Introduction
What’s the difference between tasting wine and beer when you want to identify specific aromas and flavours? What are some of the similarities and differences between a Cicerone or beer sommelier and a wine sommelier? How do retronasal aromas give you a different, deeper sense of the aromas of both beer and wine?
In this Unreserved Wine Talk podcast episode, I’m chatting with author Mandy Naglich.
You can find the wines we discussed here.
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Giveaway
Two of you are going to win a personally signed copy of Mandy’s new book, How to Taste: A Guide to Discovering Flavor and Savoring Life.
How to Win
To qualify, all you have to do is email me at [email protected] and let me know that you’ve posted a review of the podcast.
It takes less than 30 seconds: On your phone, scroll to the bottom here, where the reviews are, and click on “Tap to Rate.”
After that, scroll down a tiny bit more and click on “Write a Review.” That’s it!
I’ll choose three people randomly from those who contact me.
Good luck!
Highlights
- What are some of the similarities and differences between a Cicerone and a sommelier?
- What was it like to win a national homebrew competition?
- How did Mandy become interested in homebrewing?
- Should your sense of smell be tested as part of your annual physical?
- What does Mandy love about Pommery Pop Champagne?
- Why should you consider using a Champagne tulip glass instead of a flute?
- How does Allagash White bring together the beer and wine worlds?
- What causes beer to hold its head longer compared to other beverages?
- How does beer’s head affect the tasting experience?
- What’s Mandy’s seven-step method for tasting beer?
- When should you cover your glass before swirling?
- How can you best utilize your retronasal smell pathway?
- What types of food would pair well with Allagash White versus Pommery Pop Champagne?
- How can a food pairing create a whole new flavour sensation?
- Why does speaking aloud help you to solidify your tasting knowledge?
- How can you challenge your perceptions of your taste?
- What’s Mandy’s favourite wine gadget?
- Why would Mandy love to share a bottle of wine with Oprah?
- What message would Mandy share with the world on a billboard in downtown Manhattan?
Key Takeaways
- I was fascinated with Mandy’s explanation and demonstration of the differences between tasting wine and beer. I had assumed the process would be the same and was surprised to find that it’s not.
- I also found her explanation of the similarities and differences between a Cicerone and a sommelier helpful. I didn’t realize that the world of beer is so diverse (yes, my little wine-snob eyes have been opened) or that Cicerones are more involved in maintaining complex equipment than sommeliers.
- I fully support her focus on how retronasal aromas reintroduce you to the richer, deeper aromas of both beer and wine and enable you to discover something new when you’re playing it backward as she says.
- I also agree about using a tulip glass rather than a traditional champagne flute to better swirl and smell the wine.
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About Mandy Naglich
Mandy Naglich is one of fewer than 100 Advanced Cicerones in the world, one of the highest certifications in beer expertise. She’s also a Certified Cider Professional and has her WSET in spirits. Mandy’s writing has been published in Vice, Taste of Home, Vine Pair, and Wine Enthusiast. She started her career in journalism at the Schieffer College of Communication at Texas Christian University.
Resources
- Connect with Mandy Naglich
- Unreserved Wine Talk | Episode 263: Tasting Bliss Points & Making Wines Memorable with Mandy Naglich, Author of How to Taste: A Guide to Discovering Flavor and Savoring Life
- Diary of a Book Launch: An Insider Peek from Idea to Publication
- Wine Witch on Fire Free Companion Guide for Book Clubs
- My Books:
- Unreserved Wine Talk | Episode 175: Wine Sommeliers v Beer Cicerones and Tasting Techniques with Drinks Adventures’ James Atkinson
- My new class The 5 Wine & Food Pairing Mistakes That Can Ruin Your Dinner And How To Fix Them Forever
Tag Me on Social
Tag me on social media if you enjoyed the episode:
- @nataliemaclean and @natdecants on Facebook
- @nataliemaclean on Twitter
- @nataliemacleanwine on Instagram
- @nataliemaclean on LinkedIn
- Email Me at [email protected]
Thirsty for more?
- Sign up for my free online wine video class where I’ll walk you through The 5 Wine & Food Pairing Mistakes That Can Ruin Your Dinner (and how to fix them forever!)
- You’ll find my books here, including Unquenchable: A Tipsy Quest for the World’s Best Bargain Wines and Red, White and Drunk All Over: A Wine-Soaked Journey from Grape to Glass.
- The new audio edition of Red, White and Drunk All Over: A Wine-Soaked Journey from Grape to Glass is now available on Amazon.ca, Amazon.com and other country-specific Amazon sites; iTunes.ca, iTunes.com and other country-specific iTunes sites; Audible.ca and Audible.com.
Transcript
Natalie MacLean (00:00):
You are using a rather big glass for your Champagne, not the flute but more of a white wine glass.
Mandy Naglich (00:07):
This is the standard now in France. It’s called a Champagne Tulip because you can get your nose in there a little bit better than a very thin flute, and it also is tall enough that it’s still going to hold onto carbonation. Whereas a coupe, your Champagne will go flat quickly because the bubbles don’t have far to go to get out of the glass. So this is kind of a happy medium. You’re getting a lot of aroma, but it’s still holding onto carbonation.
