Introduction
Which wineries are leading the way with vegan wines? How are some restaurants expanding into innovative vegan or vegetarian menus? What makes Riesling so versatile, especially with vegan dishes?
In this episode of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, I’m chatting with Jennifer Huether and Priya Rao, authors of The Social Herbivore: Perfect Pairings For Plant-Based Cuisine.
You can find the wines we discussed here.
Giveaway
One of you is going to win a copy of Priya Rao & Jennifer Huether’s terrific book, The Social Herbivore: Perfect Pairings For Plant-Based Cuisine – the first book ever on plant-based food and wine matching.
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Highlights
- What surprised Jen about Riesling’s versatility?
- What is Priya’s favourite unexpected and daring pairing?
- Which recent advancements in the world of plant-based foods would Priya and Jen include in an updated edition of the Social Herbivore?
- How are some restaurants expanding into innovative vegan or vegetarian offerings?
- Which wineries are leading the way in producing vegan wines?
- What goes into vegan charcuterie and cheese?
- What is carbonic maceration, and how does it impact the taste and aroma of a wine?
- What were Priya and Jen’s favourite vegan food and wine pairings?
- How do the differences between animal and plant proteins and fats affect wine pairings?
- How can you create a fun tasting experience to figure out the best wine pairings for spicy foods?
- What can you do to extend the shelf life of an opened bottle of wine?
Key Takeaways
- Which wineries are leading the way with vegan wines? Karlo Estates Winery in Prince Edward County, Ontario, and Querciabella Winery in Tuscany are just two of many wineries at the forefront of vegan wines.
- How are some restaurants expanding into innovative vegan or vegetarian menus? Restaurants like 11 Madison in New York are transitioning to entirely vegan or vegetarian menus without giving up choice and flavour, while many other restaurants are offering more than just one vegan option.
- What makes Riesling so versatile, especially with vegan dishes? It has an incredible range of styles from super dry to super sweet, has a lovely balancing acidity and no heavy tannin, oak or alcohol so it can go with so many kinds of cuisines.
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About Priya Rao
A foodie and wine lover, Priya switched to a vegetarian diet in 1995 and then to a vegan one in 2011. An entertainer since childhood, she’s had a lot of time to think about how to translate her love of hosting and cooking for people from meat and potatoes to vino and veggies.
Priya had previously hosted vegan food and wine events in Toronto as part of the duo A Vine Romance, appearing on Breakfast Television as a guest wine expert, on 640AM and Rogers Daytime, and writing articles for Prince Edward County’s Grapevine Magazine, Restaurants Canada and NatalieMaclean.com. She also created and co-hosted the tv show, THE DRINK, for Bell FIBE TV1. She is currently a contributor for Vineroutes.com on all things vegan food & wine.
Priya has shared the joys of vegan food and wine at festivals such as Plant-Based Expo in NYC, Montreal Vegan Festival and the Puerto Rico Vegan Festival. She has hosted dinners at private clubs and golf clubs and has been MC for vegan events around the city. These days, Priya is most often found with a glass of wine in hand, entertaining guests at her vegan vacation home, Terra, in Ontario.
About Jennifer Huether
Jennifer’s love affair and studies in wine started in her early twenties with taking an interest course at George Brown College. From there, she immediately leapt into the Sommelier Certification from ISG graduating top of class, then Diploma of Wine from WSET, followed by the Advanced Sommelier passing in 2005 and finally the Master Sommelier Exams – becoming Canada’s first female Master Sommelier in 2011 graduating in Dallas Texas. Jennifer is one of thirty women Master Sommeliers in the world.
Her restaurant industry is vast. Starting off in Toronto restaurants is where she found wine, Jennifer has also worked for Canadian-owned Cliff Lede Vineyards based in Napa Valley, and for 7 years ran one of Canada’s top wine programs at MLSE in Toronto, spanning over 6 restaurants and overseeing a multi-million dollar beverage program, while mentoring the properties of 11 Sommeliers. Jennifer most recently was employed with California-based Jackson Family Wines, representing their brands throughout Canada. Jennifer is co-founder of @socialherbivore together with Priya Rao and published the first book ever on plant-based food & wine matching.
After winning the Ontario Sommelier Competition in 2006, Jennifer decided to invest her energy heavily in the execution of the competitions from 2008 to 2019. Jennifer, together with Alex Evans, made it their mission to hold the Ontario & Canadian ASI Competitions to the highest level of quality, integrity and standards, therefore giving the best possible experience to the Candidates. She sat for several years on the board of directors of CAPS Ontario and focused her energy into building competitions and the content for them. She is also a continually active teacher with the Court of Masters, and mentors several Advanced and Master Sommelier Candidates throughout Canada, and teaches with WSET. Jennifer has sat on the Board of Directors for Femmes du Vin as the Education Chair executing seminars to enhance the lives of all women in wine and raise money for women in wine and mentors at the non-profit VinEquity.
