Introduction
Why should you consider mood and experience when pairing wines? What is a lustful wine? What do you need to know about British Columbia’s wine regions?
In this episode of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, I’m chatting with author and host of The Sipsters Wine Podcast, Luke Whittall.
You can find the wines we discussed here.
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Giveaway
Three of you are going to win a personally signed copy of Luke’s new book, The Sipster’s Pocket Guide to 50 Must-Try Ontario Wines.
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Highlights
- What makes the Golden Mile Bench so special?
- Which wineries on the Golden Mile Bench should not be missed?
- Why should you consider mood and experience when pairing wines?
- What is a lustful wine?
- Why does Luke describe Vancouver Island as the Italy of BC?
- Which labels should you look for from Vancouver Island?
- What makes the red wines of the Similkameen Valley unique?
- What do you need to know about the other BC wine regions including Fraser Valley, Gulf islands, Kootenays, Lillooet, Shuswap, and Thompson Valley?
- What does BC need to do in order to thrive as a wine region for the next five to ten years?
- How do Luke’s The Sipster’s Pocket Guides differ from other wine guides?
Key Takeaways
- I love that Luke likes to pair wines to moods rather than simply food. I think our emotional state and occasion are often far better predictors of a great match than whether your asparagus was oven-roasted or steamed. I especially like his description of a lustful wine.
- Luke continues to share surprising insights about British Columbia’s wine regions and wines. I’m intrigued with the way Golden Mile Bench wines retain their acidity and structure, and am motivated to visit that area again.
- I enjoyed his notion that there are times when you can tell that the wine really likes you.
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About Luke Whittall
Luke Whittall has worked in cellars, vineyards, and wine shops since 2005. He has authored or co-authored 4 books on wine and is currently a wine instructor at Okanagan College. His most recent book, The Sipster’s Pocket Guide to 50 Must-Try BC Wines, Volume 2 (Touchwood Editions 2023) follows up on the success of volume 1 of The Sipster’s Pocket Guide to 50 Must-Try BC Wines, and continues to mark a new direction in wine writing. It features more of the most amazing wines ever produced in British Columbia. His first book, Valleys of Wine: A Taste of British Columbia’s Wine History was published in 2019 and he co-authored the 6th edition of The Okanagan Wine Tour Guide with John Schreiner in 2020.
Resources
- Connect with Luke Whittall
- Unreserved Wine Talk
- Diary of a Book Launch: An Insider Peek from Idea to Publication
- Wine Witch on Fire Free Companion Guide for Book Clubs
- My Books:
- Unreserved Wine Talk | Episode 260: BC’s Wild Diversity, Deep Lake Effect and Promising Future with Luke Whittall, Author of 50 Must-Try Wines in BC and Ontario
- My new class The 5 Wine & Food Pairing Mistakes That Can Ruin Your Dinner And How To Fix Them Forever
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Thirsty for more?
- Sign up for my free online wine video class where I’ll walk you through The 5 Wine & Food Pairing Mistakes That Can Ruin Your Dinner (and how to fix them forever!)
- You’ll find my books here, including Unquenchable: A Tipsy Quest for the World’s Best Bargain Wines and Red, White and Drunk All Over: A Wine-Soaked Journey from Grape to Glass.
- The new audio edition of Red, White and Drunk All Over: A Wine-Soaked Journey from Grape to Glass is now available on Amazon.ca, Amazon.com and other country-specific Amazon sites; iTunes.ca, iTunes.com and other country-specific iTunes sites; Audible.ca and Audible.com.
Transcript
Luke Whittall (00:00):
There’s more to just wine pairing than food because if you have the wrong wine at the wrong time, either you won’t like the wine or it will taste worse than you probably would have otherwise. I get a lot of people who, or I used to when I worked in wine shops, they’re like yeah when I got home the wine didn’t taste the same somehow. Why was that? Well, I was alone and I had spaghetti with it, and I said well when you were here you were with friends, you were having a good time. The mood is very different. And so if the mood changes, then your perception of the wine can change too.
Natalie MacLean (00:31):
So what is a lustful wine and what would be wine specifically that you’ve described as lustful?
Luke Whittall (00:38):
It’s a wine that picked you up at the bar, not that you picked up. It’s wine that loves you back. Basically, this wine is speaking to me, oh I want to get to know this wine.
Natalie MacLean (00:54):
Do you have a thirst to learn about wine? Do you love stories about wonderfully obsessive people, hauntingly beautiful places and amusingly awkward social situations? Well, that’s the blend here on the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast. I’m your host, Natalie MacLean, and each week I share with you unfiltered conversations with celebrities in the wine world, as well as confessions from my own tipsy journey as I write my third book on this subject. I’m so glad you’re here. Now pass me that bottle please and let’s get started. Welcome to episode 261.
(01:40):
Why should you consider mood and experience when pairing wines? What is a lustful wine and what do you need to know about British Columbia’s wine regions? In today’s episode, you’ll hear the stories and tips that answer those questions in Part Two of our chat with Luke Whittall, author of the Sipster’s Pocket Guide to the 50 Bus Try Wines in BC and Ontario. You don’t need to have listened to Part One from last week first, but if you missed it, I hope you’ll go back after you finish this one.
