Introduction
How do digital corks allow winemakers to participate in the resale of their wines among collectors? What are tasting tokens, and what exciting new experiences do they offer both winemakers and consumers? What new trends and technologies will impact the wines you drink in the future?
In this episode of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, I’m interviewing David Garrett, the co-founder of a global non-fungible token (NFT) wine club, Club dVIN.
You can find the wines we discussed here.
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Giveaway
Three of you are going to win a personally signed copy of David Garrett’s gorgeous book, The Winemakers of Paso Robles. This Californian wine region produces amazing wines.
How to Win
To qualify, all you have to do is email me at [email protected] and tell me that you’d like to win the book. I’ll select the winners randomly from those who participate.
Good luck!
Highlights
- How does NFC technology increase the detailed provenance data available for wine?
- How do digital corks allow winemakers to participate in value creation in the aftermarket?
- What are tasting tokens, and what exciting new opportunities do they provide for connecting winemakers and consumers?
- How does NFT technology make it significantly easier to track down wine counterfeiters?
- What are Proof-of-Stake protocols, and how does that make Club dVIN’s process more environmentally friendly?
- How have NFTs been used to raise millions for charity in collaboration with renowned wine critic Robert Parker and his unique wine collection?
- Why is 2019 Château Cos D’estournel David’s go-to wine?
- Why does David consider wine the ultimate expression of a winemaker’s art?
- How is David’s appreciation of wine rooted in his experiences with winemakers?
- What’s David’s controversial take on wine tasting notes?
- Which wine does David like to pair with his childhood comfort food, Kraft Macaroni and Cheese?
- Why is David excited about Paso Robles as a wine region and a general destination?
- Which bottle of wine would David love to share with President Barack Obama?
Carmelo Anthony Club dVIN NFT Tasting Token
Key Takeaways
- I love the idea that winemakers can participate in the profit from reselling their wines via digital corks. It’s very similar to painters and other artists who should be able to accrue some of the value in secondary markets like auctions.
- Tasting tokens provide some exciting new experiences for winemakers and consumers to connect more deeply.
- I enjoyed David’s discussion of other new trends and technologies that will impact the wines we drink in the future.
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About David Garrett
Since graduating from Michigan State University with a bachelor’s degree in political science, David Garrett has spent more than 25 years in the fields of tech, wine and finance. In 1994, he co-founded IntraACTIVE, a software company that built the original Intranet for the US Navy. After he sold his company in 2004, he co-founded The Vines of Mendoza, developing more than 1,500 acres of vineyard land in Argentina as well as a five -star resort and restaurant. In 2013, he led a group of investors to buy the largest vineyard in Priorat, Spain. Today, he’s the co-founder of Club dVIN, a global non-fungible token (NFT) wine club.
Resources
- Connect with David Garrett & Club dVIN
- The Winemakers Podcast (interviews with Paso Robles winemakers)
- Wines We Tasted
- Diary of a Book Launch: An Insider Peek from Idea to Publication
- My Books:
- Unreserved Wine Talk | Episode 1: Wine Forgery and True Wine Crime with Pete Hellman
- My new class The 5 Wine & Food Pairing Mistakes That Can Ruin Your Dinner And How To Fix Them Forever
Tag Me on Social
Tag me on social media if you enjoyed the episode:
- @nataliemaclean and @natdecants on Facebook
- @nataliemaclean on Twitter
- @nataliemacleanwine on Instagram
- @nataliemaclean on LinkedIn
- Email Me at [email protected]
Thirsty for more?
- Sign up for my free online wine video class where I’ll walk you through The 5 Wine & Food Pairing Mistakes That Can Ruin Your Dinner (and how to fix them forever!)
- You’ll find my books here, including Unquenchable: A Tipsy Quest for the World’s Best Bargain Wines and Red, White and Drunk All Over: A Wine-Soaked Journey from Grape to Glass.
- The new audio edition of Red, White and Drunk All Over: A Wine-Soaked Journey from Grape to Glass is now available on Amazon.ca, Amazon.com and other country-specific Amazon sites; iTunes.ca, iTunes.com and other country-specific iTunes sites; Audible.ca and Audible.com.
