Beyond Eurocentric Wine and Food Pairings + Sonoma’s Hidden Gems with Winemaker Theresa Heredia

Natalie MacLean
Aug21st

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Introduction

Why should you look beyond Eurocentric wine and food pairings? What’s so special about making vineyard-designated wines? How can you get the most out of your next trip to Sonoma County?

In this episode of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, I’m chatting with superstar winemaker Theresa Heredia who has worked for some of California’s most prestigious wineries.

You can find the wines we discussed here.

 

Giveaway

One of you will win a bottle of Gary Farrell wine.

 

How to Win

To qualify, all you have to do is email me at [email protected] and let me know that you’ve posted a review of the podcast.

It takes less than 30 seconds: On your phone, scroll to the bottom here, where the reviews are, and click on “Tap to Rate.”

After that, scroll down a tiny bit more and click on “Write a Review.” That’s it!

I’ll choose one person randomly from those who contact me.

Good luck!

 

Join me on Instagram, Facebook and YouTube Live Video

Join the live-stream video of this conversation on Wednesday at 7 pm eastern on Instagram Live Video, Facebook Live Video or YouTube Live Video.

I’ll be jumping into the comments as we watch it together so that I can answer your questions in real-time.

I want to hear from you! What’s your opinion of what we’re discussing? What takeaways or tips do you love most from this chat? What questions do you have that we didn’t answer?

Want to know when we go live?

Add this to your calendar:

 

 

 

Highlights

  • What’s the difference between making vineyard-designated wines versus blends?
  • What flavours and aromas are imparted by including ripened stems in the fermentation process?
  • How many different types of soil are found in Sonoma County and how did this diversity develop?
  • How do microclimates differ across the wine neighbourhoods of the Russian River Valley and what is their influence on the wine’s characteristics?
  • What makes Chardonnay more of a “survivor” grape compared to other varieties?
  • What are some of the challenges that sustain the low level of diversity in the male-dominated wine industry?
  • How has being a gay woman impacted Theresa’s experience in the wine industry?
  • What can wineries do to be more inclusive towards the LGBTQ+ community?
  • What are Theresa’s top tips for your next visit to Sonoma County and the Gary Farrell winery?
  • Which aspects of making Russian River Selection Pinot Noir are Theresa’s favourites?
  • What can you expect from Gary Farrell Wines Hallberg Vineyard Pinot Noir and Sanford & Benedict Pinot Noir and how do they differ?
  • Which foods would pair best with these three different Gary Farrell wines?
  • Why should we expand beyond some of the traditional Eurocentric wine and food pairings?
  • What are Theresa’s favourite wine gadgets?
  • If she could share a bottle of wine with anyone in the world, who would Theresa choose and why?

Key Takeaways

  • Why should you look beyond Eurocentric wine and food pairings?
    As Theresa explains, it’s in the name. Eurocentric pairings don’t account for cultural and socioeconomic differences. She thinks about it like IQ tests in that they were made for people of a certain socioeconomic status and cultural background. However, there are a lot of wine consumers from all different parts of the world. We don’t all come from Europe. So, we have to flip a switch in our brains to think of different descriptors and different food pairings that are more relevant to people from different cultural backgrounds.
  • What’s so special about making vineyard-designated wines?
    Theresa loves making vineyard-designated wines because they each have unique characteristics. Some of them produce dark fruit, like Colberg and McDonald Mountain. They have really beautiful blue, red, and purple fruit qualities and deeper tannins versus an inland vineyard called the Middle Reach. It’s a warmer climate. Acid is there. It’s a defining characteristic, but it’s not quite as prominent as in those cooler climates.
  • How can you get the most out of your next trip to Sonoma County?
    Theresa advises getting out to Sonoma County restaurants. She also says to avoid booking too many tastings, perhaps just two or three in a day. Choose a well-known winery and one that’s off the beaten path.

 

Start The Conversation: Click Below to Share These Wine Tips

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A lot of people are afraid to talk about négociant wine making and négociant producers because they think about buying bulk and making cheap wines out of it. - Theresa Heredia Theresa Heredia Click to tweet

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Some of the best wines I ever had were from négociant producers. - Theresa Heredia Theresa Heredia Click to tweet

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Chardonnay has really robust clusters and berries compared to Pinot Noir. - Theresa Heredia Theresa Heredia Click to tweet

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Don’t try to be one of the guys. - Theresa Heredia Theresa Heredia Click to tweet

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Eurocentric wine and food pairings are very insensitive to cultural and socioeconomic differences. - Theresa Heredia Theresa Heredia Click to tweet

 

About Theresa Heredia

Theresa Heredia studied Biochemistry as an undergraduate student at Cal Poly, SLO, and then Chemistry as a graduate student at UC Davis before discovering her passion for winemaking. She started her career at Saintsbury and has also worked at Joseph Phelps Vineyards and Domaine de Montille in France. She became Winemaker at Gary Farrell Winery in 2012 and achieved critical acclaim for her wines. At Gary Farrell, she developed strong relationships with some of the most prominent vineyards in California. She was twice nominated as Winemaker of the Year by Wine Enthusiast and has received numerous other accolades, including Wine Enthusiast’s #1 wine in the “Top 100 Wines of 2017, and this month is featured in Wine Spectator’s “New Class of Chardonnay Stars”. Prior to joining Gary Farrell Winery, she was at Joseph Phelps’ Freestone Vineyards, where in early 2012 she was named “Winemaker to Watch” by the San Francisco Chronicle.

 

Resources

 

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Thirsty for more?

  • Sign up for my free online wine video class where I’ll walk you through The 5 Wine & Food Pairing Mistakes That Can Ruin Your Dinner (and how to fix them forever!)
  • You’ll find my books here, including Unquenchable: A Tipsy Quest for the World’s Best Bargain Wines and Red, White and Drunk All Over: A Wine-Soaked Journey from Grape to Glass.
  • The new audio edition of Red, White and Drunk All Over: A Wine-Soaked Journey from Grape to Glass is now available on Amazon.ca, Amazon.com and other country-specific Amazon sites; iTunes.ca, iTunes.com and other country-specific iTunes sites; Audible.ca and Audible.com.