Three of you listening to this podcast are going to win a personally signed copy of his terrific new book. All you have to do is email me at [email protected] and tell me you want to win a copy. I’ll choose three people randomly from those who contact me over the next two weeks. I should add that it is worth your while to try for these regular book prizes as there are still a few books from previous episodes that have not been given away. Don’t assume that just because you’re not first to email me that you don’t have a chance. That said, don’t wait too long.
(02:46):
Before we dive into our conversation with Luke, I’d like to share a review of my memoir from Lisa Denning in the Grape Collective magazine, which is edited by the former wine columnists for the Wall Street Journal, Dorothy Gaiter and John Brecher. ” In her new book, Wine Witch on Fire: Rising from the Ashes of Divorce, Defamation, and Drinking Too Much, wine writer and educator, Natalie MacLean, brings a unique blend of personal reflection, wine expertise, and historical intrigue to her story. In this candid memoir, MacLean delves into sensitive topics from her struggles with drinking to facing professional attacks and online bullying. Her story weaves in centuries old tales of witches adding an unconventional layer to her narrative”.
If you’ve read this book or are reading it, I’d love to hear from you at [email protected]. If you haven’t got your copy yet and would like to support it and this podcast that I do on a volunteer basis, please order it from any online book retailer no matter where you live. Every little bit helps spread the message in the book. It also makes for a wonderful stocking stuffer or holiday gift book. I’ll send you beautiful personally signed book plates for every copy that you buy, just email me at [email protected]. I’ll put my email address and links in the show notes to all retailers worldwide at nataliemaclean.com/261. Okay, on with the show.
Natalie MacLean
So as I mentioned, there’s 11 sub appellations in the Okanagan Valley. I’ll just rhyme them off now for those who are curious: the East Kelowna Slopes, the Golden Mile Bench, the Golden Miles Slopes, Lake Country, Okanagan Falls where you are Luke. Naramata Bench, Skaha Bench, South Kelowna Slopes, Summerland Bench, Summerland Lakefront, and Summerland Valleys. Why do we often hear, you’ve already brought it up so much, about the Golden Mile. What’s so special about it?
Luke Whittall (04:55):
Well, the Golden Mile Bench was the first one. First of all, it’s been. 2015 was their very first year that they were allowed to use the Golden Mile Bench and it was certified. It took six years or something for them to get that far. And so it kind of established the precedent for it from a business side of it. For the wine though, what’s interesting is that the vineyards are east facing, so they get the morning sunlight but they lose the sunlight earlier in the day because of the mountain behind them. And what that does is it helps preserve the acidity in the wine. So while the other side of the valley gets kind of baked long into the evening, the Golden Mile Bench wines retain their acidity. And I find them much more structured than wines that are more consistently structured. And so they get this morning sun, they lose it in the afternoon.
They’re also very high slopes. There’s no wind fans. Sometimes you see these wind fans in the middle of the vineyards to protect it against frost. They don’t need that there because the cold air doesn’t have a place to pool. And so they’re protected from frost, so their season is longer. I actually did a video on YouTube once where this was at the beginning of November. We still had green leaves on the vines on the Golden Mile and I kept the camera rolling and I drove down the hill and the vines at the bottom of the hill had lost their leaves weeks ago.
Natalie MacLean (06:09):
Wow, that’s dramatic.
Luke Whittall (06:11):
And it is super easy, and it was really like a kilometer away. That’s the only difference. But there was also a difference in elevation as well, too. So the Golden Mile Bench is a very, very, very special place. And some of the best vineyard land, I would argue in the country.
Natalie MacLean (06:25):
I love that mountain shadow, sort of that protection in the afternoon. So what would be a couple of wineries that you would highlight from the Golden Mile that we should try?
Luke Whittall (06:35):
Oh, well, basically Culmina is up there and then CheckMate are on the same sort of southeast facing or southeast facing ridges. And then Gehringer Brothers as well is also. Those two plots of land,I believe are the two best vineyard sites in BC for sure, if not the country, because of their southeastern facing and things like that. There are other vineyards there. Hester Creek is there. Row 13 is there. They’re on sort of northeastern facing, so they’re sloped away from the south a little bit, but they’re still very, very good properties. And then Fairview Cellers, which is right at the top, the northern most part of it faces southeast as well. And just gorgeous reds. I mean reds that you just don’t think come from BC, they come from Fairview Cellers. They’re just fantastic.
Natalie MacLean (07:20):
Wow. And CheckMate, that’s another Mission Hill property, right?
Luke Whittall (07:24):
That’s correct. They focus on Chardonnay and Merlot. And that’s their thing. Chardonnay, well you might’ve read in my history book, that Mission Hill won a very large award for their 1992 Grand Reserve Chardonnay in 1994 when most Canadian wineries were really only winning wines for ice wine and things like that. Inniskillin had won. They’re big post-prohibition era and stuff like that, but nobody had won anything for dry wine. And so Mission Hill wins this from Chardonnay. The Chardonnay came from a vineyard called the Decla Vineyard, which is on the Golden Mile and they purchased that vineyard years later, and it’s right next door to where CheckMate is now. They have a long history with that vineyard and they’re making some absolutely stunning, stunning, stunning Chardonnays there.
