refreshing and zesty since alcohol provides both body and heat, so they’re also light bodied. It’s like the difference in weight between drinking, say, cream and skim milk. What should we look for on the label? A bonus is that many of these wines also have an ingredient label on the back, so you can get information about serving sizes, calories, and sugar levels.

Natalie MacLean 00:06:21 Wines labeled D alcoholic might still contain a tiny amount of alcohol, usually less than 0.5%. If you want completely alcohol free wine, look for alcohol free on the label or 0% alcohol by volume. The abbreviation is ABV, while 0.5% isn’t completely alcohol free. It’s actually impossible to get intoxicated at this level. Not that I tried, but science says. Consider, too, that a slice of sourdough bread has more alcohol in it than do these alcoholic wines. How should we serve diagonalized wines? Treat low and no alcohol wines just like other wines, but serve them a bit cooler to enhance their freshness 10 to 12°C for whites and 14 to 16°C for reds. Use the same type of glassware as you would for regular wines, so that you can swirl and smell their aromas. Pair whites and bubbles with lighter dishes such as seafood, salads and mild cheeses. Reds can handle grilled vegetables, mushroom dishes and some lighter meat dishes. I just avoid very fatty foods. Can you cook with these wines? These wines can be perfect for cooking, especially in risottos or sauces where you want wine flavor but not the alcohol.

Natalie MacLean 00:07:43 Just be sure you’re choosing wines that you’d also love to drink, as their flavor will come through in the food. So here’s to new beginnings and better choices without sacrificing taste or pleasure. You can find my favorite low and no alcohol wines, spirits, beer and cocktail and mixed drinks at Natalie MacLean. Com forward slash Lono. I’ll include this link in the show notes. I’ll also be posting reviews of these wines on Instagram at Natalie MacLean wine. Next week I’ll share reviews of specific low and no alcohol wines and other drinks on the podcast. I’ll also include low sugar drinks. I’d love to hear from you about your favorite low and no alcohol drinks. Now, just a reminder that I still have three copies of Chris Rowland’s terrific book press for champagne A guide to Enjoying the World’s Greatest Sparkling Wine. All you have to do is email me and let me know that you’d like to win. I’ll choose three people randomly from those who contact me at Natalie at Natalie MacLean. Com it does not matter where you live.

Natalie MacLean 00:08:53 In other bookish news, if you’re reading the paperback or e-book or listening to the audiobook of my memoir wine, which on fire rising from the ashes of divorce, defamation and drinking too much. I’d love to hear from you at Natalie at Natalie MacLean. Com I’d be happy to send you personally signed book plates for the copies you buy or give as gifts. I’ll put a link in the show notes to all retailers worldwide at Natalie MacLean. Com forward slash 319. The paperback usually arrives within a day or two of ordering, and the e-book and audiobook are instantly available. Okay, on with the show. Hayley. Oh my goodness. Already I tried to practice your last name, Hayley, and already call him Bullman.

Hailey Bohlman 00:09:41 Like like imagine it’s Boll Bullman. There we.

Natalie MacLean 00:09:44 Go. You know what? I had practiced that six times anyway. Here she is, easygoing Hailey Bowman, who is a wine enthusiast turned wine educator and founder of Cork and Fizz, with the goal of making wine more approachable for everyone by offering guided tastings along with tips, recommendations and her own podcast.

Natalie MacLean 00:10:05 She makes wine fun and exciting, and she joins us now from her home in Seattle. Hayley, it’s so great to have you here with us.

Hailey Bohlman 00:10:12 Yeah, thank you so much for having me. It’s it’s so exciting to be here.

Natalie MacLean 00:10:15 Awesome. So before we dive into your wine career, tell us about how you fell in love with wine.

Hailey Bohlman 00:10:22 I feel like it’s a question I get a lot because it’s like, yeah, how do you fall in love with something like this? And wine become such a passion of yours? So I for me, it started with a trip down to Willamette Valley, which is not far from here, down in Oregon. It was just a trip that my I think he was my fiance at the time. Now husband we did for my birthday and it worked out because his parents lived in Portland. So we dropped the dog off and then we went to Willamette Valley and I remember thinking like, okay, there’s a lot of wine here, I can’t wait to taste it all.

Hailey Bohlman 00:10:50 And then it was all Pinot Noir and Chardonnay, and I’m like, why do they all make the same thing? Like, how can they be that different? You know, how can it be that special? And then I have this really clear memory of trying this one Chardonnay. I think it was at Highland Estates. And I remember asking them, like, you’re sure you didn’t put pineapple or like, what was the other flavors? Pineapple. And there was one other thing I can’t remember, but I was convinced that there was pineapple. Oh, coconut. Coconut was the other one, pineapple and coconut. And I was like, you didn’t put that in here. Like, this is just grapes. They’re like, yeah, no, just grapes. Those are the aromas. And so from there, we ended up doing a wine tour and they recommended a book called Cork Dork. Got home, read that book and then the rest of the story. Yes, great, great book.

Natalie MacLean 00:11:35 I’ve had her on the podcast as well.

Natalie MacLean 00:11:37 She’s wonderful. And of course, you had a good palate without knowing it, because Chardonnay pineapple can have tropical fruit aromas and even the. As we know now, the molecular structure can be very similar to the aromas in pineapples. They’re not adding pineapples, just to be clear. Yes, but the coconut might have been oak aging depending on what kind of oak they were using. Who knows. Right.

Hailey Bohlman 00:11:59 Yeah. Absolutely.

Natalie MacLean 00:12:00 Yeah. Very good. All right. Tell me about the time that you, hosted your first virtual wine tasting with friends. I guess it was.

Hailey Bohlman 00:12:08 Yeah, it was, it was during the pandemic. So, like, after I got into wine, I came back to Seattle and was like, I need to try as many wines as I can, but I don’t want to buy all the wines. So I started a wine club with friends. It was kind of just anybody and everybody I knew, and so we’d had this wine club going probably a few years before the pandemic hit.

Hailey Bohlman 00:12:29 And turns out I’m very extroverted and I need connection with people. And so during that pandemic, we decided to transform the wine night instead of everybody coming over. I hosted my first virtual tasting, so I chose the theme. It was Chilean wine and I got some bottles and then poured them into little plastic cups, dropped them off at everybody’s door and put together a little slide deck and taught everybody about Chilean wine. And they loved it. I loved it, and it was what sparked the idea of cork and fizz.

Natalie MacLean 00:12:58 Oh that’s great. You know, were they sampling from those plastic cups or did they switch to glassware? Just asking. Curious.

Hailey Bohlman 00:13:04 Many of them sampled from the plastic cups. Again, we were not super, super fancy. Yeah, exactly. It was kind of just like. And also like they were along for the ride. They’re like, Hayley’s putting together this other thing. I mean, they knew me as, like the person who just needed to do things. So they’re like, let’s go along with it.

Hailey Bohlman 00:13:19 Let’s see what she’s doing.

Natalie MacLean 00:13:22 Well, that was.

Natalie MacLean 00:13:22 Very entrepreneurial of you.

Hailey Bohlman 00:13:24 Yeah.

Natalie MacLean 00:13:25 Now, one of the guests you’ve had on your podcast is Kyle McLaughlin, whom, if people don’t know, he’s an actor. Was he on Twin Peaks?

Hailey Bohlman 00:13:34 Yes. Yeah. That is the main he’s known for Twin Peaks Sex in the city. recently was in fallout.

Natalie MacLean 00:13:40 Okay. Yeah. So big name actor. How did you land an interview with him?

Natalie MacLean 00:13:45 Yes.

