Introduction
What does a healthy relationship with wine look like? Which tricks can you use to lower the alcohol content of your wine? How have my thoughts on overdrinking changed over the years and over three books?
In this episode of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, I’m being interviewed by author Molly Watts of the Alcohol Minimalist Podcast.
You can find the wines we discussed here.
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Highlights
- How has my position on overdrinking changed over the years between writing my three books?
- What did I do to better understand and manage overdrinking?
- What does a healthy relationship with wine look like?
- Why did I choose to be more mindful of my drinking rather than getting sober completely?
- Why is the way wine is marketed to women problematic, and what has my role been in perpetuating these narratives?
- How did the pandemic influence our collective drinking habits?
- Why is it important to embrace a mindset of progress over perfection?
- What are some strategies you can use to start drinking more mindfully?
- How can you find great wines that with low or no alcohol?
- Which tricks can you use to lower the alcohol content of your wine?
- What benefits have I experienced from mindful drinking?
- Why do I advocate for planning and moderation in alcohol consumption?
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About Molly Watts
Molly Watts is an author, podcast host and coach from Portland, Oregon. She hosts the top-rated Alcohol Minimalist podcast where she shares science and strategies to help people change their drinking habits. She is the author of Breaking the Bottle Legacy, a book dedicated to daily habit drinkers and adult children of alcoholics who want to create a peaceful relationship with alcohol.
Resources
- Connect Molly Watts
- Diary of a Book Launch: An Insider Peek from Idea to Publication
- Wine Witch on Fire Free Companion Guide for Book Clubs
- My Books:
- Unreserved Wine Talk | Episode 111: Ontario Icewine: How to Drink It, Pair It and Love It with Karen King
- My new class The 5 Wine & Food Pairing Mistakes That Can Ruin Your Dinner And How To Fix Them Forever
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Tag me on social media if you enjoyed the episode:
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- @nataliemaclean on Twitter
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- @nataliemaclean on LinkedIn
- Email Me at [email protected]
Thirsty for more?
- Sign up for my free online wine video class where I’ll walk you through The 5 Wine & Food Pairing Mistakes That Can Ruin Your Dinner (and how to fix them forever!)
- You’ll find my books here, including Unquenchable: A Tipsy Quest for the World’s Best Bargain Wines and Red, White and Drunk All Over: A Wine-Soaked Journey from Grape to Glass.
- The new audio edition of Red, White and Drunk All Over: A Wine-Soaked Journey from Grape to Glass is now available on Amazon.ca, Amazon.com and other country-specific Amazon sites; iTunes.ca, iTunes.com and other country-specific iTunes sites; Audible.ca and Audible.com.
Transcript
Molly Watts (00:00):
You’re doing exactly what I talk to people all about here all the time. We got to figure out the why behind why we’re drinking. So many people, and I’m sure you had this thought for a long time, was well I just really like wine. Then you realize that this idea that you really loved it, you didn’t love what was happening as a result of over drinking.
Natalie MacLean (00:20):
I compare it to there’s a reason we don’t eat an entire chocolate cake, even though we may feel like doing that sometimes. Not only is it not good for us, not healthy for us, but in the end it doesn’t even taste good. We’re just doing it to numb, drown those feelings. Whereas I’ve been in beautiful settings, restaurants where you get just the right serving of the cake and it’s wonderful. You slow down, you savour it.
And there’s a reason that wine isn’t served in shooter glasses and you just knock it back. It is meant to be the drink of conversation, to be savoured for its sensory pleasures over dinner with friends.
Natalie MacLean
Do you have a thirst to learn about wine? Do you love stories about wonderfully obsessive people, hauntingly beautiful places and amusingly awkward social situations? Well, that’s the blend here on the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast. I’m your host, Natalie MacLean, and each week I share with you unfiltered conversations with celebrities in the wine world, as well as confessions from my own tipsy journey as I write my third book on this subject. I’m so glad you’re here. Now pass me that bottle please and let’s get started.
Natalie MacLean (01:47):
Welcome to episode 267. What does a healthy relationship with wine look like? Which tricks can you use to lower the alcohol content of your wine? And how have my thoughts on drinking too much changed over the years and over three books? In today’s episode, you’ll get the stories and tips that answer those questions in our chat with Molly Watts, an author, podcast host, and coach from Portland, Oregon. She is the author of Breaking the Bottle Legacy, a book dedicated to daily habit drinkers and adult children of alcoholics who want to create a peaceful relationship with alcohol. Molly also hosts the top rated Alcohol Minimalist Podcast where she shares science and strategies to help people change their drinking habits. In this episode, she’s interviewing me on her podcast. I thought this topic might be interesting to those of you who are recalibrating your alcohol intake after the holidays.
Several of you asked if I’m participating in dry or damp January. I’m not changing my habits specifically for January, but my year-round goal is to enjoy wine on just three nights a week. And on those nights I aim for a maximum of two glasses. Although December was a challenge given my heavy social calendar – just kidding about the social calendar bit – I’ve generally been able to stick to this. I feel great and at peace with my own relationship with alcohol. I also feel as though I’ve moved from the anesthetic back to the aesthetic of wine, enjoying it mostly for its sensory pleasures, not the buzz. But hey, I’m human and sometimes I fail and start again.
