Introduction
How are innovators making art and wine more engaging and accessible? What is it about the art and wine worlds that makes business and pleasure often one and the same? Is authenticity in art and wine important?
In this episode of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, I’m chatting with author Bianca Bosker.
You can find the wines we discussed here.
Giveaway
Three of you will win a copy of Bianca Bosker’s terrific new book Get the Picture: A Mind-Bending Journey among the Inspired Artists and Obsessive Art Fiends Who Taught Me How to See.
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Highlights
- Are the art and wine worlds still ruled by gatekeepers?
- How are innovators bringing in new voices and making art and wine more engaging and accessible?
- What’s the role of the social grapevine in the art and wine industries?
- Why is mentorship a critical aspect for moving up the ladder in these industries?
- What is it about the art and wine worlds that makes business and pleasure often one and the same?
- What are some creative ways to develop your taste and understanding of art and wine?
- Is authenticity in art important?
- How do forgeries and fakes impact the art world?
- What can the art and wine worlds learn from each other?
- Why was it important to Bianca to be in the action in the art world when writing Get in the Picture?
- Which wines would Bianca pair with iconic artists and artwork?
- Why would Joan Didion be Bianca’s ideal companion for sharing a bottle of wine?
Key Takeaways
- How are innovators making art and wine more engaging and accessible? “It’s really exciting to see that there are a lot of people who want to move beyond the gatekeeping, Bianca says. “With art and wine, some people say there are no rules, you can engage with it any way you want. She found that advice really frustrating. She thinks that it is important to give people the tools to think for themselves to engage with art or with wine on their own terms. And she believes that with wine, often times there’s too much telling people what to taste instead of teaching them how to taste. She thinks the art world can be guilty of something similar. That’s not to say that we can’t each work a little harder to exercise our eye or palate. We just need a little time and certainly the inclination and eagerness to do so.”
- What is it about the art and wine worlds that makes business and pleasure often one and the same? Bianca observes that mixing the two is part of getting ahead in these different worlds, but it can be unfair for up and coming artists who are working 1, 2, 3 jobs so that they can go home, and in the dregs of the day do the work they want to do, which is their artwork. Bianca says they have to forget having a family or kids since it’s hard to spend all of your time bopping around openings and networking.
- Is authenticity in art or wine important? It’s interesting to note that with art, the idea of a forgery is actually a relatively recent invention, Bianca notes. We haven’t always cared what was original, and what was a forgery or what was a fake. And there is a philosopher who’s also an artist who actually makes the case that forgeries are great artworks unto themselves. Authenticity, which we like to think of as cut and dry, in the art world has been shown over time to be much more fluid than we may be comfortable with. This philosopher proposed that not only can these forgeries really move us in the way the artworks can, but perhaps they themselves are great artworks in the sense that they make us question our assumptions, they make us look differently, you know, at our way of looking at the world, they kind of make us uncomfortable. And so those are all things that he would argue that a great artwork can do. She found that a really intriguing argument. I do too and I think the same can applied to wine if it hasn’t turned to vinegar.
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About Bianca Bosker
Bianca Bosker is the author of the New York Times bestselling books Get the Picture: A Mind-Bending Journey among the Inspired Artists and Obsessive Art Fiends Who Taught Me How to See and Cork Dork. A contributing writer at The Atlantic, she has also written for publications such as The New Yorker, The New York Times, and The Wall Street Journal. Her work has been recognized with awards from the New York Press Club, the Society of Professional Journalists, and more, and has been included in The Best American Travel Writing.
Resources
- Connect with Bianca Bosker
- Bianca Bosker’s Article in The Atlantic | A Trove of ‘Lost Basquiats’ Led To A Splashy Exhibition. Then The FBI Showed Up
- Diary of a Book Launch: An Insider Peek from Idea to Publication
- Wine Witch on Fire Free Companion Guide for Book Clubs
- My Books:
- Unreserved Wine Talk | Episode 58: Getting Graphic with Wine and Madeline Puckette of Wine Folly
- My new class The 5 Wine & Food Pairing Mistakes That Can Ruin Your Dinner And How To Fix Them Forever
Tag Me on Social
Tag me on social media if you enjoyed the episode:
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- @nataliemaclean on Twitter
- @nataliemacleanwine on Instagram
- @nataliemaclean on LinkedIn
- Email Me at [email protected]
Thirsty for more?
- Sign up for my free online wine video class where I’ll walk you through The 5 Wine & Food Pairing Mistakes That Can Ruin Your Dinner (and how to fix them forever!)
- You’ll find my books here, including Unquenchable: A Tipsy Quest for the World’s Best Bargain Wines and Red, White and Drunk All Over: A Wine-Soaked Journey from Grape to Glass.
- The new audio edition of Red, White and Drunk All Over: A Wine-Soaked Journey from Grape to Glass is now available on Amazon.ca, Amazon.com and other country-specific Amazon sites; iTunes.ca, iTunes.com and other country-specific iTunes sites; Audible.ca and Audible.com.
