Why are Languedoc Wines Capturing Worldwide Attention? Rosemary George Tells the Story

Natalie MacLean
Feb12th

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Introduction

What makes the Languedoc particularly well-suited for organic viticulture? How have the wines of the Languedoc evolved since the 70s? How do the wines of the Languedoc region of southern France differ from neighbouring Roussillon?

In this episode of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, I’m chatting with Rosemary George

You can find the wines we discussed here.

 

Giveaway

Two of you are going to win a copy of her terrific book, Wines of the Languedoc.

 

How to Win

To qualify, all you have to do is email me at [email protected] and let me know that you’ve posted a review of the podcast.

It takes less than 30 seconds: On your phone, scroll to the bottom here, where the reviews are, and click on “Tap to Rate.”

After that, scroll down a tiny bit more and click on “Write a Review.” That’s it!

I’ll choose two people randomly from those who contact me.

Good luck!

 

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Highlights

  • What was it like becoming one of the first women to earn the Master of Wine designation?
  • How did Rosemary’s journey into wine writing begin?
  • What inspired Rosemary’s initial fascination with the Languedoc region?
  • What do you need to know about the Languedoc region in terms of geography and how it fits into the bigger picture of French wine?
  • Why is the Languedoc particularly well suited to organic viticulture?
  • How does Rosemary’s book, Wines of the Languedoc, compare to other books about the region?
  • What are the classic grape varieties and wines of the Languedoc?
  • How does the Garrigue influence Languedoc wines?
  • How does the Languedoc’s maritime climate compare to other wine regions in France?
  • What are the key distinctions between the Languedoc and Roussillon regions?
  • Who are some of the more interesting winemakers that Rosemary has met in the Languedoc?
  • How are Languedoc winemakers responding to new challenges due to climate change?

 

Key Takeaways

  • What makes the Languedoc particularly well-suited for organic viticulture?
    • As Rosemary notes, the Languedoc has a lot of advantages for organic viticulture, especially the winds. So if it rains, the winds dry everything up pretty quickly. Rot is not usually a problem in the Languedoc. She adds that vintages are becoming more irregular than they were, but certainly it’s a lot easier to be organic in the Languedoc than it is in say Chablis.
  • How have the wines of the Languedoc evolved since the 70s?
    • For red wine, Rosemary says, you have Grenache, Mourvèdre, Syrah, Carignan and Cinsault. Syrah and Mourvèdre were grape varieties that were planted in the 70s, 80s. It’s what they called the cépages améliorateurs, the improving grape varieties. It was thought the Carignan needed to have something else added to it. Now, I think there’s a trend. People realize how good Carignan is, especially with climate change coming into effect. It will make some really good wine. There’s a bit of spice, bit of red fruit, there’s a bit of freshness, there’s some acidity and as well as tannin.
  • How do the wines of the Languedoc region of southern France differ from neighbouring Roussillon?
    • The two regions are completely different, Rosemary observes, because Roussillon was part of Spain until the Treaty of the Pyrenees. They see themselves as Northern Catalonia. The Pyrenees for Roussillon is a unifying thing, and it does not divide them from Spain, it unites them. Whereas Languedoc speaks Occitan, and it has a different history. And the wine makes them different because the key grape variety of Roussillon is Grenache, and that was also used for Vin Doux Naturel, fortified wines that like Banyuls and Maury and Rivesaltes. They’re matured in barrel and last for for years. One of the great wines in the world and totally underappreciated. The Languedoc doesn’t have that tradition to the same extent.

 

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The Languedoc has a lot of advantages for organic viticulture. - Rosemary George Rosemary George Click to tweet

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Now people realize how good Carignan is, especially with climate change coming into effect. - Rosemary George Rosemary George Click to tweet

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Carignan and Cinsault work rather well in the Languedoc. - Rosemary George Rosemary George Click to tweet

 

About Rosemary George MW

Rosemary George has been in the wine industry for 52 years. She passed the prestigious Master of Wine exam in 1979, making her one of the first female MWs in the world. In 1981, she started writing about wine as a freelancer and has subsequently authored fourteen books, including those on New Zealand, Tuscany, Chablis, Faugeres, the Languedoc and Roussillon.