Hailey Bohlman 00:13:45 So this one’s such a funny story, and I actually, he’s not on the podcast, unfortunately. I keep trying to bring him on, but he was. He did a virtual tasting with my wine club, the virtual tasting club that I have the core crew. But it’s also like, how does how do you do that? And it turns out it was a weird happening of events. I hosted a wine retreat in Walla Walla a couple years ago, is my first one, and one of the gals who was on this trip happened to take a flight from Seattle to Walla Walla, and she doesn’t like flying, so she’s like, I always talk to my neighbor.

Hailey Bohlman 00:14:15 And so she ends up talking to this guy who sits next to her. He’s incredibly friendly, and she’s just chatting away about this cool wine retreat she’s going on, and she can’t wait and all this. And then and then she just, you know, says goodbye at the end of the end of the thing. And it isn’t until later when she’s walking around Walla Walla that she’s with another person who’s on the retreat, and this person notices when the friend, she goes, oh, hi, Kyle. You know, like, hi, it’s nice to see you. And she’s like, oh my God, how do you know Kyle McLaughlin? And the other person wanted to get a picture and she’s like, why do you want a picture with my friend Kyle? I don’t get it. What is he, some.

Natalie MacLean 00:14:50 Guy from.

Natalie MacLean 00:14:51 The plane?

Hailey Bohlman 00:14:52 Yeah, exactly. And so it turns out it was Kyle McLaughlin. and he ended up following Kirk and face because she was telling him all about this winner tree.

Hailey Bohlman 00:15:00 And so I just kind of took that connection and ran with it and kind of like, reached out to him and was like, hey, I have this group of people that love learning about wine. And so he also owns a winery and just started making wine recently. There’s the connection, right? You’re like, okay, you still have to have a connection.

Natalie MacLean 00:15:15 He is a wine guy. Is his winery in Washington the Walla Walla region?

Hailey Bohlman 00:15:19 Yes. So the winery itself isn’t in Walla Walla. I believe he sources most of the grapes from Yakima, which is where he’s originally from. the Yakima region in Washington. But he has a tasting room in Walla Walla, which is why he was out there. It was a newer tasting room that was that was actually, I think, opening up that weekend.

Natalie MacLean 00:15:37 And so did you interview him or did he join one of your tastings or.

Natalie MacLean 00:15:41 We did kind.

Hailey Bohlman 00:15:42 Of an interview. The I call him Q and A is on the court crew. So it’s my tasting club.

Hailey Bohlman 00:15:47 And the idea is basically just to bring in community members in the wine world and have an opportunity to ask them questions. We normally try their wines if they’re a winemaker, but it’s just meant to be kind of chill and relaxed and to learn about their foray into the wine world.

Natalie MacLean 00:16:01 And what did he tell you that was surprising or interesting about his own wine journey?

Hailey Bohlman 00:16:06 Oh, man, I think I mean, first of all, I was surprised to learn that he was from Yakima, and that was kind of what tied him to the area, because I was like, what does like a, you know, a famous actor, which I imagine, you know, from Hollywood have anything to do with wine in Washington and being from the area and how much it mattered to him, like he was involved in the entire winemaking practice. And, I mean, I’ve also seen him at there’s a yearly event here in Washington called Taste Washington. His winery was there and he was there, and I was just blown away with how involved in his wine.

Hailey Bohlman 00:16:39 You know, you hear celebrities making wine and sometimes you’re not so.

Natalie MacLean 00:16:42 Sure, right? But they just really enjoy whatever.

Hailey Bohlman 00:16:45 Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And he really cared about it.

Natalie MacLean 00:16:48 Cool. What’s his winery called?

Hailey Bohlman 00:16:50 God, I knew you were gonna say that. Then I’m like, what is the name? It has nothing to.

Natalie MacLean 00:16:53 Do with him then.

Natalie MacLean 00:16:54 Is it?

Hailey Bohlman 00:16:54 No, it’s not, and that’s what is. I’m keep getting stuck on. There’s this wine tasting room here in Seattle called Princess and Bear. And I know it’s not that it’s something about a bear.

Natalie MacLean 00:17:05 Bear? Yeah, because there’s some sort of video with him at a bear on YouTube.

Natalie MacLean 00:17:09 Pursuit of.

Hailey Bohlman 00:17:09 Bear pursuit. Pursuit of bear. Something like that. Yes.

Natalie MacLean 00:17:14 I’ll Google.

Natalie MacLean 00:17:15 It afterwards and put it in the show notes if people.

Natalie MacLean 00:17:17 Are curious.

Natalie MacLean 00:17:17 But yeah, there’s quite a funny video I watched with him that’s interesting to know. You never know who you’re going to run into in the world of wine.

Natalie MacLean 00:17:24 You know, it really does bring all types of people together and bears apparently as well.

Natalie MacLean 00:17:30 Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Natalie MacLean 00:17:31 So now you’ve created your very own emoji for a very particular wine aroma. Tell us about that. How it came to be.

Hailey Bohlman 00:17:40 So this is going back to that friend group where, you know, we started this wine club and this was before any of us really knew anything about wine. I was kind of trying to dive deeper into it. So I would encourage us, you know, when we’d get our glasses of wine to smell it and see what we smell. And there was this one particular night that we had two bottles that happened to be contaminated with what I now know is called Brett or Brettanomyces. Yeah. Yes. And it like ends up making the wine smell like barnyard like hay. Right. Or as we described at that night, like sweaty leather saddle.

Natalie MacLean 00:18:15 Yeah, yeah.

Hailey Bohlman 00:18:16 And you’re.

Natalie MacLean 00:18:17 Being kind. People have also described it as pure shit.

Natalie MacLean 00:18:22 Right.

Hailey Bohlman 00:18:22 Yes.

Hailey Bohlman 00:18:23 Yeah. So ours we called a sweaty leather saddle. And oddly enough, the fact that we had two in a row, like, I don’t know if they were in a row, but to that one night, you know, and it’s only out of ten bottles. But it was just really funny. And so later I ended up making like a tasting sheet for friends, but I wanted to make it more fun. So instead of having just like an empty space for you to write in your aromas, I put a bunch of emojis. So it was like, just like the faces for how you felt about it. Different types of food, the minerals. And then of course there is a horse on it as well. And we all know that that means sweaty leather saddle.

Natalie MacLean 00:18:54 There you go.

Natalie MacLean 00:18:54 Yeah, absolutely. There should be a whole range of emojis for wine tasting aromas. I think it make it fun and more accessible and I don’t know.

Natalie MacLean 00:19:03 Yeah, I think.

Hailey Bohlman 00:19:03 Everybody really liked it because not only was it easier because they could just look at it and see which ones like, I always recommend looking at a list of aromas, but then like you said, it was like your own interpretation of how you wanted to read the emojis.

Natalie MacLean 00:19:15 Yeah, absolutely. It’d be fun if tasting notes devolved to emojis. Oh my goodness. Future of wine communication. All right. What do you think you’d be doing professionally, Hailee, if you weren’t writing about teaching wine?

Hailey Bohlman 00:19:28 Well, fun fact, I’m actually, this is also kind of a I call it like a side job or my I have a corporate job is also what I what I tell people.

Natalie MacLean 00:19:37 It’s a job. Job, a j-o-b job.

Natalie MacLean 00:19:40 Yes.

Hailey Bohlman 00:19:40 You know that job that like I call it corporate cause I’m like, they’re both real jobs, but one of them pays the bills a little better than the other one dies.

Natalie MacLean 00:19:49 Let me guess which one. Yes.

