Introduction
How do you choose the best wine pairings for dessert? When should you summon the sommelier? How can you improve your smell vocabulary and learn to distinguish between different aromas?
In this episode of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, I’m being interviewed by Scott Sexsmith of Up Close & Personal and Matt Cundill on You May Also Like.
You can find the wines we discussed here.
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Highlights
- Is it normal to find it difficult to detect the tastes and aromas from wine tasting notes?
- How can you improve your smell vocabulary and learn to distinguish between different aromas?
- Does my alcohol consumption concern me, considering my family history of alcoholism?
- How did wine mom culture contribute to the massive increase in women drinking during the pandemic?
- What does it mean to pair the wine with the diner, not the dinner?
- Can thinking more deeply about wine and food pairing increase your enjoyment of both?
- What are some of my go-to wine pairings you can try?
- Can you get a good bottle of wine without spending a fortune?
- Which bargain wines should you try on your next trip to the wine store?
- Is the enjoyment of food the gateway drug to wine?
- How can you find new wines to experiment with?
- What three aspects of wine make it a unique experience compared to other drinks or food?
- Which aspects of wine lead to more sensual enjoyment versus other alcoholic beverages?
- Why does Chianti work with tomato-based foods?
- Why do I prefer to think of myself as an enthusiastic amateur, rather than an expert?
- Are we making any progress in breaking down the elitism and snobbery that have historically been associated with the wine industry?
- How has my taste in wine changed over the years?
- Why do some wines leave you with a headache the next day while others don’t?
- When should you summon the sommelier?
- How does the LCBO’s purchasing power impact the wines that are available in the regions they serve?
- Does your palate change as you age?
- Which wines and regions have flourished in Nova Scotia?
- Which type of wine pairs best with spicy Indian curries?
- Why did I start the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast?
Start The Conversation: Click Below to Share These Wine Tips
About Scott Sexsmith and Up Close & Personal
Scott Sexsmith has worked in media for over 30 years, having spent the bulk of his career in radio. He started out as an on-air host, working his way up to senior-level management positions. Connecting with an audience through engaging content has always been his first love, though. In addition to Up Close & Personal, Scott also hosts a podcast with Michael Friscolanti called Inside the Village, which is available across all podcast platforms and the Village Media Network.
Newsmakers, hosts, athletes, and people of influence. Up Close & Personal features prominent Canadians who have become a part of our everyday lives. Veteran broadcaster Scott Sexsmith goes one-on-one to get the untold stories from some of the biggest names in Canada.
About Matt Cundill and You May Also Like
Matt Cundill’s voice has been on radio, television and online since the 90’s. More recently, he has taken on films and worked with e-learning companies to train employees and podcast companies to deliver the perfect host-read ad. In 2015, he started working in voice full-time and completed over 800 projects in 2022. You might also recognize Matt as the owner of the Sound Off Podcast Network.
You May Also Like with Podcast Wizard Matt Cundill is produced by the team at the Sound Off Media Company. You May Also Like celebrates curiosity and inquisition, every other week exploring subject matter you may like.
Resources
- Connect Scott Sexsmith
- Connect with Matt Cundill
- Diary of a Book Launch: An Insider Peek from Idea to Publication
- Wine Witch on Fire Free Companion Guide for Book Clubs
- My Books:
- Unreserved Wine Talk | Episode 10: Wines for Seduction: A Vine Romance for Valentine’s Day
- My new class The 5 Wine & Food Pairing Mistakes That Can Ruin Your Dinner And How To Fix Them Forever
Tag Me on Social
Tag me on social media if you enjoyed the episode:
- @nataliemaclean and @natdecants on Facebook
- @nataliemaclean on Twitter
- @nataliemacleanwine on Instagram
- @nataliemaclean on LinkedIn
- Email Me at [email protected]
Thirsty for more?
- Sign up for my free online wine video class where I’ll walk you through The 5 Wine & Food Pairing Mistakes That Can Ruin Your Dinner (and how to fix them forever!)
- You’ll find my books here, including Unquenchable: A Tipsy Quest for the World’s Best Bargain Wines and Red, White and Drunk All Over: A Wine-Soaked Journey from Grape to Glass.
- The new audio edition of Red, White and Drunk All Over: A Wine-Soaked Journey from Grape to Glass is now available on Amazon.ca, Amazon.com and other country-specific Amazon sites; Books.Apple.com/ca, Books.Apple.com and other country-specific Apple Books sites; Audible.ca and Audible.com.
Transcript
Natalie MacLean (00:00):
I live a bit of a double life. I have professional wine and I have personal wine. I’m surrounded by wine. I mean, it’s an occupational duty to drink or taste wine every day for me, we don’t talk about it in the wine industry, but our industry has the highest rate of substance abuse of all professions. And that’s another reason I wrote this book to start talking about these issues. There’s so much shame. I say the difference between tasting and drinking is spitting and thinking. It’s like a movie critic who goes to a movie and is writing notes because they have to write a review versus the movie critic who’s off duty and just goes to watch a movie and not care about plot and narrative and all that. Do you have a thirst to learn about wine? Do you love stories about wonderfully obsessive people, hauntingly beautiful places and amusingly awkward social situations? Well, that’s the blend here on the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast. I’m your host, Natalie McLean, and each week I share with you unfiltered conversations with celebrities in the wine world, as well as confessions from my own tipsy journey as I write my third book on this subject. I’m so glad you’re here. Now pass me that bottle please and let’s get started.