Natalie MacLean (00:29):
Yeah, I totally agree. I advise people to at least use a white wine glass – not a flute – because it’s still wine. I still like to swirl it and smell it and I think you can get more enjoyment than just sipping out of a flute.
Natalie MacLean
Do you have a thirst to learn about wine? Do you love stories about wonderfully obsessive people, hauntingly beautiful places and amusingly awkward social situations? Well, that’s the blend here on the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast. I’m your host, Natalie MacLean, and each week I share with you unfiltered conversations with celebrities in the wine world, as well as confessions from my own tipsy journey as I write my third book on this subject. I’m so glad you’re here. Now pass me that bottle please and let’s get started.
(01:35):
Welcome to episode 264. What’s the difference between tasting wine and beer? When you want to identify specific aromas and flavours, what are some of the similarities and differences between a Cicerone or a beer sommelier and a wine sommelier? And how do retronasal aromas give you a different deeper sense of the aromas of both beer and wine? In today’s episode, you’ll hear the stories and tips that answer those questions in part two of our chat with Mandy Naglich who has just published How to Taste: a Guide to Discovering Flavour and Savouring Life. You don’t need to have listened to Part One from last week first, but I hope you’ll go back to it if you missed it after you finish this one. Two of you are going to win a copy of her beautiful hardcover book. All you need to do is email me and let me know that you’d like to win.
(02:30):
I’ll choose two people randomly from those who contact me at [email protected]. I wanted to mention some of the recent winners of the books that we’ve been giving away on the podcast, as well as some other books that you can still win. Craig Haynes in Ottawa has won Vignette: Stories of Life and Wine in 100 Bottles by Jane Lopes. Steph Swensen in Vancouver has won a copy of Luke Whittalls’ book The 50 Must Try In BC. I still have three copies of Vintage Crime: A Short History of Wine Fraud by Master of Wine Rebecca Gibb to give away. So let me know if you’d like to win one of these or Mandy’s book or both. By the way, you don’t have to live in Canada like the most recent winners do.
(03:21):
Before we dive into our chat with Mandy, I wanted to share a review of my own book Wine Witch on Fire: Rising from the Ashes of Divorce, Defamation, and Drinking Too Much from a very nice person on Amazon, whose name I don’t know but who’s spread a little kindness with these words. “I very much enjoyed this book. I thought it would be mostly about wine and the wine world, and much of it is, but it was more about one woman’s quest into self-discovery after a painful divorce and the horrible online misogynistic bullying attack that happened at the same time. Of course, on top of that, it is a beautifully written book. I ordered her other books immediately after I finished this one with a touch of levity provided by wine and food pairings throughout. I highly recommend this book to anyone who enjoys great writing, has been through a breakup and likes to learn about wine.” Thank you, nice person.
(04:10):
If you’ve read the book or are reading it, I’d love to hear from you at [email protected]. If you haven’t got your copy yet and would like to support it and this podcast that I do on a volunteer basis, please order from any online book retailer no matter where you live. Every little bit helps spread the message in this book of hope, justice, and resilience. It makes for a wonderful stocking stuffer or holiday gift book. I’ll send you beautiful personally signed book plates for every copy that you buy, just email me at [email protected]. I’ll also put a link in the show notes to all retailers worldwide at nataliemclean.com/264. Okay, on with the show.
Natalie MacLean
So is Cicerone the beer equivalent of Sommelier for wine?
Mandy Naglich (05:03):
It’s very similar, so I think sommelier is a little bit more service and hospitality focused for Cicerone. We do have to know beer pairing and menu development, but it’s very focused on serving as far as building those beer systems to serve carbonated things and being able to brew. So I also am a winner of the National Home Brew Competition, so I’ve definitely nailed brewing myself.
Natalie MacLean (05:27):
Yeah, tell us about that. When was this and how many entries? What got you going into that?
Mandy Naglich (05:32):
Yeah, so I won in 2016. I had been brewing for I think it was close to four or five years at the time, but I’d never entered a competition. I had just moved up to New York and the National Home Brew Competition was in Baltimore, and at the urging of some people that we went ahead and entered. It’s 3000 brewers, 5000 entries down there. So yeah, my French Saison came out on top. And then since then I’ve also gotten some medals for my Belgian Golden Strong and imperial Stouts.
Natalie MacLean (06:02):
That is remarkable. Did you ever think of commercializing a brand under your name?
Mandy Naglich (06:06):
I’ve definitely been approached about that, but the thing I love about journalism and writing is I can kind of follow my curiosities wherever they go, and I think I would very quickly. Yeah, it’s just not my… working on one thing until it’s perfect. Every single day is not something that sounds that fun to me, honestly.
Natalie MacLean (06:24):
Sure, absolutely. And so what got you into home brewing? Was beer on the table as a child? What drew you to beer itself?
Mandy Naglich (06:32):
I think it’s that it’s a little bit of a lower entry than making something like wine at home. It’s also something that on a college budget I was more experienced in drinking. But yeah, it was just something that was pretty easy to do. And once you kind of do one or two batches and you already see how it’s improved so much as you’ve learned. I really got obsessed with, first of all, trying to recreate beers that I loved and I wanted them to taste exactly the same. I’d have everyone taste them side by side blind. Mine and the professional one. And so that’s a little bit different than wine and things like spirits that change through the years. Wine, each vintage is going to be different. There’s no kind of recreating something that you love is in the same way as beer. Beer is so consistent year after year after year.
