How Can You Improve Your Sense of Smell with Wine? Johannes Frasnelli Has Great Tips

Natalie MacLean
Nov20th

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Introduction

How can you train your sense of smell? Why does smelling require much more focus than our other senses? What is retronasal olfaction and why is it so important when it comes to enjoying wine?

In this episode of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, I’m chatting with author Johannes Frasnelli.

You can find the wines we discussed here.

 

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Highlights

  • Do wine aroma kits help to improve our ability to smell and taste wine?
  • What positive changes occur in the brains of master sommeliers?
  • How does our emotional state influence our ability to perceive scents?
  • Do humans have pheromones, and how can our body odours influence each other?
  • Is there a difference in how our brains process wine aromas compared to synthetic scents?
  • How is olfactory marketing used by certain brands to improve their customer experience?
  • What is the role of retronasal olfaction in wine tasting and flavour perception?
  • What is synesthesia, and how does it relate to perception in wine tasting?
  • What are the main factors that influence the recovery of the sense of smell?
  • Which areas of olfactory research are Johannes most excited about?
  • Who would Johannes love to share a bottle of wine with?

 

Key Takeaways

  • How can you train your sense of smell?
    • Johannes explains that master sommeliers train their brain’s sense of smell just as many people train physically when they go to the gym. The key is to make it challenging. If somebody is a newbie, 15 minutes on the bike will be enough to get the training effect, but not for someone who runs marathons. It’s the same for the brain. What we can train most about smell is its connection with language. It’s important to talk about the smells we detect with each other. It’s not enough just to have odors go by. You have to actively try to identify them.
  • Why does smelling require much more focus than our other senses?
    • Smelling is difficult for humans Johannes observes. We can oversee a visual scenery very quickly. With smelling, we don’t have these abilities. When we smell something in our environment, it is much more work for us to identify the particular odors, and we have to concentrate. We don’t do that a lot. So you need to have the mental spare time to focus.
  • What is retronasal olfaction?
    • Johannes says that retronasal olfaction is not only when you swallow wine, it’s also when you have it in your mouth. When sommeliers swish the wine around their mouths, the molecules heat up and get pushed up into the nasal cavity, which is also part of the retro nasal component. You can test this by just pinching your nose. You won’t smell because it’s blocked in the front, the air cannot enter. Then as soon as you release the nose, then you will have this additional smell dimension. Retronasal olfaction is really the key player when it comes to smell and flavor perception.

 

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What we can train most about smells is the connection with language. - Johannes Frasnelli Johannes Frasnelli Click to tweet

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For us, smelling is difficult. - Johannes Frasnelli Johannes Frasnelli Click to tweet

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We influence each other via our body odours. - Johannes Frasnelli Johannes Frasnelli Click to tweet

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Smells, especially when it comes to body odour, are taboo. - Johannes Frasnelli Johannes Frasnelli Click to tweet

 

About Johannes Frasnelli

After being trained as a physician at University of Vienna, Austria, Johannes Frasnelli was a visiting scientist in research labs in Dresden, Germany, in Philadelphia, PA, in Stockholm, Sweden, and in Bozen, Italy. He is currently a professor for human anatomy at the University of Quebec at Trois-Rivières (UQTR), while also being a regular researcher at the Research Center of the Sacré-Coeur Hospital of Montreal. His research focuses on the physiology, the psychology and the pathology of the sense of smell.

 

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Transcript

Natalie MacLean 00:00:00 How can you train your sense of smell? Why does smelling require so much more focus than our other senses? And what is retro nasal olfaction? And why is it so important when it comes to enjoying wine? In today’s episode, you’ll hear the stories and tips that answer those questions. In part two of our chat with Johannes Fresnel, a physician and professor focused on the sense of smell. You don’t need to have listened to part one from last week first, but if you missed it, go back and have a listen after you finish this one. By the end of our conversation, you’ll also discover whether wine aroma kits help improve our ability to smell and taste wine. The positive changes that occur in the brains of Master Sommeliers. How are our emotional states influence our ability to perceive scents? The differences in how our brains process wine aromas compared to synthetic scents. How all factory marketing is used by certain brands to improve their customer experience. Why certain smells, especially when it comes to body odor, are taboo.

Natalie MacLean 00:01:12 How we influence each other via our body odors and whether or not we have pheromones. What synesthesia is and how it relates to perception in wine tasting, and the main factors that influence the recovery of your sense of smell. Do you have a thirst to learn about wine? Do you love stories about wonderfully obsessive people, hauntingly beautiful places, and amusingly awkward social situations? Well, that’s the blend here on the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast. I’m your host, Natalie MacLean, and each week I share with you unfiltered conversations with celebrities in the wine world, as well as confessions from my own tipsy journey as I write my third book on this subject. I’m so glad you’re here. Now pass me that bottle, please, and let’s get started. Welcome to episode 312. Speaking of evocative aromas, I wanted to share some thoughts on wine and pumpkin spice, the smell that seems synonymous with fall when it comes to specialty drinks and food, and the one that seems inescapable if you walk into any coffee shop at this time of the year.