 

Transcript

Natalie MacLean 00:00:00 Why should you look beyond Eurocentric wine and food pairings? What’s so special about vineyard designated wines? And how can you get the most out of your next trip to Sonoma County? In today’s episode, you’ll hear the stories and tips that answer those questions in our chat with superstar winemaker Theresa Heredia, who has worked for some of California’s most prestigious wineries. Now, this is Part Two of our conversation, but if you missed the first part from last week, no worries. Go back to it after you finish this one. By the end of our conversation, you’ll also discover: What makes Chardonnay more of a survivor grape compared to other varieties. What are Teresa’s favourite wine gadgets. Why are so many people afraid to talk about négociant wine making and négociant producers and what exactly is that?.What flavours and aromas are imparted by including ripen stems in the fermentation process. How many different types of soil are found in Sonoma County. Tip its more than all of France combined. And how did this staggering diversity develop. How do microclimates differ across the wine neighbuorhoods of the Russian River Valley, and what is their influence on the wines characteristics. How has being a gay woman impacted Theresa’s experience in the wine industry. What can wineries do to be more inclusive toward the LGBTQ+ community. Which aspects of making Russian River selection Pinot Noir are Theresa’s favourites. What do Gary Farrell Wines Pinot Noir and Sanford and Benedict Pinot Noir tastes like, and how do they differ. Which foods would pair best with these wines and why. And if Theresa could share a bottle of wine with anyone in the world, who would she choose and why.

Natalie MacLean 00:01:58 Just a reminder that one of you is going to win a gorgeous bottle of Gary Farrell Wines Pinot Noir from the Russian River Valley. All you have to do is email me at [email protected] and let me know that you would like to win a bottle. I will pick one person randomly from those who contact me. Okay, let’s dive in.

Do you have a thirst to learn about wine? Do you love stories about wonderfully obsessive people, hauntingly beautiful places, and amusingly awkward social situations? Well, that’s the blend here on the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast. I’m your host, Natalie MacLean, and each week I share with you unfiltered conversations with celebrities in the wine world, as well as confessions from my own tipsy journey as I write my third book on this subject. I’m so glad you’re here. Now pass me that bottle, please, and let’s get started.

Welcome to episode 299. In personal news, I want to share with you a review for the new audiobook of Wine Witch on Fire: Rising from the Ashes of Divorce, Defamation and Drinking Too Much. It’s by Jim Beeson from Magnolia, Texas, just outside of Houston, and he posted it on Audible.com “Inspiring. Great story. Well-Read. Well-written. Unfortunate that Natalie had to endure her worst vintage yet. I loved how she persevered through it, and I applaud the way she told the story, turning a huge negative into an incredibly positive message. And I love the fact that she narrated her own memoir. What other choice could be made? Great work all round. Five stars”. Thank you so much, Jim.

You can download Wine Witch on Fire and start listening to it immediately on Audible.com, Kobo, Audiobooks.com, Spotify, Google Play, Libro.FM, and wherever else you get audiobooks. If you’ve started listening to the audiobook, please let me know. I’d love to hear from you at [email protected]. I’ll put a link in the show notes to all retailers worldwide for the audiobook, e-book and paperback versions at nataliemaclean.com/299. Okay, on with the show.

Natalie MacLean 00:04:33 So the winery produces about 30 cases of wine a year, 60% sold in restaurants. We’re fortunate in Canada to get a small number of those cases sold through retail outlets, mostly through the LCBO vintages release program.

But I’m curious. You work with about 35 to 40 different vineyards to produce your seven vineyard designated Chardonnays, 14 vineyard designated Pinot Noirs each year, as well as a blend of grapes from various vineyards under your labels. The Russian River Valley Chardonnay. The Pinot, which we’re going to taste, is very similar I think to the Burgundian model of being a négociant who purchases grapes from a lot of growers and then makes the wine, rather than the Bordeaux model of a large estate owning their own grapes. How does making vineyard designated wines differ from those that depart from the obvious, you know? You’ve got multiple components in a blend, right?

Theresa Heredia 00:05:12 Thank you for talking about the négociant model. A lot of people are afraid to talk about négociant winemaking, négociant producers because they think about buying bulk wine and making cheap wines out of it.

Natalie MacLean 00:05:25 Oh, I think of Louis Latour, the top houses in Burgundy. That’s what they do there.

Theresa Heredia 00:05:30 Absolutely. You have a lot of négociant producers like that who are Grand Cru and Premier Cru producers in Burgundy. Some of the best wines I ever had were from négociant producers. So they’re buying grapes from Grand Cru and Premier Cru vineyards and making wine from them rather than owning their own vineyards. And so it’s a similar model at Gary Ferrell Winery. And what’s really fun and special about making vineyard designated wines. We make the blends as well but I love both. I love the blending process of putting together this Russian River selection Pinot that you have, but I also love making each of the individual vineyard designated wines because they all have such really tremendously unique characteristics to them. Some of them are dark fruit, the cool climate stuff, like Hallsberg and McDonald Mountain. They’ve just got this really beautiful blue, red, and purple fruit qualities to them and bigger deeper tannins versus in where Rochioli and Baciagalopi are located a little bit more inland in this neighbourhood that’s called the Middle Reach. It’s a warmer climate. Acid  is there. It’s a defining characteristic, but it’s not quite as prominent as from those cooler climates.

Theresa Heredia 00:06:36 And so it’s just fun to play around with different percentages of whole cluster from the cooler climates. You can do a lot more whole cluster inclusion from cool climates than you can in warm climates, because fruit ripens ahead of the stems. The stems need a little bit more time. And so in cooler climates you get more extended hang time and you can do. I’ve done as much as 100% whole cluster from Green Valley.