Jennifer’s latest adventure is with Southern Glazers Wine & Spirits in Las Vegas, where she is very much enjoying the food scene and the winter weather.
Resources
- Connect with Jennifer Huether & Priya Rao
- Karlo Estates Winery, Ontario
- Querciabella Winery, Tuscany
- Wines We Tasted:
- Unreserved Wine Talk | Episode 275: What Are Vegan Wines & Are They Better for You with Jennifer Huether and Priya Rao
- Diary of a Book Launch: An Insider Peek from Idea to Publication
- Wine Witch on Fire Free Companion Guide for Book Clubs
- My Books:
- Unreserved Wine Talk | Episode 17: Organic and Biodynamic Wine with Thomas Bachelder
- My new class The 5 Wine & Food Pairing Mistakes That Can Ruin Your Dinner And How To Fix Them Forever
Tag Me on Social
Tag me on social media if you enjoyed the episode:
- @nataliemaclean and @natdecants on Facebook
- @nataliemaclean on Twitter
- @nataliemacleanwine on Instagram
- @nataliemaclean on LinkedIn
- Email Me at [email protected]
Thirsty for more?
- Sign up for my free online wine video class where I’ll walk you through The 5 Wine & Food Pairing Mistakes That Can Ruin Your Dinner (and how to fix them forever!)
- You’ll find my books here, including Unquenchable: A Tipsy Quest for the World’s Best Bargain Wines and Red, White and Drunk All Over: A Wine-Soaked Journey from Grape to Glass.
- The new audio edition of Red, White and Drunk All Over: A Wine-Soaked Journey from Grape to Glass is now available on Amazon.ca, Amazon.com and other country-specific Amazon sites; iTunes.ca, iTunes.com and other country-specific iTunes sites; Audible.ca and Audible.com.
Transcript
Jennifer Huether (00:00:00) – There was a moment that we had Riesling and Priya had paired it with cashew and coconut Brie. And it was that moment that we look for as sommeliers where the food tastes better, the wine tastes better. It’s just kind of that explosion. And that was, wow, okay, I got to have Riesling at all times in my fridge. Oh that’s great. How about for you, Priya?
Priya Rao (00:00:25) – Well, I would agree with Jen in terms of Riesling. Just being such a versatile wine. From super, super dry to super, super sweet and can go with so many kinds of cuisines.
Natalie MacLean (00:00:41) – Do you have a thirst to learn about wine? Do you love stories about wonderfully obsessive people, hauntingly beautiful places, and amusingly awkward social situations? Well, that’s the blend here on the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast. I’m your host, Natalie MacLean, and each week I share with you unfiltered conversations with celebrities in the wine world, as well as confessions from my own tipsy journey as I write my third book on this subject. I’m so glad you’re here. Now pass me that bottle, please, and let’s get started.
Welcome to episode 276. Which wineries are leading the way with vegan wines? How are some restaurants expanding into innovative vegan and vegetarian menus? And what makes Riesling so versatile, especially with vegan dishes? In today’s episode, you’ll hear the stories and tips that answer those questions. In part two of our chat with Priya Rao and Jennifer Huether, who together have published the first ever plant based food and wine matching book. You don’t need to have listened to Part One from last week first, but I hope you’ll go back to it if you missed it after you finish this one.
One of you is going to win a copy of their beautiful book with its recipes, full colour photographs of mouthwatering dishes, and terrific wine pairings. It’s called The Social Herbivore. All you have to do is email me at Natalie@natalie maclean.com and let me know that you’d like to win a copy. I’ll choose one person randomly from those who contact me.
If you haven’t won a book yet, now’s your chance. Keep listening, as my goal is to offer lots more books and other prizes with every episode. Speaking of books, have you read Wine Witch on Fire: Rising from the Ashes of Divorce, Defamation and Drinking Too Much? If yes, then have you bought a copy for a friend? If you’d like to support this podcast that I do for you on a volunteer basis to ensure it continues, please order it from any online book retailer no matter where you live. It usually arrives in a day or two. And of course the e-book is instant and it’s a fast read. Every little bit helps spread the message in this book of hope, justice, and resilience. You can send a copy directly to a friend or family member and make their day when a gift arrives in the mail, rather than another bill. I’ll put a link in the show notes to all retailers worldwide at nataliemaclane.com/276. If you’ve read the book or are reading it, I’d love to hear from you at natalie@ nataliemaclean.com. Okay, on with the show.
Natalie MacLean (00:03:29) – What surprised you, back to Priya maybe, when you were doing the research for this book? What was the most surprising insight that you gained.
Jennifer Huether (00:03:44) – With wine or with people responding to the book?
Natalie MacLean (00:03:47) – With the research before the book came out. Was there something that surprised the two of you that you thought, well, and then, you know, you included that insight in the book?
