Rioja Wines Blend the Past and Present with Adam Lechmere

Natalie MacLean
Sep25th

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Introduction

How has Rioja’s famous architecture impacted tourism and the international perception of Rioja wines? How does Rioja wine style change in a vintage characterized as an Atlantic year versus a Mediterranean year? How did oak aging become so fundamental to the identity of Rioja wines? What’s driving the resurgence of traditional aging methods, such as concrete tanks?

In this episode of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, I’m chatting with Adam Lechmere, editor of The Smart Traveler’s Wine Guide to Rioja, among other books in this series.

You can find the wines we discussed here.

 

Giveaway

Two of you will win a copy of his terrific new book, Rioja: The Smart Traveller’s Wine Guide.

 

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Highlights

  • Where did the Rioja focus on oak aging develop?
  • How do the characteristics imparted by American versus French oak differ?
  • What do you need to know about the classifications and label regulations for Rioja wine?
  • What’s driving the resurgence of older aging methods, such as concrete tanks?
  • How can you differentiate between French Grenache and Spanish Garnacha?
  • What are some of the key distinguishing characteristics between Tempranillo and Cabernet Sauvignon?
  • What makes a great vintage in Rioja?
  • How has Rioja’s famous architecture impacted tourism and the international perception of Rioja wines?
  • Which changes does Adam see coming in Rioja’s future?

 

Key Takeaways

  • How did oak aging become so fundamental to the identity of Rioja wines?
    • As Adam explains, Rioja wines are categorized according to the time they spend aging in oak barrels. Spain had strong trading links with America so it was cheaper to ship American oak to Rioja than to import French oak. Winemakers used it for economic reasons rather than for stylistic ones, though of course, over time, it became stylistic. American oak is particularly well suited for the country’s flagship red grape Tempranillo because it has a slightly wider grain than French oak, so it imparts more flavors.
  • What’s driving the resurgence of traditional aging methods, such as concrete tanks?
    • Adam says that it’s driven by changing global trends in wine styles. He observes that we rarely hear about Parkerization anymore, referring to the full-bodied, heavily-oaked fruit bombs that the US critic Robert Parker supposedly scored highly. It’s also that Rioja winemakers are forward-looking in their experimentation because they’re such pioneers.
  • How does Rioja wine style change in a vintage characterized as an Atlantic year versus a Mediterranean year?
    • Adam observes that you’ll find more opulence, more generosity in a Mediterranean year versus Atlantic-influenced years are more precise, slightly less opulent. These differences can be very subtle but noticeable.
  • How has Rioja’s famous architecture impacted tourism and the international perception of Rioja wines?
    • Adam notes that Rioja’s architecture has been so famous for so long now that it’s hard to know whether tourists visit primarily because of the architecture or the wine. This splendid architecture informs every winery. López de Heredia Vina Tondonia has a new modern tasting room built around an old wooden kiosk. Hotel Viora is like a collection of blocks dropped randomly from the sky. Bodega Ysios has a strikingly gorgeous serrated, curved roof that leaks but it’s beautiful.

 

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Rioja’s use of American oak is iconic. - Adam Lechmere Adam Lechmere Click to tweet

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Traditionally, Rioja Oriental is not as celebrated as the other regions. - Adam Lechmere Adam Lechmere Click to tweet

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In Rioja, there’s always that idea that the old is living alongside the new. - Adam Lechmere Adam Lechmere Click to tweet

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What happens in the winery is equally important to what happens in the vineyard. - Adam Lechmere Adam Lechmere Click to tweet

 

About Adam Lechmere

Adam Lechmere is the publishing director of Academie du Vin Library, contributing editor to Club Oenologique, and general manager of the Academie du Vin Foundation, a charity dedicated to improving diversity in wine and hospitality worldwide.

Formerly editor of Decanter.com, which he launched in 2000, he has been writing about wine for 25 years, contributing to Decanter, World of Fine Wine, Meininger’s, janeanson.com, the Guardian and other publications; at the end of 2018, he launched Club Oenologique.

In the late 90s, he was at the BBC, writing for and producing websites for the newly-launched BBC Online; he worked for several years as a travel writer, publishing books on Mozambique, the United States and South America; he also spent some years selling celebrity gossip stories to the tabloid press. He lives in London.

 

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Transcript

Natalie MacLean 00:00:00 How has Rio’s famous architecture impacted both tourism and the international perception of real Hawaiians? How does Rioja wine style change in a vintage that’s characterized as an Atlantic year versus a mediterranean year? How did oak aging become so fundamental to the identity of Rioja wines? And what’s driving the resurgence in traditional aging methods such as concrete tanks? In today’s episode, you’re going to hear the stories and tips that answer those questions. In part two of our chat with Adam Leitch, mere editor of The Smart Traveller’s Guide to Rioja, among other books in this series. You don’t need to have listened to part one from last week first, but if you missed it, go back and have a listen after you finish this one. By the end of our conversation, you’ll also discover how wines are classified in Rioja and what that means for you when you’re reading Rioja bottle labels. The similarities and differences between French Grenache and Spanish Garnacha key distinguishing characteristics between Tempranillo and Cabernet Sauvignon. What makes for a great vintage in Rioja overall? Why single vineyard wines are becoming more popular.