Natalie MacLean 00:06:58 So let me see if I understand. Is it the stems that ripen before the grapes?

Theresa Heredia 00:07:03 The grapes ripen ahead of the stems, especially in warmer climates…

Natalie MacLean 00:07:07 In warmer climates. But in your area, what’s ripening first?

Theresa Heredia 00:07:11 The grapes themselves are generally going to ripen ahead of the stems. And so you kind of want. In cooler climates, your fruit is getting an extended hang time, and the more time you have for your fruit to ripen, the greater chance you’re going to have of stem signification or stem ripening as well. So if you’re lucky, you get some ripening of the stems where you can use it in the fermentation and get some really beautiful spice characteristics, savoury aromas and flavours, black tea. And also you get some tannin in the wine as well from stem inclusion. And the stems have a lot of potassium. So they also can have a natural de-acidification process as well.

Natalie MacLean 00:07:49 Oh really? So it’s potassium that de-acidifies wine. It must – let me not try chemistry [laughter] but glom on to the wine and drop it out? How does that work?

Theresa Heredia 00:08:00 Exactly. So it’s about potassium and acid molecules interacting with one another reacting. And then it just kind of drops out of the fermentation.

Natalie MacLean 00:08:09 Okay. Mercifully untechnical. Thank you.

Theresa Heredia 00:08:11 [laughter] I tried. I tried. Without writing another dissertation.

Natalie MacLean 00:08:17 [laughter] So the fact that you’ve got this négociant model, is that a greater risk for you? Like, you don’t own the vineyard, is what I mean. Or is it the fact that do you mitigate that because you’ve got such long term contracts, it all nets out?

Theresa Heredia 00:08:31 Yes. The latter. I actually feel like it’s beneficial not to own the vineyard because there’s just less risk involved and we have certain parameters listed in our grape contracts that would allow us to opt out of the contract if we needed to. Granted, we’ve never had to, except in 2020when we mutually agreed with the growers that we weren’t going to take the grapes because of smoke exposure. But, if we owned the vineyards, we would be assuming the cost of those grapes if we weren’t making wine out of them in years like 2020.

Natalie MacLean 00:09:02 Right. Okay. That totally makes sense. Now, you’ve mentioned that Sonoma has more soil types than all of France, I believe. How many soil types does Sonoma have roughly, like approximately?

Theresa Heredia 00:09:13 Gosh. Like 31 different soil series. It’s over 30 different soil series.

Natalie MacLean 00:09:20 Is there a difference between a soil series and a soil type?

Theresa Heredia 00:09:23 It’s the same thing. Like Gold Ridge series soil is. It’s the series of the soil type, but the type is sandy loam, if that makes sense to you.

Natalie MacLean 00:09:33 Okay.

Theresa Heredia 00:09:33 And Yolo series is more clay based, a clay type of soil.

Natalie MacLean 00:09:38 And so what happened? Was it some tectonic shift or something glacial? What created so many soil types in Sonoma?

Theresa Heredia 00:09:46 A lot of stuff. There’s been a lot of geological activity over millions of years, and there has been volcanic activity and moving of the coastal tectonic plates, both of which created the Mayacamas Mountains that are east of us between Napa and Sonoma, also flooding of the plains and the recession of the ocean floor. So Russian River Valley used to be part of the ocean floor, kind of a shallow ocean. Green Valley specifically was like a shallow ocean.

Natalie MacLean 00:10:15 Okay. So is there lots of limestone from fossil ocean creatures?

Theresa Heredia 00:10:21 There is limestone. Not as much as you get in Burgundy. There’s a lot of sandstone. And so, Gold Rich Series sandy loam soil has a lot of that in it. It’s really cool, too. I’ve got this really great image of a soil pit that they dug at the Halslberg vineyard. It’s one of our main vineyards. It’s in Green Valley, so pretty close to the ocean. And they dug a soil pit down to below the root level of the grape vines and adjacent to a row of vines so you could see where the roots are.  And about 18 inchs down it was – probably between 18 and 24in down –  you could see the Gold Ridge series fine powdery sandy loam soil on the top. That’s called the top soil. And then down below that is what they call Sebastopol series, which is more of an iron rich kind of orange coloured, a little bit more clay type of soil. It’s clay and sand together. But it’s just fascinating to see that. That’s also a testament to the vast geological activity that’s happened over millions of years.

Natalie MacLean 00:11:17 Yeah, I love those kinds of pictures where you see all the different layers. You also talk about wine neighbourhoods. You are getting at that with the Little Reach and so on, each one having a different. I love that your term the wine neighbourhoods, having different microclimates and soil types. So just to go back to that for a minute. The Middle Reach that would be the warmest one?

Theresa Heredia 00:11:38 The Middle Reach is now the second warmest. So we’ve added a sixth neighbourhood to the neighbourhoods discussion. And so the Eastern Hills, which are the vineyards that are east of Highway 101, so on the north end of the Russian River valley and east of highway 101. So talking Chalk Hill. And it’s really warm out there. You don’t get much of the fog influence there as well. But the Middle Reach is the northernmost part of the Russian River Valley. A lot of the vineyards run along the river, as I discussed when I mentioned Rochioli and I talked about the significance of the fog and the type of soil there next to the river. But you also have vineyards that are a little bit on slightly higher elevation, and you don’t get as much of the fog influence in those because they’re not right next to the river. So you could almost split the Middle Reach into two. You could talk about the vineyards that are adjacent to the river, and you can talk about the ones that are on a hillside. And the ones on the hillside are more robust, richer, riper, and they have much more of a tannic structure to them. Whereas like Baciagalupi and Rochioli, the fruit that I work with at Gary Farrell, those wines tend to be more kind of succulent. Red fruit, lush soft tannins. Acidity is present, but just in the perfect amount. Not as high as Green Valley. So it’s a really neat neighbuorhood to talk about.

