Blending Biodynamics and Suspense with Jo Penn Author of Blood Vintage

Natalie MacLean
Oct2nd

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Introduction

Why is biodynamic viticulture sometimes associated with dark magic or the occult? Why is using wine in religious rituals as a sacrament considered normal for many people, but taking it beyond that is not? Why are wines from England becoming increasingly popular?

In this episode of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, I’m chatting with Jo Penn, the New York Times and USA Today bestselling author, about her latest novel, Blood Vintage, set in an English vineyard.

You can find the wines we discussed here.

 

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Highlights

  • What were the most memorable aspects of the Pinot Noir tours Jo attended in South Otago while living in New Zealand?
  • Which New Zealand foods pair best with their Pinot Noirs?
  • What is Jo’s new book, Blood Vintage, about?
  • Which wines would Jo and I pair with Blood Vintage?
  • How did Jo find the inspiration for writing Blood Vintage?
  • What’s behind the rise of English wines?
  • How did a high school performance of Euripides’ “The Bacchae” influence Jo’s writing of Blood Vintage?
  • What are some of the ways that people can get injured or die working in a vineyard?
  • What did Jo learn about biodynamic winemaking from visiting Limeburn Hill Vineyard?
  • Why is biodynamic winemaking sometimes associated with the occult?
  • How might you experience the differences between the taste of a biodynamic wine versus a conventionally produced wine?
  • What was the most surprising thing Jo learned about winemaking while writing Blood Vintage?

 

Key Takeaways

  • Why is biodynamic viticulture sometimes associated with dark magic or the occult?
    • Jo shares with us her experience visiting a biodynamic vineyard where they used various preparations made from the animal stomachs, intestines, and skulls, as well as plants like Yarrow and chamomile. So it’s all a contained ecosystem. Then they buried the cow horns in the winter, preferably under running water to create compost. They added that to a dynamizer to turn it into tea that they sprayed on either the roots or the leaves. Some people hear about these practices and think they’re strange. Others view the vineyard as an ecosystem where they’re trying to infuse a sense of place into every single drop of the wine.
  • Why is using wine in religious rituals as a sacrament considered normal for many people, but taking it beyond that is not?
    • Jo explains that in both Christianity and Judaism, wine is used as a religious sacrament, but taking it further to a different plane of consciousness, like some of the ancient Celtic celebrations tied to nature and fertility she explores in the book, is often considered outside the norm. Of course, Jo imbues this with her wonderfully vivid imagination and writing to involve more frenzied, darker notions of sacrifice.
  • Why are wines from England becoming increasingly popular?
    • Jo observes that climate change has made the south of England similar to the Champagne region in France in terms of the warmth needed to ripen grapes. The UK now produces about 8 to 10 million bottles a year from 800 vineyards. English sparkling wines are winning the awards, and in many blind tastings, they’re often placing ahead of French bibblies. Champagne producers are also buying English vineyards.

 

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One of the benefits of climate change might mean more English wine. - Jo Penn Jo Penn Click to tweet

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Using wine in religious rituals as a sacrament is normal for most people. - Jo Penn Jo Penn Click to tweet

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There’s this romance about, oh, when I get rich, I’ll just have a vineyard, but it’s so much work. - Jo Penn Jo Penn Click to tweet

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With biodynamics, we think about how we feed the land to make the land then feed us. - Jo Penn Jo Penn Click to tweet

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At the end of the day, it’s about having a glass of wine with a friend or as part of a group. - Jo Penn Jo Penn Click to tweet

 

About Jo Penn

Jo Penn is an award-winning New York Times and USA Today bestselling author of horror, thrillers, dark fantasy, crime, and travel memoirs, as well as short stories. She’s also an award-winning podcaster. She has a Master’s in Theology from the University of Oxford. Her latest novel is Blood Vintage, a folk horror story set in an English vineyard.

 

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  • The new audio edition of Red, White and Drunk All Over: A Wine-Soaked Journey from Grape to Glass is now available on Amazon.ca, Amazon.com and other country-specific Amazon sites; iTunes.ca, iTunes.com and other country-specific iTunes sites; Audible.ca and Audible.com.

 

Transcript

Natalie MacLean 00:00:00 Why is biodynamic viticulture sometimes associated with dark magic or the occult? Why is using wine in religious rituals as a sacrament considered normal for many people But taking it beyond that is not? And why are wines from England becoming increasingly popular? In today’s episode, you’ll hear the stories and tips that answer those questions in our chat with Jo Penn, The New York Times and USA today bestselling author about her latest novel, Blood Vintage, set in an English vineyard. I just finished reading it and I absolutely loved it. By the end of our conversation, you’ll also discover some of the most memorable aspects of Jo’s Pinot Noir tours in South Otago, New Zealand. Which New Zealand dishes pair best with the country’s Pinot Noirs. What vineyard life is really like behind the romance of sun dappled vines. How Jo found inspiration for writing Blood Vintage, especially the wine themes and setting some of the dangers of working in a vineyard. The differences between the taste of a biodynamic wine versus a conventionally produced wine. And the most surprising thing Jo learned about winemaking while writing the book. All right, let’s dive in.