Transcript
David Garrett 0:00
Tasting tokens are proof that you tasted that wine. So what we talked to the winemakers about is if somebody collects five tasting tokens, maybe you could provide a winemaker dinner. Or if they collect 10, then you can invite them to the winery for a vertical tasting. The distance between a winemaker and a consumer is 15 years and 15,000 miles. Whenever you’re opening a bottle, it was made by somebody a long time ago in a place far, far away. What we’re doing with this technology is we’re letting the winemaker be in contact with the consumer at the moment of consumption. Not only is it great data for the winemaker, but it’s a really great experience for the consumer.
Natalie MacLean 0:48
Do you have a thirst to learn about wine? Do you love stories about wonderfully obsessive people, hauntingly beautiful places, and amusingly awkward social situations? Oh, that’s the blend here on the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast. I’m your host, Natalie Maclean. And each week, I share with you unfiltered conversations with celebrities in the wine world, as well as confessions from my own tipsy journey as I write my third book on this subject. I’m so glad you’re here. Now pass me that bottle please. And let’s get started. Welcome to Episode 208. How do digital corks allow winemakers to participate in the resale of their wines among collectors? What are tasting tokens? And what exciting new experiences do they offer both winemakers and consumers? And what new trends and technologies will impact the wines you drink in the future? You’ll hear those tips and stories in part two of my chat with David Garrett, who is the co founder of a global non fungible token (NFT) wine club. You don’t need to have listened to Part One from last week first, but I hope you’ll go back if you missed it after you finish this one. Now a quick update on my upcoming memoir Wine Witch on Fire: Rising from the Ashes of Divorce Defamation and Drinking Too Much. Last week, I mentioned that one of the downfalls of dialogue is when it becomes stilted. The other danger is when it’s expository. So have you ever watched a bad detective show and the characters explain the plot when they talk to each other? Something like: Look, John, there have been three robberies this week. And I think it’s likely that notorious thief from the other side of town who is our prime suspect. Yes, Susan, I agree with you. We’re going to have to dig deep to find some real evidence to finally put this guy away. Where do you propose we start? Ah it goes. In other words, they use words not action to tell us what’s happening. That’s exposition, and it’s a killer when it comes to dialogue. Characters should never be used to state the obvious or to summarize what’s happened in the past or what’s going to happen in the future. The best detective shows leave little clues from the beginning based on what the characters do rather than what they say. All right. Here’s a review from Jennifer Hill, a beta reader from Victoria BC. “This book is more than a fast paced and engaging read peppered with wine notes and laugh out loud bon mot. It lays bare shocking revelations about misogyny in the wine world and the cover of false bravery that social media provides. The most of all, it is a courageous and moving story about one woman’s shake up and wake up that reveals universal wisdomsthrough her journey to truly seeing herself, witch and all. I loved it and I highly recommend it as a great read. Five stars. Thank you, Jennifer. I’ve posted a link to a blog post called Diary of a Book Launch in the show notes at Natalie Maclean.com/208. This is where I share more behind the scenes stories about the journey of taking this memoir from idea to publication. If you want a more intimate insider seat beside me on this journey, please let me know you’d like to become a beta reader and get a sneak peek at this manuscript. Email me at [email protected]. Okay, on with the show.
David Garrett 4:33
You know, in the future, one of the things that our system allows for and I can show you. So you can’t really see it on the screen. You see that little sticker, that little black sticker on the bottle? Yes. So that’s an NFC sticker. And what that does is it allows for that bottle to be uniquely identified. And so one of the things that we can do in the future, it’s not going to happen overnight, is every time that bottles moves, it can register with a sensor. Have you heard of, you know, the new Amazon stores? Where you just put everything in the shopping cart and you walk out and it charges your credit card because it see what’s in there? Well we could put sensors in warehouses and logistics companies so that every time that bottle is moved, the information can be updated on the blockchain for that particular bottle. You can see and know for sure that that bottle was in this warehouse for this amount of time. And over time, we can even put climate information, temperature information, like lots and lots of really good data on the blockchain so that you can really look at the exact provenance of that wine. You can see how long it was sitting in customs. You can see which courier was used, how long it was at FedEx, what time of day it left the warehouse, what time of day it arrived at the person’s house. Like there’s lots of information that you can have. And because with a little bit of technology, you can have access to that data. And that access provides really good transparency. So you as the buyer of a collectible or investment grade wine can really look and see all of that provenance information and make decisions for yourself.