Natalie MacLean 00:02:38 First, what is pumpkin spice and how did it become so popular? Pumpkin spice is made from cinnamon, clove, nutmeg, and allspice. It usually doesn’t contain any real pumpkin bits, but that’s never stopped a good marketer from positioning it as the smell and taste of warm, fuzzy feelings about fall, family, and snuggly sweaters. We love it because it’s both sweet and tangy, like life’s perfect postcard moments and all your Instagram filters for make me look ten years younger. I was so happy then. So how would you pair this flavor with wine? A pumpkin spice bread or muffin that’s more savory than sweet would work well with a wine that’s aged in oak barrels to add some vanilla, spice and toasted hazelnut aromas. This type of wine would also pair well with a salad topped with roasted pumpkin seeds or pumpkin stuffed ravioli drizzled with sage butter. If you prefer red wine, try a California Zinfandel with aromas of black cherry and dark spice. This would also drink beautifully with a pumpkin courier soup. What about a pumpkin spice cake that’s a little sweeter? Glad you asked.

Natalie MacLean 00:03:58 I go with a late harvest wine, like a German Riesling with notes of apricot and lemon meringue. These wines have more residual sugar because the grapes hang on the vine a bit longer, but they also have some zingy acidity for the spice. Also, try these wines with a pumpkin spice glazed ham. My mouth is watering. I’m making myself hungry and thirsty right now. How about you? So you could opt for a red that has some natural sweetness, like a California Cabernet with notes of cocoa, anise and cardamom spice. These would also Nestle in nicely alongside roasted pumpkin slices and smoked paprika. Well, how about pumpkin pie? Let’s just get down to it. We want to match the sweetness in the pie with greater sweetness in the wine. Otherwise the wine will taste bitter by comparison. I’d recommend a lovely Niagara Riesling ice wine or a French Southern. Both have a voluptuous mouth coating texture with seductive aromas of peach preserves and honey, and both would also make great companions to certain coffee drinks that are really more of a pumpkin spice ice cream dessert than a coffee.

Natalie MacLean 00:05:15 All right, I have winners to announce. Both Jerry Hall from Delaware and Harry Hanson from Seattle have won a copy of Tony Edwards new book. The Very good News about Wine. I have one copy left to give away. Leanne Witherspoon from California has won a copy of Gus Xu’s new book, Behind the Glass The Chemical and Sensorial Terroir of Wine Tasting. I also still have one copy left of the following books to give away inspirational memoirs and memories of the women who shaped Ontario’s grape and wine industry, by Jennifer Willam. The smart Traveler’s wine guide to Roger Morioka, edited by Adam Leshner. And Wine Bites, 64. Simple nibbles that pair Perfectly with wine by Barbara Scott Goodman that has recipes in it. Beautiful photos too. It doesn’t matter where you live, you can qualify and win. All you have to do is email me and let me know that you’d like to win a copy. I’ll choose four people randomly from those who contact me at Natalie at Natalie MacLean. Com. In other bookish news, if you’re reading the paperback or e-book or listening to the audiobook of my memoir wine, which on fire rising from the ashes of divorce, defamation and drinking too much.

Natalie MacLean 00:06:35 I’d love to hear from you at Natalie at Natalie MacLean. Com. If you’d like to give this book as a holiday gift. Oh, you’re so thoughtful. I’d be happy to send you personally signed book plates, both for yourself and for the copies that you give as gifts. I’ll put a link in the show notes to all retailers worldwide at Natalie MacLean dot Com forward slash 312. Okay, on with the show. If we want to become better tasters and sellers, I would think pay attention to the smells in your life. Like when you cut open vegetables or fruits. They’re more pungent. But do those vending kits help? Like they sell the vials, little essences of cinnamon and whatever, and you sniff, and then you try to find it in the wine. Do you think those really help us?

Johannes Frasnelli 00:07:24 So we have done different studies, not with those ones, but we have done different studies with people who have lost their sense of smell, Covid or other viral infections. We have done studies with students that have a normal sense of smell.

Johannes Frasnelli 00:07:34 Young people. We have done studies with the sommelier students, and we have done studies with Master Sommeliers. So high end sommeliers and in all these studies, people did olfactory training. And in all these studies their sense of smell got better. And in all these studies we also saw effects on the structure of the brain. But what is the key takeaway here is that you have to do something that is challenging for the individual in question, which means that if we take people that have lost their sense of smell or do a smell training where they basically smell four different odors and just try to smell, do you smell something? Do I perceive something, yes or no? That is challenging for them because they can’t smell or it can smell very little, and this is useful for them. With the students that we tested, we cannot do this kind of training because it would not help them. They need something that is challenging for them, for appropriate for them. And so it is for the so many students.