Natalie MacLean 00:01:15 Do you have a thirst to learn about wine? Do you love stories about wonderfully obsessive people, hauntingly beautiful places, and amusingly awkward social situations? Well, that’s the blend here on the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast. I’m your host, Natalie MacLean, and each week I share with you unfiltered conversations with celebrities in the wine world, as well as confessions from my own tipsy journey as I write my third book on this subject. I’m so glad you’re here. Now pass me that bottle, please, and let’s get started.

Welcome to episode 305. Jo Penn launched her new book, Blood Vintage, yesterday via a Kickstarter, which is a crowdfunding platform that many people associate with music, technology and other projects. However, it’s becoming increasingly important for books as well, especially for authors who are more entrepreneurial like Jo. Her Kickstarter campaign runs from October 1st to the 15th, so if you’re curious about it and or her book, check it out before it closes. I’ve put a link in the show notes to her Kickstarter.

Speaking of books, if you’re reading the paperback or e-book of Wine Witch on Fire: Rising from the Ashes of Divorce, Defamation, and Drinking Too Much or listening to the audiobook, I’d love to hear from you and [email protected]. I’ll put a link in the show notes to all retailers worldwide at nataliemaclean.com/305.  In personal news, I’m excited to share with you that I’m a finalist for the 2025 International Wine and Spirits Competition Wine Communicator of the Year Trophy. This is the award that Jancis Robinson and other wine writers I admire have won previously, and it recognizes excellence in wine, education and storytelling across various media platforms like this podcast. There are four others nominated from the US, UK, Argentina and Australia, so it is an honour to represent Canada in what I believe is the world’s best competition for both wines and spirits to be recognised globally. I also appreciate the comments from the judges, “Natalie is very recognized and very accomplished. Her podcast, Unreserved Wine Talk,  has amassed a large audience She continues to inspire enthusiasts through her books, media appearances and innovative digital platforms. Her body of work really speaks for itself”. So the winner will be announced November 12th in London, England. Thank you so much for supporting this podcast. This nomination is as much yours as it is mine.

Okay, on with the show. Jo Penn is an award winning New York Times and USA today best selling author of horror thrillers, dark fantasy, crime and travel memoir, as well as short stories. She’s also an award winning podcaster. Her podcast is amazing, by the way, The Creative Pen. I listen to it every week and you should too, if you have any interest in books or reading. She has a Master’s in Rheology from the University of Oxford, and her latest novel is called Blood Vintage. It’s a folk horror story set in an English vineyard. I just finished reading it. It’s wonderful. Jo. She just held it up so great. Jo, you’re joining us now from your home in Bath, which is nestled in the beautiful countryside of Somerset, England, about 100 miles west of London. Welcome, Jo. I’m so glad you’re here with us.

Jo Penn 00:05:02 Oh, I am so excited. Natalie. An excuse to drink wine with a friend. But I should also, because I’m obviously English. We pronounce it bath. I know that’s hard for you. North Americans.

Natalie MacLean 00:05:12 Know that.

Jo Penn 00:05:13 Yes, Canadians. I will have a bath tonight.

Natalie MacLean 00:05:16 I think with some wine. I’m fearing into Australian there. Hahaha. That’s great. Thank you. All right, so before we dive into your book, tell us about the Pinot Noir tours and festivals in the South Otago region that you attended while you were living in New Zealand.

Jo Penn 00:05:32 I’m going to go with South Otago again with the I don’t have a bath in South Otago. South Otago rain in Spain turned out to.

Natalie MacLean 00:05:40 Be in an enunciation lesson.

Jo Penn 00:05:43 Okay, yes indeed. But no. So I lived in New Zealand for six years, so 2000 to 2006. It was one of those mid 20s. Go backpacking, fall in love, stay. Get married, get divorced, get remarried.

Jo Penn 00:05:56 You understand? All busy? Yes, exactly. But I did a Pinot noir tour in South Otago. And it is quite a famous region for the Pinot noir grape. I wanted to tell you about two particular vineyards. One is called Mount Difficulty, which is a wonderful name in that region because the mountains, the Remarkables, are really high and it’s pretty hardcore walking region, skiing region in the winter. And the other one is called Peregrine Vineyard. It’s a beautiful region for the nature, but Peregrine have created this incredible architecture. The roof of the winery is shaped like the wings of a peregrine, and I particularly remember that tour. And for people who don’t know, it’s out of Queenstown in the very south east of New Zealand. So it’s really far south, gets very cold in the winter, but highly recommended. And you’re the best at pairing. But I was going to put it with New Zealand wild venison, which is something you get a lot of around there. But have you? You’ve tasted the New Zealand peanuts.

Jo Penn 00:06:57 Oh, I love them.

Natalie MacLean 00:06:58 New Zealand is better known for Sauvignon blanc, but I think the Pinot noirs are even more spectacular. They’ve got this nervy, edgy acidity that I love. It just almost like the wine vibrates in your glass and it’s so food friendly because it it is to wine assaults to food. It brings forward flavour. But gorgeous wines. Absolutely.

Jo Penn 00:07:15 Since you mentioned the Sauvignon Blanc, I also wanted to recommend a very specific New Zealand oyster as a pairing with that which is the bluff oyster. And I think you like oysters, right?