Natalie MacLean 00:01:13 How Rioja marries the past and present and the changes that are coming in the future of Rioja. All right, let’s dive in. Do you have a thirst to learn about wine? Do you love stories about wonderfully obsessive people, hauntingly beautiful places, and amusingly awkward social situations? Well, that’s the blend here on the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast. I’m your host, Natalie MacLean, and each week I share with you unfiltered conversations with celebrities in the wine world, as well as confessions from my own tipsy journey as I write my third book on this subject. I’m so glad you’re here. Now pass me that bottle, please, and let’s get started. Welcome to episode 304. I can’t help myself. I fixate on any wine scenes in the television shows or movies I watch. So in The Perfect Couple starring Nicole Kidman and leave Schreiber on Netflix, the opening scene shows a man pouring perrier-jouet champagne into the top glass of a champagne tower fountain, so it pours out and fills all the other glasses. I love this show.

Natalie MacLean 00:02:38 For all its soapy intrigue, and anything Nicole does is brilliant. However, I must take issue with the joys of glassware, coupe glasses, those wide round cups supposedly modeled after Marie Antoinette’s breasts there is impractical as she was, if you recall her saying, let them eat cake, referring to the starving people of France just before the revolution. Yeah, well, coops are notorious for allowing bubbles to escape too quickly. One of the pleasures of champagne flute glasses do preserve the bubbles, but I feel they’re too narrow to swirl your wine and smell it. Also the pleasure of all wine. I prefer a white wine glass. Then I put on my director’s hat and think that maybe impractical waste is the perfect metaphor for a show about the rich and their callous ways. This is just another example of where I get distracted by the technicalities and miss the whole subtext. By the way, they were pouring ginger ale, not champagne, so at least the props manager was practical about the budget. Since Perrier-jouet starts at about $90 for its entry level champagne and goes up to about 700 a pop for the Belle Epoque.

Natalie MacLean 00:03:52 Blonde blonde, which is made from 100% Chardonnay grapes Anyhow, I can accept this, but what was truly unforgivable is when the family starts debating over dinner whether the Chablis they’re drinking is Chardonnay. You know, my blood pressure rose at this point, and I wanted to shout at the TV that all Chablis is, in fact, Chardonnay. But the wine’s crisp minerality sets it apart from the buttery oak. Chardonnays of warmer regions, say, like Napa Valley. Think of it as all stallions or horses. But not all horses are stallions. Okay, speaking of getting distracted, let’s get back to today’s episode. Two of you are going to win a copy of the terrific new book, The Smart Traveler’s Wine Guide to Rioja, written by Fintan Kerr and edited by our guest, Adam Lesher. All you have to do is email me and let me know that you’d like to win. I’ll choose two people randomly from those who contact me. In other book news, wine which on fire, rising from the ashes of divorce, defamation and drinking Too Much is a finalist for the 2024 Ottawa Book Awards in the nonfiction category.

Natalie MacLean 00:04:58 This competition isn’t food or wine related, so I’m thrilled that the little wine which is holding her own in the wider world of literacy. Winners will be announced October 16th. If you’re reading the paperback or e-book or listening to the audiobook, I’d love to hear from you at Natalie at Natalie MacLean. Com. I’ll put a link in the show notes to all retailers worldwide for all three formats of the book at Natalie MacLean dot com. Forward slash 304. Okay, on with the show. Riojas use of American Oak in particular is iconic, and it’s kind of the way that this region categorizes its wines, the way German producers use sweetness to categorize theirs. Why do you think Rioja is so focused on oak to classify its wines? Was that just the Bordeaux influence, or did this come before that connection?

Adam Lechmere 00:05:53 Yeah, the first sort of border lay. The first rocket to go to border was a guy called Don Manuel Quintana, and he was a Catholic priest, went there in the 1790s, and he was the first guy to bring back ideas for caging.

Adam Lechmere 00:06:07 And they did it in big barrels at that stage in, I think, sort of 500l, 800 litre barrels. And that’s where they first started, really, seriously getting into a caging at the end of the 18th century. And then another key character was an ancestor of Marquis, the Marquis de Murrieta. And, you know, Murrieta is one of the great wineries. One of his ancestors then also went to Bordeaux and also came back even more modern ideas of aging, putting the wine in smaller barrels in the Bordeaux Bordeaux by then using smaller 225 liter barrels, the classic barrel size. And I’m just checking my facts here. Was it Quintana? Anyway, we’ll get into that. It’s all in the book. You can check my facts when you read the book. Yes, they use Morocco. Spain obviously had very, very strong trading links with America at this stage, with South America and America due to the influence of the Spanish Empire. And so it was. American Oak was much cheaper to import to rocka than Spanish, than French oak go.