Jennifer Huether (00:03:56) – I think for me, it was Riesling. And we do a great job with Riesling obviously in Ontario. It is definitely a cool climate grape and it excels in cool climates Germany, northern France and Alsace, for example, and in Ontario. And I have to admit, it’s not my personal go to grape. I’m definitely a Chardonnay drinker. I like those bigger, richer, heavier whites, generally speaking, drinking wines at home. And Riesling, I remember there was a moment that we had Riesling. And Priya had paired it with, I think, was it cashew and coconut Brie? I can’t remember exactly. And it was Brie, and it was that a-ha moment that we look for, you know, as sommeliers where the food tastes better, the wine tastes better. It’s just kind of that explosion. And that was, wow, okay, I got to have Riesling at all times in my fridge.
Natalie MacLean (00:04:55) – Oh that’s great. How about for you, Priya? Anything surprising?
Priya Rao (00:04:59) – Well, I would agree with Jen in terms of Riesling just being such a versatile wine from super, super dry to super, super sweet and can go with so many kinds of cuisines. But I would say my favourite – I think Jen sometimes gets like, oh, she’s gonna say that one again – but I would say Brachetto d’Acqui with like a strawberry shortcake or any kind of berries is just such a perfect summer pairing. The wine just has so much of those berries, and it feels so festive because of the sparkle in it that I would say that’s one of my favourite kinds of pairings.
Natalie MacLean (00:05:34) – Tell us a little bit more about that wine for those who are not familiar with it.
Priya Rao (00:05:38) – Jen, I’ll let you talk about the wine. It’s a red wine. It’s a slightly sweet, but I’ll let Jen talk more about the origins of it.
Jennifer Huether (00:05:44) – Sure, yeah. So it’s from northern Italy. It’s a very local type of wine. But as Priya said, you pull the cork and it is frizzante. So it is slightly sparkling. It’s got this red, pink colour which is very unexpected for a wine that has bubbles. And then you get it on your palate and it’s sort of off dry, if you will. But again, because we’re in northern Italy, it’s super fresh and you’ve got that acidity. So you’ve got these beautiful berry flavours, you’ve got this kind of off dry quality, these bubbles and then the sweetness. So it’s very versatile with desserts. And as Priya said, with things that have berries in them, you can even get away with a little bit of chocolate. It’s just an unexpected daring pairing, if you will, which is pretty fun to pull out.
Natalie MacLean (00:06:34) – Oh that’s awesome. And have either of you discovered something since the book was published that you would include in an updated edition?
Priya Rao (00:06:42) – Yeah, I would say on the food side, like I said, the number of innovations happening in plant based food is just astounding. So now there’s lab grown meat, for example, which was in its very, very early stages. And for people who don’t know really what that means, it just means growing meat from cells, cell cultures, as opposed to taking them from animals themselves. So that I would say that, you know, I might mention that in some of the recipes, for example, shepherd’s pie. I give alternatives of, you can use some of the vegan faux beef that you can get ground beef, or you can use mushrooms or lentils. So I give a lot of different options in the book to sort of vegan pies. Some favourites, you know, that people have grown up with. But now I might have said maybe you could look for some of these alternatives, but also things like TVP, which is called textured vegetable protein. I have a few options here. I didn’t really mention that too much in the book, but that is exactly what it sounds like. Textured vegetable protein, oftentimes made from soy but pure soy.
And let’s get all the soy based, you know, fallacies out of the way. It does not cause breast cancer. A lot of those issues that people have with soy came from one study that was way back when, decades ago, that have been debunked many times. But the beauty of these options, and if you go to Chinese Buddhist restaurants, you’ll often find faux duck or faux meats and they taste so similar in terms of texture. And that’s now something you can replicate easily at home. So I have a few different options here. I don’t know if you can see them all, but you can find the small beads that can replicate ground beef, but you can also use soy chunks, which are great as sort of as a pull it out here. Yeah.
Natalie MacLean (00:08:30) – You can hold it up to the camera. And then for those who are listening to the podcast, we’ll put pictures and links in the show notes.
Priya Rao (00:08:38) – They look like this.
Natalie MacLean (00:08:40) – Oh yeah. Okay. Maybe describe that a little bit.
Priya Rao (00:08:43) – Yeah. So basically it’s boiled soybeans that have then been dehydrated. And then you buy them dehydrated. So they last forever. But you’ll rehydrate them in some warm water and then they just have the texture of chicken. They have that fibrous texture and so it satisfies sort of the craving you have of wanting that chewiness on the palate. Because sometimes that’s all it is. Sometimes what you miss from eating meat is the textures because you often don’t have those textures in vegan foods. And so there are different options for those. You can find some that will replicate beef in terms of like beef strips. So I would say that that’s something I would love to include now.
Natalie MacLean (00:09:24) – That’s great. Awesome. And Jen, is there anything that you would add to an updated edition of the book?