Natalie MacLean 00:07:26 I write about them. Yeah, that’s the one thing I can’t get past. Just it’s a texture thing. But anyway, for.

Jo Penn 00:07:32 People who love oysters, who are listening, I love oysters. I’ve eaten oysters all over the world. And the bluff oyster in New Zealand has a very short winter season, but it is incredible to me. It is the best. And I have a vivid memory of drinking Sauvignon Blanc with a bluff oyster, a hole maybe doesn’t.

Jo Penn 00:07:49 Oysters on the lake there. Lake Wakatipu in the winter sun. So I highly recommend that pairing as well. And it’s very hard to get them anywhere else in the world.

Natalie MacLean 00:07:57 Oh well, I’ll have to make a note of that. My husband likes the oysters, so. Well, there we go. We’ll do that. I love that great evocative image there that carries through with your book. So let’s set the stage for your book, Blood Vintage. You did a serious amount of research into biodynamic winemaking and winemaking generally. So before we talk about that, maybe share the overview of the book story with us, please.

Jo Penn 00:08:21 This is the back of the book Blood Vintage. This is a special edition, so I shall read it for you. Please. The perfect vintage requires the darkest sacrifice. Who? In the rolling hills of Somerset, England, an ancient evil ripens alongside the grapes of standing stone cellars. Rebecca Langford never expected her architectural career to lead to the secluded rural village of Wine Bridge Hollow.

Jo Penn 00:08:48 But after a violent clash with eco activists, she flees the chaos of London, desperate for a new start. She seeks refuge at standing Stone cellars, a vineyard renowned for its award winning wines and mysterious history. Nestled in the shadow of ancient oaks and standing stones that have watched over the land for millennia. But this vineyard is no sanctuary. From the primal fires of Beltane to the chilling shadow of Selwyn, Rebecca finds herself ensnared in an ancient cycle of sacrifice and rebirth. The disappearance of her fellow workers amidst evidence of blood rites forces her to confront a horrifying truth. Standing stones exceptional vintage is nourished by more than just sunlight and soil. As the veil between worlds grows thin, Rebecca must make an impossible choice embrace the dark legacy of the vineyard and secure her place amongst its guardians. Or risk becoming the next offering to the insatiable horned God that demands his due. Blood vintage is an atmospheric descent into folk horror, where the line between sacred and profane blurs with each sip of wine. Lose yourself in a world where pagan ritual and modern ambitions collide.

Jo Penn 00:10:14 And discover the terrible price of belonging. In a place where the very earth demands blood.

Natalie MacLean 00:10:21 Oh, I love that. That is such a great description.

Jo Penn 00:10:25 That.

Natalie MacLean 00:10:26 Really captures it. So atmospheric, so dark and brooding. And yet bonus for us who love wine. Wine is running right through it is woven into it. Okay, so before we dive into that, I’m itching to get there. You selected a wine to pair with your book, as have I, so let’s hear about yours first. What is it?

Jo Penn 00:10:46 Yes, the blood vintage itself would be the sole wine. Wine from Lyme Byrne Hill vineyard. We’re going to come back to that, but that’s really hard to get. So I’ve gone with the Pinot rosé from Worcester Valley, which is where the original idea came from. And I love a rosé. And we’ll obviously talk about where this has come from. I have my glass ready. This has been chilled, but yes, we’re just a Valley Pinot rosé and I read about it.

Jo Penn 00:11:12 It’s 100% Pinot. Precocious. So the early, early Pinot noir.

Natalie MacLean 00:11:18 Oh, lovely. I love a rosé. I’ve chosen a more brooding, darker wine for you and your book. This is from Italy because we just don’t get many English wines here in Canada. But this one, the label has a woman and her hair is inflamed because fire is a metaphor, but also the sun and stars are all around her. It comes from the Donna Fogarty Winery in Italy, which means Fugitive Woman on the run, which I think Rebecca is a little bit from her architectural career, and she’s escaping out to the countryside with the vineyards. Anyway, lots of metaphors, but I love the labels on this, so let’s have a sip to get going. Hear, hear the sound effects. Cheers. Oh, you have a goblet there? Yes.

Jo Penn 00:12:00 Oh, yes, my special glass. I bought this 20 years ago. I was in Prague with a friend of mine. It was the winter and I saw these glasses.

Jo Penn 00:12:09 I drank a lot more red wine at the time and I was like, this is perfect. I love these, and this is one of those times where, you know, I’m backpacking. Do I really want to take glass anywhere? But we had such a lovely trip and these memories of drinking together are important. So that’s the story of the glass. I know it’s not perfect for rosé. We’re not going to get technical.

Natalie MacLean 00:12:28 Here, but. But for those who want to know, an ideal glass is clear and has a big enough bowl so that you can swirl it. But I love the goblet. Very atmospheric, very apt, very blood.

Jo Penn 00:12:40 Vintage. Very blood.

Natalie MacLean 00:12:40 Vintage. Very gothic. That’s lovely. Okay. Tell us what drew you to this story in the first place. Like, where were you? Oh, wait.

Jo Penn 00:12:49 I haven’t had a sip. Yes.

Natalie MacLean 00:12:50 Whet your whistle.