Natalie MacLean (07:15):
Wow. And is there anything that you’ve discovered since writing this book that you might add to a new edition or might inspire your next book?
Mandy Naglich (07:24):
There was so much about tasting and our health that wasn’t able to make it into the book, just because it would be so long. But the more I talk to researchers about how our memories is very closely tied to what we taste and smell and that really the earliest sign of things like dementia and Parkinson’s is probably just a slight dullness of what we’re smelling, but we don’t really test for that.
When you go to a physical, no one’s going to say oh bananas smelling the same to you. And even if it changed a little, it’s not something you would notice right away. But a lot of people were saying they really think that smell test should be part of your physical. Just as soon as we start to see that fall off, start looking for neurological issues or asking about other aspects of life because when… You’re comfortable, it’s so easy to say oh maybe things don’t smell as sharp. Oh, maybe I’m forgetting things, but it’s not something you think to tell your doctor right away and things like that.
And also because of the pandemic and the impact on taste and smell, research funding, there after people were so worried about losing their sense of smell. They’re getting a lot more funding and there might be a potential in the future that it also works the opposite way. They saw people with really large olfactory bulbs were less likely to be affected by Covid as far as symptomatic intensity. So there’s potential that if you really are going out there, keeping those senses strong, keeping that olfactory bulb large, that it can actually help you hold onto memory. Now, there’s no scientific evidence on that, but it’s things that people are really excited about studying and there could be a potential connection there if they could prove it.
Natalie MacLean (08:52):
That is so interesting. Wow.
Mandy Naglich (08:53):
Yeah, I’m definitely keeping my eye on all of that research. That would be just one more reason that we should all be tasting and smelling and appreciating what we eat every day that can help us hold onto our memories.
Natalie MacLean (09:04):
Fantastic. Alright, so you have a beer and a wine with you today. Maybe tell us about them. Which one would you like to start with?
Mandy Naglich (09:09):
Yeah, let’s start with the wine. I have this fun small, if anyone’s on video, you can see this little tiny pottery. I love these.
Natalie MacLean (09:17):
It’s very cute. There was a time back in the day when models would be sipping on them from straws or whatever, but yeah, it’s like a 200 mil. Is it really small size or maybe even less?
Mandy Naglich (09:27):
Yeah, really small. The labels kind of….
Natalie MacLean (09:32):
Exactly. Okay. And we’ll put a link to these in the show notes for those who are listening to the podcast.
Mandy Naglich (09:38):
Yeah, I have the full size here too, but if I’m just going to be alone, I don’t really need a full
Natalie MacLean (09:43):
It’s like me and a mini me [laughter]
Mandy Naglich (09:45):
Yeah, yeah, exactly [laughter].
Natalie MacLean (09:47):
And why did you choose this one, this wine?
Mandy Naglich (09:49):
So I’m a huge fan of sparkling wine as an aperitif, as I really think everything with carbonation. It’s probably coming from my beer background that I love carbonation so much. But I love sparkling wine and I love very, very dry wine. And Pomery is the first – they claim to the first – extra brut out there. So I’ve always really liked them. I’m going to do a pop, hopefully it’s not too loud.
Natalie MacLean (10:10):
We like sound effects.
Mandy Naglich (10:13):
Yeah, here we go.
Natalie MacLean (10:16):
There you go. Just a little sigh.
Mandy Naglich (10:16):
Pretty little pop on such a small bottle [laughter]. But, and I love the history of real, the area of Champagne and how to make real Champagne. I love that women are such a big part of how we started riddling…
Natalie MacLean (10:31):
Yes, Veuve Clicquot started that. And then Louis Pommery, as you said, exporting, I think it was the British market that wanted the first dry version of Champagne. They called it sauavge or brute. It was kind of savage taste of. The British, they wanted it dry.
Mandy Naglich (10:47):
So yeah, they made it in France in 1874, and then once they felt like it was all good, it made it over to England. In 1879 was when it really took over the market. And now that’s kind of, I think what we all look for. A lot of people like a very dry sparkling wine. I love a brut nature, the very, very dry, but extra brut always.
Natalie MacLean (11:06):
Which is drier, extra brut or brut nature?
Mandy Naglich (11:09):
Brute nature is as dry as it gets. So they don’t add any sugar back to it
Natalie MacLean (11:14):
So naturally dry. Yeah. Okay.
Mandy Naglich (11:16):
And so extra brut will be like, I think it’s three grams and then brut is 10 or something like that.
Natalie MacLean (11:23):
So if they don’t add any sugar to natural, how did they get the second fermentation in the bottle?
Mandy Naglich (11:28):
I think it’s just when they decided to tap it. So if there’s still some residual in the…
Natalie MacLean (11:33):
Wine itself. Yeah.
Mandy Naglich (11:34):
It’s not totally done fermenting.
Natalie MacLean (11:35):
Okay, cool. And now you’re using a rather big glass for your Champagne, not the flute but more of a bowl white wine kind of glass.