So just a note that I still have a copy of last week’s guest, Amanda Barnes’s, beautiful hardcover book of the South American Wine Guide. To give away, all you need to do is email me and let me know that you’d like to win. I’ll choose someone randomly from those who contact me at [email protected].
If you haven’t got your copy of Wine Witch on Fire: Rising from the Ashes of Divorce, Defamation, and Drinking Too Much yet and would like to support it – and this podcast that I do for you on a volunteer basis – please order it from any online book retailer no matter where you live. It usually arrives within a day or two of purchase, and of course the ebook is instant. Every little bit helps spread the message in this book of hope, justice, and resilience. I’ll put a link in the show notes to all the retailers worldwide at nataliemaclean.com/267.
If you’ve read the book or are reading it, I’d love to hear from you at [email protected]. I’d also love to hear from you with ideas about who we should have on the podcast in 2024. I’m looking for guests who are great storytellers, who can entertain and educate us at the same time. They could be writers, winemakers, sommeliers, chefs, or experts in other related areas such as health, cheese, charcuterie and so on. If you have any suggestions on how to improve this podcast overall, please let me know. Okay, on with the show.
Molly Watts (05:12):
Good morning, Natalie. Thank you so much for being here on the Alcohol Minimalist Podcast. I just cannot wait to have this conversation, and I appreciate you taking the time.
Natalie MacLean (05:22):
I’m so pleased to be here with you, Molly. I just think we’re soul sisters when it comes to wine and alcohol in terms of where you’re coming from and the message that I’m trying to get out with my latest book.
Molly Watts (05:32):
Which is kind of impressive and at the same time curious, right? Because your history, your legacy, the career that you’ve had over decades has been all about teaching people about wine. And, in your previous books, maybe even kind of celebrating over-drinking to some degree. Would you agree with that?
Natalie MacLean (05:54):
Absolutely. Well, the title of my first book was White and Drunk All Over, subtitled A Wine Soaked Journey from Grape to Glass. Number two was Unquenchable: A Tipsy Search for the World’s Best Bargain Wines. And of course this one is Wine Witch on Fire: Rising from the Ashes of Divorce, Defamation, and Drinking Too Much. So it’s almost like a trilogy and a journey right there on the titles. But yes, I used to make my over-drinking habits fodder for humour, but now I’m really hoping they’ll fuel a discussion on over-drinking, particularly as it relates to women, but I think it’s a relevant discussion for everyone.
Molly Watts (06:32):
Yeah, absolutely. Just this last month here on Alcohol Minimalist, we talked about doing November as no binge November, really just in a way to help educate people even on what a binge by definition looks like and understanding, because so much of what I talk about is just helping people really understand. And I think for you too during this process, so this book takes place more than 10 years ago now in time, in real time. The process that you went through during that year, a kind of this awareness and an enlightenment in your own mind, did digging into the science of alcohol and understanding the true definitions of what moderate drinking looks like, did they surprise you? Was it like oh this is not me?
Natalie MacLean (07:22):
Well, yeah. There’s a lot of factors coming into play. Alcoholism runs in my family and my relatives to joke that the moth, that being me, likes to fly a little too close to the flame when they see what I do for a living. But my problem with wine or overdrinking really focused, as you said, about a decade ago. I call it my no good, terrible, very bad vintage personally and professionally. And in response to two big issues, a sudden divorce from a husband of 20 years and an online mobbing on social media, in response to those issues, depression and anxiety, I started drinking too much. I mean, I had easy access to wine. I had the cloak of professional respectability of always having a wine glass in my hand. It was almost rigor. So I really did, as you say, Molly had to dig down into not just the science of overdrinking, but also why was I doing it?
Molly Watts
Okay.
Natalie MacLean
There were these big issues in my life, so that’s pretty obvious, but I was in therapy and still am to this day. I’m a big proponent of it, but what I found is that the first step was dealing with those underlying issues, the depression and anxiety, and then my need for that. The thought I need to drink really subsided substantially. I share a lot of other tips in the book as well.
Molly Watts (08:45):
Yeah, you just said something that is music to my ears. You may not realize it, but we talk a lot about how our thoughts fuel our feelings and drive our actions around here. So thoughts, feelings, actions, and that very sneaky little thought of I need a drink. I actually share that in my own book about how the realization that that thought was there. I need as opposed to I want or anything else, and how that thought I need fueled my desire to drink, and how changing that and how realizing like, oh, wait a second. That thought isn’t actually true. What I want is to feel relaxed, and I am seeking that in this glass of alcohol.
Natalie MacLean (09:31):
Exactly. And those words need and deserve, and they have the bitter edge of someone’s not appreciating you or you’re not appreciating yourself. And so you’re reaching out for something you think will solve that, but it actually won’t. And that is also one of the tips. What was the thought just before the thought that said I need a drink?