Transcript
Natalie MacLean (00:00:00) – You also observe in the art world that people socialize and sometimes even live with a work, which is also the case with wine? Do you think that creates a culture also of drinking your own Kool-Aid and not experiencing life more broadly for those who create art and wine?
Bianca Bosker (00:00:14) – That’s interesting. I think that it is so part and parcel to also getting ahead in these different worlds. And I think that that also can create opportunities. But I think it can be unfair on those up and coming artists. They’re working 1 to 3 jobs so that they can go home and in the dregs of the day, do the work they want to do, which is their artwork. So forget having a family or kids. I mean, it’s hard to spend all of your time bopping around openings and networking.
Natalie MacLean (00:00:52) – Do you have a thirst to learn about wine? Do you love stories about wonderfully obsessive people, hauntingly beautiful places, and amusingly awkward social situations? Well, that’s the blend here on the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast. I’m your host, Natalie MacLean, and each week I share with you unfiltered conversations with celebrities in the wine world, as well as confessions from my own tipsy journey as I write my third book on this subject.
Natalie MacLean (00:01:25) – I’m so glad you’re here. Now pass me that bottle, please, and let’s get started. Welcome to episode 286. How are innovators making art and wine more engaging and accessible? What is it about the art and wine worlds that makes business and pleasure often one and the same? And is authenticity in art and wine important? In today’s episode, you’ll hear the stories and tips that answer those questions in part two of our chat with Bianca Bhasker, author of The New York Times best selling books Get the Pitcher and Cork Dork. You don’t need to have listened to part one from last week first, but I hope you’ll go back to it if you missed it after you finish this one. Three of you are going to win a copy of Bianca’s terrific new book. Get the picture? All you have to do is email me at Natalie at Natalie MacLean dot com, and let me know that you’d like to win a copy. I’ll choose three people randomly from those who contact me. I also still have two copies of Barbara Scott Goodman’s book, Wine Bites on Wine and Food, pairing with recipes to give away.
Natalie MacLean (00:02:42) – Just email me for that as well. If you haven’t won a book, now’s your chance. And keep listening, as my goal is to offer lots more books and other prizes. With every episode, you can qualify no matter where you live. As I mentioned last week, I’ve just started recording the audio version of wine, which on fire, rising from the ashes of divorce, defamation and drinking too much. And I’ve promised to share with you the behind the scenes insights into the process. So audiobooks represent the fastest growing segment in publishing, with sales up 20% over last year. They were already popular before the pandemic, but they really soared when we all had to bunker down with in-home entertainment. The pace of their growth hasn’t stopped since then. Some publishing experts believe that audiobooks will actually have a longer shelf life than their print counterparts. The ideal timing to launch an audiobook is when the print and ebooks are published, so that you can capitalize on the marketing efforts and appeal to those whose only mode of consuming books is auditory, like me.
Natalie MacLean (00:03:51) – That said, it’s been one year now since the win, which print and e-book launched, so this is going to be more of a secondary launch with a separate company, but it’s still worth doing, especially since I’ve heard from so many people who are waiting for this format. This includes a surprising number of people who are vision impaired and who are so loyal to this podcast. It makes me happy to be able to serve these listeners in a meaningful way. I don’t have a launch date yet, but when I do, you’ll be sure to know. In the meantime, I hope you’ll wish the Little Wine Witch a happy birthday since she just turned one on social media and tagged me. The memoir is now one of nine books in the Best Culinary Narrative category for the 2024 Taste Canada Awards, the Oscars of Canadian food and drink writing. Have you read the wine? Which paperback or e-book? If yes, well then, have you bought a copy for a friend or family member? Please consider doing that if you’d like to support this podcast that I do for you on a volunteer basis to ensure it continues.
Natalie MacLean (00:04:55) – You can order it for yourself or someone else from any online book retailer now, no matter where you live. It usually arrives in a day or two. And of course, the e-book is instant. It’s a fast read and every little bit helps spread the message in this book of hope, justice, and resilience. You can send a copy directly to a friend or family member via the online retailers, and make their day when a gift arrives in the mail, rather than another bill. I’ll put a link in the show notes to all retailers worldwide at Natalie MacLean dot com. Forward slash 286. I also offer a free companion guide that has book, club and wine group discussion questions that can also spark a conversation between two friends or a partner and spouse. It asks questions such as how you feel about your own relationship with wine, especially post-pandemic marketing tactics toward women and men, and whether social media is still a good place to connect with others. The guide also has wine recommendations, pairings and tips for organizing your own informal wine tasting.
Natalie MacLean (00:05:57) – And you can get that at wine, which on Viacom. If you’ve read the book or are reading it, I’d love to hear from you. If your book club or wine group plans to read it, let me know if you’d like me to join in via zoom. I also have a summary sheet that you can send to book club members who are deciding on upcoming books. Email me at Nathalie at Natalie MacLean dot com. Okay, on with the show. So, you know, in get the picture that there are a lot of entrenched, often self-appointed gatekeepers. That’s very much like the wine world. You have not only new voices, old guard, but New World, old world or countries are slotted into those definitions. Do you think the art world or the wine world is one of them, is better at succeeding at bringing in new voices or the Rebel Alliance, as you call them, to the fore? Or do they both have their own issues? But they’re different.