Natalie MacLean (08:09):
A side note, Mission Hill is worth dropping into. It’s architecturally beautiful. I think it’s Spanish theme. And then they have this restaurant that you sit and you look the terrace overlooking the Okanagan Valley outdoors. It’s beautiful. But interestingly, Anthony von Mandl, who owns Mission Hill, is he the founder of both Mike’s Hard Lemonade and White Claw?
Luke Whittall (08:32):
Yeah, those are part of his portfolio at some point. Mike’s Hard Lemonade was in the nineties, and I went to university in the nineties, so
Natalie MacLean (08:39):
Very familiar.
Luke Whittall (08:40):
I distinctly remember Mike’s Hard Lemonade at that time. And I remember the first time I went there, I looked up at the Bell Tower and I’m like, oh God, my university career must have paid for at least part of that bell somehow.
Natalie MacLean (08:53):
Exactly. So major cash to invest in all his properties from these ready to drinks in cans. So probably likes to keep those brands separate, but what the heck? I find it fascinating. That’s the backstory there.
Luke Whittall (09:08):
It is. And that should be part of the winery story in that way. And it is. They don’t hide that fact.
Natalie MacLean
Oh, good.
Luke Whittall
But that has to be part of it as well too, because I think that has something to do absolutely with the success of the winery and why not?
Natalie MacLean (09:21):
It takes serious investment. The old joke is how do you make a million in the wine industry? Start with 10 million. And he obviously did. One more I wanted to hit on before we leave the Okanagan. Quail’s Gate, where exactly is that on your regional map?
Luke Whittall (09:38):
It’s in West Kelowna. It’s actually sort of down the road and across the street from Mission Hill. I was obsessed with that property for a number of years. They have a long, long history. That there’s a cabin on that property that used to be their wine shop, but that was built in the 19th century. It was a pioneer’s cabin built by the McDougall family. I knew that. And he’s the guy who built it. But it was actually John Fall Allison, who was a rancher in Princeton. He had a summer ranch in West Kelowna and he called it Sunnyside. And that is the history of that property. And now it’s a vineyard. It’s been a vineyard since the fifties or sixties when the Stewart family purchased it. But it’s just a beautiful, beautiful place. They have a wonderful restaurant there. They have a wonderful tasting room. They’ve just done such a good job with that place, and I love, love going there.
Natalie MacLean (10:29):
And spectacular wines that we actually do get in Ontario, so that’s kind of a bonus.
Luke Whittall (10:34):
Yes, that’s true. Yes, you would.
Natalie MacLean (10:35):
Alright, so oh my goodness, I got to get through more of this quickly here. So your Sipster’s Guide features the best 50 wines to try. Now, I don’t know if you did this in both the BC Sipster’s guide to the 50 best wines to try in both BC and Ontario, but you also have mood pairings. Did you do that again in the Ontario Guide?
Luke Whittall (10:58):
Yeah, I did. And the differences between these books really, there aren’t a lot of differences between these two other than they’re obviously 50 different wines, but I try to match wines with food. I think that gives people options. And I used to teach a class on wine and food pairing, but there’s more to just wine pairing than food because if you have the wrong wine at the wrong time, you won’t like the wine or it will taste better than you think it or worse than you probably would have otherwise. I get a lot of people who, or I used to when I worked in wine shops, they’re like yeah when I got home the wine didn’t taste the same somehow. And it’s like, well, why was that? Well, I was alone and I was just having dinner and I had spaghetti with it and it wasn’t really a good experience. And I said, well when you were here, you were with friends, you were having a good time. This was probably the third winery you’ve been to that day. The mood is very different. And so if the mood changes, then your perception of the wine can change, too. And so with Sipster’s, if you have a chatty wine, like a wine that has really complex and lots of things to say…
Natalie MacLean (12:07):
A chatty wine, I love that.
Luke Whittall (12:10):
If you’re in a reception where everyone else is chatting too, you’re probably not going to be able to pay attention to the conversation as well. So when you’re at a reception, a really simple wine is probably the best thing and you’ll probably appreciate it more.
Natalie MacLean
Sure.
Luke Whittall
Whereas if you’re having dinner alone or with just gather with your partner and you don’t need as much of a conversation a time when it’s comfortable to be quiet, a chatty wine might be perfect because then you’ll be able to hear what it’s saying. And so, I mean, that’s just sort of one example of wine and mood pairing, but I think it helps influence how people like wine.
Natalie MacLean (12:44):
And now you call one or maybe several wines lustful. So what is a lustful wine and what would be wine specifically that you’ve described as lustful?
Luke Whittall (12:54):
It’s a wine that picked you up at the bar, not that you picked up at the bar.
Natalie MacLean (12:59):
[laughter] That’s great.
Luke Whittall (12:59):
That’s the kind of wine…
Natalie MacLean (13:01):
I like that, hey come here often. I’ll be here all week. Is that my wine?
Luke Whittall (13:08):
Oh, that’s a nice cork screw you got there.
Natalie MacLean
[laughter]
Luke Whittall
No, but basically…
Natalie MacLean (13:12):
Keep it clean, Luke.
Luke Whittall (13:14):
I know. So it’s wine that loves you back basically. I mean, it’s one thing to be able to say yes I love this wine and this wine is speaking to me or this wine is real and I want to get to know this wine. But sometimes the wine is like, you can tell the wine likes you and you want it to be, you’re just appreciating the attention that this wine is giving you. And not all wines do that. Every wine has a bit of an attitude and this is the thing.