Molly Watts (09:52):
Yeah, exactly. You’re doing exactly what I talk to people all about here all the time. We got to figure out the why behind why we’re drinking. So many people, and I’m sure you had this thought for a long time. was well I just really like wine. I just really like it. I love the taste of a good Pinot, right? That’s like the storyline. And so they feel like that’s the reason that they drink is because I just love it. And then you realize – and I think this happened for you during that terrible, horrible, bad vintage year – you realized that this idea that you really loved it, you didn’t love what was happening as a result of over-drinking.
Natalie MacLean (10:32):
No. I compare it to there’s a reason we don’t eat an entire chocolate cake, even though we may feel like doing that sometimes. It actually. Not only is it not good for us, not healthy for us, but in the end, near the end of that cake or halfway through, it doesn’t even taste good. We’re just doing it to numb, drown, whatever out those feelings. Whereas I’ve been in beautiful settings, restaurants where you get just the right amount, the right serving of the cake, and it’s wonderful. You slow down, you savour it. I mean, there’s a reason that wine isn’t served in shooter glasses and you just knock it back. It truly is meant to be the drink of conversation to be savored for its sensory pleasures over dinner with friends, and that’s why we have different shaped wine glasses for different wines.
Molly Watts (11:21):
What I think you captured right there, and I think is something that is a thread that goes throughout this book. We talk a lot about the narrative around alcohol is you’re either somebody who can drink or you cannot drink and should not drink. And so there is this black and white, good and bad and wrong culture around it. And very little conversation about some of the true positive social interactions that people have when they’re enjoying a glass of wine. There is absolutely some reasons that people choose to include alcohol in their lives in a minimal way that are beneficial for us in a social way. And I love the fact that when you decided, I mean, was it because you were in the wine industry and you had a very realistic business mindset that said well I can’t stop drinking altogether? Or was it something that you really just like, no, I want to explore this. I think the opportunity is there to drink less and be able to do that.
Natalie MacLean (12:24):
I asked my therapist point blank because, as I said alcoholism runs in my family, so I just said should I go sober? Should I become sober? And she said well let’s explore harm reduction first, because I think going sober completely is punitive, especially for my career. I would have to find another career, but I’m not going to ruin my health for my career. So I was open to that possibility of just no more drinking. But she said also in her experience as a therapist, she said usually telling someone outright to go cold turkey on whatever it is they’re doing often is ineffective. It’s definitely the right way for some people who have hit rock bottom, have a medical condition, or whatever. But she said, in your situation – every situation is different – let’s see if we can develop some techniques now that we’ve sort of dealt with the depression and anxiety. Let’s get down to some more specific techniques.
And yes, you’re absolutely right, Molly. I don’t find there’s any discussion in that middle ground. There’s sober curious, dry January, and then you have a problem. And there’s a lot of shaming too about over-drinking or whatever. I know when I went out for dinner with girlfriends years back, and it was the first time I didn’t have a glass of wine. I ordered water. They said, you’re pregnant. So that’s the assumption. You’re either pregnant, you have a problem with alcohol, or perhaps there’s a religious reason, but there can be nothing else. And I really do want to help others like me who love wine, but want to have a good relationship with it to find that middle ground.
Molly Watts (14:05):
And again, that is exactly what I do around here, I hope. And I think one of the problems is that a lot of people don’t understand what the middle area is and what they’re looking for. They’re seeking for the answer of what is a healthy relationship with wine. And so we talk a lot about low risk limits around here. But one thing that you mentioned there in that conversation was the going out with friends with women, and when you don’t have a drink, people are like are you pregnant?
But let’s talk a little bit about the messaging that is delivered around wine for women because it is a big part of your book. And it is super important, not only in your own history in the wine industry, which I think for people that are going to read this book your eyes are going to be very opened wide about some of what we may perceive as a glamorous industry, right?
Natalie MacLean
Yes.
Molly Watts
Some of that’s peeled back a little bit in this book for sure. Let’s talk about messaging and the narrative and how do you feel about that with regards to women, in terms of where you’ve been with how you might’ve perpetuated some of that messaging early on in your career, and how you feel about it now?
Natalie MacLean (15:21):
Sure. So yes, I have a marketing background. So I love the marketing angle when it comes to wine just as a sort of an interesting cultural phenomenon. But in Wine Witch on Fire, I talk about that women represent one of the fastest growing segments. I mean, we’ve always been household purchasers of just about everything from Schreddies to SUDs, and we buy the majority of wine that comes into the household. Now, we drink the majority of it – 66% of it. But the marketing message that I find some companies are using or portraying is that we’re wallets, not women. We’re cash cows literally who will drink the cutesy pink bow tie, high heel kind of crappy wines that men would not drink. And we subsidize the more artisanal, complex wines that are marketed toward men.
And the message on the bottle, Molly, on some bottles is that we’re either babes or battle axes. So we’re either reaching for those brands that have short black dresses, red lipstick because it’s girls night out, or it’s a spa day or whatever, or we’re going for labels like Mad Housewife with taglines, dinner be damned just to try to obliviate another day of motherhood and exhaustion. Again, there’s no middle ground or respectful stories when it comes to those narratives and those labels. And I think on one level, as you know, there’s a lot of laugh out loud memes and jokes on social media. Wine is to women as duct tape is to men.