Johannes Frasnelli 00:08:26 We did not formally trained them, but they got the training in during their training one and a half years of training and the same as that master somebody is they exercise themselves, they train themselves. But it has to be always something that is challenging. It is like when you do sports, you go to the gym. If somebody is a newbie, well, you know, 50 minutes on on the bike will be enough to get some training effect. If somebody runs a marathon every other week, 15 minutes on a bike won’t have any effect on them. And it’s the same for the brain and what we can train most about smells is really we described the olfactory apparatus before is the brain. So what we can train most is the connection with the language. And so I think what is extremely important is that we talk about the smells that we communicate, that we exchange with each other, that we see. What do you think? What do I think? So it’s not enough to just be at home, watch TV and have others go by a conveyor belt of odors that would probably not have a huge effect, but you have to actively try to work with the others.

Johannes Frasnelli 00:09:23 And working is smelling, trying to do tasks, trying to talk about it, get feedback. And I think that is what really helps and what can make our sense of smell better.

Natalie MacLean 00:09:33 Yes, I’ve heard that that it’s not just paying attention, it’s actually saying it out loud really helps. Like it’s probably activating different types. Maybe even writing it down might be a different mode and really trying to cement in, okay, that cinnamon, that kind of thing. And I think you alluded to this, but have there been studies that show that the brains of well trained sommeliers are more active or more developed in this capacity.

Johannes Frasnelli 00:09:57 Yes, indeed. We did this with the Master Sommeliers where we looked at the different regions of the brain. Now they are quite difficult to get a grasp and we were able to include, I think 13 of them is a study that we did in Las Vegas because I didn’t know that. But there is a lot of master sommeliers in Las Vegas, and we were able to have everybody, all the masters of Las Vegas, participate in that study.

Johannes Frasnelli 00:10:16 So we looked at their brain, and what we saw is that one region of the brain, the anterior cortex, which is part of the limbic system, which is also mainly responsible for memory, the surface of the brain in this specific area, in the sommeliers, master sommeliers got bigger the longer they had been working, the older they were. Usually the older we get, the thinner the cortex gets. We lose gray matter, we lose neurons during our life. But in these Master Sommeliers we had the inverse effect. They got thicker. So it looks like the job that they are doing, their profession that leads them to smell very actively, to work with the sense of smell, to memorize orders, to memorize other things makes it in a way that the cortex in these areas of the brain gets thicker with age and not thinner. So that’s extremely interesting. You know, it means that we have probably some plasticity in the brain. But it also leads us to the question, does that also mean that because the limbic system is not just responsible for smelling, but also to emotions and responsible for memory, do they also have better memory? Do they have a better memory when they’re older? Are they more protected from dementia? They’re more protective from Alzheimer’s disease.

Johannes Frasnelli 00:11:25 Are they more protected from, let’s say, depression, something that is related with emotions. So these are questions that we do not have the answers to yet. It’s also quite difficult to study from a scientific perspective, but something that I would definitely want to look at.

Natalie MacLean 00:11:39 Yeah, absolutely. And is there some sense that it would be good to have these smell tests as regularly as we have eye exams, so that perhaps they could be predicting if we’re susceptible to getting Alzheimer’s or Parkinson’s.

Johannes Frasnelli 00:11:53 I don’t think we are there yet because it’s also quite time consuming. It’s costly, and the benefit of having smell exams is relatively limited, especially because we can do afterwards. If somebody can’t see well, well, we can put glasses on. If somebody doesn’t hear well, we have Aids with the sense of smell. We are not there yet. It’s also the smell impairment gives us information about the state of the brain with regards to some medical conditions Parkinson’s, Alzheimer’s and so on. But also there we do not have yet interventions that actually allow us to to say with confidence, it would be good to do that now.

Johannes Frasnelli 00:12:31 So I think we’re going in this direction, and I think that the sense of smell will just become more and more important, and we will be more and more aware of the implications of all of this. But we need to do more research.

Natalie MacLean 00:12:43 Excellent. All right. And so how do emotional states like stress or relaxation influence our ability to perceive sound. I’m assuming if we’re stressed, we’re not smelling as much. Or are we hypercritical, aware of sense?

Johannes Frasnelli 00:12:57 I mean, there is no straightforward connection there. There is indirect connections. I would say, first and foremost, if we are focusing on something, well, we don’t focus on something else. So we would have a harder time probably focusing on smells. It may be also that when we stress that we breathe differently, and breathing is an integral part of the olfactory processing cascade if we want. So. So generally speaking, it’s not that there is a direct link there. But like with sound, if you go visual testing, you don’t have something going on in the background while you’re trying to read the letters.