Bianca Bosker (00:06:53) – I think they both have work to do.
Bianca Bosker (00:06:55) – You know, I think that part of the reason that I think what I hoped with both of these books, with Cork Dork and with Get the Picture, is that, you know, I hope that they were the sort of book that like someone who had spent years collecting art or working in a museum or someone who had, you know, spent a lifetime tasting Burgundy, could read and discover something new, but also someone who’d never stepped foot in a gallery, or someone who’d never bought a bottle of wine could read them, be compelled to make art or wine a part of their lives.
Natalie MacLean (00:07:28) – I think you’ve achieved that goal with both books.
Bianca Bosker (00:07:31) – Oh, thank you, I really hope so. I mean, I hope that doesn’t sound, you know, overly ambitious, but, you know, I do something unless it’s ambitious. And so I think that there’s a lot of people who are trying to do that in their own and different ways. And I think that’s incredibly exciting. I think that here in New York, I ended up working for Paul Greco, who runs terroir, and I loved he’s.
Natalie MacLean (00:07:51) – A Canadian, by the way. Yeah.
Bianca Bosker (00:07:52) – Yes he is. And, you know, he was someone who I think I had never read a wine list that made me laugh until I stepped foot in terroir. And I think he’s done really fascinating wine classes and just things that mix things up. And I like the way that it feels like an interesting kind of experimental approach of like, yeah, how do we kind of change the conversation? What didn’t I mean, you know, if you’ve ever seen his wine list, like it’s this combination of screeds and manifestos, like there’s a whole section where he compared, like each Cru class or like, I don’t know, like each of the first growths of Bordeaux. It’s like a different rapper or something. It was just these insane meditations on life and wine and and the guy’s just, you know, a mad genius. And I think, you know, likewise, there’s so many people in the art world looking to bring art beyond the sort of intimidating format of the White Cube.
Bianca Bosker (00:08:46) – There’s a gallery called Good Naked that will do art shows in the park when hanging work, you know, on trees on a nice day. So I think it’s really exciting to see that there are a lot of people who want to move beyond that gatekeeping. And also, you know, I think it’s important to me. I always got really frustrated. I think with art and with wine, people were always like, oh, it’s like there’s no rules. Like you can engage with it any way you want. And as someone who really felt totally adrift and being able to connect with art or wine, I found that advice really frustrating because I was like, I just don’t even know where to start. I have nothing to hold on to. I feel like I’m just slipping off of both of these things, and as a result, I’m just not engaging. And so I do think that it is important to give people the tools to think for themselves, to really be able to engage with art or with wine on their own terms.
Bianca Bosker (00:09:43) – And I think with wine, I think there’s oftentimes too much telling people what to taste instead of teaching them how to taste. And I think the art world can be guilty of something similar. But I do think that ultimately, everything you need to have a meaningful experience of art is right in front of you. And that’s not to say that we can’t each work a little harder to exercise our eye, but it’s not impossible to do so. And you don’t need to spend a lot of money. You just need a little time, and certainly the inclination and eagerness to do so.
Natalie MacLean (00:10:13) – Yeah, to expose yourself and as you say, stay in the work. And I agree with you. You know, it’s, I think, unhelpful to beginners, especially to try to demystify or democratize wine to the extent that you say anything goes, put ketchup on your ice cream and drink it with a Cabernet. Like there’s a reason some guidelines exist. And you know a reason why I’m still teaching courses on this subject.
Natalie MacLean (00:10:38) – It’s kind of knowing what the rules have been, so you know how to bend and break them to your own pleasure. Just some of your phrases are just as was the Kirkus review said, you can make dust sparkle, like, oh my, what a quote.
Bianca Bosker (00:10:51) – I love it. Thank you. I was so excited.
Natalie MacLean (00:10:53) – Well deserved. Yeah, yeah. What you say? Well, both worlds have their own strong social grapevines. Of course. You’re saying how they’re in the art world. They’re talking about everything around the artwork more so than the art itself. But you have a phrase that says gossip for art people is like echolocation for bats. You send out signals of what you thought was greater, derivative or phony, and then oriented yourself based on what came back. Do you think the social grapevine is helpful, or is it? Just another exclusionary tool in the art or wine world.
Bianca Bosker (00:11:26) – Yeah, well, I think that there’s definitely a lot of gossip in both worlds. I mean, you know, nothing gets people talking like a bottle of wine, right? But I think one thing that, as you’re asking that I realized that is similar about both is that there is the gossip, which is not always great.
Bianca Bosker (00:11:43) – On the other hand, I do think that you have a strong culture of sort of mentorship. I mean, there is this idea of, for better or for worse, I think often for worse, the rules of the trade are not written down. Right. And it’s really something that you learn through apprenticeship. You know, it’s something you learn by doing a stage in a restaurant, something you learn by finding a more experienced somm to be your mentor or weaseling your way, as I did, into tasting groups with aspiring master sommeliers in the art world, it can mean like working as a studio assistant to an artist, can mean doing studio visits with other artists, or just kind of being in the mix so that you glean these sort of really crucial life lessons around how do you get a gallery? What should a contract say? Should you have a contract? I will say that I found it disheartening to learn that the sort of vow of silence that exists often in the art world extended not just to journalists like myself, but also to artists that were in it.