But I think if we dig a level deeper on labels that profit from a feeling of powerlessness or thanklessness, a message we need to really question when it comes to women, because the message, the first message is that we need a reason to have a glass of wine. It’s got to be celebratory or with gal’s night out or whatever. No one asks a man why he wants a drink. He has one because he wants one. And then on a deeper level, it’s no one’s thanking mom or the woman. So mom will thank herself to a drink, and then another one, and then another one. And you alluded to this, but in the book I say I wasn’t a bystander in this labeling game or the LOL memes. I was team captain. I called my glass of wine at 5:00PM mommy’s little helper and oh yeah, LOL. But there is a tinge of bitterness there, too. And I think I had to question my own place in this whole marketing game. Was I enabling others to feel good about their over drinking? Was I bringing more pleasure or pain into the world, not just through my own habits, but what I was encouraging others, especially women to do?
Molly Watts (18:16):
Yeah. I appreciate you sharing that because I think that too is just so valuable for people to hear. And one of the things that we can’t escape is the narrative that is going to be continued on around us. Because you talked about it a little bit too in terms of just the industry and how that impacts you in terms of or impacted you in the side of this book. Was this online attack on you in terms of your credibility, which is your source of income. I mean, that’s a big deal. And the stakeholders in these conversations, the alcohol industry themselves, all of the people that just like the wine critics, everyone has a stake in writing this narrative. And we need to be careful about how we are positioning that, especially to women. You talked about it in the book, and I was wondering about this because the timing of when you wrote this book is notably, like I said, it was more than a decade ago that this actually took place.
Did the timing of the – and I don’t know when you started writing – but the timing of the pandemic, which we saw huge increases in women’s consumption of wine and a narrative that really started to shift, especially for women during that time. Did that impact your decision to write this book when you did? And I know that again, some of this, I think you make a comment about write from a scar, not from an open wound at the end of your book – and I think there’s probably there was some time and healing that needed to take place before you were ready to write this book. But did that influence you at all too? Just the timing of what we’ve seen in terms of women’s consumption?
Natalie MacLean (20:05):
Yes. So even though the events in this book took place a decade ago before Me Too, before Harvey Weinstein and others, I think the issues and the situation is more relevant today than it even was back then. During the pandemic, there’s been various studies released, but women – especially women with children – increased their alcohol consumption something like 323% versus just 39% for the overall population. And I think we gave that over consumption culturally a pass. Everyone was just trying to cope with all of the added roles and stressors of not being able to go out, being confined in a bubble, worried about everybody’s health. But I think now that we’ve emerged from the pandemic – and I hope that remains the case – I think we’re re-examining. A lot changed. And a lot of people did not recalibrate to pre-pandemic levels of drinking. They just kept going with it.
And wine mom culture is a whole other phenomenon that had always been there, but really came on strong during the pandemic. So yes, it did influence my desire to write Wine Witch On Fire because I thought, I think we need to change the conversation and try to examine those assumptions that those crutches we were all using during the pandemic. It’s not serving us well, and it didn’t 10 years ago for me. But a lot of people experienced the same thing but in a different situation during the pandemic. And I think we all need to kind of wake up and smell the roses or whatever.
Molly Watts (21:49):
And I think that what I love about this book. So first of all, like you said, this wasn’t written to be a self-help book. This is a memoir. But what I love about the fact – especially coming at it from the angle that I talk about, which is drinking less – being able to include alcohol in your life in a minimal way and understanding what drives your over-drinking habits. And – whether it’s over-drinking in a binge way or just on a daily basis – and that you can’t when you’re drinking three to a half a bottle of wine every night. I mean, that’s the bottom line. And so we have to be willing to explore all of that.
And the book is a synopsis of, like you said, this year that was really terrible. And during that year of really hard stuff, life stuff, you managed to work on your relationship with alcohol and change it for the better. And that is something that I want people to understand because that’s really what this book kind of does. It takes you through that journey. I hear it from people all the time, well but I want to change but I’ve got this going on or that going on and life’s just so hard and it’s the holidays and et cetera, et cetera. We have to be willing to take a turn and dive into this work right away because every day that we don’t do it is just a day that we’re still spending it in an over-drinking pattern, which is just not a healthy way to live your life basically.
Natalie MacLean (23:26):
And every little bit helps, Molly. So my journey that year was not linear. It wasn’t like okay I need to fix this drinking problem and then by the end I could tie it up with a shiny red bow.
Molly Watts
It was all forward motion.
Natalie MacLean
No, it wasn’t. It was forward and back, but begin today. Begin at least with the questions. It’s like saying, I’m not going to buy that new dress until I lose 10 pounds. How about buying the dress. Starting today. And then feeling good about how you look, and then perhaps that, I’m just trying to make a rough analogy here. Maybe you feel good about yourself and it becomes easier to start watching your diet or whatever you’re doing. But I encourage people to think about it. It’s not all or nothing, just like it’s not all or nothing between sobriety and overdrinking. The journey itself is not all or nothing. Just start with wherever you’re at. Make some progress. Know there’ll be setbacks. Don’t be so hard on yourself. What keeps us from making progress slip up, it’s human to fail, to start over again. It’s the starting over again that will really in the end, get you to where you want to be with wine, with alcohol.