Natalie MacLean 00:07:06 Across the ocean versus just up north.

Adam Lechmere 00:07:09 Well, exactly. But it just wasn’t as prized. And it wasn’t as prized for winemaking as French oak was. And so, you know, it was cheaper. And so Rocca really began using American Oak, you know, for economic reasons. Now, also, of course, Tempranillo, you know, was then found. Don’t quote me on this. But you know, which came first, the economic reason for using American oak or the the wine reason.

Natalie MacLean 00:07:34 That it suited the grape.

Adam Lechmere 00:07:35 Yeah, exactly. American oak suits Tempranillo very, very well. American oak has a slightly wider grain than French oak. So it imparts more flavors. So it affects the grape more.

Natalie MacLean 00:07:48 And those flavors, are they more coconut versus French vanilla spice or I mean, I’m generalizing grossly here, but.

Adam Lechmere 00:07:55 No, I mean, you only get those coconut vanilla flavors when you use huge amounts of new oak. You know, they’re not using so much new oak. Now, you’ll still find the old fashioned rockers which which do have that kind of powerful, sort of slightly vanilla, slightly sweeter flavor.

Adam Lechmere 00:08:12 And what you’re finding now. So historically, American oak has always been seen as the ideal oak for Tempranillo and was used in vast quantities in rock. And now, you know, as rock modernizes. And over the last 25 years, far more American oak is being used and other aging methods. Indeed, concrete is being used as well. So the center of gravity is changing slightly. American oak is still used a lot, and it still does make fabulous wines, but you’re finding a many more wine bodegas using French oak now.

Natalie MacLean 00:08:49 French oak. And just for those who may not be familiar with the system, really just correct me if I’m got anything wrong here. But we all has four classifications. Start with young or yovan wines that have little to no oak aging. Then there’s credenza. Wines age from minimum of one year in oak barrels, reserve a minimum three years aging, and finally the highest category, Grand Reserve a minimum five years. So we talked about the American oak and the differences in them.

Natalie MacLean 00:09:17 So with all these categories, how do vino auteur self-driven wines I don’t know what that means. Venus de auto or fit into this classification system or not. What are they? Are they like Super Tuscans or Bordeaux garage East wines?

Adam Lechmere 00:09:32 Well, vino de outer I’m an outer means author in Spanish. Okay. And vino. It’s not a term which carries any kind of regulatory weights at all, you know, it’s like a bit like saying winemakers choice in America. But of vino there is this phrase I hate. Actually, it’s sort of incredibly pretentious, but it wants to put across the idea. This wine was made in an extremely artisanal, extremely handmade wine by Extra Special, an outdoor. It’s a wine made. It’s sort of super intellectual wine, you know, wants to impart that. But we’re touching on the idea of the new regulations here. So what you have with the new regulations that came in in 2017 that sit alongside the old regulations of oak aging, and those are still incredibly important. And we’ll get on to how important they are in a minute.

Adam Lechmere 00:10:18 So they’ve in no way been superseded. But the new regulations allow you to put, you know, you’ve got vino de zona, which is a wine of zone, which is a sort of bigger, bigger area. You’ve got vino de municipio, which is like a town wine, and you’ve got vino venido singular, which is single vineyard. And you’ve also got another level which is venido n, which means you can put wine of a certain place, which just complicates things. I mean. Spanish bureaucracy is super complicated, but I won’t get into all the differences between them. But just to take one of them the vineyards singular, that is, a wine made from vines that are at least 35 years old. They must be handpicked. The wine must come from a single vineyard. And, you know, it’s incredibly important. You know, you could always make wine from it, whichever way you chose in Roca. But if you wanted to put the way you made the wine on the label, then you came up against the actual labeling regulations.

Adam Lechmere 00:11:18 And so there was a limit to the size. You could put your single vineyard name on the wine, for example. And now if you put vineyards singular, this is a signal, you know, that this wine is officially of this, you know, of this type from this vineyard. And so it allows winemakers who have always wanted, you know, to make wines from single vineyards and always and often have done, but previously couldn’t do so and remain within the Rocca appellation. Officially, they can now say this is an official Rioja wine from this gorgeous vineyard, and they can explain the properties of that vineyard. So it’s a really, really important thing, especially, you know, commercially because everybody in the world wants their wine to come from a really small place, don’t they? That’s the sort of accepted benchmark of quality, whether it’s right or not, we can get into that. But it’s an accepted benchmark. Absolutely isn’t it?