 

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Transcript

Natalie MacLean 00:00:00 How do the wines of the Languedoc region of southern France differ from neighbouring Roussillon? How have the wines of the Languedoc evolved since the 1970s? And what makes the Languedoc particularly well suited for organic viticulture? In today’s episode, you’ll hear the stories and tips that answer those questions during our chat with Rosemary George, author of the terrific book The Wines of the Languedoc. By the end of our conversation, you’ll also discover what it was like becoming one of the first women to earn a Master of Wine designation. How Rosemary’s journey into wine writing began. What inspired Rosemary’s initial fascination with the Languedoc region. What you need to know about the Languedoc region in terms of geography, and how it fits into the bigger picture of French wine. How Rosemary’s book, The Wines of the Languedoc, compares and differs to other books about the region. How does garrigue influence Languedoc wines. And hey, what is garrigue? How does the maritime climate compare to other wine regions in France. Who are some of the more interesting winemakers that Rosemary has met in the region. And how are Languedoc winemakers responding to new challenges due to climate change.

Natalie MacLean 00:01:26 Do you have a thirst to learn about wine? Do you love stories about wonderfully obsessive people, hauntingly beautiful places, and amusingly awkward social situations? Well, that’s the blend here on the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast. I’m your host, Natalie MacLean, and each week I share with you unfiltered conversations with celebrities in the wine world, as well as confessions from my own tipsy journey as I write my third book on this subject. I’m so glad you’re here. Now, pass me that bottle, please, and let’s get started.

Natalie MacLean 00:02:08 Welcome to episode 324. Recently I’ve been interviewed on CTV National News, BNN Bloomberg and others about possible tariffs on U.S. wines and spirits in response to U.S. tariffs. I should say that I’m recording this on February 2nd, and I hope it doesn’t happen at all. As I discussed on CTV News Montreal, I see this as an opportunity to expand sales of Canadian wines, ciders, and spirits. And I do not mean this in a protectionist way. Quebec’s SAQ stores, for example, sell almost 90% imported wines and spirits. Of the 10% that’s either made in Canada or bottled here, the latter being blends of Canadian and international grapes, only 0.4% are VQA wines made in this country. There’s definitely an unmet demand given the large percentage of wine tourism both in Quebec and to Ontario, that is from Quebec residents. And I’ll bet Ontario residents also account for a large number of tourists to Quebec as well. Not only could the LCBO and other liquor boards across the country take this opportunity to increase choice on the shelves, but they could also implement the successful direct to consumer model that British Columbia and Alberta recently legalized where the two provinces are now shipping product directly to consumers across their borders. I’d love to see that especially since the wines made in each province are so different from each other. And the beauty of wine is in its wild diversity of taste.

Natalie MacLean 00:03:44 Every bottle of 100% Canadian wine or spirits contributes $90 to our economy, versus just $16 for an imported bottle, injecting more than $20 billion every year and creating 85,000 jobs, often in rural areas on family run farms. And of course, all the spin off businesses like tourism and hotels and travel and so on. In a time of economic uncertainty, there’s no reason not to open our own interprovincial borders. Come on people. To strengthen our economy and to increase the incredible range of flavours that makes wine so exciting. Meanwhile, I’m reviewing my favorite wines on Instagram at Natalie MacLean wine. Connect with me there.

Natalie MacLean 00:04:30 Back to today’s guest. Two of you will win copies of Rosemary’s beautiful book, The Wines of Languedoc. All you have to do is email me and let me know that you’d like to win. I’ll choose two winners randomly from those who contact me at [email protected]  I’m announcing two winners of the Wines of Greece book by Konstantinos Lazarakis, who was our guest last week. So drumroll. Congratulations to Rocco Fasano of Maple, Ontario, and to Julian Giroux, who splits his time between Taiwan and Bordeaux. We also have one final winner of the book Press for Champagne, and it’s Matthew Germain from Montreal. In other bookish news, if you’re reading the paperback or e-book or listening to the audiobook of my memoir Wine Witch on Fire: Rising from the Ashes of Divorce, Defamation and Drinking Too Much – and national bestseller and is one of Amazon’s best books of the year – I’d love to hear from you at [email protected]. I’d be happy to send you a beautifully designed, personally signed book plates for the copies you buy or give as gifts. I’ll put a link in the show notes to all retailers worldwide at nataliemaclean.com/324. The paperback usually arrives within a day or two of ordering in the book and audiobook are instantly available.