Natalie MacLean
Yes.
Luke Whittall
And it all comes from. But all these books, all the Sipster’s books come from how I used to talk about wine to customers when I worked at a wine store. And I got really bored with the fact that people would ask about a wine and I’d say well it tastes like strawberries and rhubarb and it’s lovely with this and that and the other. And I just do the tasting note thing. And I thought at some point, well, how boring is that? And customers didn’t respond to it. Whereas when a customer held up two bottles and said, what’s the difference between these two? And I said, well that one’s a Honda Civic and that one’s a Ferrari. And they’re like, okay,
Natalie MacLean (14:15):
[laughter] It’s probably more relatable.
Luke Whittall (14:17):
Exactly. And it didn’t say anything about the wine, but what it did was it set the experience. And I think customers really want to know about the experience rather than technical details. As wine writers and people in the industry, we get really caught up with the technical part of it because for us that’s actually really interesting and it is very interesting, and some people enthusiasts really like that. But I think most people like the general public who don’t know what those stats mean and don’t know what RS and CA and all that…
Natalie MacLean (14:45):
Residual sugar. Volatile acidity.
Luke Whittall (14:48):
To tradable acidity and things like that where we don’t know about that kind of stuff, it’s meaningless. So whereas if I say that this wine was named after an angel, then they’ll probably…
Natalie MacLean (15:02):
There’s a story. Back to stories again..
Luke Whittall (15:04):
Yeah. and they can relate to it. Yeah, exactly.
Natalie MacLean (15:06):
Well, and I think too, there’s a point, and we don’t give it enough credit. You talk about a lustful wine, but our body chemistries are all different. So the wine is going to react with you differently from somebody else. And they’re coming out with all sorts of studies now that say the type of music that you’re playing can affect your taste of the wine, whether you like it or not, or how much of it you’re getting. So I think we’ve got all these cross modal sensory things going on when we taste wine and we’re all different. So I think it’s not just a playful, more accessible way to talk about wine. I think there are actually things going on that make a wine more lustful to one person versus another. So yeah,
Luke Whittall (15:48):
I mean that’s a bigger conversation than the scope of these books. But I mean, I just tried to sort of match it at least with attitude and everything like that, just to kind of open up the conversation a little bit. But there’s far more to explore than not. Absolutely. Yeah, it’s really cool.
Natalie MacLean (16:02):
Alright, let’s talk about two more sub-appellations in the Okanagan, since it still is the biggest in BC.
Vancouver Island, we’ll just compress this a little bit. Vancouver Island has one sub-appellation the Cowichan Valley. Vancouver Island of course is where Victoria the city is. So how is that different? Of course it’s going to be different being an island, but what really strikes you as the differences there versus the Okanagan? And why do you describe it as the Italy of BC.
Luke Whittall (16:28):
Yeah, I have done that. I still think that I still, it’s the Italy of BC really. It’s the food that it goes with. Those wines just wrap themselves around the food that you’re eating and they just give it a hug. It is a really, really food friendly kind of wine style.
Natalie MacLean (16:44):
Is that because of the acidity?
Luke Whittall (16:47):
The acidity is a little higher, which for me took some getting used to when I first went there, but it’s really changed now and especially in the Cowichan. And I’m glad they separated out the Cowichan Valley because it is very different there than it is in other places. It’ll be raining in miserable in Victoria and then you drive up the Malahat and come into Duncan and it’s beautiful. And it feels like the Okanagan in spots.
Natalie MacLean (17:07):
Married in the Malahat at the Eyrie, the resort at the top of the mountain overlooking the Finlayson arm. I think it is. Something like.
Luke Whittall (17:14):
That. Oh, that’s cool. Yeah. Oh, what a beautiful place to get married.
Natalie MacLean (17:17):
Well I’m divorced now, but the region remains in my heart. Just the region [laughter]. Anyway, side note,
Luke Whittall (17:24):
Side note [laughter].
Natalie MacLean (17:26):
But what couple wineries would you highlight there? What are a couple of labels we should look for from Vancouver Island?
Luke Whittall (17:32):
Absolutely Blue Grouse. Blue Grouse is one of them. Bailey Williamson is the winemaker there and just beautiful portfolio of wines and it’s a beautiful place to visit too, which is spectacular. They’re one of them, absolutely, for sure. And then Emandare Wines, which is kind of a weird name, but it’s literally a transliteration of M and R, which is Mike and Robin. And they’ve been there for about 10 years. They’re very small. They’re just outside of Duncan and just crazy amazing Pinot Noir. And they do Foch and it’s good. And they do Sauvignon Blanc which is lovely and it’s quite fantastic. And then, which is actually just past them as well, Alderlea has some gorgeous Pinot Noir that’s going to be or may or may not be appearing in a future BC Sipster’s book at some point.
Natalie MacLean (18:17):
Okay. Alright. And let’s zoom over to the Simikameen Valley. Where is it in relation to the Okanagan and Vancouver Island and what makes it different?