Natalie MacLean 00:12:11 The smaller the better generally. But yeah, absolutely. So you mentioned that there’s a shift away from oak aging and for winemaking that goes back to the Romans concrete tanks we’re seeing in the region or you’re seeing.

Natalie MacLean 00:12:26 So is this just because consumers are wanting less oaked wines? What’s driving this resurgence to the past?

Adam Lechmere 00:12:36 Resurgence to the past? When you say recession, you mean when going back to old methods like concrete aging and concrete tanks? Yeah, I’d say it’s driven by, you know, changing global trends in wine styles. You never hear the word Parker ization anymore, do you? Because the sort of wines that Robert Parker, whether he did or not, is another thing. Robert Parker was popularly supposed to promote wines that were sort of heavily oaked, very extracted, very fruity, etc. you don’t hear that sort of thing anymore because taste of change and obviously everybody, you know, all the major players catch up with those trends. And then at the same time you do have this, you know, need to go back to analogue, as it were, to go back to the old methods and it’s going back to old methods, but it’s also actually much more looking forward. You know, it’s just experimentation.

Adam Lechmere 00:13:29 And there’s such pioneers, you know, they want to experiment. And so you have a winery like La Bomba, which if you go to Roca, you know, seek out the wines. And it’s the most extraordinary place part of the built that Ramon Bilbao, which is one of the famous old wineries. and Le nombre is is they built 47 brand new concrete tanks. And you know, if you look up online, look up pictures, they are the most beautiful, gleaming, perfectly chiseled, ultramodern concrete tanks. And they make two reds in a white and a rose. And they are absolutely beautiful. And they see very, very, very little oak. So they’re a totally different style.

Natalie MacLean 00:14:14 And is the concrete tank inert? Like, it just doesn’t impart anything. It just sort of preserves the wine as is. Is that what a concrete tank is doing.

Adam Lechmere 00:14:23 That two types of concrete tank, you either line them or you don’t. And these tanks are unlined. And so, you know, the gradually the wine sort of gets into it and it becomes less sort of porous.

Adam Lechmere 00:14:32 It’s to do with the way the exchange of oxygen, but also very definite. It’s quite extraordinary when you put your head into one of these tanks and you can smell that, that cement smell and you think that must impart flavors to the wine, but it just kind of gives it a sort of it’s much more to do with, I think, with texture, really, or it’s a lot to do with texture. You know, it gives the wine a much more precise and a much more definite texture.

Natalie MacLean 00:14:56 Is that because of that micro oxygenation getting into the tank? Is that what’s happening?

Adam Lechmere 00:15:01 I think, well, you know, ask a winemaker and you’ll get a thousand different answers, you know, because every winemaker has their own opinion. But it’s to do with all those. It’s to do with the exchange of oxygen is to do with. But one thing it’s not to do with is you don’t get any of the tannins that are present in oak staves. I mean, oak has its own tannins, you know, you get none of those.

Adam Lechmere 00:15:23 And so it’s often a far less tannic wine.

Natalie MacLean 00:15:26 Right? Absolutely. So we talked about Bordeaux’s and their relationship. So let’s skip that because you covered that very well. If I understand correctly, there are three major subregions in Rioja. There’s a real high real Rioja elevation and rear. Oriental used to be Bhaiyya, but I think they changed it because they didn’t want people to perceive it as low as in low quality. But what are the major differences between those three regions? If you’re able to summarize at a high level.

Adam Lechmere 00:15:58 I mean, the major differences are I mean, alabaster is closer to the Atlantic, is more northern Syria, Alta is I mean, if you look at a map of Raqqa, you can’t get a map up there, can you? No, we can’t we can’t share screens, can we? But no, you’ll often find that wines from all of Asia come from a more Atlantic influence. And so, you know, can be a little bit less fruity, for example, a little bit having a more sort of European sized influence, perhaps, and wines from the more southerly wines where it’s hotter, you know, they might have more of a fruit profile.

Adam Lechmere 00:16:30 One of the most interesting things about Rock Oriental is that it’s traditionally, you know, not been as celebrated. The wineries of Orientale, apart from a few, have not been as celebrated and not been sold as much as the wineries validator and Roca Alta. Because Ryoko Oriental, which is, you know, further goes down sort of south to the towards the southeast, a bit warmer, much more made. The cultivation of Garnacha is much more prolific than the cultivation of Tempranillo and in the other regions. And so Garnacha was often, you know, only in the last 25 years or so, the last 20 years has Garnacha become a seen as a grape that is much viable in its own right as a single varietal wine, you know, it’s become very, very popular for its wonderful profile and the wonderful. So traditionally, Garnacha would have been blended in to other wines in Roca Garnacha from Roca Oriental, but now it’s coming into its own and producers like Rafael Palacios down in Roca Oriental is making some really amazing Garnacha.