Natalie MacLean 6:22
Wow. How long do you think it’ll take before auction houses require this this kind of provenance technology?
David Garrett 6:29
We’re talking to a number of auction houses now. So I think it’s going to come very quickly. You’re seeing the adoption happen very, very quickly. And we’re very excited about that. I think it’s going to be a long time before every bottle has a NFT attached to it. But certainly in the collectible and investment grade space, I think, you know, within five year, it would be hard to imagine new bottles being released from the winery that don’t have some sort of an NFT, that aren’t somehow on the blockchain.
Natalie MacLean 6:59
Well, and do you think there’s any purpose for NFT’s when it comes to however you define budget friendly wines, like I don’t know under $50 or whatever?
David Garrett 7:08
So that’s kind of what we’re doing. So we’ve got the digital corks right that do the deed of ownership, the certificate of authenticity, the chain of custody. There’s another interesting piece in that smart contract that’s called a royalty. So you’ve probably heard that when art NFTs gets sold, there’s a piece of the proceeds that goes back to the original artist. That’s a really interesting and great use, right? Like what a great way to reward artists. Well, for our digital corks, that royalty goes back to the winemaker. So for the first time, the winemaker can participate in the value creation in the aftermarket. So that’s really interesting. And they can set it at 10%, or 5%, or 15%. But so that’s the digital cork.
But where we do things a little bit differently, and pretty interestingly, is when the bottle is going to be opened. So we’re really focused on community and experience. And so with our technology, when you open the bottle what happens is a couple of things happen. First is that the original NFT, the certificate of authenticity, that ledger is updated and says this bottle has been opened. It’s no longer authentic. There’s one last of these bottles out there in the world right. So that’s the first thing that happens. But then we’ve created some new and NFTs that we call tasting tokens. And tasting tokens are like an authentic proof of experience. It’s a deed to ownership, right, just like every other NFT. Instead of a deed of ownership over a piece of art or a physical bottle, it’s a deed of ownership over an experience. Now that might sound crazy, but think about it this way. Pretty soon, your college diploma will be an NFT, right. Because it’ll be very easy for you to share and for you to prove that you went to college, right? You prove that you have that diploma. So this is kind of like that, but on a much smaller scale, right. It’s proof that you tasted that wine, which is kind of interesting because you can use it to post to Instagram and say, Hey, I tasted this wine, you know. Look at my wonderful life. It’s the web three version of taking a picture of the label and posting it. But where it’s really interesting is it allows you to visualize and share the great wines that you’ve tasted. You get all of the great data, you know. The image is really cool. We work with the wineries to create a little video that tells a story. But where it gets really interesting is now the winemaker can see that you are collecting these authentic NFTs that are proof of experience. So what we talked to the winemakers about is okay so if somebody collects five tasting token NFTs right. So they’ve tasted the Alterego five times, maybe you could provide a winemaker dinner. Or if they collect 10, then you can invite them to the winery for a vertical tasting. So it provides the winemaker. Like we always say all the time, the distance between a winemaker and a consumer is 15 years and 15,000 miles, right. Whenever you’re opening a bottle, it was made by somebody a long time ago in a place far, far away. What we’re doing with this technology is we’re letting them be like letting the winemaker be in contact with the consumer at the moment of consumption, which is kind of a new and interesting thing. So not only is it great data for the winemaker, but it’s a really great experience for the consumer.
Natalie MacLean 10:47
This inter-mediation to use a buzzword like to get rid of all the middle layers and tiers and sales and so on.
David Garrett 10:55
And here’s the interesting piece of it from our perspective, which is this works really well with direct to consumer, with wineries that sell direct to consumer. But it doesn’t have to be. You know we work with a lot of winemakers in Europe that love their existing supply chain right. They want to sell on the Place de Bordeaux and have those wines go through the same supply chain that they’ve gone through forever. For us that doesn’t matter right. Because at the end of the day, you know that wine can go to a negociante and then to importer and distributor in the States and then a retailer and then a consumer. But then when they open the wine, all of a sudden they’re reconnected back with the winemaker. And for us, that’s what’s really exciting. And again, really great data and a great way for winemakers to really connect with their most enthusiastic consumers.