Hailey Bohlman 00:19:51 Yes, exactly. And so I was in the tech field. I was a software engineer. And then I switched over to technical program management. And it doesn’t sound like it has a lot of connections, but technical program management is a lot of organizing and keeping things together. And so while there’s not a connection to why necessarily a lot of like running a business, the skills I use there are used a lot in program management.

Natalie MacLean 00:20:12 Sure, sure.

Natalie MacLean 00:20:13 So do you work for high tech company or another corporation?

Hailey Bohlman 00:20:17 I mean tech slash corp. I think they’re I would call it both. I came out to it’s actually what brought me out to Seattle. I was started working at Google after I graduated, and then I just kind of stuck.

Natalie MacLean 00:20:26 Around to.

Natalie MacLean 00:20:27 My goodness. Oh, I just started working at Google.

Natalie MacLean 00:20:30 Yeah, okay.

Natalie MacLean 00:20:32 Wow. Okay. You have a background and a passion for mathematics. How does that or does it influence your approach to understanding and teaching about wine?

Hailey Bohlman 00:20:43 Yeah, I the connection, I say to people and I make this joke because I, I loved learning as a kid, and I think that’s something that influenced my passion for wine, you know, and especially with the reason math comes up is because the way I like to learn was I would make math problems for myself for fun. Like, that was how.

Natalie MacLean 00:21:01 Strange, little kid I was just kidding. No, just.

Hailey Bohlman 00:21:05 That’s my mom.

Natalie MacLean 00:21:05 That is not wrong.

Hailey Bohlman 00:21:08 And so I would just, like, make math problem because I just, I like learning. It was fun. I like doing new things. And so I kind of lost that passion for learning when, you know, high school, college and everything became about having to get a good grade and having to get a good job, and there was so much pressure attached to it. And then when I found wine, it was like, there’s no longer this pressure attached to it. I could just learn for fun and it was a never ending opportunity to learn about things.

Natalie MacLean 00:21:36 Yeah.

Natalie MacLean 00:21:36 Yeah, absolutely. Have you ever used mathematics to describe a wine in a unique way?

Hailey Bohlman 00:21:42 Not to describe a wine, but to describe a process? I it’s funny because I also use a video game at the same time when I explain fermentation. So teaching people how wine is made, I usually make the joke that I’m like, remember, I like math. Like, here’s this one formula I’m going to teach you.

Hailey Bohlman 00:21:57 And then we’re done, I promise. But I also use like the Pac-Man video game to describe it. But the idea that like to make wine, right, you start with sugar in the grapes and then you add yeast. So one side your formula is sugar plus yeast.

Natalie MacLean 00:22:12 Yeah.

Hailey Bohlman 00:22:12 And then that equals carbon dioxide and alcohol. And so the idea is that like and then the Pac-Man is like Pac-Man is the yeast. And then the dots are the sugar and it’s going to go around and eat all of it. But I do use that formula, and it helps a lot to like on virtual tastings to like actually show it. But I hope in like the doing it verbally as well kind of helps folks.

Natalie MacLean 00:22:31 To.

Natalie MacLean 00:22:31 Absolutely win. Math is fun. The only kind of math for me.

Natalie MacLean 00:22:34 For a.

Natalie MacLean 00:22:35 Math phobe. Sorry. It was fun. So in your win 101 series, you know you break down very complex topics into digestible bits. What’s been the most challenging y concept to explain, and how did you overcome or how did you end up explaining it?

Hailey Bohlman 00:22:52 I think one of the hardest concepts is the idea of tannins, and also getting that confused with the word dry in the wine world, right? Because tannins, which you know, we find in red wines, cause your mouth to feel dry.

Hailey Bohlman 00:23:07 And the way I kind of explain it is, I say it’s like you have a cotton ball in your mouth or multiple cotton balls in your mouth. Like it literally just like sucks the saliva out of your mouth, you know? And so I found that, like, that cotton ball simile really works really well for people. And then just clarifying that the thing is, in the wine world, you wouldn’t call a wine with a lot of tannin dry. You’d call it tannic. Because when you say a dry wine that for some weird reason, is the opposite of sweet. So all you’re saying is you want a wine with no sugar. It has nothing to do with the tannins. They might go together, but not necessarily so. I always try to like differentiate between the word dry when we’re talking about wine, and then the sensation that tannin gives you with that dry feeling.

Natalie MacLean 00:23:55 That is such a key concept that is really well worth remembering. The astringency and dryness as a sensation or feeling. That’s tannin.

Natalie MacLean 00:24:04 But the technical term in wine dryness means there’s no sugar left. It’s been fermented to complete dryness. It could still taste very fruity, which actually can sometimes give you the perception of sweetness. And it can be a bone dry wine. Yeah, that is confusing for people, but it’s great the way you explained it.

Natalie MacLean 00:24:23 Yeah. Thanks. Cool.

Natalie MacLean 00:24:24 Yeah. So your content also often touches on the science behind wine making. What’s the most mindblowing scientific fact about wine you’ve learned so far?

Hailey Bohlman 00:24:35 Oh, I think one that I learned recently and I still sometimes can’t wrap my head around like the idea of like, we talk about how wine ends up tasting like butter, right? Like a lot of people associate Chardonnay that has been in an oak barrel as having a buttery taste, and how it’s not actually the oak barrel causing that. It’s from this process, the malolactic fermentation, and it’s a whole other form of fermentation. I always explain it as like malic acid, which is what you’d find in grapes, but also what you’d find in an apple gets converted into.

Hailey Bohlman 00:25:09 Yeah, exactly. And it gets converted into that lactic acid, which is like what you’d find in milk or butter. Right? but I remember talking to a winemaker and he’s like, no, your wine can go through malolactic fermentation. And if it fully goes through malolactic fermentation, you don’t get that butter smell. Because in no butter taste, because you doesn’t leave behind this compound called diacetyl. Diacetyl only gets left behind when you don’t fully go through malolactic. And that diacetyl is what causes the butter smell and the butter like taste and feel.

Natalie MacLean 00:25:42 I did not know that. Thank you. Mind blowing. Absolutely. Diacetyl. Oh, I love how nerdy that is, but it makes total sense.

Natalie MacLean 00:25:52 I’m not so partial.

Hailey Bohlman 00:25:53 You don’t have to be afraid of oaked chardonnay. If you don’t like butter, you can very well. And even like, he’s like. Yeah, the butter. Like the butter chardonnay brand. Like, it doesn’t even actually have diacetyl in it. It’s just like flavor in your brain saying that it’s called butter.

Hailey Bohlman 00:26:06 So then you’re going to think it’s a buttery chardonnay.

Natalie MacLean 00:26:10 Interesting. That is so cool. You also have a section called Wine Myths Busted a series. What’s the most persistent myth about wine that you find yourself debunking repeatedly?

Hailey Bohlman 00:26:22 I think the one that I hear a lot is the idea that all wines, like, taste better when they’re older, right? And I’m sure you’ve heard that too, is like the idea that, like, you know, the older wines are better. Why are the older wines always better? And it’s like, oh, that’s that’s actually not true. They’re not. You know, I tried to explain is like everyone has a lifespan and it looks like this bell curve. And whenever like when you first bottle it, it’s at the bottom and needs a little time to chill out and like develop some flavors. And then as it, you know, ages, it gets to the top. But the thing is, that top is different for every single wine. Most of the wines you buy at the grocery store, they know that you’re drinking that probably that day, that weekend, right? You’re not saving that.