Luke Whittall (18:27):
So the Simikameen right next to the Okanagan Valley, to the southern portion of the Okanagan Valley. And the Simikameen follows the Okanagan and then it kind of turns west from there. So it’s a bit of an odd shaped valley. It’s deep valley and it’s very narrow. And what makes it fantastically interesting is the Okanagan was a bit of a melt water channel, so the soils got kind of jumbled. Whereas Simikameen and so there’s very beautiful plateaus and bench lands there that have really good, it’s perfect for grapevines, so there’s no lake there. So it can be a little bit picky in the spring and the Summer or Spring and the Fall. But Fall, it’s just a gorgeous, gorgeous place for growing grapes. And there’s a really distinct kind of minerality to the red wines that I get. And I like to think anyways that I can pick out red wines from the Simikameen very quickly because of that. It’s like a signature of the red wines from the Simikameen, and I don’t know what it is, like rocky dusty kind of silty aroma to it, which is fantastically interesting and just deep and savoury reds in the Simikameen.
Natalie MacLean (19:31):
My mouth’s watering. So pick out a couple of wineries that you would highlight from that region.
Luke Whittall (19:35):
Oh, Corcelettes, which is Charlie and Jesce Baessler. They are sort of in a unique spot that looks south. So they have a south facing vineyard. They make all kinds of amazing things. Beautiful Syrahs, wonderful Pinot Noirs. Clos du Soleil is right next to them. They do like a Meritage styles of wine. Lots of blends, so a Bordeaux style red and a white. There’s Hugging Tree, which is down the street. They have a wonderful Viognier and a Merlot that you really have to try. And then Seven Stones, which is farther down. It’s farther south, but super savoury Pinot Noirs. And you had to try one Cabernet Franc, because I know you like Cabernet Franc. But if you want Cabernet Franc from the Simikameen, it’s Seven Stones.
Natalie MacLean (20:15):
Seven Stones. Okay. Got it. Alright. And let’s just do a few quick hits on the rest of them because I do want to just mention them. Maybe give us one or two things that stand out about the Fraser Valley.
Luke Whittall (20:26):
Fraser Valley is very interesting. It’s much more moderate climate than other places, and that’s what gives it slightly, not maybe longer growing season, but it’s the potential for a longer growing season. It is a little bit more wet there though, so it’s not quite as easy to visit sometimes but it’s a beautiful place. And Mount Lehman area of Abbotsford is actually coming as a very, very spectacular place to visit. Beautiful wines.
Natalie MacLean (20:50):
And where is it in relation to the Okanagan?
Luke Whittall (20:51):
Oh, it’s closer to the coast. So it’s about an hour east of Vancouver.
Natalie MacLean (20:55):
Okay, cool.
Luke Whittall (20:56):
So about three hours from the Okanagan.
Natalie MacLean (20:58):
All right. The Gulf Islands.
Luke Whittall (21:00):
Gulf Islands. I’ve been to a few of them. I’ve been to Salt Spring Island.
Natalie MacLean (21:04):
I went there on my honeymoon again. Love the island still [laughter].
Luke Whittall (21:07):
Oh, you should make some new memories in these places [laughter].
Natalie MacLean
[laughter] I should.
Luke Whittall
Salt Spring Island is beautiful. I was there last summer and they’ve had some really interesting vineyards there. It’s a little trickier on the Gulf Islands. You can’t go and visit them very quickly. You can really only visit one or two at a time because just the day trips and the ferries and stuff like that. But there’s some really interesting. sSea Star was actually in my first Sipster’s guide. And they’re on, I can’t remember now, which island they’re on. There’s so many of them. But yeah, really interesting stuff, especially with aromatic grape varieties. Ortega and they actually have Pinot Noir there as well. too. So really interesting stuff.
Natalie MacLean (21:42):
Very cool. Great restaurants.
Luke Whittall (21:44):
That’s the most adventurous places to go is the Gulf Islands,
Natalie MacLean (21:47):
And they’re so beautiful. Just lots of organic stuff going on with food and restaurants. Do you pronounce it the Kootenays?
Luke Whittall (21:54):
Yeah, Kootenays.
Natalie MacLean (21:55):
Kootenays.
Luke Whittall (21:55):
Kootenays Region.
Natalie MacLean (21:57):
Where is that?
Luke Whittall (21:58):
So that’s east of the Okanagan Valley. So it’s a couple hours drive, at least a couple hours, if not more. Well, yeah, probably about three or four hours drive. Actually. There’s a wonderful winery in Nakusp called Valley of the Springs. I visited there. They were at the time, the only winery in Nakusp , and that’s a little bit farther north. It’s kind of due east Kelowna or Vernon, I think maybe. And just gorgeous area. It feels like you’re sort of in lumberjack territory and you are, but it’s just wonderful aromatic whites and beautiful, very juicy not highly tannic reds, and it’s just fantastically interesting. And then Creston is another town that’s about three hours from there. Kootenay is a large region geographically, and there’s nothing that really unifies at all other than it’s part of the Kootenay Lake or surrounding Kootenay Lake. But Creston has some beautiful Pinot Noir from a winery called Bailey Gorman, which is there. And there’s some other ones that are just killing it with Pinot Noir.
Natalie MacLean (22:56):
That’s great. Lillooet.