Unknown Speaker 11:45
Yeah, I can just see the the plethora of like tasting token rewards, and allowing you know you can have your 50 token club who can meet other people who’ve tasted 50 wines from that winery or whatever. Like that. Just lots of possibilities there in terms of you know community building. Wow. And so going back to the NFT, so someone could buy a wine that has an NFT issued by the winery or whatever created by you issued by the winery, and then open the wine, drink it, not create a tasting token, refill it with fake wine, and then sell it privately right?
David Garrett 12:24
Sure, of course, just like they could do today. But the more adoption we have on the platform, the more people will know that know to be able to expect a digital con, or some sort of NFT attached with a bottle. So a buyer. Like at some point even today if you were to buy a Breitling watch, you should know that that watch comes with an NFT. And if you’re not getting the NF T with a watch, you’re gonna pay a lot less for it because you’re gonna assume it was stolen. And the same thing will be true with wines right. Over time as it becomes normal. You know, if you’re buying a wine and for some reason, the person who’s selling it to you doesn’t want to sell the NFT or doesn’t want to transfer the NFT to you, then you’re gonna assume that it was either stolen or counterfeit. And if they do transfer the NFT and the wine ends up being fruit juice, then you know the FBI has a very short list of people to go and talk to. So oit ends up really creating you know not 100% trustless system. But you know with physical products, it’s hard to get trustless especially when the biggest counterfeiter in the last 10 years was the winemaker himself from Bordeaux, right. You’re never going to be able to solve that problem. But if you have full transparency and you have the chain of custody, then like I said there’s a shortlist of people to go and see about any problems with provenance or if the bottle ends up being counterfeit.
Natalie MacLean 13:56
Fascinating. Now, I’ve heard again this may be two different processes processes. But is it as energy intensive to create NFTs as it is Bitcoin or blockchain? I mean you hear about these massive servers and computer firms and it’s very energy intensive. Is that a concern at all for you? Or is this process different?
David Garrett 14:17
It is an enormous concern for us. And so Bitcoin it’s true. Bitcoin is on so they’re on a platform. The blockchain that serves Bitcoin is called a proof of work system. And a proof of work system means that in order for the computers to agree for all the computers to have, like I said that consensus all the computers have to agree. In order for them to do that they have to do a bunch of work and prove that they did this work. Well, that’s great and that is a Bitcoin is. The platform that Bitcoin is on is one of the most secure ever invented. And it’s because of that system, so it’s very energy intensive. That’s true. but it also is extremely secure. We are on a different platform. Like, we don’t have a trillion dollars for people to try to steal. And because it’s attached to a physical product, we can be you know 99.9% secure instead of 100%. And we can spend a lot less energy on it. So the blockchain that we’re on is called Polygon. And instead of being proof of work, it’s called Proof of Stake. And Proof of Stake means that instead of a bunch of computers saying that they all have to do a bunch of work in order to be able to agree that the ledger is being updated, Rhese computers just have to say, Okay, I’m an investor in the network and I have enough investment in the network that I can prove that I’m probably not going to be trying to, you know, rip off the network. And so what happens is you’ve got 10,000, computers or 100,000 computers that all have an investment in the network, so you can be 99.9% sure that that security level is there. And so that’s the system that we’re on. The difference is it costs about, you know, $80 to do a transaction on Bitcoin right now. And if you sign up for a new account on our platform, you automatically get a dollars worth of funds. And our assumption is that that dollar will allow you to do transactions for about 100 years. So each transaction is about a 10th of a cent. So that’s the difference between the amount of energy that the platform that we’re on uses vs the platform that Bitcoin uses. So it uses some you can’t say it doesn’t use any, but it’s about the same as you know maybe your phone. Or you’re using a lot more energy on your phone and your computer than you would ever use on your virtual wine cellar. So we pay a lot of attention to the environmental impact. And the network that we’re on is actually just earlier this year became carbon neutral, and a lot of the people on the network are pushing it to become carbon negative.
Natalie MacLean 17:07
Oh that’s great. Okay. And you’re working with Robert Parker, the famous US critic who has retired. You’re working with him and his cellar. Tell us about that project.