Jo Penn 00:12:51 Oh, it’s really tasty. It’s very strawberry. You’re much better at these tasting notes than I am, but I can definitely taste strawberry strawberries.

Natalie MacLean 00:12:58 Absolutely. That is the essence of a good fresh rosé. It makes your mouth water. It’s like feel berries, sunshine, and the opposite of the mood of your book. Although your book is not a downer, it’s just very gripping and thrilling. So tell us more about where this idea came to you.

Jo Penn 00:13:14 Yes. Would you say Valley is a small vineyard? Most of the vineyards in England are smaller, although they’re getting bought up as many of these things do. But this is a small one, and the Cotswolds is in the south west of England. It’s an Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty, which is like a distinction of certain areas, and you would absolutely recognise it. It’s the kind of chocolate box England with the green rolling hills, lots of green because it does rain but also sunnier. There are lots of stone In buildings, cows wandering around. It’s pastoral, but also enough hills and the Worcester Valley. I went with my dad and my stepmom and my husband drove. So my dad and my stepmom and I drank and we went to the vineyard.

Jo Penn 00:13:56 So it was July. So the grapes were the tiny little green bits, so they weren’t full yet. Excuse my language, which is not perfect. Okay, but you know what? I’m a fiction.

Natalie MacLean 00:14:06 Writer, not a wine writer, so that’s all good.

Jo Penn 00:14:08 I describe it better in writing than words and speaking words. But anyway, so we went to we went there for a wine tour, and one of the first things they said was this area of vines was south facing and it was beautiful. And they told us about the frost candles, the bushes, I think they’re they’re called wear in the winter. And he the vision in my mind, whether in the winter they get these beeswax. They’re very good for the environment and things. They put them in amongst the vines to stop the frost and to stop them killing the bud break. I think it’s called. And I was like, oh my goodness. In my mind I could see the frost candles and I had to story going off in my brain.

Jo Penn 00:14:45 So that was one little thing. And then we went. Then we walked past these, the crushing equipment and the bottling thing where they do the pet now I think it is, and they turn the bottles and I was like, oh, that could explode. And and then they told us about this ancient part of the vineyard that they own where we couldn’t visit. And I was like, oh, I got to know about that. And it turns out so this is owned by a female vineyard owner, Fiona. And she found a mention of this area in the Domesday Book. So if you don’t know, it’s an 11th century document that was essentially a tax record. So they could tax people on land. And there’s a vineyard in this area from the 11th century. And so I was like, oh my goodness. And then of course, the Romans brought vines to this area. So in my mind I was like, there has to be some ancient ritual in this place. So that’s where it came from.

Jo Penn 00:15:39 Oh, that’s.

Natalie MacLean 00:15:39 Marvelous. And you’re already painting a picture with all those visuals and the mystery, the history, everything. So say a little bit more before we continue about the rise of English wines. Of course, with climate change, a lot of marginal wine growing regions are getting warmer and therefore it’s easier to ripen grapes. As I said, we rarely get them here in Canada yet hopefully we will in the future. But how large is the industry like? Approximately what? What’s going on?

Jo Penn 00:16:05 Yeah. What’s going on basically, as you mentioned, climate change. So they told us this in the Wood Chester tour. Is that the climate here now in the south of England is the same as the champagne growing region in France. So it’s English sparkling wines that are winning the awards. And in fact, in blind tastings, they’re often beating out some of those French sparkling. And what’s also interesting is French vineyards are buying up land and vineyards here in England because there’s obviously climate change happens, then looking for new vineyards.

Jo Penn 00:16:36 But I did look up the numbers. It’s 8 to 10 million bottles out of the UK and around 800 tiny vineyards. And I looked up Canada. So you’re 60 to 70 million bottles. So we’re like a sixth of the Canadian. But obviously you’ve got a much, much bigger country.

Natalie MacLean 00:16:51 We do. Yes.

Jo Penn 00:16:53 But compared to New Zealand, obviously New Zealand is a tiny country and has a huge wine industry and a lot bigger than both Canada and England. So I’m hoping that over time, one of the benefits of climate change might mean more English wine. But now if you go to English pubs, you wine bars, you can buy English wine. It’s on the supermarket, so I hope that you can get some over there.

Natalie MacLean 00:17:15 That’d be great. And I’ve heard they’re even planting vineyards in Scotland these days.

Jo Penn 00:17:20 So yes, there’s one in a biodynamic vineyard in Wales as well, near where I am. But just to come back on the Romans, because I think this is really interesting for people and why the spirit of the land is so important here, is that the Romans brought vines here between 43 A.D. and 400 A.D., 1602 2000 years ago.

Jo Penn 00:17:39 And in fact, where I live in bath, it used to be called Aqua Solis. We have A2000 year old Roman baths in the center of my city. So the land where I stand and where these vines are and where the book is set are kind of this ancient history that’s now coming back to life. Yeah.

Natalie MacLean 00:17:55 All the ancient relics being discovered and buried in some of these vineyards and so on. So back to your story at Winchester Valley. So they mentioned you couldn’t go in that part of the vineyard, which of course immediately sparked curiosity and probably the desire to go in that vineyard. You said they also mentioned, or was it them that mentioned that story of not being able to go in there? It reminded you of a performance of Euripides the Bacchus. Maybe. Tell us about that. What? The connection.