Jennifer Huether (00:09:30) – There’s quite a bit of information there as far as how to pare wine. And as Priya had said I was very conscious of making sure that I was really trying to represent many different countries and great varieties. So I checked that off the box. Perhaps, maybe we would include a list of outstanding vegan restaurants around the world, since this is become also such a big trend. And maybe touch on that. Maybe talk about what dishes, maybe that look really great and maybe how we would pair them. That could be really fun. Maybe that’s another book, who knows? But I think that since the book has been published, we’ve just seen more and more and more excellent and not mom and pop diners, but we’re talking outstanding restaurants that have went plant based or that have much more plant based options. So it used to be you go to a restaurant and you know, I’m going to order something vegan and they give you the vegetables – Priya can talk about this – the vegetables and rice or pasta. And it’s like, wow.
Natalie MacLean (00:10:35) – From the side dishes. Yeah [laughter].
Jennifer Huether (00:10:37) – You get the side dishes. And this is not happening anymore. There’s a massive trend even in restaurants that are not vegan or vegetarian. They’re offering better and more creative choices. So I think maybe talking about that.
Natalie MacLean (00:10:53) – Yeah. No, that’s a great idea. I assume Planta in Toronto is or was a plant based restaurant. Does it still exist?
Priya Rao (00:11:01) – It does. And they have expanded incredibly. So they are now in Miami, I believe, in Los Angeles and New York as well. So they’re really expanding. And they have 3 or 4 different restaurants in Toronto alone.
Natalie MacLean (00:11:14) – And do either of you know much about 11 Madison in New York? I heard they flipped like, that’s one of Danny Meyer’s top restaurants. And it was only, I don’t know, in the last few years that they went to an entire vegan based or vegetarian based menu.
Priya Rao (00:11:29) – Yeah, I had the great fortune of dining there. Last summer, I was writing an article on them and it knocked my socks off. I mean, the food was so innovative. It was so French in terms of the beauty of the presentation and just the types of techniques that they use. But yes, chef Daniel Humm transitioned completely to a plant based menu because of climate change and because he realized the need for addressing climate change in terms of what these restaurants are serving and also in terms of food inequity. So he lost some clients, but he gained a lot of clients. And then slowly some of those clients that went away came back because the quality of the food is still astounding. And I don’t think you would miss the meat unless somebody said, there’s no meat in this dish, there’s no meat in this dish. There’s no meat in this dish either. I think overall the experience of it, you would walk away saying I feel completely satisfied. And that was an astounding meal and you wouldn’t really think of there not having been any meat or fish on the plates.
Natalie MacLean (00:12:33) – Oh, well. And do any other restaurants come to mind for either of you that have done something really innovative when it comes to a vegan, either an entire vegan menu or incorporating some really creative types of dishes within their existing menu?
Priya Rao (00:12:48) – Well, I know here in Toronto I would say that Avelo is the top vegan restaurant and it’s fine dining and it’s just gorgeous. Jen has dined there. She actually designed their wine list a while back and they’re just fantastic. So definitely I give them top props in Toronto. And then in Washington, I had a great meal at a place called Elizabeth’s Gone Raw. Now they were ahead of the curve because this was about 8 or 9 years ago, and it’s a completely raw vegan restaurant. I’m not a huge, raw foodie. But the techniques they use to prepare their foods, it was one of the best meals I’ve ever had in my life, so I definitely have to give them props. Montreal has some great restaurants as well. They have some great sushi restaurants that are all plant based sushi. But in terms of Michelin restaurants, because I know you mentioned this, you’re just asking me. In terms of some pre-interview questions, there are a lot of top two and three Michelin star restaurants around the world that have now incorporated vegan and vegetarian menus. So I did a little bit of research and there are 31 in London, UK. There are 21 in Hong Kong, 18 in France, eight in Berlin and ten in New York City. So that’s close to 70 or 80 Michelin starred restaurants around the world that have now incorporated fully vegan or vegetarian menus.
Natalie MacLean (00:14:12) – Wow. That’s impressive. That’s really impressive. And, Jen, are there certain wineries that are really being innovative or leading the way in producing vegan wines?
Jennifer Huether (00:14:22) – Yeah, 100%. There are two that come to mind that Priya and I have worked with extensively. So locally in Ontario, Karlo Estates, of course. Sherry herself is vegan and her husband. And so this is going to be one of those wineries again that, you know, takes it to the next level let’s say. And so even the food that they’re serving there. When you go, if you’re ordering, you know, a charcuterie board is going to be a vegan charcuterie board. And to define that, yes, even in the vineyard, everything is done to vegan standards. So that’s local. They have excellent wines.
Natalie MacLean (00:15:02) – And while you’re on that, Jen, charcuterie?
Jennifer Huether (00:15:07) – Yes. I’ll let you do that one, Priya.
Natalie MacLean (00:15:08) – Yeah. Charcuterie. I always think of cured meats. What’s a vegan charcuterie?