Natalie MacLean 00:12:55 Yeah, and you do a little bit of Zinfandel you said, with the Zinfandel being in one of those warmer neighbourhoods.

Theresa Heredia 00:13:01 So we worked with two Zinfandel vineyards during my time at Gary Ferrell. And the one in Dry Creek that I already told you about, which is not in Russian River. The other vineyard that we worked with was called Maffei. It’s still there. We just don’t make it anymore. It’s in a neighbourhood that’s warmer. It’s here. Not very far from my house, in a neighbourhood that’s called the Santa Rosa Plains. And it’s called the Plains because it’s a flatter area, makes a totally different type of Zinfandel than Dry Creek because of the neighbourhood. It’s a low lying area. Cold air settles at night. Vines retain lots of natural acidity. And the Zinfandel is not going to be as big and rich and ripe as a Dry Creek Zinfandel.

Natalie MacLean 00:13:41 That’s great. Well, okay. So let’s just see before I want to get to this tasting of course. Why do you call Chardonnay a “survivor” beyond the effect we know that it can adapt to many regions, but what is it about Chardonnay that’s a survivor for you?

Theresa Heredia 00:13:56 Yeah, Chardonnay is just. They’re just really robust clusters and berries. And I find that, with really big swings and temperature fluctuations  lots of fog, Pinot Noir is just really susceptible to all kinds of influences: microbial, big drastic weather changes, which I told you about in 2010, for example. Chardonnay is impacted as well, but it doesn’t really raise it up like Pinot Noir does. Both are thin skinned, cool climate varietals, but Chardonnay is just really robust and tends to hang on during temperature swings like that and it’s not as susceptible to as many of the microbial issues as Pinot noir. It is susceptible to things like botrytis, which is a mold that develops in the vineyard. But when you make Chardonnay, for the most part, most producers are putting the clusters into a press and squeezing the juice out and throwing the solids away. And so you don’t have the skins and any damage to the skins to deal with.

Natalie MacLean 00:14:55 Okay, well, changing track just before we get to the tasting. Despite some progress, only 14% of lead winemakers in California are women. Fewer than 10% of wineries are owned by women. This is the case not just for California, but many other wine regions. Why do you think the stats haven’t changed materially over the last, say, 5 to 10 years?

Theresa Heredia 00:15:15 Yeah, that’s a really tough one to answer. I scratch my head about that all the time. It was about 10% when I got into the wine industry and if it’s only 14 or 15% today, that’s really a small change over the 22 or 23 years that I’ve been in the industry.  So why? I can only surmise that a lot of women are maybe still deterred by the fact that there are so many men and they think it’s manly work. I don’t know. But also, I feel like wineries should make it a little bit more inviting for women. And we try at Gary Farrell. Our winemaker, who is in charge of hiring the harvest interns, makes it a point to try and hire half and half female versus male interns. He also tries to get a really good mix of people from different parts of the world.

Natalie MacLean 00:16:04 Excellent. And what advice do you give to young intern women, men? To what advice do you give that might surprise us?

Theresa Heredia 00:16:13 Well, to young women, my biggest piece of advice to them is just to be themselves. Don’t try to be one of the guys. Part of the problem is feeling intimidated by the fact that you’re surrounded by so many men and doing this really hard physical work. Women can be as good if not better than the men at what they do, and so they just need to feel comfortable being themselves and being a woman.

Natalie MacLean 00:16:36 Sure, that’s good advice. Do you give any advice to the young male interns or just like, watch out [laughter].

Theresa Heredia 00:16:42 Yeah, just, you know [laughter], don’t be cocky.

Natalie MacLean 00:16:46 [laughter] Got it. Now you were named Innovator of the Year by the Sonoma County Vintners Association last year, in part for your efforts related to diversity, equality and inclusion in the wine industry. You are also honoured with the North Bay Business Journal’s Pride Leadership Award, which recognizes local professionals for their contributions to the Pride movement, including your work in the Human Rights Campaign. How has being a gay woman impacted your own experience in the wine industry?

Theresa Heredia 00:17:18 I think the way it’s impacted me most is it’s taught me how to be an advocate. I’ve been very outspoken since the very beginning, since I first came out. And I came out when I was working at Joseph Phelps Vineyards, probably within a year or around. I had been there for about a year. And since then…

Natalie MacLean 00:17:37 Was that difficult?

Theresa Heredia 00:17:38 Yeah. I mean, my brother was gay and he’s my only other sibling. And so he came out when he was in early college as well. We’re only about 17 months apart. So he kind of paved the way for me. And I’ve had a lot of LGBTQ community surrounding me my whole life. And I think I was just prepared for it. But it was hard to figure out how to tell people, especially because I had been straight my whole adult life or at least I thought I was. So, I came out to them and once I did, I was like, whoa, now it’s easy. Doing it. You know, like ripping off the band aid and doing it. So since then, I’ve realized that it’s a lot easier to just be myself, just to be out and proud. And so I am. And I love it.

Natalie MacLean 00:18:21 Good for you. Wow. What has changed for the better for the LGBTQ+ community, say, in the last five years in the wine industry?

Theresa Heredia 00:18:30 The last five years, I haven’t seen a huge amount of change. But in the past ten years there’s been an evolution. I feel like more people are out. Media is writing about the queer community. You read about it in newspapers and you see videos, postings on social media all the time. And so the more people hear about it and see us, the more they know we’re here and that we’re significant and sort of normalizes things a lot more.

Natalie MacLean 00:18:55 Absolutely. And what still needs to be done in your opinion?

Theresa Heredia 00:18:59 I mean, I think a lot of wineries need to just make it feel safe for the LGBTQ community by doing things like using the safe space symbol on your website or putting signage up on the door, something about equality, or putting a safe space symbol out on the front door of your winery as well. Just making us feel safe and included.