Natalie MacLean 00:05:53 Okay, on with the shoe. Rosemary George has been in the wine industry for 52 years. She passed the prestigious Master of Wine exam in 1979, making her one of the first women to do so. In 1981, she started writing about wine as a freelancer and has subsequently authored 14 books, including those on New Zealand, Tuscany, Chablis for the Languedoc, and Roussillon. And she joins us now from her home in London, England. Welcome, Rosemary. We’re so glad you could be here with us.

Rosemary George 00:06:32 Great to be here. Natalie. Nice to meet you online.

Natalie MacLean 00:06:35 Yes, exactly. This is how most of us meet these days, it seems.

Rosemary George 00:06:39 It’s good to put the face for the name.

Natalie MacLean 00:06:41 So first, before we dive into the Languedoc, as one of the first women in the world to become a Master of Wine, how did that shape your perspective on the wine industry, or how you wrote about it, or any other aspect you want to mention?

Rosemary George 00:06:57 I fell into the wine trade as a secretary. Lured into the wine trade by an offer of a job as a secretary, plus a glass of The Wine Society Champagne. The largest, longest, oldest mail order company was mail order company. Obviously now email company in England. And I’d been an enthusiastic member of London University’s Wine Society. So wine seemed to be a good career. But as a secretary, I worked out pretty quickly that I was not suited to secretarial work, so the Master of Wine for me was an escape. You know, prove yourself. And women had to prove themselves then. The wine trade was very male dominated back in the 70s.

Natalie MacLean 00:07:31 Right. Absolutely. And that’s quite the way to prove yourself. As we know, the pass rate for that exam is notoriously low, like 10%. It’s a very, very difficult.

Rosemary George 00:07:40 The trick about the exam that you have to write as well as taste. So there are people who are good at writing essays. People who are brilliant tasters, who cannot write an essay to save their lives. But see the two skills are needed. I think that’s what makes it particularly challenging. But I’d hate to be doing the exam now because you have to write a dissertation as well.

Natalie MacLean 00:07:59 I’m sure you do well with all those books. So how did your journey into wine writing begin then?

Rosemary George 00:08:04 Oh, well, I was sacked quite simply  before it was made redundant. I worked for a small one man band, wine merchant, and he realised quite quickly I was not what he needed. And he was quite right. And at 30 years on, I did admit to him that sacking me was the best career move I ever made, because that’s what led to writing. I thought, oh, I get another job, but I didn’t. But I got a book contract with two phone calls.

Natalie MacLean 00:08:28 Wow. That’s extraordinary.

Rosemary George 00:08:30 Really good thing that happened was the first time my husband made, he’s very civilized. Sent off to see a placement agent to help you plan your career. And this woman who became a great friend, did the psychometric assessments on Christopher. And he very cheekily said, could Rosemary come and see you too? I walk in to see her. We’ve not been before. I’ve hardly sat down before. She says to me. The first thing I have to say. Don’t ever get another office job ever again. You’re complete disaster in office. I went, wow. License to play.

Natalie MacLean 00:08:57 I often say I’m too feral for an office. I could never work.

Rosemary George 00:09:01 I couldn’t believe it, you know, just from ticking boxes. And then she went on to say that I actually had a very good profile for a self-employed person, because I was highly motivated and responded to deadlines, and then that I was not especially imaginative. So, I haven’t got a novel in my head, but I’m quite creative, so I can write about something I know so.

Natalie MacLean 00:09:19 Interesting the difference between creative and imaginative.

Rosemary George 00:09:22 Yes, it’s quite interesting.  It’s a difference of… so that’s kind of how it all happened really.

Natalie MacLean 00:09:27 Well, great. And so I know you’ve written other books, but what prompted your initial fascination with the Languedoc region? And maybe paint a picture for us as to where you were, what triggered the idea for this book?

Rosemary George 00:09:38 My first book, Chablis, was published and I remember the launch party. Julian Jeffs, who was a QC what is now a KC,   comes up to me and asks me legally phrased questions about how he’s going to be spending the next few months, years, whatever. And he said, I come clean. I would like you to write French country wines for Faber and Faber, prestigious publishers, you know. And I thought, oh, wow. So of course I said yes, not thinking that French country wines actually entailed a hell of a lot of France and everything that wasn’t Bordeaux, Burgundy, Loire, Champagne, and the Rhone. And of course, the Languedoc formed a large part of that. So I was going to the Languedocat the end of the 1980s, when things were starting to happen. It was very much dominated by cooperatives still at that time.