David Garrett 17:17
We did a really interesting project with him and St. Jude’s. So I’m sure you can guess Robert Parker has an amazing cellar that he’s been collecting over 50 years. And we talked with him and actually worked with an organization called Legacy Seller that’s run by one of our founding members Garth Hodgdon. And Legacy Cellarr is working with Robert Parker and his cellar to basically donate a huge portion of his cellar if all of it to charity.
Natalie MacLean 17:46
How many bottles does he have, by the way, in his cellar?
David Garrett 17:49
Well, you know, the only way that we would know that is by measuring and guessing because he doesn’t have an inventory. So we’re still working with that. But we think it’s somewhere around 35,000 bottles. But the first project that we did was earlier this year with St. Jude’s. We worked with Robert and you know one of his oldest friends Manfred Frankel and there was a 27 litre bottle of Sine Qua Non Eleven confessions 2003 I think.
Natalie MacLean 18:23
Good Lord. Is that a Nebuchadnezzar? That’s huge, isn’t it?
David Garrett 18:30
It was called the Goliath dinner and he donated it to St. Jude’s and St. Jude’s raised $3 million.
Natalie MacLean 18:36
And what is St. Jude’s?
David Garrett 18:38
Oh, St. Jude’s Children’s Hospital. Paediatric cancer. It’s probably the largest paediatric cancer hospital in the world. It’s a really, really great cause. So that was the first event we did. And we created tasting tokens for everybody that came to that dinner. So if you went, you could get a tasting token that was again a certified proof of experience that you tasted this unbelievable bottle. It was a unique bottle. It was the only Goliath that was made that year. And again, it raised about $3 million for charity. It was a really fun event. And we’re looking at doing more events like that in the future as the Parker collection starts to make its way to other charities. And it’s an ongoing conversation, but it’s something that was very exciting for us. And we’re super excited to work with them far into the future. I think that it’s going to be many years before that entire collection is donated to charity.
Natalie MacLean 19:39
And I would think that attaching NFTs and sort of inventorying a cellar is going to be part of the process of legacy planning for those who own big invaluable cellars. Like they’ll want to do that so that you know if they’re going to bequeath it to charity or even to their heirs that it’s quantified, authenticated you know. And part of as I say estate planning or writing your will, you’ll be trying to NFT your cellar as well.
David Garrett 20:04
Yeah, that’s exactly right. That’s what we’re working on.
Natalie MacLean 20:07
Cool. Great, great initiative. All right. All this talk about wines making me thirsty. So let’s taste. You have a couple of wines there. Maybe tell us about the first one, David.
David Garrett 20:19
I do. I haven’t opened the Corton-Charlamagne yet. I’m saving this for a little bit later. I meant to open it and then I don’t have ice in my office. It’s too hot. So I’m gonna wait. I’m gonna open it up a little bit later. What I’m drinking right now is Cos d’Estournel from Medoc 2019. That’s a really, really, really nice wine. It’s one of my favourite.
Natalie MacLean 20:39
Is it Cos d’Estournal like the famous one or? d’Estournal. I don’t recognise the label. I know Cos d’Estournal but that looks different. Or maybe they change the label.
David Garrett 20:49
Well, this is one of their labels. For me, it’s a really interesting and fun wine. It’s my go to.
Natalie MacLean 20:57
Yeah. Is it like a flanker brand?
David Garrett 20:59
Yeah, it’s a flanker brand. It’s a 2019. And to me, it drinks like a 2012 or a 2010. So it’s a really, really nice vintage. And it’s just one of my favourites. And like I said, we attached an NFT to it. So this is the NFT sticker and I’ll send you a little bit later if you want to put it in the show notes the tasting token and digital cork that we created for this.
Natalie MacLean 21:27
I’d love to see those. Yeah. And how much does that wine go for? On average? The one you’re tasting?
David Garrett 21:32
Maybe $45 US, I think. But I don’t think it’s even available in the US. So I’m here in Barcelona. And I probably should have mentioned that in the beginning. I’m based in Spain. And you know I don’t know. I get it directly for the winemaker. I’m sorry. I don’t even know what the retail value is. It’s maybe like a $45 wine.
Natalie MacLean 21:55
No, we just like to talk about different wines. So that’s fine. I have I thought I’d open one in spirit with you. Township 7, a Pinot Gris from the Okanagan Valley, which is nice and sprightly. Yeah. Doesn’t have an NFT yet though.