Priya Rao (00:15:14) – I have some examples right here. So this is one of the innovations in plant based food. A lot of vegan charcuterie is made from wheat gluten because it provides that texture that can really mimic meats. So here’s one brand that I really enjoy which is Field Roast. But locally in Toronto I would say that Sausage Party Toronto makes some amazing pepperonis and sausages. And then on the cheese sides you’ll get some fabulous cheeses. Green Goddess Fromagerie is my new favourite Ontario brand. These two women that make an amazing variety of cheeses in different textures and different flavours. And also Veg Cheese is another one that is very, very good. This is a truffle.
Natalie MacLean (00:15:57) – What are they using to make the cheese?
Priya Rao (00:15:59) – Yeah, it’s primarily cashews or other nuts. They can sometimes use seeds like sunflower seeds and then nutritional yeast, which I also have sitting in the jar. The long jar. They’re nutritional yeast. It’s very high in vitamin B and it’s very good for you. But it also provides that cheesy flavor. So if you’re looking to make a cheese sauce at home, you can just use some raw cashews that have been soaked in hot water for half an hour. Blend those with some nutritional yeast, salt, pepper, onions, garlic, all of that. And then you have a cream sauce for your fettuccine without using any dairy. So those are some of the main ingredients in vegan cheeses. They also use agar agar as a binding agent. Coconut oil usually is used so those are the kind of four main ingredients.
Natalie MacLean (00:16:43) – Okay. And back to you, Jen. You mentioned Karlo Estates. What other wineries are leading the way in vegan wines?
Jennifer Huether (00:16:51) – Well, we would say probably together Querciabella, which is in Tuscany. It’s a winery that is based in Tuscany. They have beautiful Tuscan wines. So you can get a Chianti. Or you can get wines that are maybe Merlot based, so you know they’ve got some edge to them. They’re beautiful wines in their own right. However, again, the owner of the winery himself is vegan. And so again, it’s taking it to that level where taking all three boxes so very vegan, very good.
Natalie MacLean (00:17:25) – . And Jen, you have a wine or two there with you. Maybe you can tell us what those are. That one is?
Jennifer Huether (00:17:32) – Well, I brought a couple of my favourites. So I have a Chablis right here, and then I have a Beaujolais, which has a little bit.
Natalie MacLean (00:17:43) – Okay. Do you have the bottles there by chance?
Jennifer Huether (00:17:45) – I do, I do. So I just grabbed what was really in my cellar. I have some wine. So this, as you can see, is a lovely. It’s a Premier Cru. So this is a Chardonnay that is grown in Chablis. And so you’re really going to get that kind of minerality from the earth and the soil and the terroir here. It’s really fresh. It’s high in acid. Very vibrant green apple, citrus. And so it’s going to work with something like Priya’s crab cakes, which are one of my absolute favourites.
Natalie MacLean (00:18:18) – And what’s the winery, Jen?
Jennifer Huether (00:18:20) – Yeah. So again, this was just kind of a last minute pull for my cellar. But this is a Domaine Vocoret et Fils and this is a Premier Cru vineyard. And it is Montée de Tonnerre, as you can see right there. So one of the top Premier Cru vineyards in Chablis. Really lovely producer as well. And then for the Beaujolais I went with Beaujolais Village and this is Georges Duboeuf as you can see. And I really find this Beaujolais interesting because it’s a bit grippy. And, you know, again, it always has that acidity. It always has that freshness. All that red fruit. But it’s got a little bit of grip to it. And there is some carbonic maceration for those of you who know that wine term. So basically it’s just got this bit of just a hint of like this banana note, a little bit of bubble gum just kind of makes it fun and just very, very drinkable, very easy drinking, but also great with food.
Natalie MacLean (00:19:16) – Yeah, that carbonic maceration for those who may not know, is whole bunch or whole berries of grapes are pressed so that they don’t de-stem them. throw the whole bunches in during fermentation. Is that correct?
Jennifer Huether (00:19:28) – Yes, it is correct. So it’s kind of like this geeky wine thing where they’re kind of in an inert vessel and there’s an intercellular fermentation, and it just kind of pushes the fruit out and it can give it a few extra characteristics, such as this kind of bubble gum, cotton candy, sometimes banana, banana popsicle. Just kind of gives it all these notes and kind of softens it up and makes the wine a little more comfortable.
Natalie MacLean (00:19:56) – And people are attracted, like, I don’t know if everyone would find bubble gum attractive as a wine aroma, but.
Jennifer Huether (00:20:02) – It’s an element. It is a tiny little hint of it in the wine as you’re tasting it, right. So it’s kind of like you’re smelling Beaujolais. You’re like, oh, it smells like violets, and it smells like red cranberries and red cherries. And oh, there’s a little hint of bubble gum, something kind of candied. Maybe it’s red licorice to you. And there’s this minerality to it, right? And there’s something savory. So it’s an element. It’s not oh it smells like bubble gum.
Natalie MacLean (00:20:30) – Sure, sure. And maybe for each of you, maybe starting with Priya, what has been one of your most memorable vegan food and wine pairings? You maybe were at a dinner or maybe it was just a casual picnic or somewhere, but what was the most memorable pairing you’ve ever had?