Mandy Naglich (11:44):
So this is really the standard now in France. It’s called a Champagne Tulip because two reasons. One is you can get your nose in there a little bit better, something like a very thin flute. And it also is just tall enough that it’s still going to hold on to carbonation. Flutes are so great for that really beautiful carbonation and keeping it carbonated. Whereas a coup, your Champagne will go flat quite quickly. The bubbles don’t have far to go to get out of the glass. So this is kind of a happy medium. These are from the Perrier Jouet Champagne house. But yeah, I was just in Champagne the last two summers actually – lucky me – and this has really shifted into what everyone’s serving out of because of that balance of you’re getting a lot of aroma, but it’s still holding onto carbonation.
Natalie MacLean (12:26):
I totally agree. I advise people to use at least use a white wine glass, not a flute, because it’s still wine. I still like to swirl it and smell it, and I think you can get more enjoyment than just sipping out of a flute.
Mandy Naglich (12:39):
Absolutely. I talked to Maximilian Riedel in the book, and he cannot stand the flute for anything. He’s like, when you think of a blanc de noir, he’s like would you pour a red wine into this flute and then try to smell it? You absolutely wouldn’t. I don’t know why you would treat Champagne this way.
Natalie MacLean (12:55):
He said with a scorn in his voice [laughter].
Mandy Naglich
Very passionate [laughter].
Natalie MacLean
Yeah. So what do you get from that Pommery Pop baby Champagne?
Mandy Naglich (13:03):
Yeah, I really love this one because there’s a lot of Champagnes that have a little funk to them or interesting things going on, but I really think Pommery. Their classic one is just really cheerful and kind of bright green apple note. And then of course the toasted brioche that you’re getting on a Champagne. A little maybe almonds going on.
Natalie MacLean (13:20):
And do you know if that is a blend of the three major grapes – Chardonnay, Pinot Meunier, Pinot Noir – or is it mostly Chardonnay in there?
Mandy Naglich (13:29):
That’s a good question. It does not say. If it said blanc to blanc, I would know, but it doesn’t say anything on there. So I’m guessing maybe there’s a little bit of a three, but yeah, not totally sure on this one.
But yeah, it’s a great celebration. I feel like Champagne that’s kind of just great for. That’s why I have all these tiny ones. I just think it’s no matter what your palate is, it’s not too sweet, it’s not too kind of interesting and funky. I really love obviously a Krug if you can get it, but it has that kind of almost blue cheesy note to it that I love but a lot of people find a little intense for a Champagne. It’s just really cheerful. Bright. Palm fruits. Almonds. Little toasted brioche going on.
Natalie MacLean (14:09):
Yeah, some of those notes are bitter. I love Krug too, but the blue cheese, toasted almonds. You’re a super taster, so have you accommodated or just developed a taste for that or they just don’t come off as bitter inside in the context of Champagne for you?
Mandy Naglich (14:23):
Yeah, I think it’s definitely just also becoming a more adventurous eater. What we’re exposed to over and over again is something that it becomes a little bit more part of our flavour vocabulary if you will. I don’t know if you can see behind me. Oh I guess I don’t have it up there. But I love Boulevardiesr and Negronis, which are very, very bitter drinks. I have some Amaros back there. So definitely with exposure you can come comfortable with that.
Natalie MacLean (14:46):
You’ve come a long way from that childhood picky eater.
Mandy Naglich (14:50):
Yes. I used love pork chops and mashed potatoes. That was it.
Natalie MacLean (14:52):
I can identify with that. And so what beer do you have there?
Mandy Naglich (14:58):
Oh yeah, this one is fun. I actually switched it up at the last minute, but it’s from Allagash. It’s called Two Lights. And the reason I picked it is because it’s made with Sauvignon Blanc grape must. So I thought we’ll blend our wine worlds and beer worlds.
Natalie MacLean (15:11):
Sure. And is Allagash, is that the brand or a region?
Mandy Naglich (15:16):
Allagash is the brand. So it’s a region up in just outside of Portland, Maine, but the actual brewery it’s one of the older breweries that we have in the US. They started in 1995. I did a little book event with them, so I learned a lot about them. But one thing I love about beer is just you can see this beautiful white head that it maintains when I was pouring my Champagne. You’ll see a head like that form, but it doesn’t have the protein to hold onto it at all.
Natalie MacLean
Right.
Mandy Naglich
So you see that little bit of foam and then it has to dissipate. But because of the protein that we have in malts, you get this beautiful mousse on top that I just think looks so pretty when you’re serving it with things. I have a little teku glass here that I think really also accentuates the head on it.
Natalie MacLean (15:56):
Okay, so where does the protein come from in beer?
Mandy Naglich (15:59):
It comes from the malt.
Natalie MacLean (16:00):
Okay. From the malt. Alright. So that creates that structure?
Mandy Naglich (16:03):
Right. And you can add if you want to add something like flaked wheat or flaked oats, that will up that protein even more. If you’ve heard of a German beer style called Hefeweizen, they have these huge heads. It would be filling this glass and they really can maintain it. That has a ton of wheat in it. That has all that protein that’s just holding on, basically capturing the bubbles like a net, holding onto it and making that beautiful head that stays around.
Natalie MacLean (16:24):
And do you like that, being able to taste it within the foam, the head, as well as then the beer itself, the more liquidity part? Does it give you two different taste experiences?