Natalie MacLean 00:19:22 Yeah, that doesn’t seem like such a big step. And yet it’s so important. And Gary Farrell Winery became an early supporter and member of the LGBTQ Wine Society, which brings together, as I understand, wine lovers, wineries, restaurants, hotels, retailers in Sonoma County. And member Gary Saperstein, who owns Out In The Vineyard, which is such a clever name and organization, organizes Gay Wine Weekend with exclusive events and special events for the community. Under his leadership, the group is also produced a map of more than 425 wineries in Sonoma that are gay friendly. Yes. Clapping. Yes. Is there anything else that comes to mind in terms of inclusion that wineries could focus on?

Theresa Heredia 00:20:07 Hosting events would be amazing. You know, hosting events during Pride Month or featuring a special pride wine like Iron Horse has the Rainbow Cuvée and it just makes – even though they don’t necessarily have a gay winemaker or a LGBTQ+ owner, they just support the community. And I think it’s a wonderful thing.

Natalie MacLean 00:20:28 Yeah, absolutely. So if anyone is planning a trip to Sonoma. What are your best two tips on visiting the region itself?

Theresa Heredia 00:20:36 Let’s see, what would I say? I mean, you have to eat some of the food. We have some really amazing restaurants here in Sonoma County, but if you were going to book a couple of tastings. Well, actually tip number one is don’t book too many tastings. Don’t try to go to too many places. Sit and enjoy. Book 2 or 3 in a day. And I would actually do more than two. And I would try to book them and choose one that’s a well known, a big known winery if that’s your thing but I would say pick one that’s off the beaten path as well and really just try to explore the different off the beaten path areas of Sonoma County.

Natalie MacLean 00:21:10 And what about when they visit Gary Farrell Winery? What are your best tips there to get the most from their visit?

Theresa Heredia 00:21:16 Yeah, well, tip number one would be book the last appointment of the day if you can, because you’re not going to want to leave, so you don’t want to feel rushed. And what else would I say? If the weather is nice enough, I’d say sit out on the terrace and enjoy that view that I told you about earlier.

Natalie MacLean 00:21:33 Absolutely. And don’t assume the woman petting the cat is there to take your coat [laughter].

Theresa Heredia [laughter] Exactly. But I’m okay. I’m also okay when people don’t know that it’s me. I’m not the kind of winemaker who has the ego and needs to be recognized all the time. Sometimes I just want to sit out there and just be a regular old person hanging out on the terrace.

Natalie MacLean 00:21:52 I hear you. All right, let’s taste. I’ve been waiting to get to this. Looking forward to it. So I’m very fortunate that I have your Russian River Pinot Noir here. Do you have it as well?

Theresa Heredia 00:22:04 I know I have two fun vineyard designated Pinots.

Natalie MacLean 00:22:07 Oh, great. Good. So we’ll have a broader swath to talk about. So maybe you can like we’ve talked about this. It’s a blend, I assume, of different vineyards from the Russian River. Just as you do one Chardonnay like this. Maybe tell us a bit about this in terms of whatever you want to tell us about the background or how it smells and taste to you as the winemaker. Food pairings, whatever you like.

Theresa Heredia 00:22:29 Oh, yeah. So blending that wine is one of my favorite parts of my job. So it’s comprised of about, let’s say, 25, 24, 23 different vineyards. So it’s fun to do the blending sessions when we’re putting those wines together, because we’re sitting down and doing blind tastings and figuring out which vineyard designated components are the ones that are the best for the Russian River selection blend.

Now, keep in mind that if we’re working with 30 or 40 different vineyards, that’s all of our Pinot and Chardonnay. We’re working with 20 some odd different Pinot vineyards. And each of them is a component of the Russian River selection blend. And so  it’s like cooking in many ways, putting something that’s darker fruit and something that’s more red fruit that’s lush and soft on the palate. But another component might have really bright acidity, and another one might have really big, robust tannins. And it takes a little bit of each one to make the Russian River selection blend perfect. And that’s why it’s so much fun to put it together.

Natalie MacLean 00:23:29 It’s beautiful. I mean, it’s just so balanced. It’s not too much of anything. And it’s definitely your orchestra versus your soloist.

Theresa Heredia 00:23:37 It is definitely an orchestra. I love the musical analogy. And I didn’t notice which vintage do you have there? Is it 19 or 21?

Natalie MacLean 00:23:43 Oh, let me check the label. It is 21. And it’s just gorgeous. I mean, oh my goodness. Everything you were talking about in there, it’s like liquid silk as well.

Theresa Heredia 00:23:54 ’21 was a great vintage. It was, a nice long extended hang-time kind of growing season. And so the grapes got to develop lots really nice tannins, really resolved tannins. So it’s got great structure and concentration.

Natalie MacLean 00:24:09 Yes. This wine has resolved all of its issues. There’s nothing…[laughter]

Theresa Heredia 00:24:10 I love that. That’s cool [laughter].

Natalie Maclean 00:24:11 There is nothing it needs therapy for it [laughter].

Theresa Heredia 00:24:15 Yeah. Perfect.

Natalie MacLean 00:24:17 So tell us about the two wines you have.

Theresa Heredia 00:24:19 So the two that I have are can you see this.

Natalie MacLean 00:24:22 Yes I can and we’ll put a link in the show notes to these wines guys as well.

Theresa Heredia 00:24:27 This is our Hallberg Vineyard Pinot Noir and this is a 2017 vintage. And so I was already talking about this vineyard when I was talking about the neighbourhoods of the Russian River Valley. So this one is located in Green Valley, which is, incidentally, a sub appellation of the Russian River Valley close to the ocean. And so, you know, very foggy. And that Green Valley AVA was established the same year that the Russian River Valley was established in 1983.

Natalie MacLean 00:24:53 So is it a cooler climate then?

Theresa Heredia 00:24:55 Definitely a cooler climate. I find that the Hallberg Pinots tend to have a little bit more blue and purple fruit associated with them, and more blue and purple flowers as well, whereas something like Rochioli or Baciagalupi would have more rose petal floral aromas and more like vibrant cherry and raspberry red fruits. So Hallberg has a lot of red fruit as well, but I feel like it’s really mixed in with a lot of those blue and purple fruits.