Priya Rao (00:20:48) – That is a good question. I would say, like in the course of the book. Just. There were so many great ones. I agree with Jen that I think the crab cakes that we paired with Chablis – I believe it was – was just a gorgeous, gorgeous pairing. And it is one of those moments, like those moments that Jen mentioned earlier, where you feel like the wine tastes better and the food tastes better, and together it’s just like this moment of glory. So that is definitely one I think.
Also, I really enjoyed there is a sticky toffee pudding and I can’t remember what wine you paired with it Jen. But you know, oftentimes people don’t do dessert wines with desserts because it’s you’re already eating something so sugary. And so if you’re going to do a pairing, you need to match it with something that’s as sweet or sweeter. And I don’t always like to have too much sugar. But I remember like that sticky toffee pudding. When I like to indulge, I really like to go hard. So sticky toffee pudding with the dessert wine and I can’t remember if it was a Sauterne, but it was just…
Jennifer Huether (00:21:48) – I’d have to look it up.
Priya Rao (00:21:49) – … gorgeous. We could look it up. I know we’ll have to look it up, but maybe I’ll look that up while Jen talks about hers, because I just remember thinking, this is spectacular.
Jennifer Huether (00:21:57) – Okay, so we did Sherry with that, Priya. So we did a Pedro Jimenez Sherry and then we did Ice Wine. So yes, it was sugar on sugar on sugar. But this is the principle of food and wine pairing when it comes to sweet desserts, the wine that you’re pairing it with has to be as sweet as if not sweeter. Otherwise it’s not going to be a great taste. Bitter. So you’ve got sticky toffee pudding is very sweet. Delicious. Though memorable. There’s obviously so many memories. There was a Mexican restaurant in Toronto, La Bartola. Am I saying that right?
Priya Rao (00:22:39) – La Bartola.
Jennifer Huether (00:22:40) – Yeah. La Bartola. Bartola. okay. And now that we got that right I went and did a dinner there with actually Karlo Estates. It was a charity event actually. So Sherry from Karlo had offered up the wines and for her to come and I’d offer it up myself as well to go and just to kind of talk about the wines and we had a fabulous group. And of course, memorable experiences are also about who you’re with. So they were just so much fun. But the food was unbelievable and very unexpected. And here’s the thing you don’t always think about Mexican food and vegan hand in hand. But the chef there was deep and he went into deep traditional, you know, central Mexico food where they’re taking hours and hours and hours to prepare one ingredient, if you will. And it was so complex and original and thoughtful. That was just such a great experience for me.
Natalie MacLean (00:23:41) – That is great. And just to clarify, some people are under the impression that plants don’t have protein, but they do have protein. How is it different from meat protein? First of all, and how does that impact your pairings that you make with wine?
Priya Rao (00:23:57) – Yeah, that’s a great question.
Jennifer Huether (00:23:59) – I’ll start with meat and then you can talk about plant based protein. So meat is very easy to pair with wine. Wine has acidity right. It’s an acidic beverage. And so that acidity naturally cuts through the fat that is in meat. So if you think about a ribeye steak and it’s got lots of marbling, there’s lots of fat in it. You take a Cabernet Sauvignon which is got a lot of acidity and tannin. And so the acidity in the wine is working to cut the fat and the grease, and then the tannin is also helping you kind of digest that piece of steak, if you will. It’s very, very easy to have great pairings when you have butter, when you have animal fat, etc., right. The game changes a bit when you’re moving to plant based protein and fat. And over to Priya.
Priya Rao (00:24:57) – Yeah. And in terms of plants, yes. All plants have protein varying degrees, but also in terms of plant based foods, you know, even when you’re talking about things like brown rice, there’s a lot of protein in brown rice. Oftentimes you’ll find protein shakes that are made from pea protein because peas have a very high amount of protein. So there are so many sources of plant based proteins that are not just plants in terms of fruits and vegetables, but in terms of other sources legumes, beans, nuts and seeds. You know, all great sources of usually low saturated fat protein.
Natalie MacLean (00:25:32) – And how is the protein different from meat proteins? Like is it shaped differently such that it, I don’t know, globs onto wine molecules differently? Or do you know what goes on in terms of meat protein versus plant protein?
Priya Rao (00:25:46) – I don’t know in terms of the molecular structure of it, but I know Jen talks often about the fats in the proteins and how they work with the wine. So that’s really what I know of it. Jen can go further.
Jennifer Huether (00:25:59) – Yeah, I don’t know molecular structure either or how this all happens. That’s a great question. We need to get a scientist involved at some point and dig deep into this because it is very interesting actually. But from a sommeliers perspective, you know, when I think about plant based fats, they are a lot cleaner okay. There is less viscosity to them. When I think about animal fats, they are much more viscous, oily, and textured right. So there’s a difference in texture there when it comes to the actual fat. And then when you think about the protein itself, again, we’re thinking about a different texture. When you think about a steak, it has a chewy texture. You have to really kind of, you know, your jaw is, let’s say, working in a way.