Natalie MacLean 00:17:36 Yeah, and Grenache, of course, is Grenache in France. What would be the difference? I’ve always found Grenache or ganache, a very sensual, almost like Syrah. Very smooth yet full bodied. How would you differentiate Garnacha from Grenache grown in other regions?

Adam Lechmere 00:17:50 Yeah, that’s that’s a good question. I love Garnacha, as you said, for its it’s that lovely floral profile. It’s got, you know it’s not for nothing. They call it poor man’s Pinot, you know, because it has that sort of delicacy and it has that lovely tannin and it has that, you know, light tannins, softer tannins, and it can make a very light wine. And it’s the difference between, you know, the Grenache grown in France and Garnacha. I’d have to have two glasses in front of me to really sort of remember, remember what the differences are. But Grenache from Roca, Garnacha from Roca has that essential sort of reaction, sort of earthiness and the perfume, but the earthiness and the grip as well.

Adam Lechmere 00:18:31 And the age ability.

Natalie MacLean 00:18:33 Yeah. I love the earthiness of those wines and almost call them dusty, but in a good way. Like I just love the profile. We’ve already touched on Tempranillo, which is, I believe, planted in 80% of vineyards in the region, so it’s the backbone of most red wines. How would you differentiate it from, say, Cabernet Sauvignon? Because Tempranillo is a much more full bodied. I think I believe it has more tannin than Garnacha, but correct me on any of that. If that’s not right.

Adam Lechmere 00:19:00 I certainly it does. Yeah. The difference between Tempranillo and Cabernet Sauvignon. Well, I think one, as we’ve touched on, one of the reasons that for this very strong relationship between Rioja and Bordeaux was, you know, the way you could make a red wine that came as close as possible to what they were making in Bordeaux. So the two grapes have real similarities. Now, I did a tasting that there’s a famous tasting every called the tasting in the Barrios Station, in arrow, in the famous station barrio.

Adam Lechmere 00:19:29 And the last time I went, a couple of years ago, they had invited a series of Bordeaux chateau over, and we compared the wines from Rebecca and the wines from Bordeaux. The differences between them and I need to look at my notes. I couldn’t find my notes before we started this, but as I remember the reaction wines just came across as a warmer region than Bordeaux with more sunlight hours and, you know, difference in day like difference in summertime temperatures, longer growing cycle. And so the wines came out as just with that edge of aroma and that edge of florals in that edge of almost kind of perfumed opulence that you can get with, with really great Rebecca.

Natalie MacLean 00:20:11 Sounds beautiful. now you also talk about the importance of old vintages, the 1964 and 2001 vintages being spectacular for real. But what makes a great vintage in Rioja isn’t any different from other wine regions. Are there particular things that, come to pass to make a great vintage there?

Adam Lechmere 00:20:34 I don’t know, I imagine it’s the same as any wine region.

Adam Lechmere 00:20:37 You know, you have that perfect combination of, you know, the right amount of sun, the right amount of rain. You have a warm early spring, a warm later spring. For Bud Break, you have the perfect growing cycle, 100 days between Bud Break and Verizon, which is when the Great turn start turning color. And once you get all those things together, then you get a really, really good vintage and then you feed into all of that, you know, the skills of wine making, and then you type the all the different vineyards, the different parts of what is quite interesting in Roca is it kind of has this sort of, you know, it’s both Atlantic influence and Mediterranean influence, depending on the season and depending on what the weather was like. And so some wineries and a winery called Roda Roda was one of the brilliant and much more recent wineries in arrow. You know, they will classify their wines as either Atlantic or Mediterranean. They don’t do it so overtly now, but when you’re talking about the wines, you’re always talking about whether the prevailing winds came down from the north or came from the south in that particular season.

Natalie MacLean 00:21:48 That’s fascinating. And how would they differentiate? What would they say Atlantic Year was versus a mediterranean? Would the Mediterranean just be warmer and more concentrated, full bodied, higher alcohol wine that year versus Atlantic? More moderate, perhaps more acidity? Would that be sort of roughly the differentiating features?

Adam Lechmere 00:22:08 I think you’ve put it exactly. Natalie. Yeah, that’s what I would have said. You know, you’ll find more opulence, more generosity, you know, more in the Mediterranean influenced wines and in the Atlantic influence wines. You’ll find just more of that precision and more of that. Yes, a slightly less opulent profile. And the fruit will be at the tannins will be of a different quality. But then when you’re talking, you know, these differences can be very subtle, can be very subtle, you know, because subtle but noticeable. Yeah.

Natalie MacLean 00:22:35 Sure sure sure, sure. I want to go back to the architecture because it’s just I mean, we talked about Mark Driscoll, but, you know, it’s just so famous, the juxtaposition of the old and the new.