Hailey Bohlman 00:27:04 So they’re not going to have a wine that takes five years to get to its top right. It’s probably a month, if that, you know. And then as soon as it hits the top, it starts to drop off and get worse. And so every wine is different with that, which makes it challenging. Obviously you need to know which wines can age. But that’s when you ask the experts. Shop at the small wine shops, ask the winemakers to learn which ones take a while to get to that top.

Natalie MacLean 00:27:31 And is there another myth that you have to debunk, or one that’s maybe lesser known? People make the wrong assumption about it?

Hailey Bohlman 00:27:40 Oh, man. Lesser known. I mean, a lot of mine are like because because they’re just so common. I mean, I’ve definitely heard the one. I don’t know if you’d consider this one lesser known, but the idea that, like, you shouldn’t be drinking white wine straight out of the fridge and that red wine shouldn’t just be at room temperature, like you should actually put your red wine in the fridge for like 15 to 30 minutes and then take that white wine out of the fridge 15 to 30 minutes before you drink it.

Hailey Bohlman 00:28:04 Like that will make a huge impact on the flavor of the wine.

Natalie MacLean 00:28:07 That’s another good one. Really good. And then you have wine hacks, another series of practical tips. What’s one hack you initially thought would not work but ended up being a game changer, making a big difference.

Hailey Bohlman 00:28:21 I don’t know if it was a big difference, but the one that comes to mind, my husband and I were. I think we were traveling back. I’m from Wisconsin originally, so my family lives there now, and we were coming back from Christmas there and our flight got delayed. So we ended up stuck in Chicago for a night. And we were at the hotel and we had a bottle of wine in our suitcase. We’re like, yeah, this is definitely coming out tonight. It’s been a rough day. And so we went to open it and my mom had put like a corkscrew in my stocking. So I was like, great, I have one of those. So I went to open it and it got stuck and it broke off like in the corner.

Natalie MacLean 00:28:55 Oh no.

Hailey Bohlman 00:28:56 So here we are with like a bottle of wine that we really want to drink. The corkscrew is broken. Nothing’s open. Right. It’s late. And so we found a way like, you know, you look up online, you’re like all the ways to open up a bottle of wine when you don’t have a wine opener. The trick that we ended up using, we just ended up. I got the corkscrew out. Like, we’re not going to leave that in. That’s dangerous. but then we used a pen to push the cork into the wine bottle and it worked just fine. It was probably the easiest. I mean, if you’re okay with a little cork in your wine. Worked out great. And I was like, we were able to drink the wine just fine.

Natalie MacLean 00:29:29 Oh, I’ve never heard of that one.

Natalie MacLean 00:29:30 And of course, that doesn’t make the wine cork. That’s a whole different thing of the wine getting tainted from the chemicals used to clean or bleach corks. But that works just fine, especially if you’re in a hotel after a tough day.

Natalie MacLean 00:29:41 That sounds.

Hailey Bohlman 00:29:41 Yeah, because we I mean, we tried the one where you’re like, you put it in the shoe and like, hit it up against the wall and like, we were trying all these things. I’ve also seen, like putting a hairdryer up by the cork. But the problem is you’re also warming the wine up. So like, we didn’t want to do that. And so we’re just like, can we just like push the cork in and yeah, ended up working fine. Just work around the cork a bit.

Natalie MacLean 00:30:01 Wow. Okay.

Natalie MacLean 00:30:02 Noted.

Natalie MacLean 00:30:02 Yeah I’m forever.

Hailey Bohlman 00:30:04 In desperate, desperate need.

Natalie MacLean 00:30:08 You wouldn’t believe how often that actually happens. All right, so you’ve got this popular podcast, Cork and Fizz. You’re up to over 70 episodes, I believe. Tell us was about your three most favorite guests so far, or the most interesting, colorful, whatever. Maybe start with the first guest. And what was the most memorable story he or she told you?

Hailey Bohlman 00:30:28 Sure. I mean, the the first guest that comes to mind, we already mentioned it earlier today was Bianca Bhasker, and I think this one was just so exciting because it was like, Holy crap, this person that got me into wine, like her book, is what made me realize that wine was this cool thing and was this first step and oh my God, I’m talking to her on the podcast.

Hailey Bohlman 00:30:49 Like I just remember being, like, blown away by getting to hear her experiences. And I mean, nothing like particular comes to mind, but it was just this opportunity to chat with somebody who, like, basically was like, she didn’t know it, but she was kind of my mentor when I was getting into wine to like, you know, get me interested and learn about all these aspects.

Natalie MacLean 00:31:11 Yeah, absolutely.

Natalie MacLean 00:31:12 Did she share any wine tips or anything that you recall?

Hailey Bohlman 00:31:16 Oh, I mean, this was one of the early, early podcasts I just remember her talking about, like, I think she had, like, a really unique way of thinking about wine, because at the time, she was actually in the middle of writing her next book, which came out recently, all about art in the world of Art.

Natalie MacLean 00:31:31 Yeah, I hear.

Natalie MacLean 00:31:32 About that one, too.

Natalie MacLean 00:31:33 Oh, okay. Yeah.

Hailey Bohlman 00:31:33 And I, I just thought it was so interesting because like, to her, it wasn’t necessarily the wine.

Hailey Bohlman 00:31:38 It was this opportunity to, like, dive into a unique world that you might not totally understand. And so I thought that was such a cool way to look at it. Whereas like, for me, it was all about the wine. And for her it was about that adventure and learning from new people and like trying to get that same passion or at least understand where people are coming from when they care about something so much. When you’re like, I don’t get it, you know?

Natalie MacLean 00:32:05 I think she did that successfully with both books, and I saw a lot of parallels between Cork Dork and Get the Picture. And, you know, there’s these worlds onto themselves. They both have their own technical jargon. They’re insiders and outsiders. They’re both very high end, high priced kind of pursuits. They’re both very sensory. I mean, there’s just so many parallels. But yeah, she did a great job with those two. Who else comes to mind as a podcast guest?

Hailey Bohlman 00:32:32 Let’s see here I also had oh, I had these great winemakers from Colorado.

Hailey Bohlman 00:32:37 They they stand out because they just I love their approach. Jamie and Steve were their names. The winery is called the Storm Cellar, and I just it was one it was cool because I’m like, wine in Colorado. Like I’ve never. And they sent me some wine that I got to try. And it was wonderful. I remember one thing that stands out to me about them that makes it super unique is that they actually so they were sommeliers in their, in their past. and they were also, you know, as a Somalia, you know, don’t just know about wine, you know, about, you know, liquors and things like that. And Jamie or she was really into cocktails and she put out this idea that we’re also afraid to, like, put wine in a cocktail. Like good wine. You know, when you think about a wine cocktail, you think about throwing some, like, cheap prosecco in a in a mimosa, right? Like you would never put, like, high end champagne in there.

Hailey Bohlman 00:33:26 But she’s like some of the like when you’re making a good cocktail, you use high end vodka, you use high end bourbon, you know, like it’s.

Natalie MacLean 00:33:32 True flavor and flavor out just like when you’re.

Natalie MacLean 00:33:35 Cooking.

Hailey Bohlman 00:33:35 And she’s like, why can’t we do the same thing with wine? You know, why can’t we create wines and and appreciate them in a glass on their own, but also create a really fun cocktail and, you know, put it together with local ingredients and, and create something that’s really fun in that way, too. And it kind of opened up the way that I looked at wine.

Natalie MacLean 00:33:55 Yeah. Did she have a unique cocktail like, or some unique ingredients she was putting into the wine?