Natalie MacLean 00:25:20 And would your food pairings differ between the two wines you have there and the one that I have?

Theresa Heredia 00:25:26 Yes. The other wine that I have here. Actually, I should mention is our 2017 Sanford and Benedict Vineyard Pinot Noir, which I thought would be fun to talk about because it’s in a completely different climate. So we’re outside of the Russian River Valley now. This is about five hours away, south of here in the city of Lompoc, and it’s just south of San Luis Obispo, which is where I went to college – thank you for mentioning that – in a beautiful area. Also a very, very cool climate, but totally different soil type. Different growing conditions as well. So the wines are very different from Hallberg, which I told you is a little bit more blue flowers. Sanford and Benedict is more earthy, bigger tannins for sure, bigger tannins and a little bit more red fruit forward. So it’s fun to evaluate them side by side. Food pairings wise with your Russian River selection Pinot, one of my absolute favourite pairings is either a Banh Mi or what are the Asian sandwiches that are in the soft sticky bun.  I’m drawing a blank on that today. But let’s just talk about the Banh Mi, which is a Vietnamese sandwich. So generally it has some sort of sliced meat inside, usually some grilled sliced meat and fresh herbs. So usually like some fresh mint and or cilantro and basil. And I often put hoisin in it as well. So it’s just really fresh and clean and crisp but still has… the meat usually has some Asian five spice in it. So it’s got that deliciousness to it.

Natalie MacLean 00:26:55 Oh, that would be wonderful. Wow. Making me hungry. It’s almost dinnertime here.

Theresa Heredia 00:27:00 Asian foods pair really well with our wines and with your Russian River selection Pinot in particular.

Natalie MacLean 00:27:05 Absolutely. And is there anything else you’d suggest, especially with the two that you have there?

Theresa Heredia 00:27:10 So with the Hallberg, let’s see, what would I have with it? I mean thinking about kind of classic more Eurocentric food pairings. I always love duck with the Hallberg Pinot especially.  Like some sort of a blueberry or a black cherry reduction sauce,  I think it’s just absolutely delicious. But Sanford and Benedict, because it has a little bit more red fruit forward qualities to it, I might even pair some sort of Asian dish with it like a salt and pepper shrimp. Or something with a bigger, richer sauce to it as well. We did a wine dinner at a Chinese restaurant in Miami one year and it just blew my mind that the types of pairings that she could do with these wines, with the Pinots and the Chardonnays because of that beautiful mouthwatering acidity. And they’re not over extracted and they’re not overripe and they’re not over oaked. So everything’s in balance.

Natalie MacLean 00:27:59 This is lovely. Absolutely. And you mentioned the Eurocentric. I want to ask you about that. Why do you think some of those traditional Eurocentric pairings red wine, red meat, white wine, white meat are outdated. I mean, you’re talking about it. You’re kind of already answered my question with all of these new spicy Asian pairings and so on, but is there anything more you want to say about that?

Theresa Heredia 00:28:21 Absolutely.  So just in the name, the Eurocentric pairings, it really is very insensitive to cultural and socioeconomic differences. I kind of try to think about it like an IQ test. You know, IQ tests were made for people of a certain socioeconomic status and cultural background. So there are a lot of wine consumers from all different parts of the world. They don’t all come from Europe. And so we have to try to turn that flip a switch in our brains to try and think of different descriptors and different food pairings that are more relevant to people from different cultural backgrounds.

Natalie MacLean 00:28:57 I love that. I’ve never heard anyone describe it like that, Theresa. And just the wines as well. Not everybody is drinking Bordeaux and Burgundy every night unless you have a trust fund. So that’s kind of Eurocentric thinking too, in the actual wines themselves, especially when you have wines like yours available for those pairings.

Theresa Heredia 00:29:16 I mean let’s face it. All of our wines originated in Europe, so we have to give credence to that.

Natalie MacLean 00:29:22 Sure. And you also pair your wines, if I understand correctly, at the Terrace tasting room with artisanal cheeses. So which cheeses do you suggest would go with the Pinots and also with the Chardonnays?

Theresa Heredia 00:29:33 Yeah. I mean, they have their specific cheeses that they put on the cheese plate. I don’t remember all of them specifically, but with the Chardonnays they serve. Marin French is the producer and the soft cheese is called Petite Breakfast. And it doesn’t have any. If you’ve had Brie, Brie can have this kind of gamey, animal like quality to it, especially if you’re eating the rind. But the Petite Breakfast is just creamy and mild and soft, like a Brie with a little bit more firm texture to it. But it pairs beautifully with the Chardonnays because it doesn’t dominate any of the Chardonnay flavour characteristics. Gouda is. Like a soft Gouda is also really amazingly like a Comté is really delicious with our Chardonnays.

With the Pinot, I would go as far as like a really aged cheddar or an aged Gouda, where you’ve even got some of the crystal bits in there. Have you had one of those before?

Natalie MacLean 00:30:25 Oh I Love those little crunchy bits.

Theresa Heredia 00:30:26 Some of my favorite.

Natalie MacLean 00:30:27 They are amino acids or something. Are they back to chemistry again?

Theresa Heredia 00:30:31 Yeah, actually, I should really know that. I would think that it’s like salts and maybe amino acids as well. I’m going to look into that now. Thank you.

Natalie MacLean 00:30:38 There’s some little clusters or something. But yeah I love them. The little crunchy bits.

Theresa Heredia 00:30:43 Maybe it’s even you know like in wine the tartrates are what precipitate out into the bottom when you’re de-acidifying a wine or when wine naturally de-acidifies and ages and tannins and tartrates drop out. I wonder if those are similar to little tartrate crystals. I wonder if it’s something like that. Anyway, who knows?