Bianca Bosker (00:12:42) – And what I mean by that is, you know, as I said before, I had a lot of trouble getting access into the art world, and I began to think that there is a way in which the art world view secrecy is key to its survival. Part of it is that, you know, there are things that would pass for absurd, illicit, illegal and other realms. So if you haven’t taken this Mafia like vow of silence, you’re viewed as a risk. Some of it is also, I think that that withholding of information is a way to build mystique, to concentrate power in the hands of gatekeepers. But as I was saying when I spoke to artists, I was disheartened to find that these people who had so much more at stake than I did, who had years more in this field, really were still befuddled on how to make a career in it. I mean, even basic things like how do you get a gallery to show your work, right? Were things that people had spent a dozen years in New York City trying to figure out.
Bianca Bosker (00:13:30) – And so I do wish that some of these things were clearer and more codified. On the other hand, like I said, I think these are both worlds where the good actors within them are very willing to be mentors, to be sources of support and guidance. And so I think that’s the good side of the talking.
Natalie MacLean (00:13:50) – Yeah, absolutely. And you also observe in the art world that people socialize and sometimes even live with a work, which is also the case with wine. I mean, talk about winemaker dinners at night and just the whole thing is very campus. Do you think that creates a culture also of drinking your own Kool-Aid and not experiencing life more broadly for those who create art and wine?
Bianca Bosker (00:14:12) – That’s interesting. I mean, it could perhaps, but I think it is tough to criticize because I think that it is so part and parcel to also getting ahead in these different worlds. And I think that that also can create opportunities. But I think it can be unfair. I mean, I think it’s a lot to ask.
Bianca Bosker (00:14:30) – I work for a dealer who’s advice to artists who are trying to get galleries to show their work in New York City was basically like, you’ve got to go to openings all the time. Like, be it openings, make it your job to go to openings like you got to be underfoot. You’ve got to make friends with artists. You got to make friends with the people running the galleries. And I think that that is, on the one hand, not necessarily bad advice, but also I think we have to recognize difficult for many people. I will say that my journey through the art world was really focused on emerging up and coming artists. You know, to me, that is the highest stakes and least covered part of the world. It’s this place where we can see the bloody business of art history being made. And I really wanted to see, like, how does the work of art go from being this germ of an idea in someone’s studio to this cultural icon that we obsess over in the halls of museums? I feel like all the decisions that shape that work are also decisions that shape us, right? Our idea of what art is, who makes it, why we should gauge with it.
Bianca Bosker (00:15:26) – And so in the process of focusing on those up and coming artists, you know, I got to know a lot of people who, you know, they’re working 1 to 3 jobs so that they can go home and in the dregs of the day, do the work they want to do, which is their artwork, you know? And so forget having a family or kids. I mean, it’s hard to be spend all of your time bopping around openings and networking. If you also want to be making art or, you know, God forbid, like having a family. So I guess, you know, it’s all to say that, you know, I think that to some extent, the way that these industries are designed necessitates that business is pleasure, and pleasure is business and all that. But yeah, I don’t know that it’s always necessarily for the best.
Natalie MacLean (00:16:15) – Yeah. Well, at least the restaurant world can be hard on family life, given the hours and the not just the time you work, but the length of time you have to work like art.
Natalie MacLean (00:16:24) – This is just so interesting. But you suggest spending less time with the masterpieces, I believe. Just correct me anytime I misquote and more time with less discovered pieces, say in someone’s home. I guess we kind of covered that in that. My question would be don’t we have to train first on the classes, then branch out? But I guess you’re more nuanced than that in the book in terms of how you’d respond.
Bianca Bosker (00:16:47) – It’s an interesting question. I mean, certainly with blind tasting, I felt like it was really helpful to like, start with the noble grapes. Right. And to, you know, someone had given me the advice of like, start with the noble grapes and then, you know, Sauvignon blanc, if you’re trying to figure out what Sauvignon blanc tastes like, drink only Sauvignon Blanc for like a week or a month, right? And try and figure out its permutations as it moves from France to New Zealand to California. And I did find that really helpful. And I think that for me, being able to sort of say, because the wine world is so vast, right? I mean, to try and taste your way through the Grapes of Italy alone could take you a lifetime.
Bianca Bosker (00:17:25) – Right? And so I think I found it helpful to sort of say, all right, let’s start with this handful of very frequently used grapes and like, you know, then go on these sort of field trips to figure out, like, again, how does the character of a Chardonnay change as it moves around the world? I did find that helpful, and I will say that this wine is still a huge part of my life, but I do a bit less blind tasting than I did before. And I’m now, I think, in that phase of having had that foundation going off more adventurous excursions to try the grillo’s of Sicily or the rebel Angela’s of Slovenia, you know, like, I think that I feel like I sort of have that foundation to now explore a little bit more. And I think with art, you know, you’re right. I mean, I’ve encouraged people to spend a bit less time with the quote unquote masterpieces in museums and more time seeking out art by emerging artists, by artists that they don’t know that they’ve never heard of.