Johannes Frasnelli 00:13:32 I have good eyesight, so I do not know exactly what happens when you go to to eye test or when you have a hearing test. You try to do that in a calm environment and the same is with smelling. You try to make it in a way that the person is able to focus on what’s going on, and if you have something else in your mind and then you will be just absent minded, and you probably won’t be able to perceive and especially appreciate to that degree. For us, smelling is difficult. We can oversee a visual scenery very fast. And, you know, we look how I can see the others. My wife and I can see her down there and we can focus with smelling. We don’t have these abilities when we have when we try to find something in a, let’s say, an olfactory scenery, it is much more work for us to detect these kind of things. And we have to concentrate. We have to focus. We don’t do it a lot. So you need to have the mental spare time or spare place to do that kind of thing.

Natalie MacLean 00:14:24 Right? Right. Pictures worth a thousand words. But a scent is, I don’t know, worth one word, two words or something. It’s a lot harder. And can you discuss the role of pheromones in human olfaction, whether they play a part, say, if we’re tasting wine?

Johannes Frasnelli 00:14:38 Yeah. I mean, the basic question is, do we have pheromones? Do we humans have pheromones? And so far the research has not been able to identify any substance that could be classified as a pheromone. We have also not observed any mechanism or any phenomenon that could be caused by by pheromones. In other words, this is the strongest. Know that the scientists could say we we don’t know. Maybe we find at some point. But so far in layman’s term, humans do not have pheromones, just.

Natalie MacLean 00:15:11 Animals.

Johannes Frasnelli 00:15:12 And not all animals. Some animals have also some mammals, but in humans we have not found anything. It’s probably also linked to the fact that we have this huge brain. Pheromones are mono molecular substances produced by one individual of a species, received by a second individual of the same species.

Johannes Frasnelli 00:15:27 That evokes a very stereotypical reaction in this second individual. And in humans, we do not have stereotypical reactions. We can react even to the most unpleasant stimuli pain. We can react differently. Some people hate pain. Some people love pain. As we can see people run marathons or people use very spicy food or people like a certain kinds of sex that involves pain. So even this very, very fundamental negative stimulus, pain in humans does not evoke a stereotypical reaction and even less so, chemical substances. So if we look at this definition that I just gave you a pheromones, there is this stereotypical reaction that probably in humans does not exist, and therefore we do not have substances that fulfill these criteria. And therefore we probably do not have pheromones in humans. Even if we had pheromones, they would probably mostly influence our interpersonal behavior that could be sexual, you know, between a man and a woman or between man, a man and a woman and women. But, you know, that’s not all the pheromones we know from the animal kingdom.

Johannes Frasnelli 00:16:29 There’s also pheromones between mother and the child and newborn and so on, and other actions. But we do not have anything. And so therefore, the influence on wine and tasting and wine perception is certainly limited or at all absent.

Natalie MacLean 00:16:44 Okay, cool. This may or may not be related, but there was a study. Maybe you did it. I’m not sure. But the sweaty t shirts and horror movies. What was going on there?

Johannes Frasnelli 00:16:54 Yeah. So basically I talked about pheromones a lot, and I said that probably we do not have pheromones, but this does not mean I don’t want to say that we don’t influence each other via our body odors. We do influence each other. This can go in many, many directions. And one of these directions is that we also convey information about our emotional state, the basic emotions that we have, like fear and joy and anger and and disgust, so we can transport them via our body odor. We don’t do that consciously. We don’t perceive that consciously, but it influences us.

Johannes Frasnelli 00:17:26 And one of the studies, there were people that were parachuting for the first time. Of course, it’s something extremely stressful. They’re really frightened. They’re very scared. And the researchers gave them t shirts in which they put some breastfeeding pads under the armpits so that they would collect the sweat of the people. And so they came down. Everybody was okay afterwards, but they had, of course, been very, very scared. These breast feeding pads were collected and the orders in these breastfeeding pads so that the air was screaming over it was presented to people that were watching horror movies, people they didn’t know what they were exposed to. They didn’t know what this was, was the smell was there. They did not even perceive the smell. But they experienced the horror movie as much more scary than when they were exposed to breastfeeding pads of of people that had been to the gym. So they have been sweaty too. They have been smelly too. But there is something in the smell and we don’t know what it is.

Johannes Frasnelli 00:18:17 We don’t know if it’s a molecule, if it’s a combination of molecules. But that conveys this information. On an anecdotal note, I’m, as I said, the professor for anatomy. So at the end of the semester we have anatomy exams. And that’s something where students are usually also very scared. And I have the impression and I don’t know, this is not scientific. When I entered the room and I see those students, I have the impression that I can smell their fear. Even as I said, if this is not scientific.

Natalie MacLean 00:18:46 Well, maybe you’re sending out other orders, like relax, relax. You’ll be okay.

Johannes Frasnelli 00:18:49 I’m trying, I’m trying. I’m trying to just want to relax them. Bye bye. You know, dropping a couple of jokes, but usually this doesn’t work that well. I have I have learned it’s not the moment.