David Garrett 22:10
Well, let’s fix that.
Natalie MacLean 22:14
Exactly Oh, it’s so bright and lemony. It’s making my mouth water. So good breakfast wine. So do you have any tips when you’re tasting?
David Garrett 22:22
Oh, tips when I’m tasting? You know, I’ll tell you. The truth is – and I tell this to everybody – if I had a great palate, I’d be a winemaker and no one would ever hear from me again. I’d be in my little vineyard somewhere making wine and that’s what I would love to do. And that’s what most of my heroes do, right. They have their heads down and they’re making wine. Unfortunately, I don’t have a great palate. And what that means is that I live in stories. And I don’t know if you saw this in my background, but one of the things that I do is you know not only this book The Winemakers of Paso Robles. We went to Paso and did a deep dive with 50 different winemakers in Paso Robles. We even launched a podcast series. If you go and look for The Winemakers of Paso Robles, we did deep dive interviews with those winemakers to really learn their stories. I’m working with Carmelo Anthony, the basketball player in the States, on a television show to profile unknown winemakers from around the world and have been working on that for a couple years. Yeah, we’re working actually with some really, really interesting winemaker I can’t tell you about it but really, really interesting winemakers and I love those stories. The stories of to be a winemaker. You have to be a genius scientist in multiple disciplines right. Like you need to really be one with the elements. But on the other hand, you also have to be a genius artist, you know. The project in the Priorat, it’s incredibly hilly, very steep hills, if you’ve ever been to Priorat you know we don’t have two lots that have the same aspect of the sun. I mean, it’s crazy. And so we have a drone that flies around and takes temperature and humidity readings and even has a laser that will tell you the sugar contents of a grape, right. And it creates these wonderful maps. And it’s beautiful and it flies the same route twice a day. And we have all of this great information on humidity and weather and everything that you could ever want to know from a data perspective about that plant, each individual plant. And yet every single vintage starts with a winemaker standing in the middle of a vineyard at three o’clock in the morning tasting a grape in their mouth. And to me that’s magic, right. Like that to me is you can have all the data in the world but it’s really the art. It’s the expression of art of the winemaker that is really what you’re drinking in your glass.
Natalie MacLean 25:09
Well, yeah, his palate or her palate tasting that grape. Yeah, I get it like because there’s, we hear more and more about technology, digital gardening, you know, we’ll have these high tech sensors that will treat each plant separately as you’re doing. But it goes back to the human palate, the brushstroke, you know the leap in the air of the ballet dancer, the taste of the grape and then translating it into something that just can’t be replaced digitally. Yeah, I get that.
David Garrett 25:33
When I drink this wine, my memory is at the winery with the winemaker cooking vegetables on the grill from a vegetable garden that’s right next to the vineyard. Like this is the 2019 I think. Probably the first vintage is one that I tasted was the 2016 or 2015. But I drink it every year. And this is like just one of my favourites. And I don’t think in all of the times that I’ve been to the winery, they’ve never served a protein with this wine. It’s just always vegetables from the vineyard. And a Medoc with nothing but grilled vegetables, that sounds crazy right. But that’s the story in my head. And that’s the story of the winemaker. And that’s the story of that particular vineyard and the smells and the experience that I had. And that’s what I remember more than anything else. And so that’s why I opened this one all the time. It’s much more about that than it is about, you know, the particular notes that I get from the glass. So I have a different way of appreciating wine. And I know that I’m incredibly fortunate that I get to meet winemakers and I get to have those experiences in the vineyards. But that’s where a lot of my appreciation comes from.
Natalie MacLean 26:40
Yeah, well, I resonate with that. People and stories that’s what it’s all about in the wine business. I mean it’s just the technical tasting will only take you so far. But do you really want something to stick with you in in your memory and in others’ memories. To remember something you really have to tell a great story and then go right back there through the power of smell and emotion and wrap it all up in a nice package. Well, time is flying all right. So let me do a few lightning round questions with you, Dave. Yeah, what time is it?
David Garrett 27:13
It’s 5:30pm, but that’s okay.
Natalie MacLean 27:15
There you go. Barcelona. Okay, cool. Is there something that you believe about wine which you think some people would strongly disagree with you on it?