(01:30):
Welcome to episode 272. How do you choose the best wine pairings for dessert? When should you summon the sommelier in a restaurant? And how can you improve your smell vocabulary and learn to distinguish between different aromas? In today’s episode, you’ll hear the stories and tips that answer those questions. In my conversations with Scott Sexsmith on his podcast up close and personal as well as Matt Cule on his podcast. You may also like
(02:05):
Happy Valentine’s Day if you’re listening to this episode on the day it’s released or belated Gallant’s day for yesterday, I’ve been pairing wine and chocolate on CTVs morning show and city TV’s breakfast television because I just love to layer my vices. Why not double down right now? Some people think the two should not be paired, but the students in my online wine smart course know the right combination can be divine. My favorite, so glad you asked A Tawny Port with its toff feed finish and sea salt milk chocolate caramels that melt in your mouth. Yes, please. What’s your favorite combo? Let me know. Impersonal News Decanter one of the planet’s most respected wine magazines just selected Wine witch on fire rising from the ashes of divorce, defamation, and drinking too much as their January editor’s book pick. Amy Wisla, editor of the magazine also added this review.
(03:06):
This is an honest memoir written by award-winning wine writer, Natalie McLean charting how she overcame struggles in her life, personal and professional. She gives an insight into what it’s like to work as a woman in a male dominated wine industry and recommend some of her favorite wines along the way. It’s honest, raw, and inspirational. If you haven’t got your copy yet of the Little Wine Witch and would like to support it and this podcast that I do for you on a volunteer basis to ensure it continues, please order it from any online book retailer no matter where you live. Give it as a gift. It usually arrives in a day or two, and of course the ebook is instant and it’s a fast read. Every little bit helps spread the message. In this book of Hope, justice, and Resilience, I’ll put a link in the show notes to all retailers [email protected] slash 2 7 2. If you’ve read the book or are reading it, I’d love to hear from you at [email protected]. I’d also love to know which other podcasts you listen to. They don’t need to be wine related though. I’m interested in those two. I’m always looking to expand my playlist. Okay on with the show.
Scott Sexsmith (04:23):
This is up close and personal. I’m Scott Sexsmith. She’s an accomplished wine expert, has appeared on the New York Times bestsellers list and just over a week ago released her third book. Very excited to have Natalie McLean on the show today. Natalie, great to have you on up close and personal.
Natalie MacLean (04:39):
It is great to be here with you, Scott. Thank you.
Scott Sexsmith (04:41):
So the new book, your third is titled Wine Witch on Fire, rising from the Ashes of Divorce, depression, defamation and Drinking Too Much. Sounds like there was all the
Natalie MacLean (04:51):
Dismal Ds.
Scott Sexsmith (04:53):
Lots to unpack there and we will, but I should tell you, I’m a wine drinker. I love wine. I’m the furthest thing from a wine snob because I’m uneducated in that regard, but I often read the backs of bottles and the notes that you should be smelling and tasting and a lot of times I can’t find them. Is that normal?
Natalie MacLean (05:11):
Yeah, it is. Some wine descriptions seem to me to be like fruit salad with a number. There’s a tasting note and it’s every possible fruit that you’ve never tasted. It’s really hard when you’re just starting out to detect all of those aromas and what I tell my online wine and food pairing class students is smell everything. We live in a very visual culture and auditory culture, but we’ve really lost our sense of smell in terms of its acuity because we no longer have to sniff out predators or poison berries or whatever. But you can get that back, that smell vocabulary by sniffing everything when you first cut out, cut vegetables and fruit, smell it. That’s when it’s most. If you put cinnamon on your toast, smell that too. And I even tell my students, smell the leather furniture. Just don’t let anybody catch you doing that because they’ll think you’re a little weird. But we need to develop this vocabulary again to know what we’re smelling. And then the second step that I usually advise is take two different glasses of wine side by side. It could be two chardonnays, but from different wineries or different regions, and then the differences are going to start to jump out at you, but we often just drink one glass at a time for pleasure. But I do encourage two fisted drinking in moderation of course, so that you can learn to distinguish the differences between the aromas.
Scott Sexsmith (06:40):
Alright, well I’m no quitter, so I’ll keep trying.
Natalie MacLean (06:43):
At least the homework is liquid and it’s fun, so that’s
Scott Sexsmith (06:47):
Right. Best homework ever. Let’s get back to the book if we can for a few minutes. The title suggests a bit of a journey, some battles likely some self-reflection, and I know you’ve said the book has a happy ending, but you had some things to get through before you got to that point. Let’s talk about that.