Hailey Bohlman 00:34:01 Yeah, she didn’t have a specific cocktail, but she did highlight and I’m not sure if she’s still doing it, but she talked about creating a wine club where you would get two bottles of their wine, one of them to drink, and then the second one to use in a cocktail.

Hailey Bohlman 00:34:14 They’d also send you local ingredients to like, create that cocktail along with it and making it a super unique wine club. So I know they were there getting that started or had just started launching that it might still be a thing, might not, but it’d be a good thing to look into.

Natalie MacLean 00:34:29 Oh, it’s great, great.

Natalie MacLean 00:34:30 Very creative. And one more guest.

Hailey Bohlman 00:34:33 Yeah. One more guest. I think the another like, pretty cool one. I ended up having Sidney Rice, who was a NFL star for the Seahawks. He was also on the Vikings and then his business partner Tim Linehan here in Washington. They started a Washington winery out here. And I think one, it was just like I think it was like the first time my dad was like, whoa, you’ve like made it somewhere. You’re talking to an NFL player. And so, you know, that was really cool. And I think I liked that because talking to Sydney about how he started in wine, you know, and he’s like being in the NFL.

Hailey Bohlman 00:35:11 You have an opportunity to try a lot of things you never would. And and to be in that place. And, you know, during the pandemic, I had a lot of people sending me things, and I never really had a lot of Washington wine until he kind of connected. Tim was a friend of his. And so Tim introduced him to the world of wine because he was from Walla Walla or to the world of Washington wine and realizing, like, how amazing Washington wine was. And so they created this winery to really highlight that Washington wine can be just as top notch and high end as many of these like, California wines that I think a lot of people think of.

Natalie MacLean 00:35:45 Yeah, absolutely. Big fan of Washington wines, actually. While we’re on the topic of Washington, if someone’s planning a trip to Washington, the wine regions, Walla Walla or others, what are your top tips for making the most of a trip like that?

Hailey Bohlman 00:36:02 I think one of my top tips is to go for a variety of experiences and wineries, because you’re going to find all kinds of things.

Hailey Bohlman 00:36:09 I mean, I know more about Walla Walla. That’s where I’ve done a couple retreats and gone myself a couple times and I would say like, look for, you know, look for those vineyard tours. Del Mar SJ vineyard is a great one. They take you out in the vineyard and teach you about how they’re growing the wine, and then look for like a blending class. I’ve done one at North Star. That was really great. Go somewhere to do a food and wine pairing. I think Pepper bridge did a really great one while we were out there, and there’s there’s more of them, but like really do a mix of those types of experience and then go to like a small winery just for a taste of the wine, you know, go to that, you know, small little tasting room in the town and then go visit one of the big ones, you know, like one of the well-known spots, but really give it a variety so that you can try a lot of different things.

Hailey Bohlman 00:36:59 Because the cool thing about Washington is that we don’t have one thing that we make. We make so many different types of wine, and you’re going to find so many different types of wineries and winemakers that you can have that variety. And I think that’s really cool.

Natalie MacLean 00:37:13 And I love your idea for trying to like signing up for some interactive experiences, whether it’s the blending of the food pairing or, you know, right out in the field. So is Walla Walla the largest wine region in Washington?

Hailey Bohlman 00:37:26 No, no, it’s,

Natalie MacLean 00:37:28 It’s relatively tiny.

Hailey Bohlman 00:37:30 Yeah. I mean, it is an especially when you, when you go visit there, I mean, the top tips, you know, I always warn people, Uber is not really a thing. Walla Walla is a tiny town. Like it is small. To get there, you primarily have to. I mean, there is one flight. There’s one airport that has like two flights a day that come in from Seattle, pretty much. So you have to go to Seattle first and then to Walla Walla, or you can drive from the Tri-Cities or from Pasco, I believe.

Hailey Bohlman 00:37:56 So like it is harder to get to, you’re probably going to want a rental car, but it is so worth it because it’s this cute little tiny town. And then just like basically there’s a lot of wine, like that’s what you do. And the town is so friendly and wonderful. But yeah, definitely not one of the bigger ones. It’s small. The cool thing though, is it’s actually across the wine region itself is across both Washington and Oregon. So you actually might travel down into the northern part of Oregon a little bit. And that’s still considered Walla Walla winery regions are wine regions obviously don’t care about state lines. So you can be in both Washington and Oregon.

Natalie MacLean 00:38:32 And then what would be the other major wine regions people might want to consider visiting when they’re in Washington?

Hailey Bohlman 00:38:38 Sure, I think I mean, obviously the biggest wine region is Columbia Valley, but it’s like so large and encompassing, you would need to pick another spot. I think Yakima Valley is a really great spot. That was the first Ava here in Washington.

Hailey Bohlman 00:38:51 And they’re.

Natalie MacLean 00:38:52 American.

Natalie MacLean 00:38:52 Viticultural.

Natalie MacLean 00:38:53 Appellation.

Hailey Bohlman 00:38:54 American Viticultural Area. So yeah, basically just like defining the wine region. And they make a certain type of wine in that region. And so yeah, Yakima was the first. So it’s kind of like the most well-known. You can also, I mean, if you’re looking for more of a city experience coming out to Seattle, there’s there’s a town probably like 30, 40 minute drive. And we do have Uber here, a 30 40 minute drive from Seattle called Woodinville. And you’re not going to have the vineyard experience. But there are God, I want to say over 100 tasting rooms in Woodinville. So if you want that city experience but you want to taste a lot of Washington wine, Woodinville would be the place to do it right.

Natalie MacLean 00:39:32 And Seattle’s such a beautiful city to visit with the restaurant. So some people may just want to stay put, you know, in terms of.

Natalie MacLean 00:39:39 Not exactly exactly. So one, even though I think it is worthwhile.

Natalie MacLean 00:39:43 And then outside of Washington, what do you think? You know, you’ve explored lesser known wine regions in your podcast. What is the hidden gem of a wine region that you believe deserves more attention from wine lovers?

Hailey Bohlman 00:39:57 I think one, and I’m a little biased because I just got back from a trip to France about a month ago. but there’s this region in France that is about an hour east of Burgundy. So a lot of people know if Burgundy and France. But there’s this region that is an hour east called the Jura. Jura. And it’s a small, tiny little region, but they produce wonderful wines. If you can get your hands on them, they they do. They are around in the US just a little harder to find. They’re super unique wines. Their reds are kind of lighter, similar to a Pinot noir. So really food friendly and they have this really unique white wine. It’s called it looks like Sauvignon without the you and it’s like seven yards I think is how I had them say it a million times when I was there because I’m like, I don’t say this right.

Hailey Bohlman 00:40:44 seven. Yeah, I think it’s what it’s called. So if you look for one that’s made in the traditional way, what they do is when they have it in the oak barrel, when wines in an oak barrel, some of it evaporates and normally winemakers will top it off. They’ll add more wine so that there’s no oxygen in the barrel.

Natalie MacLean 00:41:01 In.

Hailey Bohlman 00:41:02 Jura. When they’re making the seven yot in the traditional way, they don’t top it off, they leave some oxygen there and it ends up oxidizing the wine a little bit. Not to the point of a fault, a little bit. and it produces a really unique kind of nutty. I’m trying to think of, like other, like, things like Sherry. Yes, exactly. Yeah. I think it’s such a cool, unique wine.

Natalie MacLean 00:41:26 That is intriguing. Okay. And what would be your ideal place to have a glass of wine?

Hailey Bohlman 00:41:32 Oh, man, I.

Natalie MacLean 00:41:35 So many I know.

Hailey Bohlman 00:41:36 Right? I’m like, as long as there’s wine, I’m good.