Natalie MacLean 00:31:01 It really does all come back to chemistry. Oh my goodness [laughter].

Theresa Heredia 00:31:06 Chemistry explains everything in the world. Everything [laughter].

Natalie MacLean 00:31:11 It does. It does. I love this conversation, but I want to squeeze in a few more questions. But I am cognizant of the time. Let’s see, is there a favourite childhood food you had and what might you pair with it as an adult today?

Theresa Heredia 00:31:24 Ooh, what were one of my favourite? Oh gosh, I’m so not a food driven person. Like one of my cats, my young cat. I mean, look, I’ve always loved chicken [laughter]. And I’ve always loved the drippings in the pan. My wife will make fun of me because as soon as we’re done with a meal. I’ll eat a modest meal, and then I’m cleaning up. I’m the cleanup crew. She’s the cook, and I’m the cleanup crew. So, you know, I’m always going to want to scrape the little bits off the bottom of the pan. And I feel like that in itself could pair with something that could be a delicious pairing.

Natalie MacLean 00:31:57 I love that. Drippings. Like, that’s where all the flavour is. That’s how you season a pan. So that’s where the good stuff is.

Theresa Heredia 00:32:03 You get little bits of meat and little bits of the sauce that’s left or the seasonings from whatever your chicken was cooked in. So I would pair that with our Hallberg Pinot since I have it right here. Yeah, actually I should be tasting a little bit of this wine.

Natalie MacLean 00:32:16 Let’s do you have any useful wine gadgets you’ve come across that you’d recommend?

Theresa Heredia 00:32:23 Oh, yeah. I mean, may I mention a few? Would that be okay?

Natalie MacLean 00:32:27 Yes, absolutely.

Theresa Heredia 00:32:29 So my absolute favorite one that I think is kind of a life changer for anybody who drinks older wines is the Durand wine opener. Have you heard of this?

Natalie MacLean 00:32:37 Is it the two prongs? Either side of a dried out cork?

Theresa Heredia 00:32:39 Yeah. So it has those two prongs. That’s an also. But the Durand has the worm corkscrew as well. And so it’s a genius device. I don’t own one. They’re about $150 and I haven’t purchased one yet, but I need to. Channel Wines in South San Francisco has it for $125 right now so I think I’m going to grab one. But it’s really a life changer if you’re pulling the cork out of an old bottle because, as you know, corks age over time and they start to kind of break down and it can be really hard and impossible to remove an old cork from a bottle. If you have the Durand, you put the corkscrew in first. Get it all the way in there, snug up against the cork, and then you just put the two prongs of the Ah-so part of it down in it, and then you pull it out like you would using it Ah-so. But the corkscrew itself acts as an anchor. So it’s a really necessary device for people who drink older vintage wines.

Natalie MacLean 00:33:31 Yeah.

Theresa Heredia 00:33:31 Great design. And then another of my favourite things that, I believe it or not, I very rarely use is this guy. This is a little bottle closure. It’s called Repair.

Natalie MacLean 00:33:41 Repair.

Theresa Heredia 00:33:42 I really should get some in the house, but it’s intended to use as you can see. I don’t know if you can see here, but there’s this little hole in the bottom there. There’s a little sachet of some sort of chemical inside there that acts as oxygen scavenger or kind of a desiccant, so to speak. And so when you get it, it has a little foil cover over the hole and you just take it off. You can put it in your bottle, screw it in there really good. And if you’re not going to drink the wine for a few days, if you leave it closed up, it actually pulls oxygen out of the air in the bottle and helps it to age. And you know, Repour’s website also says that it kind of like pulls oxygen out of the wine as well. So if you want to read more about chemistry, look at the Repour website because they explain the chemical laws behind it. So pretty cool stuff. Yeah, exactly.

Natalie MacLean 00:34:28 Yeah, those are great. Any others? I didn’t want to cut you off. If you had more gadgets, you wanted to know.

Theresa Heredia 00:34:34 That’s okay. My other favourite gadget is this scary one right here.

Natalie MacLean 00:34:38 Oh a saber.

Theresa Heredia 00:34:39 This is a saber. Yeah.

Natalie MacLean 00:34:41 Oh, yeah. That’s lethal.

Theresa Heredia 00:34:43 It’s not really. It’s not. It’s not sharp at all. It’s just Iron Horse saber actually. Okay. So I can rub this. It’s not sharp at all. It’s just intended to use you use the other side to remove the top of a Champagne bottle when it’s under so much pressure.

Natalie MacLean 00:34:59 Yeah. That’s great. So if you could share a bottle of wine with anyone in the world, living or dead, who would that be? And why would you open? What would you ask them?

Theresa Heredia 00:35:08 Oh, boy. Anyone in the world, huh?. I’m going to go with. It’s two people. I can’t separate them. I’ve always, always, always wanted to sit and break bread with the Obamas.

Natalie MacLean 00:35:18 Oh, that’d be fabulous.

Theresa Heredia 00:35:20 If I could, I want to sit down and I would drink any bottle of wine with them, but boy it would be the most amazing thing in the world to drink a wine that I’ve never had, which is a La Tache from Romanée-Conti in Burgundy, one of the most historical and famous vineyards in all of the world.

Natalie MacLean 00:35:37 Absolutely.

Theresa Heredia 00:35:38 And I just want to hear them talk. And they’re so intelligent. Both of them. I would love to just hear more from them and just listen. Just be the fly on the wall.

Natalie MacLean 00:35:47 Absolutely. I can’t imagine what dinner is like with them just on a regular Tuesday night.

Theresa Heredia 00:35:52 So much fun, right? I imagine it would be a lot of fun.

Natalie MacLean 00:35:55 Absolutely. All right. We have just run the course here. It’s just so amazing. And I haven’t gotten to everything. Is there anything that we haven’t covered, Theresa, that you’d like to mention before we wrap up?