Bianca Bosker (00:18:22) – You know, going to, like you said, galleries in basements, going to art schools, just going off the beaten track a bit. I suggest that because I think that is really crucial to developing our eye. And I think that context is, of course, you know, for me, I was on this journey to sort of understand, like I said, why does that matter? And how do we engage with it more deeply? And I hope that people will find a number of different answers to those questions in the book. But for me, there were certain paths and answers that resonated more than others. And, you know, I do think perhaps informed by my experience with wine, I do think that there’s something to be said for people not outsourcing their taste to contacts and for instead really developing their own. I and I think part of developing it, as I said before, is to expose yourself to different things, to things you don’t know. And my hope is that if each of us do a little bit more to work that muscle to develop our eye, that we could maybe support a greater variety of artists of art, forms of forms of expression.
Bianca Bosker (00:19:23) – I think there’s this myth in the art world that genius is in short supply. There’s sort of this idea that you hear in a lot of galleries. It’s a sort of the myth of artificial scarcity, you know, like you go to galleries, especially in art fairs, and it’s like, hurry, this offer won’t last long. Act now. Right. And there’s this sort of sense like, you know, there’s a limited number of really great artists in the world. In my experience. I don’t buy that. And so I think it would be amazing if each of us could exercise our eye. And like I said, really engage with it on our own terms and in the process allow more artists and more different forms of expression to really blossom and flourish.
Natalie MacLean (00:20:01) – I love that idea. It’s almost like we become a mini Medici, like sponsoring a little local artist or whatever.
Bianca Bosker (00:20:08) – Yes, which you can do what you can do. And I think with art and with wine, I think price is not necessarily an indicator of quality.
Bianca Bosker (00:20:16) – And just for people who may, like me, have thought, well, like you can’t buy real, you know, original artwork without taking out a mortgage, but I used to think you can buy art for $120. You can buy it for $25. It’s a whole range out there. And I think that’s really exciting. And I think that those prices can sort of afford to take a risk. And at the same time, like you’re supporting someone, supporting a different way of seeing the world. And that’s huge. That’s great.
Natalie MacLean (00:20:45) – I love that, I love that both worlds are, as you say, playgrounds of the rich that invite to polite corruption. Love that we’ve heard of, fake bottles of wine being sold at auction for hundreds of thousands of dollars. What’s the most unusual or intriguing fake or con that’s been played out in the art world?
Bianca Bosker (00:21:03) – Oh my gosh, there’s so many. I actually just wrote a feature story for The Atlantic magazine about a particular case of art forgery that I found very fascinating, and it was basically a story about this trove of supposed paintings by Jean-Michel Basquiat, a very famous artist who passed away.
Bianca Bosker (00:21:22) – His paintings can sell for like millions and millions and millions of dollars. And so these pieces were discovered. They got the thumbs up from various experts. They were valued at millions of dollars. And they went and had a splashy show at an art museum. And then they were confiscated by the FBI on the grounds that they were forgeries. And so the piece sort of looks at this particular case, but it also asks this broader question of why is it still so hard to tell real artwork, fake artwork? And also, does it matter? And I do think that it is interesting to note that with art, I mean, the idea of a forgery is actually a relatively recent invention. We haven’t always cared what was original and what was a forgery or what was a fake. And there is a philosopher who was also an artist, who actually makes the case that forgeries are great artworks unto themselves. I mean, not only can they, in many cases, sort of give us this experience of beauty in many cases, like there’s so many examples of throughout history of artworks that have been sort of real one day, fake the next, and then real again the day after that.
Bianca Bosker (00:22:30) – And, you know, really authenticity, which we like to think of as cut and dry in the art world, has been shown over time to be much more fluid than we may be comfortable with. And so this philosopher sort of proposed like, okay, so not only can these forgeries really move us in the way that artworks can, but perhaps they themselves are great artworks in the sense that they make us question our assumptions. They make us look differently, you know, at our way of looking at the world. They kind of make us uncomfortable. And so those are all things that he would argue that a great artwork can do. I found that a really intriguing argument.
Natalie MacLean (00:23:09) – Yeah. That’s fantastic. And how did they figure out they were fakes?
Bianca Bosker (00:23:12) – So it’s complicated. But basically there’s always issues with provenance chain of custody I think interestingly, unlike wine where, you know, once you open the bottle of wine, you’ve just got to drink it on the spot, right? There’s this issue of connoisseurship with art where it’s like different experts can look at the same artwork and sort of rule on what they view to be its authenticity.
Bianca Bosker (00:23:35) – You know, there are many connoisseurs that disagreed with the authenticity particular supposed Basquiat paintings. But what should have been the final nail in the coffin came when the person who had originally sold them admitted to forging most of the works. The owners of these works did not take that to be the final nail in the coffin. And so the piece is about the continued dispute and sort of their argument that these might actually still be real. But yes, if you want to learn more, you can read the piece and try and find pictures of the artworks themselves.