Natalie MacLean 00:10:21 And by cooperatives, so many growers contributing to a centralized winery facility?

Rosemary George 00:10:27 Yes, it’s very much that system. But there were some interesting individual wine growers. And I can remember actually the last meeting I had for French country wines and I was about to get the night train from Narbonne to Paris. So I had lunch with a women who at that stage was the export director for a large group of cooperatives in the Languedoc. And we actually talked about the fact that there was a book to be written. But then there was a bit of a pause, but I got around to doing that, which was the wines of the south of France, which were Banyuls to…. So from the first vineyard in France after Spain to the last vineyard before you came to Italy. And then so that’s really what led to my real interest in the Languedoc was researching that and also led to us buying a house there.

Natalie MacLean 00:11:12 Absolutely. That’s a huge area. Like draw us a map visually. Like how big is it compared to other French regions? Where is it on the map in southern France?

Rosemary George 00:11:22 So this would be precisely the Languedoc. So French country wines covered Roussillon and Provence as well. A few years later, I wrote the Languedoc. It’s the three department of the Aude, the Héault, and part of the Gard. So city wise, you’re going from Carcassonne in the west through to Nimes in the east. So it’s a kind of amphitheatre of the middle of France and the Mediterranean coast, where the main cities would be Carcassonne, Narbonne, Bézier, Montpellier and the Nimes. I’m going to say it’s at least 200 000 hectares, but it is declining. It is huge. I mean, they say it is larger than Bordeaux, it’s larger than Australia, it’s larger than umpteen other countries’ total production

Natalie MacLean 00:12:04 Oh my goodness. Wow.

Rosemary George 00:12:05 And with a sort of significant quality range. And there’s a very big. There’s top quality and very basic.

Natalie MacLean 00:12:12 And we’re going to get into that for sure. The changes and so on. So can you recount one really memorable experience from your early visits to the Languedoc?

Rosemary George 00:12:20 I suppose early visits. What actually stands out? Well, I suppose going to see… which was one of the pioneers. Bought this property as a holiday house and then was told he got fantastic soil. Thought got to do something about this. And he had the chutzpah to ask a price that was higher than any of the other wines in the restaurant wine list. You kind of saw is got about ten times more expensive than anybody else who think, wow. Why? But you could understand. He was making a statement saying these wines are of great quality, which they were. And he was a pioneer. I have a memory of tasting with George Bertrand who was Gérard Bertrand’s father. And he was one of the pioneers of putting wine in barrel and he gave me a vertical tasting of ten vintages of his Corbière from 1978 to 1988.

Natalie MacLean 00:13:07 Wow. What did they do before then? If they weren’t barreling it?

Rosemary George 00:13:10 Well, they had the very large barrels. That’s what they call the foudres, which are really. Oh, you know, you’ve got cement vats, steel, fibreglass, whatever. But actually for the long drop to put wine in the barrel was, you know, that was quite pioneering in the late 80s. So actually Gérard took over very suddenly. He made his name as the first of all. He was an international rugby player.

Natalie MacLean 00:13:31 Yeah. He’d be a fascinating person.

Rosemary George 00:13:33 When you think now, and he’s gone on to be one of the sort of key people in the Languedoc…

Natalie MacLean 00:13:37 Absolutely. And I was just talking about his wine for something else I was doing. And over the past 20 years, he’s converted all 17 estates to biodynamic farming. Way beyond organic. That is incredible. It’s an expensive process. It’s time consuming. But that’s an amazing feat for such a large collection of wineries, under his umbrella, to all be biodynamic.

Rosemary George 00:14:01 The Languedoc does have a lot of advantages for organic viticulture because you have the winds, so if it rains, the winds dry everything up pretty quickly.

Natalie MacLean 00:14:10 Dry the grapes so that there’s less rot or less risk.

Rosemary George 00:14:12 Dry the leaves. So the rot is not usually a problem in the Languedoc. Having said that, it can be because I think the vintages are becoming more irregular than they were, but certainly it’s a hell of a lot easier to be organic in the Languedoc than it is to say, Chablis.

Natalie MacLean 00:14:25 Okay. And the winds. Is the Mistral one of them? The big wind?