Mandy Naglich (16:34):
It definitely does. If you ever wanted to try to have a spoonful of just the head and then the beer, you’ll definitely notice a lot more bitterness in the head. So what’s happening with those proteins? They’re also bonding with some of the acids from hops. So you’re going to get some of that hoppy bitterness there that’s going to be more bitter than the body of the beer. But yeah, two different experiences. But you can usually drink right through it. So you’re sitting a little, it’s kind of frosting on a cake.
Natalie MacLean
[laughter]
Mandy Maglich
You’re getting a little frosting with your sip, but you’re not typically eating just the frosting itself with a spoon.
Natalie MacLean (17:05):
Well, some of us might [laughter].
Mandy Naglich
But that’s okay. That’s not what we’re supposed to do.
Natalie MacLean
And so I’m just watching you here. Do you swirl your beer when you go to the way you would a wine to taste a beer?
Mandy Naglich (17:16):
Yeah, so it’s chapter four of the book outlines the tasting method, which is a seven step method that I had a bunch of different experts from cheese to beer, wine, and sake weigh in on and just make sure that it made sense with whatever you were tasting. So really I taste everything exactly the same way. A little bit of swirling is great just because you’re knocking those aroma compounds out of solution to get them up to your nose, but you don’t want to over swirl.
These two beverages are perfect not to over swirl. You’re also going to swirl the carbonation right out of your drink.
So what I really suggest to people is wait until have your last three or four sips left and then do a covered swirl where you’ll put your hand on top of the glass, swirl it, and what’s happening is under that hand is all the aroma compounds are being forced into that headspace. So you’re really going to swirl the crap out of it. I say your swirl in the flavour all out, you’re going to align your nose with your hand and then lift your hand and take a sniff. And it’s my favorite part of my book tour. We do tasting together, everyone goes together whoa,
Natalie MacLean (18:17):
[laughter] I love that.
Mandy Naglich (18:18):
It really makes it this potent aroma under there. But the thing is, whatever’s left in your glass basically has no flavour left in it because you swirled it all out.
Natalie MacLean (18:25):
Even if it’s not carbonated like a flat white wine or a flat red wine, it would dissipate the aromas out of it as well?
Mandy Naglich (18:32):
So basically you’re swirling all of those compounds out of solution and gathering them in the headspace. It wouldn’t be quite as much maybe, but you’ll definitely notice a flatness to what you taste. It also warms it up when you’re doing a ton of swirling like that, like five seconds of concentrated swirling on just a little bit left in the glass. You’ll notice a flatness when it’s over because all of those compounds are what you’re tasting. So they all got swirled out into your nose. But it’s like a last kiss of flavour that it’s really fun whenever you’re having something special, if you feel comfortable covering your glass in public and putting your hand on it.
Natalie MacLean (19:01):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Go for it. And also in your book you talk about orthonasal – which is smelling upfront the way we usually think of smelling a glass of wine or beer – and then retronasal. Talk about retro nasal first. It’s coming out the back, but let’s go step by step. Do you have to pinch your nose, plug your nose first? What are the steps?
Mandy Naglich (19:22):
Yeah, so just really quick. Retronasal is that pathway up the back of your throat still hitting that olfactory bulb that’s kind of right behind your eye. So what we were trying to do in this is force that aroma out your nose basically without getting any of that orthonasal to kind of interfere. So to do the best retronasal where you’re truly getting just retronasal aroma, you will pinch your nose, take a breath, take a medium-sized sip, swirl it over your palate, and then keeping your lips closed you’ll exhale out your nose as you swallow. And that’s just going to force those aroma compounds up the back of your throat and out your nose. I kind of think about it, if you think of our olfactory receptor like piano keys. An orthonasal, you’re playing it up your scales. You can take the exact same notes on a piano and play down the scales and they just sound a little different even though it’s the same notes, just the opposite order. And that’s kind of what retronasal gives you a chance just to reintroduce yourself to the aroma and see, when you’re playing it backward, if you notice anything new. So you don’t have to plug your nose. You can kind of just try not to sniff out of it and do that same thing if you feel uncomfortable plugging your nose in public. But I’ve really been just a quick pinch. No one cares if you’re out to dinner. No one notices.
Natalie MacLean (20:31):
For sure. I was just wondering what the purpose was, but I guess you don’t want to be breathing in other aromas with the wine when you’re first taking it in. You just want to just the wine coming in, I guess.
Mandy Naglich (20:43):
Well, and if you think about, I don’t know if you’ve ever done this with a skittle or a jellybean, but when plug your nose and put it in your mouth and it doesn’t taste like that much and then you let go of your nose and all of a sudden you get all of this flavour. That’s because about 80% of what we consider flavour is coming from our aroma receptors. Our palate can only get our five basic tastes. So that’s not much of flavour. All of the interesting notes that differentiate an orange from a lemon are coming from our nose. So just by plugging that, you’re just making sure it’s not going to interfere at all until you’re exhaling and getting all of that aroma up into your olfactory bowl.
Natalie MacLean (21:14):
Very cool. And back to your beer, how would you describe it? Not only as a beer, but how would you approach a tasting note perhaps differently from what you would with the wine?