Molly Watts (24:40):
Yeah, absolutely. I tell people all the time the secret to getting there faster is to keep going.
Natalie MacLean
Exactly.
Molly Watts
I mean, there’s getting there faster. You just got to keep going. You got to get yourself back up. You got to learn from your, be willing to be curious and compassionate with yourself, understand what happened, and use it as a reason to show up differently next time. When we do that and small steps lead to those big wins. It’s every single step. Small steps along the way, And there’s no better time than starting than right now. Your life isn’t going to get easier. Trust me, it’s not going to, things aren’t going to just get rosy better just because you wish they were. It takes action and you can actually do it during the midst of crisis, which is something that you talk about in that, which is kind of what the book is.
Natalie MacLean (25:28):
Yeah, it’s never ideal. And during the holidays it can be particularly trying. But some of the other tips I share, Molly, is like have a pre-game plan. So if I go…
Molly Watts (25:40):
We call it the doable drink plan around here.
Natalie MacLean (25:43):
Oh I love it. I love it. I have got to binge listen to your podcast after this.
Molly Watts (25:46):
Exactly. Yes, you better binge listen.
Natalie MacLean (25:49):
So if I go to a restaurant, I’ll know what my personal limit is, which is two five ounce glasses of wine if we’re going out over a couple hours and then immediately I’m going to ask for some chamomile tea so that if the meal is still going on or whatever, I’ve got something I’m sipping on. I’m not sitting there twiddling my thumbs or whatever. I’ve got a plan.
At home, if I’m having a dinner party, I’m alternating a glass of wine with a glass of water. So there’s all kinds of little techniques or I’m mixing into the repertoire low and no alcohol wine. So I still, because sometimes it’s just the act of drinking, sipping. It’s why we love tea and coffee. So sometimes it’s just that. It’s not that you actually are craving the alcohol itself that you want to get smashed, but you’re being social. Everybody’s still raising and lowering glasses, so get something else in your glass and I think you’d be surprised about how effective that can be too.
Molly Watts (26:52):
Oh, 100%. One of the challenges that people complain about is non-alcoholic wines. They really feel like there’s no good ones out there. Do you have any recommendations for low alcohol, no alcohol wines while I have a wine critic on the show folks.
Natalie MacLean (27:07):
Sure. So when it comes to low alcohol, you want to look for cool climates like Germany and Riesling, that’s a grape that’s harvested early. Germany is a very cool climate. So those Rieslings are going to be maybe 8% alcohol versus you can get some Australian Shiraz that come in at 14 and 15%, almost double the amount of alcohol. So look for cool climates. They’re even cool pockets like in California, Carneros, Sonoma and so on. You’re going to find on average that the alcohol levels are lower.
When it comes to no alcohol, there’s a whole new world out there. It’s not those soy cooking wines, those neutered cooking wines of your. And even a lot of wineries are now making no alcohol wines. So they make them in the same process, same care that they would make their alcohol based wines, but then they remove the alcohol, so they’re tasty. There are so many websites specializing in this.
Molly Watts (28:03):
So tell me on how do you feel about this, because some people ask me about these questions all the time. So other tricks that people use is to of course, make a spritzer, right? So thats a way of reducing alcohol or making a glass of wine a lower by alcohol by volume. Also, sometimes for me as sometimes I drink beer more than wine, typically a lot of the times, but I will split a non-alcoholic beer with an IPA and I…
Natalie MacLean
That’s a great idea.
Molly Watts
And it reduces. So with a glass of wine, pour some non-alcoholic wine in and splash in the real stuff, and you’re already immediately lowering the alcohol by volume, and you could still potentially get the taste of that full-bodied wine that you might like.
Natalie MacLean (28:49):
Absolutely. And I do something in restaurants even that would horrify wine snobs, especially in the summer. I will put two or three ice cubes in a refreshing white wine and that’s going to water it down, too. Now, I’m not doing it in fancy expensive wines, but if I’ve just got an everyday Sauvignon Blanc or whatever it is. It cools down the wine itself. But it’s so marvelous because it really doesn’t change the taste substantially for a moderately priced wine. I don’t think you need to worry about that. And I’m officially giving you and your listeners your license to chill. Don’t worry about those snobs, just put it ice cube in it.
Molly Watts (29:31):
[laughter] And I think this is really good information for all of you wine snobs to hear from Natalie. Would you consider yourself a previous or are you still a wine snob? a reformed snob?
Natalie MacLean (29:42):
Yeah, reformed writing snob. I don’t know if I ever was a wine snob. I’ve always felt like an enthusiastic amateur, but I’ve been in this game for more than 20 years and I’ve been recognized for my writing with awards and so on. So I am confident of my expertise. But yeah, I think I will try to stay on the side of enthusiastic wine lovers rather than going over to that very, very small field over there of snobs.
Molly Watts (30:11):
Okay. And here’s what I would like you to hear listeners is that if an enthusiastic wine critic can find non-alcoholic wines that she actually enjoys, I’m pretty sure that you can, too.