Luke Whittall (23:02):
Lillooet is Fort Berens. They were actually in volume two of my BC Sispter’s guide. Okay. They have wonderful Cab Franc and just screaming Riesling. I mean, the Riesling is just beautiful. It’s not like an international style. It’s kind of a unique its own version style, which I really like. And so there’ll be some really interesting stuff coming from Fort Berens.
Natalie MacLean (23:23):
And where is it in relation to the Okanagan?
Luke Whittall (23:26):
So it’s about halfway between the Okanagan and the coast. So between Whistler and say Kamloops about halfway in between there. It’s really literally in the middle of nowhere, and there’s really no reason to go there unless you’re driving sort of nearby it. The Trans Canada Highway kind of goes a couple of valleys to the east of it.
Natalie MacLean (23:47):
So order directly from the winery and they’ll ship. Most of these wineries do ship to your door across Canada, I should say. Absolutely, yeah. Even though interprovincial borders are nuts, but anyway. And then that’s another…
Luke Whittall (23:59):
Podcast.
Natalie MacLean (23:59):
Yes. Shush. How do you say it? Shush? Shuswap?
Luke Whittall (24:02):
Shuswap.
Natalie MacLean (24:03):
Shuswap, okay. Where is that?
Luke Whittall (24:05):
That’s north of the Okanagan. So that’s directly north. Shuswap Lake is geologically millions of years ago. The Okanagan flowed north – it flows south now – but it used to flow north into what is now Shuswap Lake. And then it would go down, the water would go through Kamloops and then down the Fraser River system, but it doesn’t now. But it still looks like it’s kind of the same valley and it is when you drive up, except the waters don’t connect. Shuswap is a large deep lake and it kind of moderates everything around there. And so there’s a few vineyards that are up in that area around towns like Tappen. There’s a winery called Recline Ridge, which is interesting. There’s another one called Large Hills, which is nowhere near the lake, but it’s high up and it’s south facing, and it’s just the most beautiful view. It’s really cool. It makes you feel like you’re in Switzerland.
Natalie MacLean (24:49):
Beautiful. And then finally the Thompson Valley.
Luke Whittall (24:52):
Thompson Valley. That’s around Kamloops, and I haven’t actually explored there as much. Monty Creek is up there, and I’ve driven in that area a few times. What’s fun about Thompson is that it looks a little bit like the Okanagan in that way. It’s got that same kind of desert vibe to it, but it has a shorter growing season and the soils are slightly different there. So the wines that you get from it are going to be a little bit different. But because their season is compressed a little bit more, they’re experimenting with a lot of grapes that the more recent hybrid grapes. So Frontenac Blanc […] and Frontenac Gris is grown there. And they have a whole bunch of other different hybrid varieties. They’re making some really, really interesting wines out of it. So I’m really excited. That’s a lot of potential there.
Natalie MacLean (25:36):
Awesome. Wow. Great Roundup. Well done. So if you look at BC, and I’ll ask the same question about Ontario, because we need to continue this conversation about Ontario, but what does BC need to start doing that it’s not doing now as a wine region in order to thrive for the next five to 10 years?
Luke Whittall (25:56):
Oh boy, in my opinion, BC needs to kind of hone its varieties down. The thing that I noticed the first time I was in Ontario was that most every winery has a Pinot Noir, they have a Gamay and they have a Sauvignon Blanc, and then they have some other stuff. But for the most part, there’s a little bit more consensus there about what does well. And then when I taste the Pinot Noirs and I taste the Sauvignon Blancs, I’m tasting much more profound depth to them than anything I’ve tasted in BC from those varieties. So I think BC needs to kind of hone itself. And I think the weather patterns that happened over the last few years are going to encourage that. I think there’s going to be a little bit more. It’s not going to be Syrah growing next to Pinot noir, growing next to Riesling, growing next to Cabernet Sauvignon, which is what happens here now. I think that’s going to change and I think that’ll eventually we’ll start to see some more consensus.
Natalie MacLean (26:48):
And similarly, for Ontario, what does it need to start doing that it’s not doing now to thrive in the future?
Luke Whittall (26:54):
It needs to be let out of its pen. It needs to be let out of Ontario. We need to be able to get these wines in other parts of the country. And I think when that happens, I think we’ll start to see a much more gracious wine drinking public in Canada throughout the country. And there’ll be more of a wine culture. But right now, it seems to be Ontario sequestered in Ontario. And there’s a big enough market for it so clearly they’re not hurting for that. But it would be really nice to get more Ontario wines…
Natalie MacLean (27:24):
Especially for those small craft producers who don’t have enough volume to fill big chains like the LCBO, even in the BC Liquor stores or SAQ. So they really do need to be able to ship directly to a customer list to thrive.
Luke Whittall
Exactly.
Natalie MacLean
So for back to BC, what does it need to stop doing that it’s doing now in order to thrive in the future?
Luke Whittall (27:46):
What does it need to stop doing?
Natalie MacLean (27:47):
Oh, maybe that’s just how you answered the first question. It needs to narrow down so many varietals.
Luke Whittall (27:53):
To narrow things down a little bit.
Natalie MacLean (27:54):
Okay.