Mandy Naglich (21:24):
Yeah, I actually don’t think you need to approach it all that differently. I’m really surprised I tasted it and it’s sweeter than I was expecting. You definitely get some of that really sweet grape Sauvignon Blanc to it. It’s not as dry as I was expecting as far as the body. For a beer, it’s very neutral on the yeast. You can tell it’s a lager. It doesn’t have a lot of that beer character that I was talking about, all those esters and phenols and things like that. It’s very clean on the nose. Other than that, little bit of fruit, that little bit of grape skin going on. It kind of has almost like a grape soda or a grape jelly-nest to it like a white grape soda or something. It’s very spritzy.
Natalie MacLean (22:02):
And do you think tasting the Champagne first affects your perception of that beer? Do you think by comparison the beer is tasting sweeter because the Champagne was first?
Mandy Naglich (22:12):
It might be. I would say we took a couple minutes in between.
Natalie MacLean (22:16):
And you’ve taken a couple of sips.
Mandy Naglich (22:17):
Yeah, definitely. And I think the best palate cleanser is the smell of yourself so I’ve definitely had a couple seconds of that, just plugging my nose and things like that. So I don’t think that probably affected it all too much. And I wonder if they were trying to accent the sweetness of this. It’s kind of almost cocktail-ish happening right now.
Natalie MacLean (22:38):
And what would you pair with that beer versus the Pommery Champagne?
Mandy Naglich (22:43):
Good question. I mean, both of these are pretty low intensity drinks so I think the number one rule when it comes to pairing is making sure your intensities match. So you don’t want the drink to overpower the food or vice versa. Actually I think both…
Natalie MacLean (22:55):
Do you mean the degree of flavour by intensity?
Mandy Naglich (22:56):
Yeah. So something like this is, it has a lot of flavour going on. I was saying almond and green apple and brioche, but they’re very delicate flavours. There’s something that even I would say something like a chicken could overpower the flavours there. They’re very delicate. So it would be something kind of I would say maybe like a neutral-ish goat cheese with some honey and maybe a nice piece of toasted brioche should be nice to kind of accent those flavours in the Pommmery.
The intensity of the Two Lights from Allagash is a little bit more, especially that sweetness coming through and those notes of grapes. So it could be fun with a summer salad with some kind of fruit on it, maybe some strawberries and balsamic and maybe a little goat cheese on there too. But some of the herbals of the salad I think you can get as a secondary or third note, some tropical hops going on here. So you could accent that bitterness and with some bitter greens and some fruit and balsamic would be good.
Natalie MacLean (23:46):
Yeah, that sounds like a great pairing. And then you were talking about another beer somewhere where the pairing of – I think it was a German lager and a sharp cheese – created a new taste or flavour sensation. What was happening there?
Mandy Naglich (24:01):
So a very malt forward beer, like a dark beer like Schwartz beer or a dark mild from England and then a sharp cheddar, they kind of come together to create this experience like you’re having a grilled cheese. It’s also the same with a very jammy wine and something like a sweet peanut brittle and you kind of get the peanut butter and jelly combination going on. Bringing two. Using the beverage and food to kind of come together and recreate a memory or another dish is a really fun way to play with flavours and pairings rather than maybe always thinking about intensity and cutting, contrasting, complimenting kind of things. It’s fun to create something new
Natalie MacLean (24:38):
Something new. And does saying out loud what you’re smelling helps cement your memory of those aromas better than just thinking about the aromas or writing them down?
Mandy Naglich (24:49):
Definitely. So there’s something called verbal overshadowing that can really work both ways if you’re saying the wrong notes. So say I was smelling this, which smells very grape and tropical, but I was saying I don’t know dried fig, dried fig over again, it can kind of cement things the wrong way. So you really want to do it with an expert where you know that or exactly what’s in the beer. I know this Sauvignon Blanc grape, so I could say white grape, white grape, white grape, and that will really tie that verbal cue with the sensory input together in your brain. But it works both ways, so that’s why when you’re kind of learning, you want to be careful if you can. You want to be with an expert or someone who knows so you can make sure you’re making those connections realistically.
Natalie MacLean (25:34):
Yes.
Mandy Naglich (25:35):
I don’t want to say correctly, I don’t think anyone tastes incorrectly, but just maybe you want your foundations to be solid on what is accepted for different notes and things like that. And then practicing saying things out loud is really helpful. Even your spice cabinet you can go to and smell and say cinnamon, cinnamon, cinnamon, and then see if you smell that in a red wine somewhere and you’ll know when it pops up that it’s related to cinnamon.
Natalie MacLean (25:58):
I’m going to try that, too. Great tips. Thank you, Mandy. Let’s move to the lightning round. Is there something that you believe about wine about which others might disagree?
Mandy Naglich (26:09):
That’s a good question. I’m not sure. Wine is not my specialty, I will say.
Natalie MacLean (26:14):
Yeah. So maybe the point is that you should learn more about beer than wine. All the wine lovers listening would disagree with that [laughter]. Kidding.
Mandy Naglich (26:24):
I mean the whole philosophy of the book is I really think all tasting and drinking and experiencing should be a positive experience.
Natalie MacLean
Yes.
Mandy Naglich
Even if there’s something I don’t like, just adding it to my tasting vocabulary I think is important. Maybe that maybe try everything if you think you won’t like it just to get it in that flavour vocabulary and experience.
Natalie MacLean (26:41):
Yeah, it helps to know what you don’t like. Just ordering from restaurant menu, oh I’m going to avoid the liver, thank you very much. That’s good. That narrows down the choices.