Natalie MacLean 00:22:47 And we talked about the city of Balboa, which is just an hour from Rioja, famous for its innovative architectural shapes. Architect Frank Gehry, who was Canadian. He designed the New York Guggenheim Museum Bilbao and the Marquis de risco winery. And you talked about the beautiful ribbed titanium panels. They just reflect gold and silver. And I love the idea that it’s a flamenco dancer, kind of her dress, maybe kind of wispy over the vineyards. How has tourism has it brought people specifically there for the architecture, and how has the architecture itself shaped the international reputation of Rioja wines? Has it had an impact on that as well?

Adam Lechmere 00:23:29 Yes, in every way. So take the first part of your question. How has the architecture. Sorry. What was the first part of your question again, Natalie.

Natalie MacLean 00:23:38 How has it shaped religious tourism? Do people come to Rioja just for the architecture?

Adam Lechmere 00:23:45 This is such a great question.

Adam Lechmere 00:23:46 The answer has to be yes. You know, because Rocco’s architecture has been so famous for so long now.

Adam Lechmere 00:23:51 And I wouldn’t know how many tourists visit Rocca simply because it’s a great place to go or because they go for the wine just for the wine. And you can’t be a lover without being influenced in your love by the architecture. It would be a very, very different place if it didn’t have this splendid architecture. And it just informs every winery, I mean, vineyard Rondonia, for example. You know, Zaha Hadid, who’s that very celebrated UK British architect who died a few years ago. She did the new tasting room at vineyard, Rondonia. She’s built it around the funny little old wooden kiosk that they had before. And so, as I was saying about that Hotel Viera, you know, the juxtaposition of the old and the new. It’s brilliant. So, yes. So you can’t come to New York without being interested in architecture? Basically without. And. Absolutely. I have a total layman’s interest, but I love these wineries and they still look so dramatic. It’s cos, for example, you might have heard of is A Bike by Santiago Calatrava, which is that sort of amazing serrated, curved roof.

Adam Lechmere 00:24:56 Very impractical apparently. I think it leaked for a long time. They had to look for the buckets to catch the water for ages. But but by heavens, it’s beautiful. You know.

Natalie MacLean 00:25:04 It is.

Adam Lechmere 00:25:05 And was the last part of your question. How does that influence.

Natalie MacLean 00:25:08 The perception of these wines internationally? Has the architecture helped the perception of real house wines internationally?

Adam Lechmere 00:25:15 Again, obviously it has, yes, obviously, because the most famous architects in the world are building there and these buildings are internationally celebrated. But interestingly enough, I mean, marquetry scale, you know, which has the wildest ultra postmodern architecture in the country, you know, produces very old fashioned wines.

Natalie MacLean 00:25:35 Yes, with an old fashioned label, I think. Right.

Adam Lechmere 00:25:37 Like it’s just with an old fashioned label. Yeah.

Natalie MacLean 00:25:39 You don’t even see the winery on the label at all. Like the way you would in California, maybe.

Adam Lechmere 00:25:44 Exactly.

Natalie MacLean 00:25:44 I don’t know why not.

Adam Lechmere 00:25:46 It’s not the winery. It’s the hotel next to the winery.

Adam Lechmere 00:25:48 But still, it’s still absolutely synonymous with the names. But this, I think, is evidence of the way Rebecca is so manages to bring the past up to the future and bring the future back to the past, and everything is just present. You know, it’s like time past and time future are both perhaps present in in time future. You know, it’s all there. And you see this in so many ways. And I did a round table in Lagrange for our magazine for clubbing logic. You know, we’ve got traditional so-called traditional winemakers like Cuny, like Maria Urrutia from Cuny, next to, you know, people who are doing single vineyard wines. And you know, what was so obvious from that was that they’ve completely moved on. There’s no argument any more about. Is one better than the other? Is single vineyard better than multi-region? Okay. Good wine. And they’re saying, no, of course not. If you’re making a blend of 5 or 6 different regions and you’re putting it in oak for five years, you know, you still know those vineyards as intimately as if it were a single vineyard.

Adam Lechmere 00:26:49 Because when you pick the grapes, you’re picking them from a single vineyard anyway, and you’re blending them. And single vineyard has always been important. The primacy of the vineyard has always been there. So again, that’s that idea that the old is sort of living alongside the new.

Natalie MacLean 00:27:05 I love that timelessness, convergence and engagement of all your senses, not just your taste but the visual and everything else. It’s kind of like wine itself. Everything converges and you lose time and you’re always in the present.

Adam Lechmere 00:27:16 Exactly. And it’s this idea of the sort of holistic idea that, you know, everything is important all the time. You know, the vineyard is as important because we didn’t we those this kind of pendulum swing for a bit where everybody was talking about, you know, only the vineyard matters, you know, and were low intervention. And the winery doesn’t matter. Nothing that happens in the winery. Everything that happens in the vineyard is important. What happens in the winery is secondary. And now you talk to winemakers and they say, that’s nonsense.

Adam Lechmere 00:27:40 You know, what happens in the winery is of equal importance to the vineyard, to the pruning, to the soil, to the subsoil, to everything. Everything important all the time.