Natalie MacLean
Absolutely.
Molly Watts
Because that is one of the stories that people love to hang on to. And I understand it. Some of it is a learning process because when you first are trying non-alcoholic beverages – whether it’s wine, spirits, or beer – you’ve got to let your taste buds adjust to it. Because at first you’re going to be like, oh, this doesn’t taste like my right?
Natalie MacLean (30:48):
Right. It’s not going to taste exactly the same, but open your mind and your taste buds. Because in the last three years, even the explosion in great tasting, non-alcoholic wines, beers and spirits will astound you and websites dedicated to just those kinds of drinks.
Molly Watts (31:06):
And I also really liked the fact that you mentioned chamomile tea. One of the things I’ve heard from, especially from wine drinkers, is a really good steeped glass of tea actually has a lot of tannin in it and can be very appealing to a wine drinker. But I love the fact that you talked about that. So we have a plan ahead of time. We go in, we have our two glasses of wine, and we have a plan to have a glass of tea thereafter. It’s like that is a part of the plan too, and that is how we build success.
Tell me, this is one of the things that I think I hear in that black and white – you can or you can’t conversation about planning. People that are sober only insist that having to make a plan ahead of time and having to do this kind of mental constraint around alcohol is really fatiguing and it’s hard, and it would just be easier to not drink at all. That’s the mindset. It’s just easier. I tell people all the time, it’s not hard at all. I don’t understand that. For me, it’s just like you wouldn’t go in with a plan of eating three pieces of chocolate cake. You don’t go in having a plan to overdrink. You just have a plan ahead of time.
Natalie MacLean (32:21):
Exactly. And again, for some people, that’s what they need that mental rest of no drinks at all. It’s kind of like people who dress in black every day. There’s nothing wrong with that. But I like variety in my life. I like planning. I like anticipating a beautiful tasting Pinot Noir or whatever. That gives me joy. It doesn’t mentally fatigue me. And then the other point too, Molly, that often comes up is well if you’re measuring and you’re planning, that’s a sure sign you’ve got a problem. I don’t think so. It’s like planning your workouts or planning your wardrobe or anything else. It’s not a sure sign. It’s a sure sign that you want control over your life, that you want a vacation that doesn’t end in misery because you forgot to plan some plane transfers or whatever. I think that’s false reasoning, and I even woven through this book as well, is the witch theme.
A lot of people think that they hear the title Wine Witch on Fire, and they think this must be about an angry woman who drinks a lot of wine and owns a lot of cats. But it’s not. But there’s lots of humour and a happy ending. But people think in the olden days, a witch – I have all this sort of history – but they would throw a woman into a lake or a pond, and if she floated then that was a sure sign she was a witch because witches were said to reject the sacrament of baptism. But if she sank, then of course she was not a witch. So you either drowned or you floated and we’re a witch, and then we’re dragged to the stake to be burned. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t. And it’s like, can we get out of. It’s binary thinking, black and white. Let’s find that middle ground planning is just fine.
Molly Watts (34:08):
And one of the things that I talk about here a lot, which is I think so important – and I know you will agree with – the biggest impact that we can have and the most benefit that we can do is not the change from drinking seven to 10 drinks a week down to zero. It’s from drinking 30 to 40 drinks per week down to seven to 10. That’s where we can impact people. That’s where the real value is and it’s those people that are drinking up at that higher level that may not understand how much they have to gain from drinking less. Talk to me a little bit about that. In your own life, what benefits have you found from being a mindful drinker, being somebody who plans ahead, not having episodes of over-drinking, what does that mean for you in your own life?
Natalie MacLean (35:01):
So many benefits. I mean, I’ve mentioned one and that is slowing down and actually savoruing wine. That was my starting position when I first started writing about wine. When I first started even just drinking – I didn’t get into any sort of alcohol till my late twenties and I didn’t like beer and whiskey – it was too bitter for me. But I loved wine because I didn’t find it to be the same way. But the benefits apart from savouring it, are not waking up at the witching hour of 3:00 AM because it really wreaks havoc on your sleep. We all think a nightcap is a way to fall asleep. Sure, it will relax you and then as your body processes it, it’s going to bring you up out of your sleep. Sometime in the middle of the night, it’ll elevate your heart rate. It’ll make you sweat perhaps a little bit.
So better sleep. Better sleep translates directly to better mood. Being able to get more done in my productive workday, being nicer to the people around me and not snapping. It saved me money for sure, in terms of not buying so much wine either for home consumption or restaurants. It really has changed my life in a variety of ways. And when I’m not going to a restaurant and trying to anesthetize myself right up front for the social situation at hand, I kind of come down, relax, come back into my body. I need a drink is all up in my head. I need a drink. I need a drink. Relax down into my body, even put my hand on my heart and say get reconnected here. And try to just be with these people for who they are. There’s going to be boring spots in the conversation. There’s going to be times maybe you feel a little like you don’t like the conversation. There’s going to be all sorts of things, but you don’t need to drown that out with another glass of wine. You can be here, really be here with these people.