Mandy Naglich (26:53):
Then again, I thought I did not like Prosecco. I don’t like sweet things typically, but my husband has tricked me several times, ordering me glasses of Prosecco when we’re out. And I’m like oh this is pretty good. So challenge what you think you don’t like, too. Liver can be delicious.
Natalie MacLean (27:05):
Okay. Well maybe they’ll pair it with Prosecco or something [laughter]. I don’t know.
Mandy Naglich (27:09):
There you go.
Natalie MacLean (27:10):
I don’t know if that would work or not, but anyway. Now, I know you were a picky eater, but do you have a favourite childhood food that you can recall and today what would you pair it with? Wine. Which wine?
Mandy Naglich (27:18):
Yeah. I mean, like I said, I love a pork chop
Natalie MacLean
Oh yes.
Mandy Naglich
So we can stick with that and I think that’s a pretty low intensity food. Something if it was really nice and caramelized and had a really nice crust on it. I can see it going with something like maybe a really full-bodied Cava, like a sparkling Cava could be nice with that. As you can see, I really like sparkling wine and I also think you know how Cava has that more rough soda pop bubble to it? Usually that’s a nice kind of palate cleanser between bites of pork chop. So I think that could be nice. I think a little caramelization on the pork could bring forward some of those deeper bready notes of a Cava that could be a really lovely pairing. And two things that I like. That’s what I always say when it comes to pairing, there’s very few pairings that are so bad that it’s going to make you dislike what you’re eating.
Natalie MacLean
True.
Mandy Naglich
I think if you have two things that you like and they don’t overpower each other too much, it’s always going to be a pretty decent pairing.
Natalie MacLean (28:07):
Absolutely. Do you have a favourite wine book?
Mandy Naglich (28:09):
Yes. So I read almost everything electronically, so I have it on my Kindle here. But we actually are talking about it, the Widow
Natalie MacLean (28:15):
Oh yes, it’s by Tilar Mazzeo. Love this book.
Mandy Naglich (28:17):
Yes, and she has another great book about…
Natalie MacLean (28:20):
Chanel?
Mandy Naglich (28:20):
The Ritz Hotel. Yeah, the Ritz Hotel in Paris and about its occupation and one of the bartenders is a spy for the other side. It’s very, And it’s all factual, so it’s amazing. She finds these dramas that are surrounded by hospitality and food and drink and things like that and really tells them in such a compelling way. I love that book. And then Cork Dork is another one I really like.
Natalie MacLean (28:40):
Bianca Bosker and we’ll link to those in the show notes. Yeah, Tilar, I think she’s originally from the States. I think an English lit or creative writing professor, but she now makes wine in BC.
Mandy Naglich (28:54):
Oh, I didn’t know that.
Natalie MacLean (28:54):
I didn’t know that until I interviewed her.
Mandy Naglich (28:56):
I’ll try her wine. Yeah, I love that book so much.
Natalie MacLean
It’s a great story.
Mandy Naglilch
What we were talking about, the history of women in that industry and how much they changed it and didn’t follow expectations and now carves the way for the Champagne we love so much.
Natalie MacLean (29:11):
Absolutely. Do you have a most useful wine gadget that you’ve come across?
Mandy Naglich (29:16):
Yes. Oh yeah. So when I was in France two times ago. These lay flat wine closures for sparkling, they work so much better than any other…
Natalie MacLean
… That clampy kind…
Mandy Naglich
… wine closure I have. Yeah, and they have these two and they slip in your pocket.
Natalie MacLean
Convenient. So you’re going on a picnic or something.
Mandy Naglich
Yeah, I just love how they’re super flat, easy too, not that expensive. This one’s from GH Martel and Son’s Champagne House. But they work so well. They work on everything. Sake as well. With bottles. I bought five of them and I love them.
Natalie MacLean (29:49):
That’s great. We will link to those in the show notes as well as the books that you mentioned so that people can find them. And if you could share bottle of wine with any person outside the wine or beer world, who would that be and which wine would you open?
Mandy Naglich (30:01):
As a journalist, I went to school for broadcast journalism, but obviously wrote a book in print journalism. But Oprah for sure. I would love to just sit on her back porch with some wine, hear all of her stories of how she was coming up and said, I respect her so much. And she’s like the best interviewer out there.
Natalie MacLean (30:17):
Yeah, she’s great.
Mandy Naglich (30:17):
It’d be great to have a little…
Natalie MacLean (30:19):
And do you have a particular wine you need to open with Oprah?
Mandy Naglich (30:21):
That’s a good question. Yeah, we’d probably I guess we’ve got a theme here. So I would do maybe a Pommery or I love de Rozier Champagne as well. Something not too flavour intense, just something light to enjoy and celebrate hanging out with.
Natalie MacLean (30:34):
And if you could put up a billboard in downtown Manhattan, what would it say?
Mandy Naglich (30:39):
Something along the lines of Stop and Smell the Roses, but not so cliché maybe. I think that’s really the reason I wrote the book is all these artisans. We’re enjoying their wine, we’re enjoying their cheese, honey, anything. They spend so much time making this for us. And if you’re at a dinner or it’s sharing a cheese plate, you’re talking to your friends. We don’t ever really take a second to maybe stop and smell the wine, stop and smell the bubbles, and just appreciate the way they curate the bubbles and the glass of Champagne, whether like I said, it’s those big rough bubbles or those really soft bubbles. There’s so many aspects that these experts go through. And if you’re just drinking your wine and not taking a moment to taste it, I think you’re missing out on a lot.