Rosemary George 00:14:30 It is the Mistral. It is the Tramontane. It’s a drying north wind. Then you get the vente marin, the sea winds. And those are the ones that bring humidity. But normally it’s a north wind that’s dry.

Natalie MacLean 00:14:40 Dry. I’ve heard the Mistral can drive people crazy. It’s so relentless.

Rosemary George 00:14:45 Yes. They always say this about the Aude department is windier in the Aude than in the the Héault. And then you get down into the Pyrenees Orientale of Roussillon. It’s even windier. And it really kind of winds can be very fierce. 200km an hour is not unknown.

Natalie MacLean 00:14:59 And so tell us in a nutshell what this book is about, what makes it different from, say, other books if they exist on the Languedoc?

Rosemary George 00:15:06 So my starting point was, having written about the south of France at the end of the last century, I wanted to concentrate on the Languedoc. What’s happening in this century? So I read about quite a lot of the new producers who had happened, who have set up since say, 2000.  I cover the whole of the Languedoc, and that goes from Malpère and Limoux, which are all around Carcassonne. And that’s where the book is very, actually very precisely defined. Then as you move west, you get to Nimes. It becomes much more blurred because you’ve got… and Nimes are actually part of the Rhone valley, but you’ve got Pays de Cervin, which is in the Languedoc, whereas the parallel appellation is part of the Rhone Valley administratively, so that’s all a bit blurred. But I mean, for me, the heart of the Languedoc is, if you like, Corbieres, Minervois, Faugères, Saint-Chinian, Pique-Saint-Loup, and the vineyards around Montpellier.

Natalie MacLean 00:15:58 Right. Those are important appellations. What makes them…

Rosemary George 00:16:01 That’s another good one that shouldn’t be forgotten.

Natalie MacLean 00:16:04 And what makes them so important to the Languedoc? Is that because where they are geographically? Is it because the wines are really representative of the Languedoc as a whole?

Rosemary George 00:16:14 They’re representative of the Languedoc. They use the classic grape varieties of the Languedoc and come up with spicy, Languedoc flavours. And they are the heart of the Languedoc.

Natalie MacLean 00:16:23 And the classic grapes being Carignan and….

Rosemary George 00:16:26 And well, for red wine, you’ve got Grenache, Mourvèdre, Syrah, Carignan, and Cinsault.

Natalie MacLean 00:16:32 Big reds.

Rosemary George 00:16:33 White wines have more variety. But the Syrah and Mourvèdre grape varieties that were planted in the 70s and 80s is what they call the cépage améliorateurs. The improving grape varieties. It was thought that the Carignan needed to have something else added to it. Now I think there’s a trend people realize how good Carignan is, especially with climate change coming into effect, that it actually does very well. In the vineyard and the yields are not too high. It will make some really good wine.

Natalie MacLean 00:17:02 How would you describe typical Carignan? You said spicy.

Rosemary George 00:17:06 Yes. I think there’s a little bit of spice. A bit of red fruit. There’s a bit of freshness. There’s some acidity and as well as tannin and some, you know, some freshness.

Natalie MacLean 00:17:14 And how do you define freshness? That’s a word I hear a lot, and I like it, but I find it like people have different definitions.

Rosemary George 00:17:21 I think to me it’s a lift on the finish and it leaves you wanting another glass or another taste. How about that?

Natalie MacLean 00:17:27 Well, a lot of wines do that. I don’t know if they’re all fresh for me, but I’ll have one.

Rosemary George 00:17:32 If it’s heavy, you are less charmed by it.

Natalie MacLean 00:17:37 Okay. that’s a good definition. And you also talk very evocatively about garrigue. Tell us what that is and how it comes through.

Rosemary George 00:17:47 Well, the garrigue is the scrubland of the shrubs of the Languedoc. It’s herbs. It’s things like rosemary, juniper, thyme. It is lots of sort of small vegetation. In May you will get. The hillsides will be flower with lots of sisters. They’re plants with quite a lot of scents. And so those kind of find their way into, I think, in my mind into the wines of the Languedoc. And with the warm sunshine, it’s quite the smells come off.

Natalie MacLean 00:18:17 Yes,  it’s beautiful. And how does the Languedoc sort of maritime climate compared to inland areas.? How does that affect?