Jo Penn 00:18:28 Yeah. So that night and of course, my dad and me and my stepmom, we drank a few of the wines we tasted in a proper way and no spitting. And that night I remembered.

Jo Penn 00:18:38 It’s funny how these memories come back to you. So a performance of The Bacchae, which is an ancient Greek tragedy again, many thousands of years old. And in it the and of course, Bacchus, Greek god of wine and fertility and all these kind of wonderful things. And in it the worshipers of Bacchus in a sort of right. They go mad, essentially, and they rip apart a man instead of a deer. And this kind of gave me another thought about these sort of pagan rituals that go on around wine. And again, in our Western society we have Christianity and Judaism, both of which use wine in religious ritual. So using wine in religious ritual as a sacrament is normal for most people. But in terms of taking it further into where you are on a different plane of consciousness, I just thought this was a super interesting thing. Also, the kind of the fertility stuff and the vines and wild nature. I love wild nature. I think it’s too fascinating. You’ve been in these vineyards all over the place, and it’s the wild sections that I find really interesting, because they might be all manicured in places.

Jo Penn 00:19:47 And then there’s these kind of bits that are fascinating, and it’s.

Natalie MacLean 00:19:50 A perfect symbol for the balance in life between restraint and thinking, in the wildness, fairness of nature and the body, the mind versus the body. All the metaphors are working for you in this one. That’s fantastic. And where were you watching that play? It was back when you were a high school student, right?

Jo Penn 00:20:09 Yes. And I think that’s why it’s funny when these memories emerge and there’s this is a kind of human brain thing, isn’t it? You’re some you think about something and it sparks something else. And yeah, I studied Greek, ancient Greek and Latin and classical civilization when I was 14 to 16. And then I went on and did theology, and reading ancient Greek was very useful. But we went to see this performance at an actual replica of a Roman amphitheatre with a proper and it was performed in ancient Greek, and I still remember it very vividly. It was in another school, and it’s one of those occasions where you think, if I was watching it now, I’d be very cynical and I’d be like, that’s a bit crap, like schoolkids doing a performance.

Jo Penn 00:20:47 But in my mind and in my memory, it was so powerful. And to see what happened in this ceremony. And so it really it stuck in my mind. And I have another podcast called Books and Travel, and I interviewed a vintner, Caro Fili, from Chateau Fili in France, and she was telling me about all the different ways that you can get injured and die in a vineyard. And that kind of came into my head as well. All these things mushed together. You’re a writer and they pop in one thing to.

Natalie MacLean 00:21:17 Another, and wine itself is it’s all about the smell. And so smell is tied to memory. It’s going to touch off like a, like a spark point of bring you right back to a place or a time or a it’s very powerful. Okay. You just said she was talking about all the ways to die. So wine lovers are also have grim imaginations, especially if we’ve got a bad bottle or something. But tell us about all the ways you discussed with Caro about the ways you could die in a vineyard, so we know what to watch out for in our next trip to a winery.

Jo Penn 00:21:46 I think she was talking about how people it was the idea of blood. It was like, you can get cut on quite a lot of these equipments, pruning things and the machines that go through the vineyard, if you use them and the the shot, the glass, even the glass and shattering of glass, the bottles of wine can.

Natalie MacLean 00:22:03 Explode in the cellar. Yes.

Jo Penn 00:22:04 And in fact, that was one of my rewrites was the exploding, which you missed out on. But the rewrites was over. The exploding of the wine that gets turned in the riddling rack. I think it’s called, isn’t it? Yeah. Which is cool. And then in those wine barrel rooms, one of those could slip. And there’s some of those are super heavy barrels. You could definitely get crushed absolutely under.

Natalie MacLean 00:22:24 And people have been known to fall into that and not drown, but actually asphyxiate because it’s all CO2 and it’s quite deadly to be around a winery. I never thought about it that way. But you’re right.

Natalie MacLean 00:22:35 And the bottles they are, they can explode because they’re under pressure. The bubbles create the pressure. It’s £90 per square inch. It’s the equal to city bus tires, and it’s going under a second fermentation, adding more and more pressure under that glass. So if that’s not solid, you get exploding bottles for sure.

Jo Penn 00:22:55 Yeah. And it’s very interesting because obviously I’m an author and I sit in my desk and I don’t have much that can kill me in my day job. But I just love researching all this. And I think one of the things that really came home to me in doing this research and going to vineyards was it’s such hard work, like, it’s seriously hard work. There’s this romance about, oh, when I get rich, I’ll just have a vineyard or whatever, and it’s so much work. And then also so much investment in all the equipment and all the things you need. And I think that really impressed upon me how difficult it was, but also how tired these people must be during the harvest time and all that.

Jo Penn 00:23:29 And Yes. Be careful out there in your vineyard.

Natalie MacLean 00:23:32 Absolutely. And we share a personal trainer. So this is just bringing to mind the hard, physical work of a vineyard. I always thought you could design a workout program around wine so you’d have, like, abs of stainless steel. I don’t know, like.

Jo Penn 00:23:45 I’ve got a bit of a workout here on my arm.