Luke Whittall (27:55):
Because otherwise it, I think business practice wise, it’s marketing. It’s got marketing down pretty well. Ontario wines are getting better at marketing, although I did notice that a lot of wineries that I contacted in Ontario, when I sent them an email, they replied with a phone call. And so I’m like, maybe just email. So there’s some sort of maybe updating that needs to happen in some ways. But no, I think there’s a lot of potential in both regions, and I think there’s some really interesting strengths in both regions that each can learn from. And I think we just need the opportunity to be able to learn from it. We can’t be sequestered so much between the two sides. Yes, it’s far away. We are far away from each other, but we’re not that far.
Natalie MacLean (28:35):
It’s the same country, so hey, they built the railroad, so there’s always a possibility of getting that stuff elsewhere. So we’ve been in and out of the Sipster’s guide both for BC and the latest one is Ontario. Both make great gifts. How are they similar or different to say a Hugh Johnson pocket guide?
Luke Whittall (28:53):
Yeah, so I have a number of those pocket guides, which are fantastic. Those are a lot of industry stats and really densely packed with information in those guides. This is very much not meant to replace that. This is very much a. It’s trying to make wine reading fun. I mean, reading a Hugh Johnson book is fun for me. I enjoy that. But I think that would make a lot of customers and just sort of regular wine people kind of melt down with all the information. And so what this is is these are more conversational. These are more. I learned a term. I went to a writer’s festival about a month ago and I learned a term called Flash Fiction and someone pointed out that that’s sort of what I do. And it is a little bit in that way, but I’m using wine as the thing. I’ve sold these books to people who don’t even drink wine because they’re like well this is just fun to read.
Natalie MacLean (29:45):
That’s great. That’s a compliment. Interesting and the colourful anecdotes. But back to your Flash Fiction, what was it? I think 50 Shades of Gray was flash fiction for I think the vampire series. So it’s when someone rifts off an original work, but does a completely different new creative thing with it. So you’ve got your Hugh Johnson and then you’re doing something completely new and different with these guide.
Luke Whittall (30:06):
Oh yeah. I think you’re thinking of Fan Fiction.
Natalie MacLean (30:09):
Oh, Fan Fiction. Okay. So yeah, we’re not going to get 50 Shades of Gray in your books [laughter].
Luke Whittall (30:15):
No [laughter]. Well, I don’t know. The corkscrew comment before,
Natalie MacLean (30:18):
The whole lustful wine was getting a bit off colour there. No, just kidding.
Luke Whittall (30:21):
The Flash Fiction is, as it was told to me, and I haven’t sort of researched this or anything, but as someone told me that I did sort of what is flash fiction. Flash Fiction is having a narrative, but using only 300 words to do an all complete full story spun out narrative,but in a very, very, very concise.
Natalie MacLean (30:43):
It’s like those tiny love stories in the New York Times. So they’ve got Modern Love, big column, and then they’ve got a hundred words, Tiny Love Stories, which I love.
Luke Whittall (30:51):
I’ve never read those, but I want to now [laughter]. That sounds really good.
Natalie MacLean (30:55):
It’s in the Styles in the Lifestyle section. It’s where I go to first. That’s where my mind is in the Times. Anyway. That’s cool.
Luke Whittall (31:03):
So that’s sort of what it is. It’s little, I mean, I can show you some pages. I mean, it’s really just, here’s 16 Miles Cellars. So basically it’s a picture of the wine and then a very quick writeup that’s basically using the wine as a starting point. And what I want to do is give a story that explains my feeling of basically the sense that I get from the wine and kind of spin a bit of a story around that.
Natalie MacLean
That’s so cool.
Luke Whittall
And some of them come from. The first book was me and my ex-girlfriend having dinner every night, and the wine would just sort of speak to me or it didn’t. And when it spoke to me, then I actually got out my laptop during dinner, which I know now is probably pretty rude, but I started…
Natalie MacLean (31:46):
Did you say she’s an ex-girlfriend [laughter].
Luke Whittall (31:49):
[laughter] Well, it could have been part of it, but basically it was I just had to kind of get that just the main point out of something that I wanted to say. And then I put the laptop away and
Natalie MacLean
Then she’s staring at it.
Luke Whittall
I went back to it later and spun it out and sort of worked it out into something that was entertaining to read.
Natalie MacLean (32:08):
That is great. And has anybody said anything about either of the Sipster’s guides that has stuck out for you? Something interesting someone said about either book?
Luke Whittall (32:18):
Just that they were very, very, well. I mean, people buy three or four of them at a time, first of all, because they think, well, I know people who like this.
Natalie MacLean (32:26):
They’re easy to give out.
Luke Whittall (32:27):
Absolutely. And they’re only 20 bucks, so that also helps, too. I had some comments that John was quite appreciative of it, John Schreiner, where he said that it was just a very entertaining new way to write about wine.
Natalie MacLean
That’s great.
Luke Whittall
And that was the goal. It was supposed to be very, very entertaining.
Natalie MacLean (32:45):
Cool. Sounds like you accomplished it. And three people listening to this podcast or the video are going to win copies of your new book, which is fabulous. So thank you for offering that.
Luke Whittall (32:56):
And instead of just, if it’s someone from Ontario who wins it, I’ll send the Ontario book, but if it’s someone from BC I’ll offer Volume Two.
Natalie MacLean (33:05):
Oh, that’s great.
Luke Whittall (33:06):
We can’t do three of each, but three winners total.