Natalie MacLean (07:03):
I call it my no good, terrible, awful bad vintage. It started with my husband of 20 years asking for a divorce at the beginning of this year that caught me offside, kind of blinded, and then it ended with this online mob of rival writers coming for my job. And in the end that led to defamation, so thus all the D’s. And then how did I cope? I drank too much. So my over-drinking was situational and in response to the depression from the divorce and the anxiety from the online mobbing and through lots of therapy, which is in the book and early readers have really appreciated being on a fly on a wall in these sessions, I was able to moderate, so I had to deal with the underlying issues first. And then I developed all kinds of techniques and tips for moderating my own alcohol consumption without going sober. And that’s definitely a route that some people have to take, but I was able to get to a place where I was back into a healthy relationship with wine.
Scott Sexsmith (08:08):
Does it scare you that you could get back to that place?
Natalie MacLean (08:12):
Sure. That’s a great question. It’s in my DNA if you believe that alcoholism is hereditary. I think it’s a mix of nurture and nature, but having been to kind of the lowest of lows with alcohol in my life and my feelings, I feel I’m wiser about it now. It’s not automatic to just reach for a glass of wine.
Scott Sexsmith (08:34):
Would you say then, Natalie, you went from needing that drink to now I just want to sit down and enjoy a glass of wine, not because I need it now. I just want it because I want to have it with a great meal. Great experience.
Natalie MacLean (08:47):
Exactly. So I live a bit of a double life. I have professional wine and I have personal wine. I’m surrounded by wine. I mean it’s an occupational duty to drink or taste wine every day for me. And we don’t talk about it in my industry, the wine industry, but our industry has the highest rate of substance abuse of all professions. And that’s another reason I wrote this book to start talking about these issues. There’s so much shame. I say the difference between tasting and drinking is spitting and thinking. It’s like a movie critic who goes to a movie and is writing notes. They have to write a review versus the movie critic who’s off duty and just goes to watch a movie and not care about plot and narrative and all that. But with my personal wine as you’re asking about, yes, I’ve gotten to a place where it just for enjoyment, progress is never linear. There’s always some backtracking and then forward movement again. But it’s the struggle that counts and it’s one that I am determined to make every day.
Scott Sexsmith (09:50):
I think the number that you quoted was 323% increase in women drinking during the pandemic compared to only 39% for the overall population. If you could maybe explain to the audience, Natalie, what wine mom culture is and why it had that kind of damaging impact.
Natalie MacLean (10:09):
I think most of us have seen those little sayings online. Wine is like duct tape, it fixes everything for a woman or whatever. There’s all these little LOLs, and again, you think, oh, that’s cute or that’s funny at first, but underneath is just there’s a bitter message or there’s a message that says, I feel alone, or I feel helpless, or I am overwhelmed, or someone please see me and what I’m doing
Scott Sexsmith (10:39):
Or that I need it to get through the day.
Natalie MacLean (10:41):
Exactly.
Scott Sexsmith (10:42):
Or through the whatever.
Natalie MacLean (10:44):
Exactly. Exactly. And other moms or women often forward them because they’re all feeling this way. And so perhaps in a way it makes women feel more united. I don’t know. But I should just say right up front, I was not a bystander in this whole wine mom meme stuff. I was team captain, so I used to call my glass of wine at 5:00 PM Mommy’s little helper. The title of my first book is Red, white and Drunk All Over. So I always made my drinking habits fodder for laughs or entertainment, and I haven’t turned into a complete sour sourpuss or downer, but I hope now that my own overdrinking and a reexamination of some of these wine mom memes and so on, can feel a discussion on what’s really behind, whether it’s a bottle label or a social media meme or whatever. Can we talk about those issues that aren’t being talked about?
Scott Sexsmith (11:44):
Let’s talk about something a little more fun and that’s pairings. Are we long past the misconception and notion of red only with red meat and with chicken and fish? Which begs the question, what do you possibly do with rose? Is it more drink what you want with whatever you want now?
Natalie MacLean (12:01):
Sure. I always say pair the wine to the diner, not the dinner someone came up with that. It’s probably on crocheted on a pillow somewhere, but it just means have the wine you want to drink. Don’t get too caught up in the perfect pairing. Now I teach online courses about food and wine pairings. It’s how I make my living. So I have a vested interest in people wanting to maximize their pleasure. And I do think there’s a reason why most of us don’t put ketchup on ice cream. There’s a contrast in flavors and weights and textures and so on. So I do think you can have more pleasure by thinking a little bit more about what you’re pairing. So for example, a very light, delicate white wine is going to get clobbered by a big juicy steak, but there’s far more flexibility I think, than we think there is, or traditionally we were led to believe a grilled salmon goes beautifully with pinot noir.
(12:53):
We’re told never to do fish and red wine, but it’s the char grilled nature of the fish. The salmon is really meaty, the wine is really light, so they make a lovely pairing. So I think the fun is in experimenting and I advise my students go out and buy yourself a mixed case of wine. Determine what your budget per bottle is. Ask the store staff, Hey, I like this bottle. Can you recommend 11 others that are like this, but different kind of the same flavor category? And then just experiment with all kinds of different foods. And if it doesn’t work out between the wine and the food, have a bun for goodness sakes, don’t stress. But I think you can have a lot of fun with pairings.
Scott Sexsmith (13:32):
What would some of your go-tos be if you’re cooking a chicken or walk me through what are some of your go-tos?