Natalie MacLean (00:24:09) – In the Atlantic. Excellent. What do you wish the art world would teach the wine world and vice versa?
Bianca Bosker (00:24:15) – I mean, I think that I wish for both of these worlds. Like I wish that they would teach each other, but also the world at large. I think just how essential these things are to our lives. I mean, I think that I encountered, you know, people in the art world who were incredibly dismissive of wine, you know, they felt like it was this kind of overly hedonistic experience that, you know, couldn’t really give you a profound experience of something.
Bianca Bosker (00:24:48) – And so.
Natalie MacLean (00:24:49) – Well, that’s because the wine traditionally at gallery art openings is horrendous. They don’t know what they’re talking about. Second only to cheap weddings.
Natalie MacLean (00:24:58) – I mean, come.
Natalie MacLean (00:24:59) – On, people. But anyway, yes, they dismissed it without giving it a chance. The way they view art.
Bianca Bosker (00:25:05) – Yeah. You know, likewise. I think that art, as I said before, I think it strikes many people as being totally optional or even irrelevant. And like, I wish that the wine and I wish the world at large really understood the way that spending time with art can not only change us as art viewers, but also change us as human beings. And I think for both books, like I’ve had people who are like, I’m not going to read Corked Door because I don’t drink wine. And I’m always like, oh, it’s yes, it’s about wine, but it’s also really about these forgotten senses of taste and smell and experiencing the world in a different way and experiencing more of the world.
Bianca Bosker (00:25:45) – And I think people that do read the book, I hope, like, see that and understand that. I’ve had people say that like it’s, you know, I don’t drink wine, but it doesn’t matter. I still learned a lot.
Natalie MacLean (00:25:54) – Exactly. And about human nature, I mean, that’s deeply embedded into both books. And I know for my latest book, wine which on fire. My most meaningful reviews have come from teetotalers who like, do not drink and I take it as the highest form of praise. But you know. Yeah. Anyway, your books are definitely. It doesn’t matter if you have never drank a drop of wine in your life, you still record dork and get the picture.
Bianca Bosker (00:26:18) – It would be really fun. I think, you know, there was less overlap in the worlds than I had expected, I think. Yes, there are a lot of these worlds. Both do attract people with considerable amounts of money. They you know, there’s a big collecting culture in both, which requires having lots of zeros in your bank account.
Bianca Bosker (00:26:36) – And, you know, I do think that and yet, like, I was surprised that there wasn’t more connection in conversation. And I think it’d be really fun if we threw all these people together in a room more often. And not just but the free wine and openness, which, sadly I will add, doesn’t happen as much as I had thought. You know, it definitely is in many openings, but more often it’s like there’s a big trash can with ice and beer.
Natalie MacLean (00:27:00) – So oh, that’s very sad, very sad. And you mentioned you learn by doing. And I do admire your approach very much, as has been reflected in the reviews of Get the Picture, like Tom Wolfe, George Plimpton, Joan Didion, and even I think Michael Palin, who traces, you know, the journey of meat back to the original cattle, I do think I agree it often yields deeper, richer insights, but do you think you might be changing the narrative by being in the middle of it versus leaving it undisturbed, so to speak, by just observing it?
Bianca Bosker (00:27:33) – Yeah.
Bianca Bosker (00:27:33) – I mean, I think that probably certainly I think that there is, you know, merits to so many different approaches. And I’m so glad that different writers take different approaches. And, you know, some people just do interviews or there’s obviously many historical texts I just found, especially after Cork Talk, that I was really convinced in the value of getting in the middle of the action of learning. By doing, I mean, it’s one thing for an art dealer to give you the polite answer to how they sell a painting. And quite another, as I’ve now experienced to, you know, sell thousands of dollars worth of art from the back seat of an Uber during Art Basel Miami, while people are doing cocaine around you. And I think that, you know. Yeah, certainly it’s I’m there and people know that I’m a writer. So of course that changes things. But, you know, nonetheless, I think over time I think it’s still just offers for a richness and a depth of understanding that I really value as a human being and as a writer.
Natalie MacLean (00:28:30) – And how did you get them to let their guard down, or did they, because they did know you’re a writer or journalist going into their world?
Bianca Bosker (00:28:39) – Yeah. Which makes it that much more surprising that some people did and said some of the things that they did. When I let people read the book to figure out what I mean about that, I think that, of course, it’s hard to know. I mean, of course people I’m sure would be different, some sort. But I also think that I was lucky enough to find people who were really excited about having me around, about the sort of collaboration that that was. And so it isn’t something that I worry about too much, but I think that I worked for a pair of gallerists, you know, who say that they just wanted to see more people love art, they wanted to bring more people into this world. And so they were excited to pull back the curtain to show what goes on and how to do it, and let me get in there and sell art with them, write press releases, spackle walls.