Natalie MacLean (33:08):
That’s very generous Well, I will connect you with them via email and so that you guys can work it out which book. But that is wonderful. So I know that you have a flight to catch. Is there anything that we haven’t covered that you wanted to mention now before I ask where we can find and you online and your book’s online?
Luke Whittall (33:32):
I mean, you can go to my website Sipsterswinepodcast.ca or sipsters.ca. You can connect with me there. I do have Instagram. I don’t use it very much. I’m sort of on the fence about social media at the moment, but I also now have a Substack, which you can get to where it’s more the industry oriented writing, but also if you want to learn about wineries that are the top drawer. The wineries that I feature in here, I restrict myself to wines that are under $50 and that are consist consistently available. So everything in these books are absolutely accessible to everybody, which is I think really important to me. But Sipster’s Icons is my way of, because when I’m talking to wineries, they show me all these really amazing wines that I cannot write about in these books. And so what I want to do is use that as the platform to write about those fantastic wines.
Natalie MacLean (34:20):
They’re the more expensive, harder to get. But still, I would say you can still buy them maybe from the winery if they’re not all on allocation and previously sold out.
Luke Whittall (34:30):
Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I don’t write about things that are just impossible to get. I think that’s difficult. But what I wanted to do was write about wines that I thought that I just wasn’t able to include in the book. And they don’t even have to be expensive. Some of them just made this one wine once, and there’s some wineries that are really very natural. There is Revel Cider actually from Ontario. They make all kinds of very small batch ciders, but they’re very, very unique each one of them. And so they don’t necessarily. It was hard to kind of choose one to include because I don’t know, by the time the book comes out, if they’re still going to be able to produce that wine.
Natalie MacLean (35:04):
Sure, sure. Understand.
Luke Whittall (35:05):
So I can write about that with Sipster’s Icons.
Natalie MacLean (35:08):
Awesome. And where can we find the books?
Luke Whittall (35:11):
Books are available online at all the major retailers. I don’t know about small bookstores in Toronto, but I always sort of recommend that Mosaic Books in Kelowna has the BC Sipster’s, both of them. The Sipster’s books volume one and volume two. Volume three for BC is going to be coming out in the spring.
Natalie MacLean (35:28):
Oh, congratulations.
Luke Whittall (35:29):
And I’m just starting writing volume two for Ontario.
Natalie MacLean (35:32):
Wow. So it’s a whole franchise you’ve got going there.
Luke Whittall (35:36):
Part-time job. Yeah.
Natalie MacLean (35:37):
That’s great. That’s great, Luke. So we’ll put all the links to your website, your ck, where you can find the books in the show notes. But Luke, I want to say thank you so much for this, your wealth of information on both provinces. So really appreciate your time and sharing all those stories and experiences with us.
Luke Whittall (35:57):
Oh, thank you so much for having me, Natalie. This is great.
Natalie MacLean (35:59):
Alright, cheers. I’ll say goodbye for now. Thank you.
(36:08):
Well, there you have it. I hope you enjoyed our chat with Luke. Here are my takeaways. I love that Luke pairs wines to moods rather than simply food. I think our emotional state and the context and the occasion are often better predictors of a great match or a great taste experience than whether you’re asparagus was oven roasted or steamed. I especially love his description of a lustful wine. Number two, Luke continues to share surprising insights about British Columbia’s wine regions. I’m especially intrigued with the way Golden Mile Bench wines retain their acidity and structure and I’m really motivated to visit that area again. And number three, I enjoyed his notion that there are times when you can tell that a wine really likes you.
In the show notes, you’ll find a full transcript of my conversation with Luke, links to his website, books and podcast, the video versions of these conversations on Facebook and YouTube live, and where you can order my book online now no matter where you live. That’s all in the show notes at nataliemaclean.com/261.
Email me if you have a sip, tip, question. If you’ve read my book or are in the process of reading it, or would like a beautiful personally signed book plate to make it a holiday gift at [email protected]. I would love to hear from you.
If you missed episode 240, go back and take a listen. Luke interviews me on his podcast, the Sipster’s Wine Podcast. I’ll share a short clip with you now to whet your appetite.
Luke Whittall (37:44):
Congratulations on your new book. It’s a fantastic read. I’m not a fast reader, but I could not stop. It really turned into a drama. It pulled me along.
Natalie MacLean (37:54):
It really was a mind blowing experience to learn how to write a completely new genre you found, get read like a drama. A memoir should whisk people away into a story where they feel like they’re part of it. They’re going up and down on the rollercoaster with the main character, that’s the author, and experiencing those feelings and the tension and everything else with her.
Natalie MacLean (38:24):
If you like this episode, please email or tell one friend about it this week, especially someone you know who’d be interested in the wines, tips, and stories we shared. It’s easy to find my podcast. Just tell them to search for Natalie MacLean Wine on their favourite podcast app .
You won’t want to miss next week when we chat with Marcy Gordon and Beth Costa, hosts of the Wine Road Podcast in Sonoma. Thank you for taking the time to join me here. I hope something great is in your class this week, perhaps a delicious, savoury wine from Ontario that you discovered in Luke’s new book.
You don’t want to miss one juicy episode of this podcast, especially the secret full bodied bonus episodes that I don’t announce on social media. So subscribe for free now at nataliemaclean.com/subscribe. Meet me here next week. Cheers.