Natalie MacLean (13:39):
Sure. So chicken is a kind of like a blank canvas. It can be anything depending on how you’re preparing it. And I should note again, in the interest of full transparency, I do not cook. I pull corks. So I was fortunate to meet a partner who cooks, so he takes care of that. So it works out. But when he cooks chicken, like grilled chicken, that’s again those big robust cherry flavours. You’re probably going to want to have a… I would choose a red wine, but it could be medium full body. It could be Cabernet, it could be Shiraz, but Pinot Noir will work as well, which is a lighter red. But conversely, if you’re having a lighter fish dish, I would go toward lighter whites or a Rosé. Rosé can do almost anything, especially a dry Rosé, not the syrupy pink stuff we used to drink in the seventies or eighties, or actually I wasn’t drinking them then, but I hear tales that that was happening.
Scott Sexsmith (14:31):
Yes, yes tales.
Natalie MacLean (14:33):
But I have another little quick tip that I give my students and that is the lemon or butter test. So normally would you squeeze some lemon on the dish – so maybe a light fish dish or whatever – then look for wines that have a citrus, bright, almost lemony flavour like Pinot Grigio or Sauvignon Blanc or a lot of them will say that on the back label. Conversely, if you were to slather butter on a steak, then go for something that’s big and bold and round. It could be an oaked Chardonnay, but I would veer toward more of the full-bodied reds.
Scott Sexsmith (15:10):
So I like a Shiraz with a steak. Am I out to lunch or is that okay?
Natalie MacLean (15:14):
Nope. You’re okay. You’re still part of the cool kids.
Scott Sexsmith (15:17):
Okay, good to know. And I also like a Cab Sauv with pizza of all things still. Still okay?
Natalie MacLean (15:21):
That will work, too. Sometimes I find like if you go with Hawaiian pizza, some of these sweeter flavours, it’ll make your full body reds taste a little bitter by comparison because – yet another tip I give is the wine always must be sweeter than the food. Otherwise the wine will taste bitter by comparison. So if you have dessert, make sure your wine is sweeter than the dessert itself.
Scott Sexsmith (15:43):
Got it. And pineapple on a pizza, that’s a whole other show. We’ll save that further.
Natalie MacLean (15:48):
Yeah we just don’t have the time.
Scott Sexsmith (15:48):
That’s a whole other discussion. Here’s another misconception I think too, Natalie, and correct me if I’m wrong, you don’t have to spend a fortune to get a good bottle of wine.
Natalie MacLean (15:57):
No, you don’t. There’s so many great wines on the market. So competition is increased from new wine regions and new wine producing countries. Technology has made wines better and more consistent and there’s just more choice. So that’s brought the quality to price ratio down in line where it’s very affordable. I think in that sort of $12 to $15 range is a sweet spot for many good wines that taste twice as expensive as they cost. And those are the ones that I’m focused on when I’m recommending them on my website.
Scott Sexsmith (16:31):
I don’t want to put you on the spot, but is there one if I’m going to the LCBO today in that $12 to $15 range and let’s pick a red and a white that I should go to.
Natalie MacLean (16:40):
Sure. So if you want to go abroad because you love Shiraz, the Clancy’s red label from the Barossa Valley is always good. If you want to go local in Ontario, I really like Henry of Pelham Baco Noir. Very full bodied with your whites. I love Cave Spring Riesling from Niagara or go to the West Coast, Hester Creek, Quails Gate. Fantastic wines. If you want a nice buttery Chardonnay, la Crema from California.
Scott Sexsmith (17:09):
All right, perfect. They’re on the list. This has been great. Natalie MacLean, congrats on the book, best of luck. And it seems that the most fitting way to end our chat is to simply say, cheers.
Natalie MacLean (17:21):
Cheers, Scott. Thank you.
Matt Cundill (17:28):
This is a very informal poll that I’ve done, but I find that a hundred percent of the people who love wine also love food.
Natalie MacLean (17:37):
Very astute.
Matt Cundill (17:38):
Is the enjoyment of food, the gateway drug to wine?
Natalie MacLean (17:42):
It is. It is. And I find even to this day, it’s what I lead with. Food is far less intimidating. You don’t look at a mountain of cantaloupes and wonder, where’s my vintage chart? How do I know which one to buy? I find that a lot of people are far less intimidated if we talk about food and then which wine might pair with those dishes because no one gets uptight about food. I, however, do pick the wine first and then make the food match, but I also choose my earrings first and then the outfit. So I’m not typical. I’d be an outlier in any study you would do.
Matt Cundill (18:16):
I don’t know too much about pairing food with wine other than it’s a lot of success and failure. And somebody once just told me, and feel free to refute this and I suspect you will, somebody just said, why don’t you just drink the bottle of wine you like with the food you like?
Natalie MacLean (18:32):
I think you should drink what you like and not get too uptight about finding the perfect pairing because after all, it is just wine. The other beauty of wine is its diversity. It’s wild range of styles and it’s worth experimenting even if it always doesn’t work out. So first of all, yes, drink what you like, but then experiment. And often what I’ll advise my students is if you’re looking for something new in the liquor store and you don’t want to go to your default wine that you always buy, ask someone in the store who’s knowledgeable. Okay, I like this wine typically. If I like this, what else would I like? If this, then that. And that will give the person an idea of your budget, your style, but get you out of your rut.