Molly Watts (36:55):
I love that. And I know you talk about that in the book about connection and how it’s ironic because so many of us think that we’re drinking in these social settings to enhance connection. But yet then when we over drink, we are actually taking ourselves further and further away from what we set out to do in the beginning. And that idea – and I talk about that here all the time too – it’s what we believe about alcohol versus what the reality is in terms of what we are experiencing when we over drink. And we have to be willing to separate that story out in our brains and really challenge those old ideas and those beliefs with a new set of what is actually, this is actually what I want to do. And then when you allow yourself to really sink into that and to be there and to focus on the relationships and to remind yourself, oh I enjoy spending time with this person. It isn’t the alcohol but I actually. Or to your point, sometimes you’re going to go, oh you know what this is kind of boring, and that’s okay. I can do boring. I can allow boring to be here for a minute and I don’t have to drink myself to drink over it, to not feel this and experience it.
Natalie MacLean (38:16):
Exactly. And two more benefits I just thought of – there’s probably even longer list – but I lost weight because the body preferentially will burn alcohol before it will burn fat. So if you’re not putting as much alcohol into your body, it’s going to burn more fat. And just overall, but also shame. There were times when I didn’t remember certain parts of an evening with friends. Those are blackouts. That’s when the alcohol is overwhelming your brain. To have to get up the next morning and ask my partner, did I say anything stupid? Did I do anything stupid? It’s so shameful. I’m ashamed of myself. So no more of that.
Molly Watts (39:01):
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the shame aspect is something that we do talk about a lot as well, and it’s one of those consequences of overdrinking that we have to be willing to look at it with curiosity and compassion with ourselves.
Natalie MacLean
That’s true.
Molly Watts
But being able to move forward from that and understand that there’s an opportunity here to not have that happen.
Natalie MacLean
Absolutely.
Molly Watts
That you have that capacity to do it. Another part, and I know we will wrap up because I could probably talk to you all day and we’d have a really long conversation.
Natalie MacLean (39:37):
I would love that sometime.
Molly Watts (39:39):
So one of the things I get from people all the time too or critics of this line of thinking that moderation is possible, that mindful drinking is possible. They will say to me, well yeah but then once you start drinking – you’ve got this plan, this doable drink plan – but what happens when you start drinking and you’re no longer being logical. You’re no longer using that prefrontal cortex. And it’s just very easy to not stick to a plan. So again, therefore, if we just don’t ever drink, we don’t have that conundrum of having to stick to a plan when our brain’s no longer logical. Tell me your thoughts on that.
Natalie MacLean (40:25):
Well, certainly alcohol does lower your inhibitions and some of the most embarrassing things I’ve ever said were after three or four glasses of wine. I think that still, that game plan, knowing you still have it in mind because you made it before you had your first sip, that’s still going to help even when your inhibitions are lowered. You can remember I made this plan. Why? Because of all those reasons, all those benefits, future Nat is going to thank me when she gets up tomorrow. I want to arrive tomorrow morning in a state where I can get up and write as opposed to get up and go ugh, I need an Advil. So I think that can help. And then I have a very good and loving partner.
Even I did go through divorce, but I met a wonderful man and he’s my wing man in every sense. So it’s not that he’s policing my alcohol. He’s very gentle and not nonjudgmental. In fact, he’s amazing because I used to do something which I call pre-drinking – which is a misnomer. But I would’ve a glass of wine before we went to a restaurant just so that I could be loosened up more than everybody else. And then cumulatively the amount I was drinking just got to be too much quicker than anybody else. And he told me, please see if you cannot do that. And he wasn’t saying it in a judgmental shaming way. He was saying, I want to be on the same plain as you. I want to have the same experience. I think he would’ve almost been willing to have a glass of wine with me before we went out. But then we both realized we’re just both going to have way too much wine. So I love him for that. So if you have someone in your life who can be a support person who can just gently put their hand on your thigh or whatever, or just a signal or anything, I think that sort of community support in whatever form it might take can also be helpful, especially after glass one or two.
Molly Watts (42:26):
And the thing of it is – and I say this to people all the time – yes, it may be harder. It’s certainly not impossible. Every single person I’ve ever spoken to, I’ve said has there ever been a time when you’ve had two glasses or two beers or two anything and stopped? And they’ll say, oh yeah of course I’ve had that. That’s happened. So if it has happened, then we know it can happen. Then it is possible. The idea that we cannot incorporate alcohol into our lives in a mindful way is something that I am going to keep working to make sure that people hear. It is possible. You can do this. And you should want to do it in a way that aligns with long-term health goals, that have science backed behind them. Because there is true science, ladies, there is ample reason to drink less in your life. I mean, that is true, ladies and gentlemen. 100%. An abundance of reasons.
Natalie MacLean (43:25):
And I also share very openly in this in Wine Witch on Fire. I have been and still am on Zoloft, which is an antidepressant. And another benefit is that alcohol is a depressant. So it will dampen and decrease what that drug is trying to do for you. And it’s dangerous anyway to mix drugs and alcohol. I moderately and everyone needs to go talk to their doctor. This is not medical advice, but I didn’t realize that at first, that why I’m taking these antidepressants. Why do I still feel down?