Rosemary George 00:18:27 Well, now you’ve got the coastal plains, which of course were developed very much when phylloxera hit. And they were trying to…. there was sort of flood irrigation to try and kill off the phylloxera loss. And of course, and it’s easy cultivation. So with that, a lot of the vineyards on the higher up altitude were given up. And now, of course, there’s a trend in moving back up into the hills, which is where the appellation Terrasses du Larzac comes into play, because that was. It’s a new appellation, which includes villages that in 1985, when the Coteaux-du-Languedoc appellation was created. They were deemed to be too cool. Now, of course, with people looking for freshness want cooler climates and the same you could say about Pic-Saint-Loup again is one of the cooler, more northern bits of the Languedoc.

Natalie MacLean 00:19:09 And now they’re coming into their own as things warm up. Terrasses. I’ve heard that. Does that mean terraces? Because vineyards are often planted on terraced vineyards, like graduated.

Rosemary George 00:19:21 I mean, there probably were the remains of old terraced vineyards, and a lot of those terraces have probably disappeared.

Natalie MacLean 00:19:28 So how would you define the Languedoc’s identity compared to Roussillon? They’re often grouped together.

Rosemary George 00:19:35 They are completely different because Roussillon was part of Spain until the Treaty of the Pyrenees in 1659. And the Languedoc is French. I mean, Roussillon speaks Catalan. They see themselves as Northern Catalonia. That the Pyrenees, for Roussillon, is a unifying because it does not divide them from Spain. It unites them. Whereas Languedoc speaks Occitan, and it has a different history. And the wine, because the key grape variety of Roussillon is Grenache, and that was also used for Vin Doux Naturel. There’s very much a tradition for Vin Doux in Roussillon, which you have very much less in the Languedoc.

Natalie MacLean 00:20:11 And Vin Doux is what, for those who don’t know.

Rosemary George 00:20:14 It’s the fortified wines that like Banyuls and Maurys and Rivesaltes. Wonderful wines. If you don’t know about those, they are the ones that are matured in barrel and glass for years. They are old. Rivesaltes, Delicious, one of the great wines in the world and totally under-appreciated. But the Languedoc doesn’t have that tradition to the same extent.

Natalie MacLean 00:20:34 Okay, Roussillon, I’ve got to remember how to pronounce that because it has two L’s in it, but we don’t say the L’s, obviously.

Rosemary George 00:20:40 I’ve just come back from Argentina where they say double L. I was suddenly in this new grape variety Semillon as opposed to Semillon.

Natalie MacLean 00:20:47 Interesting.

Rosemary George 00:20:48 Yeah. Double L’s can be pronounced in different ways.

Natalie MacLean 00:20:51 It’s good to know, especially if you want to say it correctly in a restaurant. And how would the wines of the Languedoc differ from, say, other Mediterranean wine regions along southern Italy and Spain?

Rosemary George 00:21:03 I think completely different grape varieties. So having said that, of course Grenache and Carignan come up. Their origins are Spanish, I suppose its climate, the one link with Mediterranean Italy would be Vermentino or Roll, as you’re supposed to call it in France.

Natalie MacLean 00:21:20 And that’s a white grape, right?

Rosemary George 00:21:22 That’s a white grape variety. But you’re in southern Italy, it’s things like Nero d’Aovla and Primitivo and things like this. I think of Spain as being probably richer, more alcohol. If you think like Priorat is more oak perhaps.

Natalie MacLean 00:21:40 Stronger oak aging tradition for sure in Spain.

Rosemary George 00:21:44 I don’t really know very much about Spain, I have to say. So I’m probably.

Natalie MacLean 00:21:47 You’re staying in your lane. No problem. Share with us maybe one of the most interesting winemakers you met in the region.

Rosemary George 00:21:57 There’s a lovely woman in Faugère. She’s a great friend, but I remember the first time I went to see her was really funny because first of all, it was my surname is George.

Rosemary George 00:22:05 She kind of got a bit confused. You know, s she thought she was going to be seeing a bloke and she thought she was going to get rid of him in ten minutes. I was still there two hours later.

Natalie MacLean 00:22:15 And that’s why you are friends.