Natalie MacLean (31:16):
Absolutely. A lot of pleasure. Well, maybe you could have a series of billboards. The first one would say, stop and smell the cinnamon. Then the next one would be stop and smell the bread. Then stop and smell the… so they get a smell vocabulary, aroma vocabulary. Is there anything that we haven’t covered that you wanted to mention, Mandy?
Mandy Naglich (31:34):
No, I think we did pretty good. I would say my whole philosophy is just learning these little facts like we were talking at the beginning that make drinks and hospitality more interesting, and I share a lot of those over on my Instagram drinks with Mandy. I have a fun one coming up for National Run Day tomorrow. But I think the more you know about those little facts you can share when you first open a wine or have a cocktail and say, oh, if you like cinnamon, you might like this wine a lot. I think just makes it so much more interesting. So that’s really.
Natalie MacLean (31:59):
It’s interesting and it builds anticipation in a good way. I think it’s a great way to wrap a story around whatever you’re eating or drinking. You mentioned Instagram, and we’ll link to it Drinks with Mandy. Do you want to mention a website or anything else in terms of how we can find you and the book online?
Mandy Naglich (32:14):
Yeah, so the book’s website is HowToTasteBook.com. My personal website’s MandyKN.com, but Instagram’s probably the best for finding me. But yeah, anywhere books are sold, you can find how to taste a Guide to Discovering Flavor and Savoring Life. I have a copy here. I should…
Natalie MacLean (32:29):
There it is.
Mandy Naglich (32:30):
… throw around. Yeah, and I’m excited. A couple of your listeners are going to get a copy that all signed.
Natalie MacLean (32:36):
Absolutely. So they just have to email me [email protected] to get a copy to two people listening to this or watching the video. Mandy, I’m going to say goodbye. It’s been a pleasure to chat with you. Absolutely fascinating. Great insights, stellar research, so I’m sure this book is going to do very, very well. So congratulations.
Mandy Naglich (32:55):
Thank you so much for having me. It’s fun to taste a couple of things together too.
Natalie MacLean (32:59):
Yeah, absolutely. Alright, I’ll say cheers and bye for now, but stay tuned.
(33:11):
Well, there you have it. I hope you enjoyed our chat with Mandy. Here are my takeaways. I was fascinated with Mandy’s explanation and demonstration of the differences between tasting wine and beer. I had assumed that the process would be very similar, if not the same, and was surprised to find out that it’s not. Number two, I also found her explanation of the similarities and differences between a cerone and a sommelier helpful. I didn’t realize that the world of beer is so diverse. Yes, my little wine snob eyes have been opened, or that cone’s are more involved in maintaining complex equipment as compared to Sommelier three, I fully support her focus on how retronasal aromas reintroduce you to the richer, deeper aromas of both beer and wine, and enable you to discover something new when you’re playing it backwards, as she says. And for, I also agree about using a tulip glass rather than the traditional champagne flute to better swirl and smell the wine.
(34:11):
In the show notes, you’ll find the full transcript of my conversation with Mandy, links to her website and books, the video versions of these conversations on Facebook and YouTube live, and where you can order my book online now no matter where you live. You can also find a link to my free online wine and food pairing class. It’s called The Five Wine and Food Pairing Mistakes That Can Ruin Your Dinner and How to Fix Them Forever at nataliemaclean.com/class. That’s all in the show notes at nataliemaclean.com/264.
Email me if you have a sip, tip, question or if you’ve read my book or are in the process of reading it at natalienataliemclean.com. I would love to hear from you. If you missed episode 175, go back and take a listen. I chat about sommelier versus cicerone with the host of the Drinks Adventure podcast, James Atkinson. I’ll share a short clip with you now to whet your appetite?
Natalie MacLean
What is the difference between a wine sommelier and a beer sommelier or cicerone, apart from the type of alcoholic beverage?
James Atkinson (35:18):
The title sommelier is not trademarked like Cicerone. No one can call himself that legally without having completed it.
Natalie MacLean (35:29):
Who started The Cicerone Organization?
James Atkinson (35:32):
Ray Daniels, a beer professional, got sick of going out to bars and being served a beer in a dirty glass. The beer itself might’ve been sitting in the keg for too long. It was tired. If you get a bottle of wine, it can withstand a little bit of abuse. But beer, once it’s brewed, it starts degrading immediately. People have this idea that a can of beer is like a can of food that you put it on the shelf and it doesn’t change, but that’s really not correct. So Ray was like, we need structured education for professionals.
Natalie MacLean (36:13):
If you like this episode, please email or tell one friend about it this week, especially someone who’d be interested in the wines, beers, tips, and stories we shared. It’s easy to find my podcast. Just tell them to search for Natalie MacLean Wine on their favourite podcast app.
You won’t want to miss next week when we chat with Amanda Barnes, author of the South American Wine Guide, who will join us from her home in Mendoza, Argentina. Thank you for taking the time to join me here. I hope something great is in your glass this week, perhaps a bubbly or a beer in a white wine glass.
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