Bianca Bosker (00:29:25) – But yeah, I mean, and then you had people who told me there was one dealer who I worked for who pulled me aside one afternoon to tell me, you’re not the coolest cat in the art world. So having you around, it’s just like lowering my coolness. So, you know, got advice to kind of change my wardrobe, tone down my enthusiasm, rethink some of the ways I communicated all of that.
Natalie MacLean (00:29:48) – And again, you have some great phrases like a cactus chasing a balloon or something and a Chihuahua. Was it a Chihuahua? Enthusiasm or something?
Natalie MacLean (00:29:55) – That is so.
Natalie MacLean (00:29:57) – Fun. Your language this time has gone by. Let’s go to a lightning round. Just quick answers whatever comes to mind. Bianca, which wines would you pair with these artworks? Jackson Pollock, an abstract painting by Jackson Pollock.
Bianca Bosker (00:30:10) – Well, so Jackson Pollock was a notorious alcoholic who died in an alcohol during a drunk driving accident. So I feel like in this case, I would probably drink very strong coffee. But I think generally for like that kind of abstract expressionist artwork, I don’t know, champagne.
Bianca Bosker (00:30:27) – Like if I had to, like, I just feel like there’s some like effervescence to that work that I think some sort of like a sparkling wine would be like, you feel that, you look at the judge and then you feel it from the inside as well.
Natalie MacLean (00:30:40) – I love that Edgar Degas, little dancer of 14 years, the sculpture. Yeah.
Bianca Bosker (00:30:44) – It’s like, I wish she was 21 so she could drink. But I feel like for like decor in general and sort of like that whole series of ballerinas, it would have to be something extremely classically and obviously French. And I think, Chris, it’s like something about the work to me is just like, there’s always this, I don’t know, like a kind.
Natalie MacLean (00:31:02) – Of linearity or something.
Bianca Bosker (00:31:04) – Yeah, maybe, but there’s like a luminosity to it. And so I think like a Shibli I’d probably say like some super first growth. Shibli first growth. What am I saying? Not Frisco. Oh my god I’m not sure that but you know like anyway a Premier Cru like a really nice Shibli.
Natalie MacLean (00:31:19) – Yeah. Cool. And people are going to have to read the book to find out who. Mandi. All fire is fantastic live performance artist. But what would you pair with one of her performances?
Bianca Bosker (00:31:29) – Yeah. So yeah. Maddie Alpha was an ass influencer. A performance artist, as also a nearly naked performance artist who sat on my face, which is how we met. I mean, gosh, I have to think more like a Budweiser heavy. I’m not gonna lie. It was his opening. It was in the basement of a gallery. It was, you know, there was wires hanging on the wall. It’s more of like a can of beer in your hand. I don’t know, but. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Or something, I guess. Earthy. Yeah. Right. Right, right. It’s a good question.
Natalie MacLean (00:31:57) – Yeah, well great answers. If you could share a bottle of wine with any person outside the wine world, living or dead, who would that be? And what bottle would you open?
Bianca Bosker (00:32:07) – So this is every writer’s answer.
Bianca Bosker (00:32:08) – But like, probably Joan Didion. What? Bottle of wine? I mean, I would be so excited to meet her and talk to her that I would probably drink. You know, I would, like, pull out something really special, like, you know, vintage champagne, like a really old vintage champagne. Or I would try and get something really high alcohol so that she would get drunk and stay and talk more.
Natalie MacLean (00:32:33) – That’s great. All right.
Natalie MacLean (00:32:36) – Cool. When in the art world to develop your eye and into the wine world to develop your taste, I’d like to know which organ is next. Is it music? Touch? Dance? Fashion? Is it instead of get the picture, maybe catch a tune, listen up or move a muscle?
Bianca Bosker (00:32:53) – Yeah, I love all of that. I don’t know yet, but I think all of those worlds and topics are really, really fascinating. And why not? I’ve thought about each of them in their own way.
Natalie MacLean (00:33:05) – Excellent. We can’t wait, Bianca.
Natalie MacLean (00:33:07) – I mean, we’re greedy for your work, so keep writing. I mean, it’s a real treat to read you and to talk with you.
Bianca Bosker (00:33:13) – And I’m so grateful. It’s a real honor and a pleasure. And your kind words mean a lot coming from you. So thank you.
Natalie MacLean (00:33:19) – Thank you. Bianca, as we wrap up, is there anything we haven’t covered that you’d like to share? I’m also going to ask how people can find you in your books online, but is there anything else you’d like to mention?
Bianca Bosker (00:33:30) – I mean, look, I could stay here and talk to you for hours, so I feel like there’s a lot of things, but no, I feel like we’ve, you know, it’s been a blast. It’s been really great. And again, I’m really thankful.
Natalie MacLean (00:33:38) – Awesome. And your books get the picture and Cork Dork are available wherever books are sold online and book retailers. Where can we find you online? Yep.
Bianca Bosker (00:33:47) – There’s audiobooks, there’s ebooks. They’re in different languages, soon to be different languages.