Rosemary George 00:22:17 And she was doing all sorts of things. I mean, she had not yet got her Faugère vineyard. She now she’s now very much settled in Faugère. And her daughter has taken over the vineyard that’s the other side of the hills from Faugère and in the Haute Vallée de Vallée de l’Orb . So there she was making some delicious Pinot Noir, which is a great variety you don’t find commonly in the Languedoc because it’s too hot. And she also had… a little bit of Riesling and she’s a very thoughtful winemaker and I just this sort of. It was a brilliant afternoon.

Natalie MacLean 00:22:50 And again, just sort of defining is Faugère neighbouring to Languedoc or part of the Languedoc?

Rosemary George 00:22:57 Part of the Languedoc. I’m very enthusiastic about this project because my French home is two villages away.

Natalie MacLean 00:23:02. It’s your second home, right? You live there part of the year?

Rosemary George 00:23:05 Well, with Brexit it’s a bit complicated, but say two, three months of the year possibly.

Natalie MacLean 00:23:10 Right. It must have been a strong advantage to you in writing about the region to have a home there.

Rosemary George 00:23:15 We just sort of discovered the region very much when I was writing the wines of the south of France, because in the course of that, we were staying shall I say from… Provence around to Perpignan. Then we focused on the fact that the area we really liked was Pessinasse-Clemont-Leroux., which is sort of Faugère-Saint-Chinian wine wise. Because we thought about perhaps having a house outside London. If you wake up in London, it’s pouring the rain. It’s going to be pouring with rain in Sussex. But if you get on a plane to Montpellier, an hour and a half flying time, as opposed to an hour and a half driving time, the weather’s likely to be better. Not always, but likely to be.

Natalie MacLean 00:23:47 Oh, that’s optimistic. That’s great. I moved there too if I could. Was there one particularly challenging interview that you did while you were writing the book, researching it?

Rosemary George 00:23:59 I think most of the winegrowers are very happy to talk. One problem I had, I would have loved to have interviewed Laurent Vaillé from La Grange des Pères, but he just never responded to his interview.

Natalie MacLean 00:24:10 Is he famous in the region? Why did you want to interview him?

Rosemary George 00:24:12 Yes. Now he’s died. He was very, you know. He was one of the pioneers, neighbour of Massiac. But he was rather reclusive and just… I had seen him earlier, but this time he just, you know, silence.

Natalie MacLean 00:24:26 Yeah well, I know what you’re talking about. Some winemakers just don’t come out of their cave.

Rosemary George 00:24:32 Yes. Most of them I think, if they decided that you’re serious and…

Natalie MacLean 00:24:38 Yes. Now you’ve mentioned climate change a few times. Things are warming up around the globe. How are winemakers in the Languedoc responding to that challenge? What are they doing? What are they changing?

Rosemary George 00:24:49 I think there’s research on different grape varieties. You know that Syrah was introduced as a cépage améliorateur, but actually Syrah in very hot weather doesn’t actually perform that well. It gets rather sort of too bit ripened and jammy and sort of too bit tapenade black olive sort of characters. I think one of the sort of experimentation is what other grape varieties might be and also the realization that actually Carignan and Cinsault do actually work rather well in the Languedoc. I think with climate change, not necessarily. Yes, it’s getting hotter. I mean, Roussillon is the area that’s really suffering from lack of water this year. The Languedoc is not being so bad. You could irrigate on the plains, but when the hillside vineyards, it’s too steep to irrigate. In any case, there’s no really no water available.

Rosemary George 00:25:35 I think the other thing is that the weather is actually less regular. You know, once upon a time I’ve been at school, I thought Mediterranean climate was hot. Dry summers, mild, wet winters. The Languedoc could expect a storm amongst the two bank holidays of the summer. So the 14th of July and the 15th of August, there was likely to be  a bit of a downpour and that refreshes everything. But these days that doesn’t always happen. Now, in this year, it’s actually been quite complicated because the weather was a bit cooler in September. So they’ve had a rather drawn out harvest, you know, waiting for things to ripen. And then some drought earlier in the year. So it’s. And then they have had frost. I mean, I go to Chablis quite frequent. I’ve written a lot about Chablis, but the one time I’ve actually seen frost damaged vineyards was in the Languedoc. I’m out walking, I knew the temperature dropped the previous night and I thought, what are all these sort of burnt brown leaves? That’s when I realized frost, a sign that one side of the road had been frosted, on the other hand, and it’s a horrible sight to see. And they’re rather hazardous hailstorms, which again is a horrible thing to see in a vineyard that looks like a troop  of goats has gone through, but actually it’s all in the end it’s everything. All sort of leaves and twigs on the ground.