Matt Cundill (19:14):
How did wine transform your life?
Natalie MacLean (19:16):
Oh, it engaged all of me as a person. So wine is encyclopedic if you want to dive into it. I often said you could do a liberal arts degree with wine as the central hub, and then the spokes it goes out to, it ties into religion and commerce and business and geography, all I think spheres of human endeavor. But then it’s essential experience. So it connects the mind and body. And then even beyond that, it’s a drug. So unlike food, it will give you a high, a buzz. And I love the three aspects of that, the mind, the body, and the buzz.
Matt Cundill (19:54):
Why is wine, sexy? And beer,Vodka and Tequila are not?
Natalie MacLean (20:02):
Before sexy. I’d say communal because I think wine is the drink of civilization and of slow conversation. And for many people, slow conversation is sexy. You don’t knock back a Cabernet the way you would with a vodka shooter. You don’t get a six pack of Chardonnay, at least most people don’t, the way you would with beer because wine is meant to be consumed slowly, often with dinner and with friends. And so I find that lends itself to a lot more sensual enjoyment.
Matt Cundill (20:32):
Why does Chianti work with tomato-based foods?
Natalie MacLean (20:36):
What grows together goes together. So Italian cuisine was developed over centuries as was Italian wine and some of the similar soil characteristics will come out in both. So Chianti has a natural enlivening sort of nervy edgy acidity, and that’s what you get on a lot of tomato sauces from the acidity in the tomatoes. And so they are companions and often equal in weight and flavour and body.
Matt Cundill (21:08):
How many mistakes do you have to make to get really good at this?
Natalie MacLean (21:12):
Many. I’m still making them. I’m wondering if talking here today is one of them. No, I’m just kidding. I always think of myself as an enthusiastic amateur. Never think of myself as an expert. No matter how many people tell me I am one, I just stay 10% ahead in knowledge of those I’m trying to teach and I try to be open about that on my own podcast, Unreserved Wine Talk, because then I feel like listeners, whether they are experts or beginners, will also feel less intimidated. And that you can ask the so-called naive or stupid questions of which there are none of course. But when I’m talking to someone, a winemaker or sommelier or whatever on my podcast, I’ll say, whoa, wait a minute, can you tell me what that is? Malolactic fermentation. Carbonic maceration. It’s not a technical show by the way, but sometimes these words come out and I like to stop and say, okay, just let’s back up. What does that mean in real terms or in lay people’s terms so that we can understand what you’re talking about.
Matt Cundill (22:16):
The wine industry has suffered from being too inside, being quite snobby. I get the feeling that we’re constantly trying to break down the walls of the whole thing. And it can come down to ratings and it can come down to regions and there seems to be a lot of prejudices against certain maybe grapes or regions. Has the industry done better to bring it together?
Natalie MacLean (22:39):
There are certainly still a lot of stratifications and hierarchies and classifications and scores and priced drives, prestige auctions and so on. So it’s a world that is still enmeshed in that quite a bit. But things are changing. These are broad generalizations, but I think that a whole lot more needs to be done. I mean, Bordeaux for example, one of the most prestigious regions in France, still sells its wines based largely on the 1855 classification that largely based the quality of wines based on the prices they were fetching then. So it’s an entrenched kind of categorization, whereas if you think about it, wine itself is cyclical and circular and seasonal from the harvest to the cropping of the grapes and then the cane pruning in winter and so on. It goes around and comes around just as it does in your glass when you’re swirling it.
Matt Cundill (23:38):
How have your tastes changed over the years? Maybe they were in your thirties, you were hot and heavy on a particular brand or grape, and maybe that doesn’t work later in life. Have you changed your taste at all?
Natalie MacLean (23:50):
Yes. I used to try to get the most bang for my buck. So I thought more alcohol the wine has the better it must be because the faster I’m going to get a buzz. And so I loved full bodied Australian Shiraz and caveat now not all Australian Shiraz is high alcohol. There are lots that are made with good balance and moderate alcohol. But my tastes have changed over time just as my taste in music has changed in movies in men. And I like something that’s more balanced, not all muscle upfront, a little bit more intellectual like Pinot Noir. It is the heartbreak grape for a reason in that it’s really difficult to grow. And so the self-described pathological optimists who make this wine do it because they consider it kind of a holy grail because when it’s good, it’s great, it’s sublime, it’s a taste experience that you won’t forget. And often I remember who I was with, where we were, even what I was wearing. I mean, it just goes straight to memory. And when it’s bad, it’s terrible, just awful. It can be unripe green vegetable.
Matt Cundill (24:59):
My taste did change and I got away from Shiraz and I began to sort of move away from, I actually just turned my nose right up at Chardonnay. It’s just too oaky for me. I just can’t deal with it. What can I do to drink wine that’s not going to cause a hangover? Because some wines you’re left with an extra heartbeat in your head right behind the eye and other wines nothing. What is that?