Natalie MacLean 00:41:38 No, I is the ideal place. Yeah, right.

Hailey Bohlman 00:41:41 I do think I’m drawn to Walla Walla is a favorite of mine because I’m drawn to the areas that are kind of quieter. I like areas where I can, like, look out at the view, you know, a view of vineyards, some mountains, a sunset somewhere where it’s just nice and quiet. Maybe there’s like a bonfire next to me or I’m next to a fireplace. Something about fire is always nice too. And just like overlooking that, it’s quiet. And I’ve just got a good glass of wine. And then I’m like, the funny thing is, I’m gonna juxtapose that with a bunch of friends surrounding me, you know, friends or family and, and I think drinking a glass of wine with the people I care about always makes it so much better.

Natalie MacLean 00:42:20 Absolutely, absolutely. Wine is the drink of conversation, culture and community.

Natalie MacLean 00:42:25 Yes, it’s more than alcohol.

Natalie MacLean 00:42:27 And you have a couple wines there. What two wines do you have with you?

Hailey Bohlman 00:42:31 So the first one connected to Jura here, I had to highlight, I thought it’d be fun to highlight like a lesser known wine and then of course, a wine from Washington.

Hailey Bohlman 00:42:38 I want to highlight one of my local producers here. So this first one is a Cotes de Jura, coming from that Jura region from Domaine Philippe Wendell, and it is a grape called Poul Saad. Okay. so do you want.

Natalie MacLean 00:42:50 To hold the bottle up to the. Yeah, absolutely.

Hailey Bohlman 00:42:53 I was like, I don’t know how much on the.

Natalie MacLean 00:42:55 Yeah, there you go. I see you.

Hailey Bohlman 00:42:56 Show. Yeah. so yeah that’s.

Natalie MacLean 00:42:58 Our and I.

Natalie MacLean 00:42:58 Will put a link in the show notes to it as well.

Hailey Bohlman 00:43:00 But yes. Yeah, I don’t think the vintage I have is 2022. I think the one that I found that’s available might be a year younger. Hopefully. You kind of see here. It’s a pretty pale red but really beautiful. I love that. It just makes me. It’s very similar to a Pinot noir and I love Pinot noir wines. And it’s just it’s it’s acidic, it’s smooth, it has these earthy notes to it. You know, I get a lot of mushroom and cherry and honestly, it’s one of those that like similar to Cabernet Franc.

Hailey Bohlman 00:43:30 I want it on the table at Thanksgiving. Like it just works really wonderfully.

Natalie MacLean 00:43:35 It’s juicy.

Natalie MacLean 00:43:36 Enough for turkey.

Natalie MacLean 00:43:36 Which can be dry.

Hailey Bohlman 00:43:37 Yeah, exactly, exactly. And so the second wine, like I said, I wanted to do something local here from Washington. So this is Damsel Cellars. I’ve, I’ve, interviewed the winemaker Mary Womack on my podcast, but she is wonderful. This is a Stillwater Creek Syrah. And so when people always ask me, you know what? What is the top wine of Washington. And I think a lot of people think of either Cabernet or Merlot. But to me, I think the best wine in Washington is a Syrah. I think we’re able to make these very fruity still, but not overly done. And they have this. Like you’ll notice, I love wines that have an earthy note. You know, I needed to have something beyond just the fruit. And it’s this beautiful, you know, dark purple color.

Natalie MacLean 00:44:22 And very smooth, like that velvety texture.

Hailey Bohlman 00:44:25 Exactly. And without being, like, overly oaky. Right. You know, it’s not like it’s covering up the fruit flavor and it’s got this black plum, but also, you know, a little bit of that olive kind of smell that I think a lot of people are like, oh, gross wines, olives and no, no, no, it’s like this cool kind of salty situation and then.

Natalie MacLean 00:44:45 Contrast of a little bitter note. Yeah. With the olives or whatever.

Hailey Bohlman 00:44:48 Exactly, exactly. And it’s just. Yeah, it is a favorite. Damsel cellars is wonderful. She makes a lot of really great wines. but the Cerato sticks out to me.

Natalie MacLean 00:44:58 And what would you pair that Syrah with?

Hailey Bohlman 00:45:00 I do tend to like draw Sarah towards meat. I do think they work well together. If I’m going for a snack, just some green olives I think would work just fine. But if I’m going for like a meal, probably like like steak kebabs I think would really work well on the grill.

Hailey Bohlman 00:45:16 You know, like steak, green pepper, mushroom, some onion all grilled over the fire would work really well with this.

Natalie MacLean 00:45:23 Okay.

Natalie MacLean 00:45:23 I’m hungry and thirsty. You’ve done your job, Haley.

Natalie MacLean 00:45:26 Thank. Wow. Okay. Well.

Natalie MacLean 00:45:30 All right. Is there something that you believe about wine with which some people might strongly disagree?

Hailey Bohlman 00:45:36 Oh, probably like my most the most controversial thing I say, but I think a lot of people in the wine world do agree with me. I really hate the ideas of clean wine, of healthy wine, of the fit wines, the like low sugar wines. Because I just, I get it, I get that they’re trying to reach a certain audience in a market, but it feels like they’re doing it in a way that’s not really fair because as we’ve mentioned, like wine has alcohol, so wine is not healthy. I truly believe there really. Like there are some things you look out there like at, you know, the blue regions of the world. I think Sardinia is one of them where like they have people living very long lives and they drink wine all the time.

Hailey Bohlman 00:46:16 So like maybe there’s a connection and that’s great, but it is alcohol. It is poison, right? There is some in there. And so I never call it like healthy for the body. I think it’s healthy for the soul. And so I would never want people to see clean wine or fit wine or even low sugar wine, because so many wines don’t even have sugar. It’s just the alcohol that’s giving it sugar. And I wouldn’t want them to think that that’s healthy, right?

Natalie MacLean 00:46:40 Yeah, it’s not a health food, but in moderation. It can be part of a healthy lifestyle.

Natalie MacLean 00:46:45 Exactly.

Natalie MacLean 00:46:45 The key is moderation. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Well very good. And how about one of your favorite childhood foods? What was it and what would you pair with it as a wine today? As an adult?

Hailey Bohlman 00:46:57 Okay, I loved those microwave chicken pot pies from. I think Marie Callender was the brand on those. I loved the chicken pot pies. Those were like my favorite. They were almost like a treat because we would get them.

Hailey Bohlman 00:47:12 When my mom was working late and my dad was home, and he doesn’t cook very.

Natalie MacLean 00:47:16 Much, so.

Hailey Bohlman 00:47:17 We’d get to throw a chicken pot pie in the, in the oven. And in terms of pairing with that now, I mean, I kind of have to go to a Chardonnay. I mean, I feel like I couldn’t not, you know, especially a, a white Burgundy. So a Chardonnay from the Burgundy region of France. And I think a lot of people again, Chardonnay, they think butter. And that’s not necessarily true, but it can have this, a slight buttery note to it or a slight, you know, vanilla cinnamon kind of situation that I think goes well with like the buttery crust of a chicken pot pie. Oh yeah. And then it obviously has that acidity, so it’ll help kind of balance out the creaminess in the chicken pot pie. Now I’m like, what am I having for lunch today? Yes.

Natalie MacLean 00:48:00 I’m thinking, how far is it to dinner?

Natalie MacLean 00:48:02 Yeah.

Natalie MacLean 00:48:04 And what’s the weirdest wine and food pairing you’ve had? And did it work or didn’t it?