Natalie MacLean 00:27:50 Wow, cool. What do you see happening for Rioja in the next decade? What are the big changes do you think are coming and are you optimistic about its future?

Adam Lechmere 00:28:00 Absolutely optimistic. Yeah. Of course. You know, they make fabulous wines, they make amazing wines. And I’ll just take one example is Campo Viejo. Campo Viejo is owned by Pernod Ricard. You know, it’s a multinational. It’s one of the biggest wineries in the world. It’s huge. It makes vast, vast, vast quantities in the millions of cases. Campo Viejo, I always say that it’s by law is required to be sold in every corner shop in the United Kingdom. But if ever you’re going to a dinner party and you’re late, or you’re going to a party and you want to take along a wine, and the only shop open is that you get your camper.

Adam Lechmere 00:28:35 The echo cost you 799. This wine is a great wine. It’s a delicious, delicious wine which sings of Rocca. But you know, it’s made in the millions of cases. And to make a wine that good at that quantity is incredibly difficult. You know that level. They’re making fabulous wine. And then all the way up to the very, very finest single vineyard cuvée from winemakers working at the absolute height of their powers, you know, and that will only get better, you know, it’ll continue to be a very wealthy region. But now you’re seeing this kind of incredible experimentation as well, and that will only go on. And so we’re going to see a lot more concrete. We’re going to see a lot more experimentation with different fermentation times, different fermentation vessels, different aging vessels. You’re going to see much more Garnacha coming in. You’re going to see different profiles of wines. You’re going to see a lot more very, very expensive wines. But I think at the same time it’s not going to go like Burgundy.

Adam Lechmere 00:29:35 It’s not going to be, you know, you’re going to always have you’re going to have the top level, you’re going to have these great wines. And at every level you’re going to have affordable wines. So I think that it’s yeah, I think the future is going to be wonderful. One of experimentation and excitement.

Natalie MacLean 00:29:49 That sounds great. Happy note to finish on. Is there anything that we haven’t covered that you’d like to mention before we wrap up?

Adam Lechmere 00:29:56 I think we’ve covered.

Adam Lechmere 00:29:57 Everything.

Natalie MacLean 00:29:57 Just about. I should ask where we can get the book, because I know it’s new from Academy, TV Academy and on. Com you can probably pre-order it, but it’s going to be published very soon.

Adam Lechmere 00:30:08 That’s right. You’ll be able to pre-order.

Adam Lechmere 00:30:10 I think, in about a month. Hopefully we’re going to be out towards the end of October. Now. It’s not a great time for publishing a travel book, but it’ll be in bookshops. All the wineries will have one. It’ll be available online. Academy demand library.com.

Adam Lechmere 00:30:21 And I think, yes, I mean, just to put a plug for the book, I think this is the sort of plug I’d like to give, really, if you’re the kind of person who, whenever they go to a wine region, you immediately ring up your friend who’s a wine journalist or email them and say, look, I’m off to Stellenbosch, I’m off to Tuscany, I’m off to Sonoma, I’m off to Rioja. Where should I go? And then your friend has to email about, oh, go here, this is the book for you. You know, we put an arm around your shoulders and we say, you know, these are the great restaurants. If you want to eat in a winery, go here. If you want to stay in a winery, go there. If you want to visit. Here’s 20 wineries that do brilliant tours and tastings. If you want Tabasco here. If you want Michelin starred avant garde. And we didn’t talk about the avant garde restaurants in Raqqa, you know, the really, really super modern, you know, restaurants, you can dine at every level, you can drink at every level, or you can be eating like tap ass, you know, an upturn barrel outside a little tiny bar hole in the wall bar.

Natalie MacLean 00:31:18 I love that, you know, brilliant concept for a book. I’m getting one for my own personal use. I’ll buy your whole series as they come out. And I do recommend I mean, it’s just a great concept and it’s going to be better for me overall because when people ask me from now on, they email me all the time, I’m going here, I’ll send them your link because this just covers it all. So great concept. I hope you go around the world with it and do every region wine writers around the world will thank you.

Adam Lechmere 00:31:44 Well, yes. Well, any wine writers who are listening? Yeah, we are expecting this to be a big series. And so we will be covering, you know, every wine region worth covering basically. And that’s every wine region. So there you go.

Natalie MacLean 00:31:55 Absolutely. Well, Adam, this has been an extreme pleasure. Thank you so much. I’ve enjoyed this. I learned a lot about you, including the need to practice saying it.

Natalie MacLean 00:32:05 But thank you so much for taking the time to join us. And next time I think it has to be over a glass of Rioja maybe Garnacha.

Adam Lechmere 00:32:13 Definitely look forward to it.

Natalie MacLean 00:32:16 All right. Cheers. Bye for now.