David Garrett 27:24
Well yeah, I mean, again, for me it’s the power of story. A lot of people will strongly disagree. But you know, I’ve spent a lot of time in the Priorat. And if you’ve ever heard the story of the Priorat, you’ll know that those first I think it was eight winemakers in the Priorat. When they made their first wines 30 years ago, it was all the same wine. All the same wine put in eight different bottles with eight different labels and eight different winemakers telling eight different stories. And they got a lot of different scores and they got a lot of different tasting notes. So for me, I don’t know if people disagree, but I would say that for me always story trumps taste. Story trumps the tasting notes. I would rather hear a winemaker telling the story of making that wine than read tasting notes from any critic. Story. Tell Jane Anson I said that. She’s a good friend of mine. And she’s fantastic. But you know it’s the story of the winemaker for me always.
Natalie MacLean 28:20
Absolutely. So much more interesting. Tell us about maybe a favourite childhood food you had and what you might pair it with today in terms of a wine.
David Garrett 28:30
Oh, that’s a really good question. So favourite childhood food. You know I’m gonna get a lot of mail from this one. But for me, I grew up in Michigan. I grew up in the Midwest and I’ve lived outside the US for more than 20 years. And my go to comfort food is Kraft macaroni and cheese. I don’t know why, but it’s totally ultimate comfort food for me. And I gotta tell you like there’s nothing wrong with a really nice Nebbiolo and Kraft macaroni and cheese.
Natalie MacLean 29:02
Well, I’m surprised at the Nebbiolo. I guess if you shave a few truffles on this, KD.
David Garrett 29:05
There we go. There we go.
Natalie MacLean 29:09
A bridging ingredient maybe? No, that’s great. In love that unusual pairing. And I was going to ask you about your favourite wine book but hold up your wine book again The Wine Masters of Paso Robles because. Winemakers sorry. It’s a beautiful book. The glass stained and beautiful. Big colourful book. Yeah, lots of great pictures.
David Garrett 29:34
Basically, deep dive profiles on 50 different winemakers in Paso Robles. The 50 winemakers that kind of created Paso Robles and really it was so much fun to do. I got to meet so many unbelievably interesting people that risked everything. Like all of them took an enormous risk on a tiny little region that nobody knew they’d be able to make world class wines. But they did. And I’m so gratified by how well Paso Robles has done in the kind of international standings over the last couple of years. And it’s really a credit to these unbelievably hardworking and incredibly just warm hearted, wonderful people that really risked everything in a place that was far away. And they saw some promise and made enormous investments and took enormous risks. And I’m very, very gratified that it has paid off for a lot of them.
Natalie MacLean 30:37
And for those who may not be familiar with where the region is. It’s so. Napa and Sonoma kind of north of San Francisco and then you keep driving down. Whereabouts, how far do you have to go to get to Paso Robles?
David Garrett 30:49
it’s about almost exactly halfway between San Francisco and Los Angeles. So it’s maybe due east of San Luis Obispo, which is kind of the middle of it’s called the middle coast or the central coast. But and it’s very close to the to the water actually. Interestingly, it’s maybe a 20 minute drive to the ocean. But because of the mountain range there, it really has its own, the climate is perfect. The little microclimate there is perfect. I remember being there while we were putting the book together and it would be 105 degrees and incredibly hot during the day. We drive 15 minutes west and the temperature would go down to 75 and we’d be at the ocean. So it’s a really, really interesting climate. And it’s a fantastic place. I would encourage everybody to go not just to try the wines from there, but to go visit. Because the people are great. The tasting rooms are fantastic. And there’s a lot of wines that you would never ever find in a wine shop anywhere that are spectacular.
Natalie MacLean 31:58
Wow, whet our thirst here. All right, so a couple more for you before we wrap up here, Dave. If you could share a bottle of wine with anyone living or dead, who would that be? And what bottle of wine would you crack open?
David Garrett 32:11
You know, I’m gonna say Barack Obama. Okay, because it would be a really, really interesting conversation. And I’m gonna say like a Tondonia Reserva 2007, maybe. I think that would probably be the one that I would open. Yeah.
Natalie MacLean 32:28
What would you ask Barak or President Obama?