Hailey Bohlman 00:48:08 Oh, okay. So when I was talking about that pepper bridge food and wine pairing in Walla Walla. So something you can book if you’re there. And they paired a deviled egg with one of their red wines and I can I wish I could remember which one it was. And I remember seeing it and being like, because we had a full vegetarian menu that day, because a couple of the folks in the group were vegetarian. So like, we’ll just make the whole thing vegetarian, no problem. And I saw the deviled eggs. I’m like an all red wine. There were no white wine.

Natalie MacLean 00:48:36 Yeah. The sulfur compounds were.

Hailey Bohlman 00:48:39 Really no in it.

Natalie MacLean 00:48:40 It worked.

Hailey Bohlman 00:48:41 Great. I don’t know what it was. I couldn’t, I think maybe with like the herbs they had on top of it, I think they had some dill and maybe some parsley. I think those may be kind of took over the flavor profile and made it work with the red wine.

Natalie MacLean 00:48:53 Yeah, at least.

Natalie MacLean 00:48:54 They were bridging ingredients of some.

Natalie MacLean 00:48:56 Some sort. Yeah, yeah.

Hailey Bohlman 00:48:57 It it worked. I don’t know what it was, but it was good.

Natalie MacLean 00:49:00 Yeah.

Natalie MacLean 00:49:01 And is there a particular winemaker that you admire most?

Natalie MacLean 00:49:06 Oh, I.

Hailey Bohlman 00:49:07 Mean, I admire every winemaker. I mean, first of all, because their jobs are freaking hard, but they’re one that sticks out to me that I always love to highlight. her name is Brooke Delmas Robertson, and she is the winemaker at Delmas, and she’s also the the grape grower. It’s really special. I got to learn from her. So she’s the one that does the vineyard tours out in Walla Walla and Delmas Star Vineyard, and I just really appreciated how much, you know, she how much work she put into building these vineyards in Walla Walla and learning about she, you know, she came from California where she’s like, I hate to say it, but like, it’s kind of easy to grow grapes in California when you come up to Washington because you don’t have this difficult weather.

Hailey Bohlman 00:49:49 Washington has a very short growing season because we can start getting frost early in October. It’s cooler or, you know, later into the year and the beginning of the year when the grapes start growing. And so she needed Brooke needed to find a way to, you know, ripen these grapes quickly. And then also over the winter when the grapevines are dormant. But if it gets too cold, those grapevines can still die. And so she needed a way to ripen the grapes and then also keep the grapevines alive. And so she came up with this way in. Right. And she’s the winemaker. But it also matters in the vineyard and in doing the grapes. And she came up with a way and she did this goblet style grapevine, but really close to the ground. And so what this does is it gets it closer to the ground, where the heat can radiate off of the rocks in the vineyard. They’re in a district called the Rocks District that has tons of rocks, just like you would see in the Rhone Valley.

Hailey Bohlman 00:50:45 Right.

Natalie MacLean 00:50:45 Those flat, round rocks, right, that really radiate heat.

Hailey Bohlman 00:50:49 Exactly. And so she kind of gets that off of having it close. And then over the winter, they literally just bury the entire grapevine because it’s so low to the ground. And being under the soil, it protects it from freezing and dying.

Natalie MacLean 00:51:04 That’s great.

Natalie MacLean 00:51:05 Great idea.

Natalie MacLean 00:51:06 Wow, that is cool.

Natalie MacLean 00:51:07 And what’s the most useful wine gadget you’ve discovered?

Hailey Bohlman 00:51:11 Okay, so I love finding a good wine gadget because there are so many of them out there that are like, this is ridiculous. What is this? One of my favorites. These are called Reaper Wine Savers.

Natalie MacLean 00:51:21 Oh, yes. The the sort of purple stoppers.

Natalie MacLean 00:51:23 Yes, exactly.

Hailey Bohlman 00:51:25 And so they look like hopefully I’m not too loud on the mic here. Yeah. They just look like these little stoppers and they go all you have to do is take the foil off. When you’re ready to use them, take the foil off the bottom and then put them in your wine bottle.

Hailey Bohlman 00:51:36 And so to me and then they keep the wine good for 2 to 3 months I have had complete success with that. And then you just make sure, like whenever you grab a glass of wine from that bottle with this, you grab the glass quick, and then you put it back in real fast. You just don’t want. Once the foil is off, it can’t be in contact with oxygen very long. But I love them for like one. They’re a great alternative. I love my coravin, but sometimes I open a bottle of wine and then I realize I’m not going to drink as much of it, right? And so then I need an option for when the bottle is open and the wrappers are a great cheaper alternative. If you don’t drink wine as often, the core of it feels like, you know, a larger expense, right? So love the report. They also work with the screw cap, so that helps. And then the other one I saw when I was like getting ready, I’m like, oh no, I gotta tell her about this.

Hailey Bohlman 00:52:22 I don’t know if you’ve ever seen one of these. This looks like a.

Natalie MacLean 00:52:24 Chill office.

Natalie MacLean 00:52:25 Implement.

Natalie MacLean 00:52:28 It’s called a.

Hailey Bohlman 00:52:28 Vocal. It’s great in the summertime, but you can use it in the winter too. Of course, this top part goes in the freezer and it keeps your wine cold. So you just set your wine glass inside of it and it can chill your wine or keep it cold. So it’s a way for like people who are always like, I just like putting ice cubes in my wine because I like it cold. Or you’re like me and you forgot to put the Sauvignon Blanc in the fridge, but you really want a glass of it right now?

Natalie MacLean 00:52:51 Yes.

Hailey Bohlman 00:52:52 And so this or you’re in a hot region and your wine gets warm once it’s out of the out of the fridge pretty quickly. And so that vocal they have one for the stemmed glasses and the stemless. So I use them all the time in the summer. They’re super handy.

Natalie MacLean 00:53:06 And is it two words vo chill vo or.

Hailey Bohlman 00:53:10 I think it’s just all one word. But you’re saying it like right. So Vo and then chill.

Natalie MacLean 00:53:14 Just chill it together. Vo chill okay. Yeah. Interesting.

Natalie MacLean 00:53:17 All right. If you could share a bottle of wine with anyone in in the world, living or dead outside the wine world, who would that be?

Natalie MacLean 00:53:25 This is.

Hailey Bohlman 00:53:26 Hard because.

Natalie MacLean 00:53:27 Like.

Hailey Bohlman 00:53:28 So many options, like you said, wine is all about like, community and like, getting to have interesting conversations. And so the person that came to mind is Brené Brown. Have you ever heard of her?

Natalie MacLean 00:53:40 Oh, yes.

Natalie MacLean 00:53:41 Yes, I quote her in my latest book. I love her in the arena, vulnerability, all the rest of it. I love her.

Natalie MacLean 00:53:47 Yes. She’s great.

Hailey Bohlman 00:53:49 I remember reading one of her books in college, and I think that was one of the first times that I realized one of the things holding me back was this fear of failure. And this this tied. I was so tied to perfection.

Hailey Bohlman 00:54:00 And so I think she’s very much been my inspiration for how I take on the world. And then also that has inspired me to take risks with cork and fizz and start this business and do these crazy things and put myself out on the internet to do these things. And because, like, it’s more worth it to try, right? Like you said, like you got to put yourself down in the arena. And if anyone’s judging you from the stands, like they’re not the ones in the arena, you are like, do your thing. It’s okay to mess up. It’s okay to fail. Like you’re going to feel vulnerable, but like it’s not shameful to do something wrong. That’s okay. Just learn from it, you know?

Natalie MacLean 00:54:33 Absolutely. Hayley. And is there a question you’d ask her in particular?