Natalie MacLean 00:19:00 Is it true? We have something like 120 odors that comprise our body odor?

Johannes Frasnelli 00:19:05 We don’t know. That’s the short answer. We have sweat glands all over our body.

Johannes Frasnelli 00:19:09 We have on our hands and our face and so on. And most of those glands, they produce only water and salt, and they help us to regulate the temperature and maybe also the salt homeostasis. But we have some areas of the body in the armpit, in the genital region where we have another type of glands. And these glands, they do not just produce water and salt, they also produce a cocktail of substances. The composition of this cocktail is individually different, and it’s this cocktail of substances that creates the very distinct body odor that each and every one of us has. But it’s very difficult to measure, and it’s very difficult to pinpoint what is actually the component that makes us smell. In addition, this cocktail of substances is influenced by what we eat. So if we eat garlic, we smell garlic. If we eat curry, we smell curry curry. It depends on our hygiene. If we shower every day or if we shower every every five hours over a shower once a week, it depends on the bacteria we have on our body that then metabolizes whatever comes there.

Johannes Frasnelli 00:20:06 It depends on the detergents that we use for laundry and some of the perfumes we put on, and so on. So when we perceive the body odor of somebody else and also this is we perceive different parts, we perceive it, but not necessarily consciously, but it’s this cocktail of substances that is modulated and metabolized and so on that then creates this. It’s also when two people come closer to each other, let’s say from a office mate to a intimate sex partner, of course, you come in contact with much closer in different contexts, and the perception will also change and the substances that we are exposed to. So it is not easy. We cannot say we have 100. We have 120. There’s many, many. But it’s also different from one person to the next. And there’s other stuff that is going on on the surface of our skin.

Natalie MacLean 00:20:53 So complex. Great. And so when we come back to wine aromas, do we process those differently in our brain from synthetic artificial scents like perfumes or air fresheners?

Johannes Frasnelli 00:21:05 The thing is, at the basis, all smells are chemical substances.

Johannes Frasnelli 00:21:11 So from that perspective, there is no difference. However, there is a difference and the difference is the following. If a company tries to recreate, let’s say, the smell of onions for potato chips, we can use actual onions and roast them. And then we have probably 200 250 different molecules in this that we could then use on a spice or something that we put on the chips, or we could see which are the most dominant of these molecules, which are the ones that are in the highest concentration. And do they smell like onion? Then I take the top four and put them on it, And it’s probably enough to create the sensation of an onion. So both will smell like onion, but it’s not the same composition, so it cannot be excluded that this is perceived quite differently. And we all know that there is some artificial smells and flavors, and there is some that are more natural, and the artificial ones are typically way stronger. But it’s due to what I just explained. There is usually just 2 or 3 substances that are used that are enough to make a candy smell like apple, but it is not the same thing as in the real apple, because in the real apple we have all these different odors.

Johannes Frasnelli 00:22:15 So that’s one thing. The other thing is that when we have artificial scents, we often tend to have less, but also in higher concentrations. But because, you know, if you make 5 or 10% does not make a big difference anymore. So then you have much stronger odors. And this is a little bit the tricky issue with olfactory marketing, for example, that is used by some companies, by hotels, by boutiques, clothing chains and so on. But it could be attractive to some, but it could be very repellent for other people. And so you have to find the right balance to say, okay, you know, I attract the people that I want to have here, and I don’t care about the rest, but you have to find the right level, you know, factor marketing. Again, if you have a bakery from the 19th century, it smells wonderful of bread. You know, that’s probably the best marketing that you could have. So to come back to the question that you had about the wine in wine, there is also and I’m not a specialist of this, there is a multitude of substances that is in there, and it’s really in the ensemble of these substances that create the very distinct flavor that we perceive.

Johannes Frasnelli 00:23:21 Again, by the sense of smell. It’s the most important one. But then we also have the sense we have all the other ones taste and trigeminal and texture and whatnot. That adds and they then allow us to have the complete appreciation of the flavor.

Natalie MacLean 00:23:34 Right, right. Yeah. No, it’s interesting you mentioned olfactory marketing, and I just reading lately that certain hotel chains have a certain smell. I guess they’re putting it on the sheets. And the even the the maids who are cleaning the rooms are wearing outfits that have this signature smell.

Johannes Frasnelli 00:23:50 Yes, yes, the idea is clear. They try to create these olfactory memories and and a distinct signature. But you have to be careful. It’s not, you know, it’s turned.

Natalie MacLean 00:24:00 Off some people. Yeah. I think there’s even. Is it Lowe’s or one of the hardware stores deliberately uses fresh cut wood. And yet there’s no wood being cut in the store. But they’re putting it into the store just so you get that smell. It’s fascinating and retro nasal.

Natalie MacLean 00:24:15 Let’s just we touched on it. But going back to that is that after you taste the wine, heat it up, swallow it, and you breathe back through your nose. Is that the heated up molecules? Is that what retro nasal?