Natalie MacLean 00:23:47 That’s right, that’s deltoids. Right. Thanks, Dan. But. So you live an hour’s drive away from one of our one of England’s few biodynamic vineyards. Maybe. Tell us about that.

Jo Penn 00:23:58 So this is really special Lyman Hill Vineyard biodynamic and it is certified. And I know you’ve had someone on the show to talk about Biodynamics quite recently. In fact, I was listening to that earlier. But essentially this is in the Tube Magna area near me. It’s again, it’s limestone. The Romans were working in that area. So again, very ancient land. It has 3000 vines hand planted. It’s run by a couple, Robyn Snowdon and Georgina Harvey.

Jo Penn 00:24:26 And I went there and spent a day there. I did a course on biodynamic wine growing and it was full of wine people. And then I was like, I’m writing a novel. And Robin was very patient with me, and especially when I said, oh, where do you bury the bones? He was like, okay, I’ll show you. But I think what’s first of all, there wines are the pet Nat. I think that’s.

Natalie MacLean 00:24:46 Catching on naturalists. So it’s a light fizzy wine. But yeah, it’s in the bottle.

Jo Penn 00:24:51 So it’s fermented in the bottle. And they’re wines. They have three wines named after those festivals. So Beltane Llamas and SA wine. So these are Celtic festivals. And so I sort and ones are white orange ones the rosé. And one is the, the red. The sa win the winter wine which I think is Pinot noir. And so I went there and I saw these wines and that gave me ideas. But then also they explained their what Biodynamics is and the Rudolf Steiner method of really just the holistic view of the vineyard as a contained ecosystem.

Jo Penn 00:25:24 And they were taking this very seriously. So they had wild bees because it’s all the natural yeast in the area. There’s no extra stuff. They do. They have these little sheep that run around eating things. Wild flowers.

Jo Penn 00:25:38 Yes.

Jo Penn 00:25:39 And I was just I was super impressed by, again, how much work this is, but also the ecosystem of their land. It was beautiful. It was so beautiful. A wonderful day and again, the sort of romantic idea. But he demonstrated the bio, the dynamism they call it, which is a stirring thing, where they stir for a minute in one direction and then the other direction. And he had the books out with all the sun and the moon and the planting and the energies that go into it. And this was all just fascinating to me. That is Lime Burn Hill Vineyard, and they do tours and courses and things. Again, their wine is very hard to get. It served a lot of independent restaurants, fairs and things like that, but they’re fascinating and I should say there was no sacrifice.

Natalie MacLean 00:26:26 No blood sacrifice, no bones. You can’t go into that part of the vineyard. That’s where our former tasting stuff room people are buried.

Jo Penn 00:26:35 But they did honor the land. They had an area which was a kind of sacred area, a sacred grove. And obviously there is the place where they bury the horns, and there are some preparations with skulls and things. So it’s just some weird stuff going on in Biodynamics. Right. But fascinating.

Natalie MacLean 00:26:52 Yeah, absolutely. So just say a little bit more if you remember it from your course. They, they bury the bull’s horns and the skull and put things in it. Yes.

Jo Penn 00:27:02 So I do remember. So preparation 500 is the cow horn. So each of these preparations are made from the animal parts. So stomachs bladders, intestines skull. And then you fill them with manure or certain plants like yarrow, camomile different things. And that should be growing on your land as well. So it’s all a contained ecosystem, and then you basically bury the horns in the winter, and then all the skulls you put in this wet place, like under some running water.

Jo Penn 00:27:34 And then after a certain amount of time, it gives you some stuff, like some compost, and then you put that in the dynamite and you turn it into a tea, and then you spray it on the either the roots or the leaves or whatever you need. They also use quartz. And if anyone listening is, oh, she’s butchering this. What’s so fascinating is you might think, oh, that is just weird, like strange stuff. But when you think about the vineyard as an ecosystem and the real terroir, the sense of place that they’re trying to just put into every single drop of the wine, why would you bring in something from the outside? And then the natural way of making these sprays and these treatments? And Robin was saying very much that you you go out and you get to know the vine and you look at it and you’re like, okay, this needs some more moisture, or this needs some more whatever. and then you use the preparation that will go with what the land needs, and it can take a long time to get the land back up to what it should be.

Jo Penn 00:28:32 In fact, he said there were no no worms in the soil when they.

Natalie MacLean 00:28:36 Bought, so the microbial life was just dead.

Jo Penn 00:28:39 Yeah, exactly. And it took them several years, although I think he said it was quicker than expected until the earth is just chock full of worms.

Natalie MacLean 00:28:47 It’s like the vines had to go to rehab and get off their drugs, their fungicides and pesticides and to.

Jo Penn 00:28:53 Yes.

Jo Penn 00:28:53 That’s the thing. And they planted that vineyard. So I guess they got the vines and put them there. But I just thought that was fascinating, because the idea of the land itself is what I’m so fascinated with, how we feed the land to make the land, then feed us. And this is something that just really interests me.