Adam Lechmere 00:32:18 Thank you very much, Natalie. Cheers.

Natalie MacLean 00:32:25 Well, there you have it. I hope you enjoyed our chat with Adam. Here are my takeaways. Number one, how did oak aging become so fundamental to the identity of real Hawaiians? As Adam explains, real Hawaiians are characterized according to the time they spend aging in oak barrels. Spain traditionally had strong trading links with America, so it was actually cheaper to ship American oak to Rioja than to import French oak from France. You know, its northern neighbor winemakers used it for economic reasons rather than for stylistic ones, though of course, over time it became stylistic. American Oak is particularly well suited to the country’s flagship red grape, Tempranillo, because it has a slightly wider grain than French oak, so it imparts more flavors. Number two what’s driving the resurgence of traditional aging methods such as concrete tanks? Adam says that it’s driven by changing global trends in wine styles, and he observes that we rarely hear about Parker ization anymore, referring to the full bodied, heavily oaked fruit bombs that the US critic Robert Parker supposedly liked and scored highly.

Natalie MacLean 00:33:33 It’s also that REO Hawaiian makers are forward looking in their experimentation because they’re such pioneers. Number three how does REO Hawaiian style change in a vintage characterized as an Atlantic year versus a mediterranean year? Adam observes that you’ll find more opulence and generosity in a mediterranean year, so it’s warmer, dryer versus Atlantic influenced years that are more precise, slightly less opulent. And of course, they’re usually a cooler vintage. These differences can be very subtle, but noticeable. And number four, how has Rio’s famous architecture impacted tourism and the international perception of Rioja wines? Adam notes the Riojas architecture has been so famous for so long that it’s hard to know whether tourists visit, primarily because of the architecture or the wine. Their splendid architecture informs every winery. Lopez de Heredia. Vina Donia has a very new modern tasting room built around a traditional old wooden kiosk. The Hotel Viera is like a collection of blocks dropped randomly out of the sky, he says, and Bodega Zayas has a strikingly gorgeous serrated, curved roof that leaks. But it’s beautiful.

Natalie MacLean 00:34:51 In the show notes, you’ll find the full transcript of my conversation with Adam, links to his website and books the video versions of these conversations on Facebook and YouTube live, and where you can order my book online no matter where you live. If you missed episode 68, go back and take a listen. I chat about pairing wine and spicy dishes with chef Vikram Vej and sommelier Sean Nelson. I’ll share a short clip with you now to whet your appetite.

Vikram Vij 00:35:17 Bone dry Rieslings can work really well in place of stuff like sparkling wine, where you need to cut through that fattiness the richness of fried foods or cream or anything heavy. If you have a wine that’s got a little bit of sweetness like this one does, you can play it off of things that have some chili, have some extra spice, have a little bit of heat that needs taming. The best thing about this wine is that it’s not just about the sugar, it’s also about the acidity. It’s about how it balances itself. It walks this tightrope of sweetness and acidity that keeps it very, very fresh and very balanced.

Vikram Vij 00:35:51 And a lot of people talk about coverts demeanor as a pairing for spicy food. And while Gabbard’s demeanor has one side of that tightrope, it has the sweetness, it has the aromatics. It doesn’t always have enough acidity to play off of that sweetness, so I generally find Riesling to be a better pair for more spicy dishes, more complexity and freshness then converts demeanor or other aromatic whites with sweetness.

Natalie MacLean 00:36:20 You won’t want to miss next week when we chat with Joe Penn, The New York Times and USA today best selling author about her latest novel, blood, vintage. Dun dun dun. It’s set in an English vineyard, and I just finished reading it and I absolutely loved it. She’ll join us from her home in Somerset, England. If you liked this episode or learned even one thing from it, please email or tell a friend about the podcast this week, especially someone you know who’d be interested in learning more about the wines of Rioja. It’s easy to find my podcast. Just tell them to search for Natalie MacLean Wine on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, their favorite podcast app, or they can listen to the show on my website at Natalie MacLean.

Natalie MacLean 00:37:02 Com forward slash podcast. Email me if you have a SIP. Tip question. Would like to win a copy of Adam’s book, or if you’ve read or are listening to my book at Natalie at Natalie MacLean. Com in the show notes, you’ll find a link to take a free online food and wine pairing class with me. It’s called the five Wine and Food Pairing Mistakes That Can Ruin Your Dinner and How to Fix Them Forever at Natalie MacLean dot com forward slash class. And that’s all in the show notes at Natalie MacLean dot com forward slash 304. Thank you for taking the time to join me here. I hope something great is in your glass this week. Perhaps a real ha. That’s a perfect blend of past and present. You don’t want to miss one juicy episode of this podcast, especially the secret full bodied bonus episodes that I don’t announce on social media. So subscribe for free now at Natalie MacLean. Com forward slash subscribe. Meet me here next week. Cheers!

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