Bianca Bosker (00:33:52) – My website is Bianca Bazaar.com on social media, I’m Bhasker, and yeah, you’re always welcome to reach out. It’s Bianca Bhasker at Mi.com.
Natalie MacLean (00:34:03) – Excellent, Bianca. So I will say goodbye for now and this has been a real treat. Cheers to you.
Bianca Bosker (00:34:09) – And to you. Thank you so much.
Natalie MacLean (00:34:15) – Well, there you have it. I hope you enjoyed our chat with Bianca. Here are my takeaways. Number one, how are innovators making art and wine more engaging and accessible? As Bianca says, it’s really exciting to see that there are a lot more people who want to move beyond the gatekeeping. With art and wine, she adds, some people say there are no rules that you can engage with it in any way you want. And she finds that advice really frustrating. So do I, actually. She thinks it’s more important to give people the tools to think for themselves, to engage with art or wine on their own terms. She also says that with wine, oftentimes there’s too much telling people what to taste instead of teaching them how to taste.
Natalie MacLean (00:34:59) – She thinks the art world can be guilty of something similar. It’s not to say that we can’t each work a little harder to exercise our eye or our palate. We just need a little more time and the inclination and eagerness to do so. Number two. What is it about the art and wine worlds that makes business and pleasure often one and the same? Bianca observes that mixing the two is part of getting ahead in these different worlds, but it can be difficult for up and coming artists who are working at several jobs so that they can then go home and in the dregs of the day, do the work they actually want to do, which is their artwork. Bianca says they have to forget having a family or kids, since it’s hard to spend all of your time bopping around to openings and networking. I’d say there’s a lot of similarities in the wine world, because the business pleasure events of winemaker dinners and so on, they’re all in the evening. Number three. Is authenticity in art or wine important? Bianca says it’s interesting to note that with art, the idea of a forgery is actually a relatively recent invention.
Natalie MacLean (00:36:08) – We haven’t always cared for what was original and what was a forgery or a fake, and that there is a philosopher who’s also an artist who makes the case that forgeries are great artworks unto themselves. Authenticity, which we like to think of as cut and dry in the art world, has been shown over time to be much more fluid than we are comfortable with. This same philosopher proposed that not only can these forgeries really move us in the way that artworks can, but perhaps they themselves are great artworks in the sense that they make us question our assumptions and they make us uncomfortable. So those are all things that he would argue that a great artwork can do. She found that a really intriguing argument. I do too, and I think the same can be applied to wine, of course, if it hasn’t been turned to vinegar. In the show notes. You’ll find a full transcript of my conversation with Bianca, links to her website, and books the video versions of these conversations on Facebook and YouTube live, and where you can order my book online now.
Natalie MacLean (00:37:12) – No matter where you live. You can also find a link to take a free online wine and food pairing class with me, called the five Wine and Food Pairing Mistakes That Can Ruin Your Dinner and How to Fix Them Forever at Natalie MacLean. Com forward slash class. That’s all in the show notes at Natalie MacLean dot com forward slash 286. Email me if you have a SIP tip question, or would like to win one of three copies of Bianca’s terrific book. Get the picture? I also still have two copies of Barbara Scott Goodman’s Wine Bites on wine and food, pairing with recipes to give away. And of course, I’d love to hear from you if you’re reading my book. Email me at Natalie at Natalie MacLean. Com. If you missed episode 58, go back and take a listen. I chat with Madeline Puckett about how art and visuals can help us understand wine and remember what we learn. I’ll share a short clip with you now to whet your appetite.
Bianca Bosker (00:38:09) – What is flavor?
Madeline Puckette (00:38:10) – Why do I taste the things that I taste? And it’s profound.
Madeline Puckette (00:38:15) – Every single person has these taste receptors on their tongues, and they associate differently based on who you are. So if you’re Sauvignon blanc tastes like peaches and strawberries, and my Sauvignon blanc tastes like grass and jalapenos, we might actually be drinking the same glass of wine, but we have an entirely different taste perception of it. So this book is empowering because it can help people discover their flavor of Sauvignon blanc and the way they might experience that wine. It’s all based on aromatic compounds, which you probably get asked this all the time. Natalie, if I’m smelling strawberry wine, does it mean it actually has strawberries in it?
Natalie MacLean (00:39:07) – You won’t want to miss next week when we chat with Mark Millen, author of Italy in a Wine Glass The Story of Italy through its Wines. He’s also written numerous other books, such as wine A Global History. If you liked this episode or learned even one thing from it, please email or tell a friend about the podcast this week, especially someone you know who’d be interested in learning more about the parallels between the worlds of wine and art.
Natalie MacLean (00:39:34) – It’s easy to find my podcast. Just tell them to search for Natalie MacLean wine on their favorite podcast app, or they can listen to the show on my website. Thank you for taking the time to join me here. I hope something great is in your glass this week. Perhaps a wine that you consider a masterpiece. You don’t want to miss one juicy episode of this podcast, especially the secret full bodied bonus episodes that I don’t announce on social media. So subscribe for free now at Natalie MacLean. Com forward slash subscribe. Meet me here next week. Cheers.