Natalie MacLean 00:29:10 Absolutely. And for whatever you believe with the astrological signs and the some of the aspects of Biodynamics, I think it can’t be faulted overall, because it means that those who engage in those practices really have to pay attention, as you say, to the land, they really have to look at each vine almost individually and say, what does this need? What? And the more closely you pay attention to vines and winemaking, the better your wine will be, as opposed to mass harvests and mass spraying like some vineyards that are not even organic, which is a step down from Biodynamics are sprayed 25 times or more over the course of just one vintage.

Natalie MacLean 00:29:49 I’m all for biodynamics.

Jo Penn 00:29:51 I did want to ask you on this because I did taste. I did some tasting, I was driving, so I did spit and it was very unusual. It was a very unusual wine. And of course every single bottle is different. Not just every vintage is different. And given you’re a better taster than me, how would you describe the difference between a biodynamic tasting wine and like the wine I’ve got here, the wood Chester, which is not.

Natalie MacLean 00:30:13 So you have regular wines and then you have organic, you have biodynamic and everything that organic wines are biodynamic must be. Plus, there’s not going to be as many sulfites a preservative in organic or biodynamic as regular wines. But I think we exaggerate just how sensitive we might be. It’s only about 5% of the population that are really sensitive to sulfites, and a glass of orange juice, on average, has more sulfites on average than a whole bottle of wine. So one major difference, though, will be the sulfate content.

Natalie MacLean 00:30:46 But apart from that, I think when a blind tasting, I’m not sure that I could say that’s a biodynamic. And that’s unless I was comparing a really mass commercial market kind of wine that’s made breakfast cereal. But then they’re going to be at two very different price points, and you’d have to control for all the factors. Yeah, you’d have to have the same grape, the same region and compare this vineyard wine biodynamic to that one. That is not. But so I doubt unless the that I could really differentiate them other than I would hope that biodynamics they can be funky and a little weird sometimes. And then you start to veer into another category that’s not defined at all, at least legally natural and raw wines which are not the same, just like all stallions or horses, but not all horses or stallions I can pick out sometimes more obviously what is a natural wine because it will have no zero preservatives and just yeah, sometimes it can get quite funky.

Jo Penn 00:31:47 Yeah, I do remember it as being interesting or funky.

Jo Penn 00:31:50 Like you say. I think you have to be very open to new things to try that. It’s not, oh, here’s my favorite rosé, or here’s my bottle of prosecco on a Saturday night or whatever. That’s not that kind of wine, but I did. Also, I did want to mention a book called Voodoo Vintners by Catherine Cole, which is about Oregon’s biodynamic vineyards, and I use that. Yeah, I use that heavily in my research. And again, fascinated. Fascinating. And the Demeter USA is the certification board, and it’s incredible how high the standard is. There’s a lot of places using Biodynamics, but they’re not certified because it’s such a high standards. I just encourage people because, again, I’m not a taster like you, a super taster, but to try these different wines is very interesting and supports the vineyard, which again, the it’s very hard to have a business as a small vineyard. I think it.

Natalie MacLean 00:32:41 Is there small, generally small family farms and there’s no scale or economy of scale.

Natalie MacLean 00:32:48 There’s a few big conglomerates in each country. But the other thing is that they say on average, organic viticulture costs you 15% more and then biodynamic another 15% on top of that, because you can’t resort to pesticides, fungicides and insecticides. Yeah, it is definitely worth worth seeking them out. Yeah. I’ll say what.

Jo Penn 00:33:07 I was going to say on this. Both these vineyards. So Lime Burn Hill does courses, they do weekends, they do Hindus and stuff like that. But Wood Chester has accommodation as well. So you can stay there actually in the vineyard. And so I think that’s really nice and I enjoy that. It’s I can spend more money in a vineyard by doing activities. So I think that’s actually something to consider. It’s not just you don’t have to just go and do a tasting. You can actually do tours or stay places. So yeah, I enjoy that.

Natalie MacLean 00:33:35 Absolutely. Wine travel is just burgeoning because you, as you say, you can taste the wine, but often there’ll be a restaurant attached to the winery or restaurants locally that’ll do wine and food pairings for you.

Natalie MacLean 00:33:45 But wine tourism, there’s all sorts of things to do, from spas to ballooning to biking to things for the kids. Not the wine, but no, your kids start to develop your tolerance early. I did not mean that. Seriously. Okay, so that’s really interesting. So what was the most surprising thing that you learned about biodynamics or winemaking or wine itself, while you’re writing the book?

Jo Penn 00:34:10 Again, I think I’ll come back to how hard people are working. I think when I read and how badly wrong it can go. I think when I wrote the scene about the frost in the vineyard, I really understood, as I was researching, that this can destroy a huge proportion of a crop, that there are things that can go horribly wrong, that can just destroy the whole thing. And I know that can happen with other farmers, but often other farmers have other crops going on. And these vineyards, they really only have the one. And so it was incredible to me how on a knife edge and how you have to look after them.

Jo Penn 00:34:45 Or it might be, I don’t know, a swarm of insects, or it might be something that a flood. There’s so many things. So yeah, that that was interesting to me. And also again, how much variability, I think as someone who enjoys wine but has perhaps just taken it for granted, like I can just go and get a bottle of rosé or whatever, and then you see the variability between the areas. So again, these vineyards are, you know, about an hour and a half apart in a car. So in the big scheme of things, they’re not that far away, but they’re really very different. So again, that idea of terroir really came home to me. But I certainly am taking viticulture a lot more seriously now than I did before. And I hope in the book it’s not a book for viticulture people, it’s the setting. But I do care very much about my research.