Molly Watts
Yeah, exactly.
Natalie MacLean
What’s wrong with this? I need another prescription. So I found as I backed off the alcohol, my mood lifted exponentially because not only was I not having this depressant in alcohol, but it was allowing the drug to do what it’s supposed to do – the medicine, I should say. And then yet one more benefit. I’ll just throw one more in. You get your nights back. So after two glasses of wine, I’m not asleep on the sofa. I get my night back. I used to say, oh I have no time to read. By the time I go to bed, I’m too tired to read. Well, no it wasn’t. You were too tired. Your brain was marinated, and so you fell asleep and that’s why you couldn’t read. So being honest about that. But getting my nights back was another huge benefit.
Molly Watts (44:41):
Yeah. Oh, I agree. I agree with all of it. I know part of your work, in terms of bringing this book to life, as you’ve actually been doing some writer’s workshops and helping people who want to write a book. I always say – I wrote a book, too – you can’t write a book if you’re over drinking at night. That’s never going to happen. I mean, I don’t know about you, but at least it would’ve never happened for me.
Natalie MacLean (45:01):
That’s true, and it’s a false misconception that some of the greatest writers who have been alcoholics, it was the alcohol that was helping them. It was not. They perhaps could have been more productive or whatever, but that’s just a romantic illusion. It really does not help the creativity muse.
Molly Watts (45:22):
Natalie McLean, let’s tell people where they can pick up Wine Witch on Fire.
Natalie MacLean (45:28):
So you can get it wherever books are sold. So every online retailer from Amazon to Barnes and Noble. Also, please support your local independent bookstores. Whether they have it in stock or not, they can always order it for you online. I will be soon recording the audio version of this book, so it’ll be out next year. But it’s available now as paperback or ebook. And if you need any information or links to all those retailers, it’s on my website WineWitchOnFire.com. We’ll take you right to where all the retailers are. Also, I have lots of bonuses for those who do buy the book from sign book plates to online wine tastings to all kinds of goodies.
Molly Watts (46:13):
Yeah. Yeah. We will link that in the show notes, folks. Natalie MacLean, thank you so very much for being here today. I really appreciate it. This is just a fantastic conversation. I hope we can talk again. I think we probably could cover even more, and I appreciate you taking the time.
Natalie MacLean (46:31):
Oh, Molly, thank you for your interest. I’m so glad you reached out. You’re doing a really important service here with the message that’s on this podcast. I think there’s not enough of this conversation happening, so thank you for including me in it. And you asked some terrific questions, and definitely we need to carry on a much longer conversation for one glass of wine, maybe two. That’s it.
Molly Watts (46:54):
I love it. I love it. Alright, thank you all.
Natalie MacLean (47:03):
Well, there you have it. I hope you enjoyed our chat with Molly. In the show notes, you’ll find a full transcript of my conversation with Molly, links to her website and podcast, the video versions of these conversations on Facebook and YouTube live, and where you can order my book online now no matter where you live. You’ll also find a link to the free online food and wine pairing class that you can take with me. It’s called The Five Wine and Food Pairing Mistakes That Can Ruin Your Dinner and How to Fix Them Forever at nataliemaclean.com/class. That’s all in the show notes at nataliemaclean.com/267. Email me if you have a sip, tip, question or if you’ve read my book or are in the process of reading it at natalie@natalie maclean.com. I’d love to hear from you.
If you missed episode 11, go back and take a listen. I chat about ice wine pairings and cocktails with Karen King. It’s Ice Wine harvest season right now, so you’ll get some insights into this unique, lovely wine. I’ll share a short clip with you now to whet your appetite.
Karen King (48:11):
We decided to pair it again with spicy appetizers, things like tortilla chips or anything that has a little spicy chili heat kind of a flavour to it so that people could taste it and see how it pairs. Because it has a big initial impact of complex fruit, then it goes through that caramelized flavour, and then it gets into its acidity, and usually at the end there’s another kind of fruit note. In this case, it’s the orange, tangerine, grapefruit note. So I’m going to have you taste it straight up first, just so you can notice the last notes and you really have to pay attention for those.
Natalie MacLean (48:56):
I’m loving that. I don’t think it needs anything, but…
Karen King
You mean food?
Natalie.
No. Just pair it with more of this.
Natalie MacLean (49:04):
You won’t want to miss next week when we chat with Keith Granger, author of Wine Faults and Flaws: A Practical Guide which won the coveted 2022 Prix de l’OIV. He’ll be joining us from his home in London, England.
If you like this episode, please email or tell one friend about it this week, especially someone who’d be interested in the wines, tips, and stories we shared. It’s easy to find my podcast. Just tell them to search for Natalie MacLean Wine on their favorite podcast app. Thank you for taking the time to join me here. I hope something great is in your glass this week, perhaps a delicious low alcohol wine.
You don’t want to miss one juicy episode of this podcast, especially the secret full bodied bonus episodes that I don’t announce on social media. So subscribe for free now at nataliemaclean.com/subscribe. Meet me here next week. Cheers.