David Garrett 32:31
President Obama. I don’t know, a lot of questions. I don’t know about the questions. What I’d really love to do is listen. More than asking questions I’d love to. You know, I was a big fan during his presidency. And you know obviously I’ve missed him a lot since, but like hearing his perspective on the world right now I think it’d be atomic for me.
Natalie MacLean 32:54
Yeah, what’s happened since. Yeah, that’d be great to see what his thoughts are. Well, Dave, this has been wonderful. Is there anything that we haven’t touched on that you’d like to mention before we wrap up?
David Garrett 33:04
Nothing I can think of. But I really appreciate your questions. And I think that you were really great at kind of getting to the heart of what we’re trying to do at dVIN. And more importantly, kind of explaining it in a way that people understand. So I think that this is going to be really informative for people.
Natalie MacLean 33:23
I’m glad. I had to understand it myself. So I thought, well, we may as well just go really basic here and try to figure out what this is. But I find it fascinating because I come from the high tech world as well, previously before wine. So I love that intersection and what goes on. All right, so how can we find you and Club dVIN online?
David Garrett 33:43
So we’re Club dVIN everywhere. I say Club dVIN so the original idea as we were naming the company was like democratized, decentralized, disintermediated. Why, right, so dVIN. So we’re Club dVIN on Instagram or Twitter or ClubdVIN.com. Easy to find. And we’re always looking for people that are interested in knowing more. Whether you’re a winemaker that wants to attach digital corks to your bottles or you’re a consumer that’s really interested in collecting some tasting tokens, we’d love to talk to you.
Natalie MacLean 34:19
Awesome. Well, that’s great. Well, Dave, thank you so much. Fascinating. I wish you the best of luck with this new venture. I’m sure it will be a success. It just seems like the wine market needs it so much both the consumers and the makers so I can imagine you will be very successful with this.
David Garrett 34:37
Well thank you very much. I hope so.
Natalie MacLean 34:39
Alright. okay, then. Bye for now, Dave. We’ll stay in touch. Thank you. Bye bye. Well, there you have it. I hope you enjoyed my chat with David. Here my takeaways. Number one, I love the idea that winemakers can participate in the profit from reselling their wines via digital corks. It’s very similar to painters and other artists, who I think should be able to accrue some portion of the value in secondary markets like auctions. Two, tasting tokens provide some exciting new experiences for winemakers and consumers to connect more deeply. And three, I enjoy David’s discussion of other new trends and technologies that will impact the wines we drink in the future. In the show notes, you’ll find my email contact, a full transcript of my conversation with David, links to his website, and where you can find the live stream video version of these conversations on Facebook and YouTube Live every Wednesday at 7pm. You’ll also find a link to my free Ultimate Guide to Wine and Food Pairing. That’s all in the show notes at NatalieMaclean.com/208. Email me if you have a sip question or want to be a beta reader of my new memoir at [email protected]. You won’t want to miss next week when I chat with Karen MacNeil, author of The Wine Bible, the single best selling wine book in North America with more than a million copies sold. In the meantime, if you missed episode one, go back and take a listen. I talk about the shadow world of wine forgery in Vino Duplicitas by Pete Hellman. I’ll share a short clip with you now to whet your appetite.
Pete Hellman 36:28
There was a book in 1960, came out in 1960, I think by maybe an anthropologist named David Moore was called The Big Con. And he followed around master swindlers, con men who would strike up conversations with strangers and before long they had the strangest money. David Moore says the one thing that he learned from all these master con men was they’re very proud. They do not take anyone’s money. You thrust it into their hands. And that’s what Madoff did you know people begged him to take their money and invest it and people basically begged Rudy for these mythic vintages that nobody else could supply. You want an 1867 Chateau Lafite or Latour. He could get it for you. He had it and he had a backstory as to where he could get these wines, which was plausible, but in the end he was just a real condiment, and he lied the way you and I hopefully tell the truth.
Natalie MacLean 37:30
If you liked this episode, please email or tell one friend about it this week, especially someone you know who’d be interested in the wines, tips, and stories we shared. Thank you for taking the time to join me here. I hope something great is in your glass this week. Perhaps one that’s accompanied by a unique experience, whether via a tasting token or not. You don’t want to miss one juicy episode of this podcast, especially the secret full body bonus episodes that I don’t announce on social media. So subscribe for free now at NatalieMaclean.com/subscribe. Meet me here next week. Cheers.