Johannes Frasnelli 00:24:26 It’s not only when you swallow it, when you have it in the mouth, you know, when you have a when you watch a sommelier and probably do it too, if you take a sip and then you make all these movements in with your tongue, with your palate and so on to really appreciate. But by doing that, all the molecules will already be pushed into the nasal cavity and you will already have the perception of, you know, the olfactory component, the retro nasal component. You can test that by just pinching your nose. If you pinch your nose while you do that, you don’t perceive anything because even if it’s just blocked in the front, the air cannot enter because there’s already air in there. And then as soon as you release the nose, then you will have this additional dimension and you will really perceive it.

Johannes Frasnelli 00:25:06 So the sense of smell, retina’s olfaction is really the key player when it comes to flavor perception.

Natalie MacLean 00:25:11 Wow. Sure. So we talked about improving our sense of smell, the pathology of smell, being able to detect certain diseases. We talked about, maybe just talk about synesthesia where people see colors or shapes when smelling wine. Is that just a cross-modal cross wiring that’s happening in the brain?

Johannes Frasnelli 00:25:30 So it’s not entirely clear what synesthesia is exactly. It’s also not entirely clear how common this this condition is. You have these those very extreme cases of people, you know, really having one modality activated and they have a very clear perception in another one. But we can all be a little bit synesthetic. If I ask you which of those two sounds is sharper is a boom, boom or kakak, you probably would say kakak is sharper, so sharp it has nothing to do with with the sounds that I just made. This is a touch description, but we use it for that. So I think we are to some extent we are all a little bit synesthetic because we use these cross-modal or we perceive cross-modal similar things.

Johannes Frasnelli 00:26:09 But then you have the extreme where people really have a taste and say, this is blue. I have a student who’s completely regular student, a very good student that said, yeah, he’s a synesthetic. And for him is the days of the week. They have clear colors. So Wednesday is yellow and the Thursday is green or something like that. And I said, wow, this is really interesting. I asked somebody in the lab, we have 12 people in the lab said, oh yeah, I have that too. So apparently this is a quite common condition. But I think what you’re referring to is really these extreme cases of synthetics where you have this very strong, not just perceptions or cross-modal perceptions. The topic is very fascinating, is also very difficult to study, because what we try to do when we study something is we try to group people together so that we compare one group. We can compare one group with another group. The thing with synesthesia, it’s extremely individual. Some people have a synesthesia with this and some have with something else.

Johannes Frasnelli 00:27:00 This makes it, again very difficult to study to understand exactly what’s going on. But what we think the idea is that when we are born, a lot of the brain areas are interconnected with each other, that these connections are not used later in life and then they are pruned away. You know, we don’t need them, so we don’t use them. And so these connections are not existing anymore. This is part of the maturation of the brain. And it seems that in some people these connections do not disappear and keep staying there. And this would explain why when you have a visual input why this would then activate auditory or olfactory sensation at the same time.

Natalie MacLean 00:27:39 Wow, wow. And then back to Covid recovery. Is it just a matter of genetics? I mean, you can you’re trying to help people recover by getting them to smell things. So maybe that’s part of it. But in the end, whether people get their sense of smell back due to an illness is that just genetics?

Johannes Frasnelli 00:27:58 We do not know.

Johannes Frasnelli 00:27:58 We know anosmia and hyperthermia. So the absence of the sense of smell and and the reduced sense of smell that existed already before Covid. And it’s quite common. It’s like 1 in 5 can either not smell at all or smell less. In some of the people, the sense of smell can come back so it can recover. The factors that influence recovery that are known are three. The first one is the cause of the olfactory dysfunction. So people that lost their sense of smell due to a viral infection of the upper respiratory tract, such as Covid or the flu or something like that, they have a higher probability to regain their sense of smell compared to people with a traumatic brain injury, a concussion. The second is the age younger people have a higher probability to recover the sense of smell compared to older ones, and the third one is to time the interval since the loss of sense of smell. If you lost your sense of smell last week, it’s highly probable that it will come back. If it’s already four years, then it’s less likely, that much less likely that will come back.

Johannes Frasnelli 00:28:56 So these are the main factors influencing a factor recovery. Unfortunately this is on a group level again. But we can unfortunately not predict a specific person why the sense of smell comes back in one and the sense of smell does not come back in the other. And this is especially dramatic with Covid, because Covid is a viral infection that affected a lot of young people. Before, it was usually older people 55 and older that would have olfactory problems after infection with Covid. All of a sudden we were young people, and in the acute phase, especially in the earlier variants, you would have 6,070% of the people that lost their sense of smell. Fortunately, in most of the people, the sense of smell came back, but not in all. Some it came back, did not recover completely. Some came back, but they had altered smell perception. That got better after a while. It comes back every time they have a cold it goes away again. So we do not yet know why. Some people have recovery and some people do not have recovery.