So there’s a different texture when you’re thinking about plant based proteins, they’re kind of in synergy with the rest of the molecular structure and everything that’s going on, and they just come up and present differently in a little cleaner, if you will. So sometimes what Priya was working on was things like, you know, finding that right texture so that it is in a way replicating to a degree that viscous fat and that sort of cerebral biting down into protein or into texture that feels more meaty, if you will. Those were the dishes she was replicating. So that is an art and a skill in and of itself, for sure.
Natalie MacLean (00:27:36) – Sure. That makes sense. This is great. I can’t believe how quickly the time has flown. So I’m going to ask each one of you for a tip. Other than the ones that we’ve shared and you’ve shared lots today, maybe starting with you, Priya. One tip that our listeners can take away that will make them whatever smarter about wine, or how to pair vegan wines and foods, or whatever you like. Just one tip in maybe less than a minute.
Priya Rao (00:28:06) – Well, we did sort of touch upon it, but I’m going to say that Riesling is a fantastic wine to try with a variety of spicy foods. So I would say get a group of friends together, get a bunch of different Rieslings from super dry to super sweet and then get different dishes that vary from low spice level to really spicy, and see how you can find a Riesling that will actually pair with every one of those and will work. Because spicy foods, especially ethnic foods from India or from Asia, can be very difficult to pair with wines, which is why mostly people drink beer with them. But I would give Riesling a shot for that.
Natalie MacLean (00:28:42) – Nicely done. I didn’t even have to use the buzzer there anyway. Jen, anything from any of the universe? It doesn’t even have to be vegan wines and foods. But what is one wine tip you would share for those listening?
Jennifer Huether (00:28:59) -Well, I brought my wine tip, which is a Coravin. I’m not sure if your viewers have seen this before. If you are into wine, it is a bit of an expensive gadget, right. It is a couple hundred dollars, but so many people are afraid to pull the cork on a nice bottle of wine because I’m not going to drink it within a day. You know, I just want a glass. And so this tool is just great because it essentially is, you know, putting inert gas back into the bottle. And it’s allowing you to keep that bottle for you know perhaps a month or two months just depending. The more you take out of the bottle, the less time you have of course with that wine. But it will extend the shelf life of that wine for you for some weeks, which is just fantastic, because maybe you’re the only person who enjoys wine in your house or maybe your partner is doing dry January. I don’t know. But we find that people are being more thoughtful about their consumption as well. And so I think just having these tips and tricks and tools so that you can preserve the life of that wine are helpful if you don’t want to spend the money, certainly put the cork back in and throw it in the fridge. That’ll help at least give you a couple more days out of that wine.
Natalie MacLean (00:30:16) – Yeah, absolutely. And before we wrap up, is there anything that we haven’t gone over, anything that we missed that you wanted to add?
Priya Rao (00:30:24) – I mean, there’s so much that we could add. We could get into so much more detail on in terms of the food side and making easy swaps. I would say that that’s one of the things that Jen and I really focused on in terms of the book is that there are the recipes, but there’s also she has included a lot of wine knowledge, you know, including her five favourite vegan or wine varietals and styles to pair with plant based foods. And I’ve included some tips on how to be a very eco minded hostess. So how to avoid being wasteful and consuming too much plastic. And so using sort of the beauty of nature and things that might be in your pantry or in your garden to entertain. So I would say that, you know, take a look at the book and you’ll find a lot of great tips in there that are aside from just recipes and pairings.
Natalie MacLean (00:31:09) – Awesome. Jen?
Jennifer Huether (00:31:11) – Oh, I’m going to agree with her. I’m just going to plug the book. Yeah. Shameless. Plug the book there.
Natalie MacLean (00:31:17) – So we’re listening. We’ll put it in the show notes.
Jennifer Huether (00:31:21) – We want you to read it. So today was a taste of what’s in there. But yeah, there’s a lot more information and it really just spells out how to make a beautiful meal, even if you are not vegan or vegetarian. And this is the thing I’ll add is that one of the surprises for me is that the people who were showing up to our events – and we’ve done several – a lot of times weren’t themselves vegan. But you know what? It was their daughter in law, you know, who comes for Easter dinner and comes for Christmas dinner and comes for Sunday dinner. And they wanted to make her feel welcome and to have a great experience. And they wanted to know how to do that. And so I love this book, you know, because it can also give you the tools. Sometimes it’s just a guest you’re entertaining and you want to make them feel totally welcome and like you’ve put some thought into it.
Priya Rao (00:32:16) – Yeah. And I just want to say one more thing, which is that our partner for the book. We have a charitable partner which is the Toronto Vegetarian Food Bank. So a portion of proceeds from every book goes to support their work because they provide plant based foods for people in need. And that’s something I think we don’t often think about is that when people have to use food banks to supplement their food, sometimes they have to make a choice between just feeding their families or sticking with their own personal dietary beliefs. So we’re really proud of the work that Matt Noble and his team do at the Toronto Vegetarian Food Bank, and happy to support them with the book.