Natalie MacLean 00:35:32 You know, you do it so well. But you’re right. Like people have that dreamy vision of owning a vineyard.

Natalie MacLean 00:35:38 But really it’s fancied up farming. It’s hard work, calloused hands and sunburnt and all the rest of it. It’s not something that is just portrayed on wine labels and wine advertising. It really is grassroots hard work.

Jo Penn 00:35:52 Yeah, the.

Jo Penn 00:35:53 Passion of it is incredible, but also it makes you think a lot more about what wine is. And I know you talk about this, that there’s a lot of myths and there’s a lot of bad stuff that goes on and a lot of amazing stuff, but at the end of the day, it’s like having a glass of wine with a friend or as part of a group or your family, like my family, are drinkers. So wine plays a big part. And in fact, Wood Chester is just down the road. So we do get wine from there. And that’s what it’s about. It’s about the times we have with wine. For most of us whose job it isn’t. But I think that’s what it comes down to, really.

Natalie MacLean 00:36:27 Absolutely. It’s the drink of conversation.

Natalie MacLean 00:36:29 It’s meant to be consumed slowly. It’s why we don’t serve wine and shoot your glasses and just knock it back. Although sometimes maybe you feel in the mood for that. But really it is about communion and joining people together over conversation.

Well, there you have it. I hope you enjoyed our chat with Jo. Here are my takeaways. Number one, why is biodynamic viticulture sometimes associated with dark magic or the occult? Jo shares with us her experience in visiting a biodynamic vineyard, where they used various preparations made from animal stomachs, intestines, skulls, as well as plants like yarrow and chamomile. So it’s all a contained ecosystem. They buried the cow horns in the winter as well as skulls, preferably under running water, to create compost. And then they use that in a dynamite or kind of a stirring pot to turn it into a tea that they spray on either the roots or the leaves. Some people hear about these practices and think they’re kind of strange. Others, like me, view the vineyard as an ecosystem where they’re trying to infuse a sense of place into every single drop of wine.

Natalie MacLean 00:37:42 Number two, why is using wine in religious rituals as a sacrament considered normal for many people but taking it beyond that is not? Jo explains that in both Christianity and Judaism, wine is used as a religious sacrament, but taking it further to a different plane of consciousness –  like some of the ancient Celtic celebrations tied to nature and fertility that she explores in the book –  well that’s often considered outside the norm. Of course, Jo imbues this wonderfully with her vivid imagination, writing in the book to involve more frenzied, darker notions of sacrifice and wine.

And number three, why are wines from England becoming increasingly popular? Jo observes that climate change has made the south of England similar to the Champagne region in France, in terms of the warmth needed to ripen grapes. The UK now produces about 10 million bottles a year from about 800 vineyards. English sparkling wines are winning the awards, and in many blind tastings they’re often placing ahead of French bubbles. Champagne producers are also buying English vineyards as a result.

Natalie MacLean 00:38:50 In the show notes, you’ll find the full transcript of my conversation with Jo, links to her website, books and Kickstarter, the video versions of these conversations on Facebook and YouTube live, and where you can order my book online now no matter where you live. If you missed episode 200, go back and take a listen. I chat about biodynamic winemaking with Valerie Kathawala. I’ll share a short clip with you now to whet your appetite.

Natalie MacLean 00:30: 15 What do you mean by German speaking wines?

Valerie Kathawala 00:39:20 It’s wines from countries where German is either the main language or one of the main languages. More broadly, it’s a certain mindset, a certain shared tradition and values grape varieties, winemaking approaches, geography, climate that these regions Germany, Austria, this little corner of northern Italy and the eastern part of Switzerland all share.

Natalie MacLean  00:39:45 Is there a style that runs through them? Is it like the edgy acidity…

Valerie Kathawala 00:39:52 These are all cool climate regions and acidity is a hallmark native grapes that maybe don’t shine on the international stage quite as brightly.  It’s this commitment to craft and tradition at a very high level, so far less industrial winemaking and far more small growers who’ve been working this way for generations.

Natalie MacLean 00:40:19 You won’t want to miss next week when we continue our chat with Jo. If you liked this episode or learned even one thing from it, please email or tell one friend about the podcast this week, especially someone you know who’d be interested in learning more about biodynamic wines and novel set in a vineyard with a strong wine theme. It’s easy to find my podcast. Just tell them to search for Natalie MacLean Wine on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, their favorite podcast app, or they can listen to the show on my website at nataliemaclean.com/podcast. Email me if you have a sip, tip, question, or if you’ve read my book or are listening to it at [email protected]. In the show notes, you’ll also find a link to take a free online food and wine pairing class with me called The Five Food and Wine Pairing Mistakes That Can Ruin Your Dinner And How To Fix Them Forever at nataliemaclean.com/class.

That is all in the show notes at nataliemaclean.com/305. Thank you for taking the time to join me here. I hope something great is in your glass this week, perhaps a zesty English sparkling wine that would pair perfectly with the novel Blood Vintage.

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