Natalie MacLean 00:29:53 So much to learn. I mean, we’ve talked about so many areas that still need to be explored as it relates to our sense of smell. What are you most excited about? What what are you working on? What are you looking forward to finding out?

Johannes Frasnelli 00:30:05 In my lab we have two research access. One axis is to understand how smell testing will allow us to get more information about the brain and the health of the brain, and the state of the brain. We could use that for early screening for Parkinson’s disease and Alzheimer’s disease, and also to see who will have a long term consequence of a traumatic brain injury, such as depression or anxiety disorders. So that’s one aspect. And the other aspect is to better understand how multisensory integration takes place with the chemical senses. How do we integrate, you know, the single Sensory channels into one percept, but also we are looking into plasticity in the in the chemical senses. Can we train them? How does it get better? How do we improve our sense of smell? What happens with the brain if we improve our sense of smell? So that’s what we are doing in the lab.

Johannes Frasnelli 00:30:52 I think if we look at the scientific community in general, something that is really the hot topic right now with the advent of new tools such as artificial intelligence and so on, we will be able soon to better understand how the olfactory code works. So which means basically, we will be able to predict which chemical substances will have what kind of smell. And that will be interesting because we will be able to create new smells, but it will be also interesting for, you know, very distant topics such as insect repellents. Right now we use a handful of insect repellents because we have figured out that they they help, but we have no systematic approach to it. Of the of the millions and billions of chemical substances, we don’t know which one will be, That exist and that we could develop. We don’t know which one will be active against against mosquitoes, for example. And I think with with these new tools, we can analyze the olfactory space with much higher efficiency. And we will be able to to develop these kind of substances.

Johannes Frasnelli 00:31:52 And I think this is really we will hear in the next years a lot about these kind of stuff.

Natalie MacLean 00:31:57 That is mind blowing. Wow. Fantastic. As we wrap up your honest, if you could share a bottle of wine, you said you are an aficionado of wine with anyone in the world, living or dead, who would that be and what would you ask them?

Johannes Frasnelli 00:32:10 This is a very, very interesting question. You said it should be somebody from the wine world or from outside the wine world.

Natalie MacLean 00:32:17 It could be anybody.

Johannes Frasnelli 00:32:18 I would like to have a glass of wine with Barack Obama. I would like to have a glass of wine with him, with wine from my home region in Alto in Italy, where there’s a lot of white wine, but also quite tasty red wine, which I really appreciate. And I would like to have a chat with him and I would ask him what went wrong, but that that is what I would like to have a discussion.

Natalie MacLean 00:32:40 Well, that’s a big question that that requires a whole bottle of wine, I think.

Natalie MacLean 00:32:46 as we wrap up the honest, is there anything we haven’t covered that you wanted to mention?

Johannes Frasnelli 00:32:51 Just one thing. It’s not so much that we did not cover it, but I think a take home message is that we have to talk more about smells. Smells, especially when it comes to body odor, is a taboo. We can tell a colleague you have parsley in your teeth after after lunch, but we cannot tell him you smell of garlic. Everything related to body auras is a taboo, but everything with smells we have a hard time talking about. And I think the one thing that will allow us to get better with our sense of smell is to share and share verbally, to talk about smells. And this is something that can be very, very joyful. And I think wine tasting and wine drinking is one of those joyful moments where you can do it. And I think I’m not a specialist. And so maybe I say it for myself, but I think we are all the biggest specialists of the perceptions that we have.

Johannes Frasnelli 00:33:41 So if we smell, if we perceive something in a wine, nobody can take that away from us. If we perceive vanilla, we perceive vanilla. And even if all the others say, I don’t perceive vanilla, we are right. This is something that is quite positive about the sensory perception in the context of wine, that we are all the biggest specialists of our own body and our own smell.

Natalie MacLean 00:34:01 Absolutely. Trust yourself. And you don’t always have to rely on so-called experts, wine experts. For sure. It is about your own experience and interpretation. Where can people best find you online and you and your work? Johannes?

Johannes Frasnelli 00:34:14 I mean the lucky position that I have a very unique combination of a first name and last name. So if you type that in, you will pretty fast. Find my lab and information about myself. I am at the University of Quebec in Two Rivers, so if that’s easier to type that into your Google then you can go this way too. But I would be very happy to receive any kind of feedback, and who knows what kind of discussions will come out of this conversation we just had.

Natalie MacLean 00:34:40 Absolutely. Thank you so much for your time. It was absolutely fascinating. Your research is I mean, it’s exciting for wine tasters and beyond. It’s just, wow, the things that are going to come out that are going to be benefiting so many people. So thank you for sharing that with us, Johannes.

Johannes Frasnelli 00:34:57 Thank you very much for having me.