Natalie MacLean (25:25):
It’s individual to body chemistry. A lot of people think the sulfites in wine are doing it, but there are more sulfites in a glass of orange juice than there are in a whole bottle of wine. I think it’s less than 5% of the population is allergic to sulfites and they need to take it seriously. But most of us are not reacting to sulfites. Some of us are reacting to histamines in wine and that’s often associated with red wine that’s been oak aged. And it gives you that sort of runny, but also the congestion, the headache, that sort of thing. It could be the tannins. Again, that usually comes from oak, but it can also come from the actual grape skims and stems depending on how it was made. But I think you have to experiment and see what happens. Now the other thing that can cause that raging headache is just too much of any wine. So you want to think about that as well in terms of consumption. But the headache is also associated with dehydration. What I do at least is alternate a glass of wine for a glass of water so that you stay hydrated. It also helps slow your consumption and you’re not s slaking your thirst simply on alcohol at dinner or whatever, which is tempting. But yeah, I would just experiment with it, Matt.
Matt Cundill (26:39):
When should I summon the sommelier?
Natalie MacLean (26:41):
I love to summon the sommelier if there is one at the restaurant right up front when we’re looking at the restaurant list, because a good restaurant list will have wines that you probably have never tasted. And I include myself in that because they want to give you a taste experience that you can’t get easily in the liquor store and keep you coming back to the restaurant. So the sommelier or the person who buys the wine or some server or the bartender, whoever bought the wines, is going to know more about that list and have tasted those wines generally speaking than you have, even if you are a so-called expert. So I love to summon the sommelier upfront early to select a wine. And for those who are intimidated about, what do I ask? Again, it’s similar to when you go in the store, you can say, well, we had this Malbec from Argentina, if you remember the name, say it, that will give that person an idea of your taste and range, your price range. If you were on a date or it’s a business dinner and you don’t want to declare out loud how much you want to pay for love or a promotion, you could tip the restaurant list up facing you and the server or the somm is usually over your shoulder and you can be pointing to the prices, but you can say, I’d like something in this range, what do you recommend?
So that’s just a sneaky tip there. But yeah, engage because the sommelier or server is going to be excited if they have a decent list about sharing something with you and hopefully a story. So I think every book and every bottle has a story as well.
Matt Cundill (28:08):
I know exactly what you’re saying too. I will sit down and I will go through the, they now bring you an iPad for many places. It’s a whole new way to swipe right, and I’ll go through and I’ll look at all the wines and then I realize these people around me know more than I do about this stuff. So why don’t I let them just pick it for me?
Natalie MacLean (28:28):
Give them some guideposts: price, style, what you’re going to have. They can try to pair it, but yeah, it’s fun. And if they have a tasting menu where you can have a different glass of wine with each course, that’s even better. Then you’re starting to really learn about the differences between wines.
Matt Cundill (28:46):
I’m a French wine snob. Is that okay?
Natalie MacLean (28:48):
It’s okay. I feel like I’m starting to become your Venus Agony Aunt pretty much like confessions, wine confessions. So you’re a French wines knob. So tell me, Matt, when did this start? Did you start feeling this way?
Matt Cundill (29:03):
Probably when I was living in Quebec and the SAQ, which passes out the alcohol in Quebec, just has a great selection of French wines that is unmatched in the rest of Canada. And I just got used to it and then I learned, oh, this is a Bordeaux and this is a Chateauneuf de Pape and then here’s something from Burgundy and here’s something from the south of France. And have you tried Cahors? I just got into it and I liked it. I honestly found it to be better than a few other regions. Listen, I’ve got my favorite wines. I love Italian and I really like Spanish, but I find Spanish wine is very complex. They sort talk about it by the grape, the regions, there’s a big region called Rioja, but there’s smaller regions that just don’t advertise very much. So it really adds to the complexity of it.
Natalie MacLean (29:51):
It does. So on one hand that is intimidating and complex and hard to figure out. On the other, if you want to take the deep dive, that’s fascinating, and you could keep going and learning or tasting and experimenting. But I think especially in Canada and especially in Quebec, French wines are far better known because French wine is complicated too, and it has lots of little regions. I mean you start, it’s like the Russian nesting dolls. You start with France and then you can go to Burgundy and then you can go to Mersault and then you can go to the producer and then it gets right down to who owned those vines. So I think we’re perhaps not as familiar with Spanish wines, but they’re worth experimenting with as well.
Matt Cundill (30:32):
Talk about the LCBO and their purchasing power. One of the things I know is that the two biggest purchasers of wine in North America is Costco and the LCBO. And I will find wine at the LCBO that is cheaper than some of the stuff I can actually get 10 miles from the town where it was made. That’s purchasing power.
Natalie MacLean (30:54):
So yeah, they are the single largest purchaser or whatever of wine in the world. And that’s a curse and a blessing. So they have substantial negotiation power to get those prices down for you. But again, the pleasure of wine is in its diversity. So we don’t have stores like Tuscany Is Us kind of thing, or specialty producers or shops, wine shops. The way we might if it were privatized. And you can think about it a little bit like there’s Amazon and then there’s independent bookstores, and then I guess Indigo is somewhere in the middle there. But would you rather have that diversity? Some people would, but others wouldn’t. They say, oh no, you know what I like that they’re negotiating for me, but they are also choosing for you. And they do have a broad selection, but not as broad as it would be if we had a privatized system.