Theresa Heredia 00:36:08 No, we’ve covered a lot. I think your questions are all digging deep. This is one of the most deep dive podcasts I’ve ever done. So thank you.

Natalie MacLean 00:36:17 Excellent. Thank you for saying that. I appreciate it. Well, it’s been a pleasure. I mean, the stories and tips are just amazing. I love the breadth and depth of your experience. Where can people find you and Gary Farrell wines online?

Theresa Heredia 00:36:31 So actually that is something that I failed to mention. Is that in May, I actually started my own business called Heredia Wine Consulting, and I’ve transitioned full time out of Gary Farrell Winery and I’m their consulting winemaker. So Brett McKoy, who’s been at Gary Farrell for 19 years and actually worked with Gary Farrell, the man he’s now, stepped up as head winemaker. And so I’m offering some advice through this harvest. And I’m looking at picking up clients myself. So to find me you go to my website which is www.herwineco.com.  It’s the first three letters of my last name and it’s just a cool website. HerWinCo. How cool is that? I can’t believe it was available.

Natalie MacLean 00:37:13 That worked out.

Theresa Heredia 00:37:14 Yeah, it really did. And same on Instagram. It’s Her_winco

Natalie MacLean 00:37:19 We’ll put those links in the show notes as well.

Theresa Heredia 00:37:22 Great. Thank you. And Gary Farrell Winery. Check out the website. You can see some beautiful pictures of the terrace as well. And that’s just GaryFarrellwinery.com. And if you want to go taste there you have to book an appointment. So I suggest booking at least a week or two in advance, if not more.

Natalie MacLean 00:37:37 Good to know. This is great. I will raise my glass to you and say thank you so much. I hope next time we can do this in person. Cheers!

Theresa Heredia 00:37:45 Yes, cheers to you!

Natalie MacLean 00:37:46 Great to get to know you and to taste your wines. Amazing. Really amazing. But here’s to the next time.

Theresa Heredia 00:37:53 Thank you.

Natalie MacLean 00:37:54 Okay. Bye for now.

Theresa Heredia 00:37:55 Bye.

Natalie MacLean 00:37: 36 Well, there you have it. I hope you enjoyed our chat with Theresa. Here are my takeaways. Why should you look beyond Eurocentric wine and food pairings? As Theresa explains, it’s in the name. Eurocentric pairings don’t include cultural and socioeconomic differences. She thinks about them like IQ tests, in that they were made for people of certain socioeconomic status and cultural background. However, there are a lot of wine consumers from all different parts of the world. We don’t all come from Europe, so we have to flip a switch in our brains to think of different descriptors and different food pairings that are more relevant to people from different cultural backgrounds. And frankly, personally, I find it far more interesting. I love actually finding new wine pairings for the different cuisines that we enjoy, from Indian and Thai to a whole range of East Asian and other types of dishes.

Number two. What’s so special about making vineyard designated wines? Theresa loves making vineyard designated wines because they each have unique characteristics. Some of them produce dark fruit like Colberg and McDonald mountain. They have this really beautiful blue, red, purple fruit qualities to them, she says. And the deeper tannins versus an inland vineyard that’s called Middle Reach. It’s a warmer climate. The acidity is still there and it’s still a defining characteristic, but it’s not quite as prominent as those from cooler climates.

And number three, how can you get the most out of your next trip to Sonoma County? Theresa advises getting out to Sonoma County restaurants because the food is amazing. And of course the pairings would be as well. She also says to avoid booking too many tastings, perhaps just 2 or 3 a day, choose one that’s a well known winery and maybe one that’s off the beaten path.

Natalie MacLean 00:39:54 In the show notes, you’ll find the full transcript of my conversation with Theresa, links to her website and wines, the video versions of these conversations on Facebook and YouTube live, and where you can order my book online now no matter where you live, you can also find a link to take a free online food and wine pairing class with me called the Five Wine and Food Pairing Mistakes That Can Ruin Your Dinner and How to Fix Them Forever at nataliemaclean.com/class. That’s all in the show notes at nataliemaclean.com/299.

Email me if you have a sip, tip, question, or if you’ve read my book or are listening to it at [email protected]. If you’ve missed episode 182, go back and take a listen. I chat about California’s Paso Robles wine region and high acidity wines with Lori Budd. I’ll share a short clip with you now to whet your appetite.

Lori Budd 00:40:43 Wines have acidity. Even red wines have acidity to them, but tannins calm it down. In a white wine, when the acid is high, you take a sip and your tongue starts to salivate. Kind of like if you suck on a lemon, it makes you crave another drink.

Natalie MacLean 00:41:00 Just as you squeeze lemon on a fish, because it adds that mouthwatering acidity and makes the food taste better. I think the acidity also brings forward the flavor in the wine and makes it even taste better. Acid is our friend.

Lori Budd 00:41:13 Yes, there’s a balance.

Natalie MacLean 00:41:19 You won’t want to miss next week when we chat with Edward Slingerland, a professor of philosophy at the University of British Columbia and author of the bestseller Drunk: How We Sipped, Danced, and Stumbled Our Way to Civilization, which examines how our taste for intoxicants was not an evolutionary accident. He argues instead that wine, alcohol, and other drugs have played a crucial role in helping humans to be more creative, trusting and cooperative.

If you like this episode or even learned one thing from it, please email or tell a friend about the podcast this week, especially someone you know who’d be interested in learning more about the wines of Sonoma and especially the Russian River.

Natalie MacLean 00:41:59 It’s easy to find my podcast. Just tell them to search for Natalie MacLean Wine on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, their favourite podcast app, or they can listen to the show on my website at nataliemaclean.com/podcast. Thank you for taking the time to join me here. I hope something great is in your glass this week, perhaps a voluptuous Sonoma Chardonnay.

You don’t want to miss one juicy episode of this podcast, especially the secret full bodied bonus episodes that I don’t announce on social media. So subscribe for free now at nataliemaclean.com/subscribe. Meet me here next week. Cheers.

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