Natalie MacLean (00:32:51) – Absolutely. That’s great. We’ll put a link to their charity in the show notes as well. So where can we buy and find the book The Social Herbivore?
Priya Rao (00:33:00) – Yeah, you can find it wherever you’re watching from the world. You can find it through Amazon, so you can order a copy through Amazon. You can also visit the site at TheSocialHerbivore.co. And we have a tab there for the book so you can order it there. And if you order it directly from us, then we can have it signed for you if that’s what you like, so we can personalize it for you. But it’s definitely widely available on Amazon.
Natalie MacLean (00:33:22) – Great. And where can we find the two of you online?
Priya Rao (00:33:26) – Well, you can find me at Social Herbivore and also on Instagram at Social Herbivore. And Jen.
Jennifer Huether (00:33:33) – Yeah, on Instagram at Jen.Huether.MS
Natalie MacLean (00:33:39) – Excellent. Well thank you both. This has been so informative. Just love this. And you’re right, we could talk a lot further. But you know there’s the book. People can get the book to really dive into this topic more than we have. So I will say goodbye for now, but I’m really looking forward to the next time we can chat, ladies. And maybe it’ll be in person even.
Priya Rao (00:33:59) – Yeah, that would be great.
Jennifer Huether (00:34:01) – That would be great. And thank you for having us. Really appreciate it.
Natalie MacLean (00:34:06) – Oh, awesome. No, that’s great. And just a reminder that you can win a copy of the book The Social Herbivore. Just email me [email protected]. There it is. And we’ll link to it in the show notes, too. Well done. Thank you both.
Speaker 4 (00:34:20) – Thank you, thank you.
Jennifer Huether (00:34:22) – Bye for now.
Natalie MacLean (00:34:22) – Well, there you have it. I hope you enjoyed our chat with Priya and Jennifer. Here are my takeaways. Number one, which wineries are leading the way with vegan wines? Well, they mentioned Karlo Estates Winery in Prince Edward County, Ontario and La Casella Winery in Tuscany. Those are just two of many wineries at the forefront of vegan wines. Number two, how are some restaurants expanding into innovative vegan and vegetarian menus? Restaurants like 11 Madison in New York are transitioning entirely to vegan and vegetarian menus without giving up choice and flavour while many other restaurants are offering more than just one token vegan option. And number three, what makes Rieslings so versatile, especially with vegan dishes? Well, it has an incredible range of flavours and styles, from super dry to super sweet, and it has a lovely balancing acidity, no heavy tannin, oak or alcohol, so it can go with so many kinds of cuisines as per your notes.
In the show notes, you’ll find the full transcript of my conversation with Priya and Jennifer, links to their website and book, the video versions of these conversations on Facebook and YouTube live, and where you can order my book online now no matter where you live. You can also find a link to take a free online food and wine pairing class with me called the Five Wine and Food Pairing Mistakes That Can Ruin Your Dinner and How to Fix Them Forever at Nataliemaclean.com/class. That’s all in the show notes at nataliemaclean.com/276.
Email me if you have a tip, question, or if you’ve read my book or in the process of reading it at natalie@nataliemaclean. com. If you missed episode 17, go back and take a listen. I chat about organic and biodynamic wines with rock star winemaker Thomas Bachelor. I’ll share a short clip with you now to whet your appetite.
Thomas Bachelder (00:36:24) – Organics and biodynamics are the same from an organic viticulture point of view and from a winemaking point of view. It’s non-intervention. You can use mine minerals like sulfur and copper, put them into water and spray and they help protect. Any rainfall they get washed right out. Now, whether you’re an organics or biodynamics, the copper is a metal. It’s a heavy metal and you can eventually get toxicity in your soil. So even with organics and biodynamics, we are watching copper like a hawk. We have virgin soils over here compared to Burgundy. So I learned from the Burgundians. They actually look at the load they’re putting on a vineyard every year and they try to skip treatments. Imagine that you’re organic, you’re using organic materials, and you’re trying to skip treatments. It’s like not taking your full antibiotic dose when you’ve been sick. But we do that to try to always use the least interventional land we can.
Natalie MacLean (00:37:28) – You won’t want to miss next week when we chat with Ellen Clifford, host of the Wine Situation Podcast. If you liked this episode or learned even one thing from it, please email or tell one friend about it this week, especially someone you know who’d be interested in learning more about vegan wines and delicious pairings. It’s easy to find my podcast. Just tell them to search for Natalie MacLean Wine on their favourite podcast app, or they can listen on my website.
Thank you for taking the time to join me here. I hope something great is in your glass this week, perhaps a vegan wine that pairs beautifully with another vegan dish. You don’t want to miss one juicy episode of this podcast, especially the secret full bodied bonus episodes that I don’t announce on social media. So subscribe for free now at nataliemaclean.com/subscribe. Meet me here next week. Cheers.