Hailey Bohlman 00:54:37 Oh, I think I would. I’d probably just gush to her for.

Natalie MacLean 00:54:40 All about.

Hailey Bohlman 00:54:42 How wonderful she is. And then maybe just I would probably dive deeper into, you know, vulnerability and the world of like, small business and entrepreneurship.

Hailey Bohlman 00:54:53 And how would she kind of get over that fear of failure and perfectionism to build a better business and be a more confident entrepreneur?

Natalie MacLean 00:55:01 Yeah, she is a wise woman. If you could put up a billboard in Seattle, what would it say?

Natalie MacLean 00:55:07 Oh.

Hailey Bohlman 00:55:09 Honestly, I have no idea. I mean.

Natalie MacLean 00:55:11 Pass me the wine. Yeah, right.

Hailey Bohlman 00:55:14 It would have to do something with wine, right? And, I mean, I couldn’t not promote cork and fizz, so it’d probably be something.

Natalie MacLean 00:55:19 About an ad.

Natalie MacLean 00:55:21 Free ad you’ve got a billboard to.

Natalie MacLean 00:55:22 Play with. Yes, exactly.

Hailey Bohlman 00:55:24 Probably something about, you know, we could all use a glass of wine. Right?

Natalie MacLean 00:55:28 Let me teach you about it.

Natalie MacLean 00:55:30 Yes, yes, yes, yes. Our time has flown. This has been wonderful. Is there anything that we haven’t covered that you’d like to mention before we wrap up?

Hailey Bohlman 00:55:39 I mean, thank you for having me on here. This has been super fun. I mean, for folks that are listening, like you said, I also have a podcast.

Hailey Bohlman 00:55:46 So if you’re like, you listen to Natalie’s and you’re like, I want more, come on over and we’ll just make sure you have wine podcasts going all the time.

Natalie MacLean 00:55:56 All the time. Wine all the time. Yes. Cork and fizzes. Your podcast Cork and fizz. Com would that be a website?

Natalie MacLean 00:56:02 Yes.

Hailey Bohlman 00:56:03 Yeah. Cork confused.com. You can find everything on there. I’m kind of dabbling in a lot of different things. I do private tastings both virtually and in person. So if you’re in the Seattle area and you want to host a wine tasting, come reach out. I have that virtual wine tasting club, the Cork Crew. So if you’re somebody who’s interested in learning more about wine, but you know, you want to get together with this community of folks and you can do it all virtually. I always say, like from your PJs, from your couch, nobody’s judging you. We learn about new wines every month, and it’s a it’s a super fun thing. It’s called. Yeah, I think I said it’s called the Cork Crew and of course the podcast.

Hailey Bohlman 00:56:34 Yeah. Cork and fizz. Guide to wine. Guest.

Natalie MacLean 00:56:35 Yes. All right. Lots of.

Hailey Bohlman 00:56:37 Fun things.

Natalie MacLean 00:56:38 Well, Hayley.

Natalie MacLean 00:56:38 This has been wonderful. Thank you so much for taking the time and sharing your stories like some of those insights. They were mind blowing. I’m going to remember though. So thank you so much. I’m going to say goodbye for now, and I’m looking forward to when we can share a glass of wine in person.

Hailey Bohlman 00:56:54 Yes. Me too.

Natalie MacLean 00:56:56 All right. Cheers.

Hailey Bohlman 00:56:57 All right. Cheers.

Natalie MacLean 00:57:03 Well, there you have it. I hope you enjoyed our chat with Hailey. Here are my takeaways. Number one, what’s the important difference between dry wines and the dry feeling you get when tasting certain wines? Haley notes that one of the hardest wine concepts to understand is tannin, which gets confused with dry in the wine world. Tannins in red wines cause your mouth to feel dry, like having a cotton ball in your mouth. It sucks the saliva right out of your mouth so you wouldn’t call a wine with a lot of tannin dry.

Natalie MacLean 00:57:35 You call it tannic. When you say a dry wine, you’re saying a wine with no sugar, which has nothing to do with tannins. They might go together, but not necessarily. Number two do all wines taste better when they’re older? Haley says that the myth she hears a lot is that all wines, to a certain extent, taste better when they’re older. Not true. Every wine has a lifespan, and it looks like a bell curve. When you first bottle it, it’s at the bottom of that curve and needs a little time to develop some flavors. And then as it ages, it gets to the top of its curve. But the thing is, is that the top of the curve is different for every single wine. Most wines you buy at the grocery store or liquor store, you’re probably drinking that day or that weekend. You’re not aging it. You need to know which wines can age, but that’s when you ask the experts. Sharp and small wine stores ask the store staff, ask winemakers when you visit wineries and other experts.

Natalie MacLean 00:58:33 And number three, how can you make the most of a trip to Washington wine region. Haley advises to go for a variety of experiences and wineries when you visit any wine region. In Walla Walla, she suggests visiting wineries with vineyard tours such as Dilmah, and they’ll teach you about how they’re growing the vines. Then look for a blending class like at North Star Winery. Try food and wine pairing, such as the session offered at Pepper Bridge Winery, and be sure to visit a mix of both small and large wineries. All right. In the show notes, you’ll find the full transcript of my conversation with Haley, links to her website and podcast, the video versions of these conversations on Facebook and YouTube live, and where you can order my book online now, no matter where you live. If you missed episode 151, go back and take a listen. I chat about Natural Wines with author Rachel Sidner. I’ll share a short clip with you now to whet your appetite.

Rachel Signer 00:59:34 Standardization has actually taken the place of tradition.

Rachel Signer 00:59:38 That is the debate raging around these appellations and winemakers who are kicked out. For a lot of natural winemakers, it’s insulting to be told that because they don’t add things to their wines, they’re not going to have the place name on their label. We often don’t go through the channels, the Court of Master Psalms and here we are. Some people don’t like the way that they taste. Quite honestly, I don’t think that everyone needs to like natural wine. I do think there are a lot of very classical tasting natural wines that don’t get enough attention. I think there is a natural wine for everyone.

Natalie MacLean 01:00:24 You won’t want to miss next week when we chat with Chris Bensinger, winemaker with Ben Zeiger Wines in California, he is a natural born storyteller with lots of fascinating insights about winemaking and a lot of great humor. If you like this episode or learned even one thing from it, please email or tell one friend about the podcast this week, especially someone you know who’d be interested in learning more about the most popular wine myths.

Natalie MacLean 01:00:51 It’s easy to find my podcast. Just tell them to search for Natalie MacLean Wine on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, their favorite podcast app, or they can listen to the show on my website at Natalie MacLean. Com forward slash podcast. Email me if you have a SIP tip question, or if you’d like to win one of three copies of Chris’s book. Or if you’ve read mine or listening to it, I’d love to hear your thoughts about this episode. Were you surprised about the difference between dry and tannic wines? Was there another wine myth that surprised you? Email me at Nathalie and Natalie MacLean. Com in the show notes, you’ll find a link to take a free online food and wine pairing class with me, called the five wine and food Pairing Mistakes That Can Ruin Your Dinner and How to Fix Them Forever at Natalie MacLean. Com forward slash class. And that, of course, is all in the show notes at Natalie MacLean dot com forward slash 319. Thank you for taking the time to join me here.

Natalie MacLean 01:01:49 I hope something great is in your glass this week. Perhaps it’s a glass of dry wine that’s not tannic. You don’t want to miss one juicy episode of this podcast, especially the secret full bodied bonus episodes that I don’t announce on social media. So subscribe for free now at Natalie MacLean. Com forward slash subscribe. Meet me here next week. Cheers!

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