Natalie MacLean 00:34:59 All right. I’ll say cheers for now. Bye bye. Well, there you have it. I hope you enjoyed our chat with Johannes. Here are my takeaways. Number one, how can you train your sense of smell? Johannes explains that Master Sommeliers train their brains sense of smell. Just as a lot of people train physically when they go to the gym. The key is to make it challenging if someone is a newbie. 15 minutes on a bike will be enough to get the training effect, but not for someone who runs marathons, for example. It’s the same for our brains, and what we can train most about smell is it’s connection with language.

Natalie MacLean 00:35:41 It’s important to talk about the smells we detect with each other that really enforces it. It’s not enough to just, you know, passively smell odors as they go by. You actively have to try to identify them. Number two, why does smelling requires so much more focus than our other senses? Smelling is difficult for humans, Johannes observes. We can take in visual scenery very quickly, but with smelling we don’t have those same abilities. When we smell something in our environment, it is much more work for us to identify the particular aromas and we have to concentrate. We just don’t do that a lot. So you need to have the mental spare time to focus on it. And number three, what is nasal olfaction. Johannes says that retro nasal olfaction is not only related to when you swallow wine, it’s also when you have the wine in your mouth. When someone goes swish the wine around their mouths, the molecules heat up and get pushed up into our nasal cavities, which is also part of the retro nasal component.

Natalie MacLean 00:36:50 You can test this just by pinching your nose. You won’t smell because it’s blocked in the front and the air can’t enter. Then as soon as you release your nose, you will have this additional smell dimension. Retro nasal olfaction is really the key player when it comes to detecting smells and flavors. In the show notes, you’ll find the full transcript of my conversation with Johannes, links to his website, the video versions of these conversations on Facebook and YouTube live, and where you can order my book online now, no matter where you live. If you missed episode 195, go back and take a listen. I chat about the differences between aroma and bouquet, as well as California Pinot Noir with winemaker and doctor Gareth Overstreet. I’ll share a short clip with you now to whet your appetite.

Kerith Overstreet 00:37:39 Aromas are what we get from the grave during fermentation in the conversion of sugar to alcohol. The yeast make different compounds and they smell really good. We then as winemakers layer that with aromatic note that comes from things like barrels.

Kerith Overstreet 00:37:58 Oxygen through the barrel helps create the bouquet. Those are additional aromatic notes.

Natalie MacLean 00:38:05 Do you associate secondary aromas with bouquet?

Kerith Overstreet 00:38:07 Yes I.

Natalie MacLean 00:38:08 Do. And then tertiary is on its own for aging.

Kerith Overstreet 00:38:12 Right. You know when you start to get those sherry note that come with wine that’s had a good long life. So aroma comes from the grape and bouquet is everything else.

Natalie MacLean 00:38:26 You won’t want to miss next week when we chat with the legendary Hugh Johnson in a rare and exclusive interview. I am so excited about this. Hugh Johnson is the world’s best known wine writer, having sold more than 20 million books worldwide over a 60 year career that includes The World Atlas of Wine, The Wine Companion and his annual Pocket Wine Book, among others. His talent for making the subject of wine irresistible is unmatched, and he’ll join us from his home in London, England. It is such a fascinating conversation about the history of wine and his deep reflections on what wine means to us as humans. And yes, two of you will win a copy of his award winning memoir, The Life and Wines of Hugh Johnson.

Natalie MacLean 00:39:15 If you liked this episode or learned even one thing from it, please email or tell one friend about the podcast this week, especially someone you know who’d be interested in learning more about how our sense of smell works and how it dramatically impacts our enjoyment of wine. It’s easy to find my podcast. Just tell them to search for Natalie MacLean Wine on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, their favorite podcast app, or they can listen to the show on my website at Natalie MacLean. Com forward slash podcast. Email me if you have a SIP tip question if you’d like to win a copy of the four books I mentioned in the intro, or get a jump on trying to win one of two copies of Hugh Johnson’s memoir, or if you’ve read my book or are listening to it, I’d love to hear your thoughts about this episode. Were you surprised about how our sense of smell differs from our other senses? Not just in the way it works, but also in the way it’s viewed in our culture? Got a story about smelling wine or something unusual? Email me at Nathalie at Natalie MacLean.

Natalie MacLean 00:40:20 Com in the show notes, you’ll find a link to take a free online food and wine pairing class with me, called the five Wine and Food Pairing Mistakes That Can Ruin Your dinner and how to fix them forever. At Natalie MacLean dot com forward slash class. That’s all in the show notes at Natalie MacLean dot com forward slash 312. Thank you for taking the time to join me here. I hope something great is in your glass this week. Perhaps a wine that keeps coming back to you on the retro nasal with waves of pleasure. You don’t want to miss one juicy episode of this podcast, especially the secret full bodied bonus episodes that I don’t announce on social media. So subscribe for free now at Natalie MacLean. Com forward slash subscribe. Meet me here next week. Cheers.

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