Matt Cundill (31:44):
So I’ve had some favourite wines over the last 20 years and I grew out of them, and I can’t figure out if that’s me or is that climate change or does it just happen to be that vintage? And I’ll use the example by the way. I saw it on your website and that’s a Chilean wine called Resis, and I love the Cab and bought it by the case about 20 years ago. Then I just stopped and maybe it’s me, or maybe it’s the vintage or maybe it’s climate change. What do you think?
Natalie MacLean (32:13):
Or maybe it’s all three. But Chile actually has a very consistent climate. They’re blessed with a lot of natural good things when it comes to wine. They have the snow melt from the Andes so they don’t have to irrigate. They have this nice warm climate, unlike Canada, where we are challenged with a cool climate, which makes winemakers work a little harder with mold and mildew and rot. And then certain varieties don’t ripen here. So the climate’s pretty consistent. The wine maker or the winery can always change decisions about how the wine is made with more oak, less oak or whatever. But your palate does change as you age change in all kinds of different ways. So it could be everything. And climate change is certainly affecting wine regions everywhere, although it’s not what you might think they call it. Instead of global warming, global weirding, because we’re getting more extreme weather events like hail in summer that can kill the bud shoot or in the spring that can kill the bud shoot, all kinds of things. And so people think, oh, Canada, that must be good for you, global warming. Not always, because what we’re getting are extreme temperatures up and down. So the average doesn’t really hint at the extremes. It’s just this sort of average going up of warmth. But those extreme events can really wreak havoc on a harvest.
Matt Cundill (33:34):
I’m going to be traveling to two places where they make wine that you would never guess they necessarily make wine. So I’m going to be going to an urban winery in Denver, Colorado, and I don’t know what it is about Colorado, but they do have a wine scene and I see tons of people from Colorado tour Europe and just drink wine. And then I’m going to be going to Nova Scotia.
Natalie MacLean (33:56):
Yay, my hometown home province.
Matt Cundill (33:59):
Yeah, I’m going to be going to Grande Pré. And Wolfville where all of a sudden, 30 years after I graduated from Acadia University, they’ve got wine in the hills. What do you think about it? Have you tried it?
Natalie MacLean (34:12):
Oh yeah. They’ve got some wonderful wines down there. So it’s even cooler than Niagara and the Okanagan. But what they’re doing so well with sparkling wines, because Champagne is very cool as well, like Bordeaux and the Rhône and so on, southern France, but they’ve got conditions that are very similar to Champagne. So they’ve got the limestone soils, which makes the grapes or the vines suffer, which is good for vines. Makes them stronger, and they’re producing these crisp, mouthwatering sparkling wines. And then they’ve got another type of wine called Tidal Bay, which a number of wineries make named after the Bay of Funny and the highest tides of the world. And it is an off dry, meaning a touch of sweetness, floral, white wine that is to die for with steamed lobster, shellfish, seafood.
They also do other crisp still white wines very well from hybrid grapes, and then they do some reds. Okay. It’s hard to get ripening down there, but the Pinot Noirs and some of the hybrid grapes, the German grapes that came across with a lot of the vintners who are down there, their ancestors do well. Yeah, so Nova Scotia. That’ll be great. I mean, my goodness. Benjamin Bridge, Light Hall and Wolfville, Domaine Gand Pré for lunch for sure. And their wines. Yeah, you’ve got to hit all those. And then Denver, I have nothing to say. I don’t have any advice, but yeah, it’s a great wine scene.
Matt Cundill (35:40):
Is there a wine that pairs with Indian curries that is not called beer?
Natalie MacLean (35:45):
Yes, there is. So Indian curries could be spicy or hot or both. And so what you need is sweet meets heat. So you need a wine that has a little bit of sweetness to deal with the spice and the heat because if you put spicy or hot dishes with a high alcohol, highly tanic, especially red wine, you will be crying in your beer, no doubt. So you want something like a Riesling. I don’t think a Gewürztraminer has enough acidity, but something with a little acidity, a little natural sweetness and that you chill it. So it’s going to be like a fire hose on your palate and calm it down. Otherwise you’re adding fuel to the fire. So I would go with those kinds of wines with that.
Matt Cundill (36:30):
So the Shiraz I was pairing it with was a big mistake.
Natalie MacLean (36:33):
It’s okay if it’s not high alcohol. Shiraz is smooth, so that’s good. It’s not tannic. And if you’re a dedicated red wine lover, then a smooth red is your way to go. It might taste like heat on heat depending on the Shiraz.
Matt Cundill (36:47):
Why did you start a podcast?
Natalie MacLean (36:49):
Because I wanted to be even nosier than I already am, and I’m an introvert, so I need an excuse to talk to people, and this allows me to contact just about anybody in the wine world or adjacent fields like food and travel and so on and say, hey, come talk to me for an hour on my podcast. And I get to ask them impertinent questions that I would never ask at a dinner party. I get to pry into their lives the way I can when I travel for wine and I meet the most interesting thought provoking people in the world because again, I think wine can teach you about the world, and you can see it through the rose colored glasses. So that’s what I love. I love the art of interviewing too. I listen to people like Larry King or old recordings of Larry King or other interviewers just to see how they handle what is the question beyond the next question, how do they dig, but still not turn off the interviewee? How do they make themselves surrogates for the listener who can’t be there and wants you to ask that question? So I just love the whole art of interviewing as well, and you’re doing a good job, Matt.
Matt Cundill (37:59):
Thanks. I love interviewing. My favorite, by the way, is Terry Gross from NPR.
Natalie MacLean (38:04):
Oh, yes. Yes. She’s a perfectionist.
Matt Cundill (38:07):
Yeah, She spoke at podcast movement one year.
Natalie MacLean (38:09):
Wow.
Matt Cundill (38:09):
She did, and she told me everything I needed to know. I’d already done a lot of interviews. I’ve interviewed Mick Jagger. I’ve interviewed just endless people, just every rockstar, you name them. But yeah, I mean, again, it started, it starts out, we’re going to talk about this and it winds up being, now we’re doing armpit farts. Terry Gross. No, I was doing it with a band once, but I do think the two best interviewers out there are Howard Stern and Terry Gross.
Natalie MacLean (38:35):
Yes. I listened to Howard Stern, even though I am not aligned with a lot of his views, but man, he knows how to give a good interview.
Matt Cundill (38:43):
It’s out there from a few years ago in the book. Him, the two of them interviewed each other. She interviewed him. It was gold. Oh, I got to
Natalie MacLean (38:49):
Look for that. Yeah.
Matt Cundill (38:51):
Who was your favorite interview?
Natalie MacLean (38:52):
So many, but I love the thought provoking conversation I had with Randall Graham of Bonnie Dune in California and Charles back of Fairview Wines. Also goats do Rome in South Africa also, Anne Sperling. There’s so many, but I guess what they do is they tell stories, and of course, that’s how we learn. That’s how we remember things. That goes straight into, I think it taps into our memory, our emotions. The majority of people I interview on my podcast are writers writing about wine or food because they’re storytellers. Some wine makers are, I’m going to get in trouble. Wine makers listen to this. But anyway, but I don’t want to talk to someone about the differences between Hungarian American and French Oak or the tightness of the grains. I want to know stories that will illuminate the world of wine, whether it’s drinking it, appreciating it, traveling to those regions, whatever, all the aspect, everything that goes on around and inside the glass without getting technical. So those people just, they did that. They dove into stories.
Matt Cundill (39:58):
Natalie, thanks so much for telling me all about wine.
Natalie MacLean (40:02):
Oh, cheers, Matt. You can call me anytime. I think of me as your, well, if not your Venus Agon aunt, then your Red Nose superhero. I’m here for you.
(40:17):
Well, there you have it. I hope you enjoyed our chats with Scott and Mike. In the show notes, you’ll find the full transcript of my conversations with them, links to their websites and podcasts, the video versions of these conversations on Facebook and YouTube live, and where you can order my book online now, no matter where you live, you can also find a link to take a free online food and wine pairing class with me called The Five Wine and Food Pairing Mistakes That Can Ruin Your Dinner and How to Fix Them [email protected] slash class. That’s all in the show [email protected] slash 2 7 2. Email me if you have a sip tip question or if you’ve read my book or are in the process of reading it at Natalie, at natalie mclean.com. If you have any suggestions on how to improve this podcast or guests I should interview, please let me know. I’d love to hear from you. If you missed episode 10, go back and take a listen. It’s all about special wines for Valentine’s Day. I’ll share a short clip with you now to wet your appetite.
(41:22):
The research firm Cyber Pulses found that 59% of women ages 21 to 39 wish their sweethearts would give them wine, not candy on Valentine’s Day and London. UK’s Sunday Times reported that wine tastings rank above all other venues for finding a date. The reason wine means spending time together, in fact, I can’t think of an unromantic wine. However, when it comes to choosing the wines to celebrate Valentine’s Day, there are certain bottles that hold a special place in my heart. These are delicious wines that I can depend on year after year, and dependability and loyalty count for a lot when it comes to both wine and love.
(42:20):
You won’t want to miss next week when we chat with Raymond Blake, one of Ireland’s leading wine writers, who is also the author of Breakfast and Burgundy, a hungry Irishman in the belly of France, coat do the wines and winemakers of the hard, burgundy and wine talk, an enthusiast’s take on the people, places, the grapes and the styles we’re talking, of course, burgundy and Pinot Noir. If you like this episode or learn something from it, please email or tell one friend about it this week, especially someone who’d be interested in learning more about the wine pairings that we discussed and the tips about the sommelier and other stories. It’s easy to find my podcast. Just tell them to search for Natalie McLean Wine on their favorite podcast app. Thank you for taking the time to join me here. I hope something great is in your glass this week. Perhaps a wine that pairs perfectly with melt in your mouth, chocolate. You don’t want to miss one juicy episode of this podcast, especially the secret full bodied bonus episodes that I don’t announce on social media. So subscribe for free now at natalie mclean.com/subscribe. Meet me here next week. Cheers.