Natalie MacLean 00:26:44 Yeah, they’re saying it’s global weirding now, like just these weird episodes of…

Rosemary George 00:26:48 I think it’s warming  I think in London our rain is much heavier than it used to be for instance. So sort of changes.  More erratic.

Natalie MacLean 00:26:58 Absolutely.

Natalie MacLean 00:27:00 Well, there you have it. I hope you enjoyed our chat with Rosemary. Here are my takeaways. Number one, how do the wines of the Languedoc region of southern France differ from neighbouring Roussillon? The two regions are completely different, Rosemary observes, because Roussillon was part of Spain until the Treaty of the Pyrenees. They see themselves as part of Northern Catalonia. The Pyrenees, those mountains, for Roussillon are actually a unifying thing, and it does not divide them for Spain at least in their minds. It unites them. Whereas Languedoc speaks Occitan and has a different history, the wine also makes them different because the key grape variety of Roussillon is Grenache. And that was also used for Vin Doux Natural, the fortified wines like Banyuls, Maury, Rivesaltes they matured in barrel and last for years. Rosemary is a huge fan of them and they’re one of the great wines of the world, she says. Totally underappreciated. The Languedoc doesn’t have that tradition to the same extent.

Natalie MacLean 00:28:06 Number two, what makes Languedoc particularly well-suited for organic viticulture? As Rosemarie notes, the Languedoc has a lot of advantages for organic viticulture, especially because of the winds. So if it rains, the winds dry up everything pretty quickly. And, of course, grapes rot when there’s moisture between them. Rot is usually not a problem in this region and, she adds, that vintages though are becoming more irregular than they were. But it’s certainly still a lot easier to be organic in Languedoc than, say, in northern regions of France, like Chablis.

Natalie MacLean 00:28:44 And number three, how have the wines of the Languedoc evolved since the 70s? For red wine, Rosemary says you have Grenache, Mourvèdre, Syrah,  Carignan and Cinsault. Syrah and Mourvèdre were grape varieties that were planted only in the 1970s or 80s. It’s what they called cépages améliorateurs or the improving great varieties. It was thought that Carignan needed to have something else added to it. Now I think there’s a trend, she says, because people realize just how good Carignan is on its own, especially with climate change coming into effect. It will make some really good wine, she says. There’s a bit of spice, red fruit, freshness, and some acidity, as well as balancing tannin.

Natalie MacLean 00:29:23 In the show notes, you’ll find a full transcript of my conversation with Rosemary, links to her website and books, the video versions of these conversations on Facebook and YouTube live, and where you can order my book online now no matter where you live. If you missed episode ten, go back and take a listen. I chat about wines for seduction, a vine romance for Valentine’s Day. I’ll share a short clip with you now to whet your appetite.

Natalie MacLean 00:29:50 The research firm Cyber Pulse found that 59% of women ages 21 to 39 wish their sweethearts would give them wine, not candy, on Valentine’s Day. And London UK’s Sunday Times reported that wine tastings rank above all other venues for finding a date. The reason? Wine means spending time together. In fact, I can’t think of an unromantic wine. However, when it comes to choosing the wines to celebrate Valentine’s Day, there are certain bottles that hold a special place in my heart. These are delicious wines that I can depend on year after year, and dependability and loyalty count for a lot when it comes to both wine and love.

Natalie MacLean 00:30:54 You won’t want to miss next week when we continue our chat with Rosemary. Same bat time, same bat channel. If you liked this episode or learned even one teensy tiny thing from it, please email or tell one friend about the podcast this week, especially someone you know who would be interested in learning more about the wines from Languedoc.

Natalie MacLean 00:31:14 It’s easy to find my podcast. Just tell them to search for Natalie MacLean Wine on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, their favourite podcast app, or they can listen to the show on my website at nataliemaclean.com/podcast. Email me if you have a sip, tip, question, or would like to win one of two copies of Rosemary’s book, or if you’ve read mine or are listening to it. I’d also love to hear your thoughts about this episode. Were you surprised about Languedoc wines? Have you tried them? Do you have a favourite one? Email me at [email protected]. In the show notes, you’ll find a link to take a free online food and wine pairing class with me called The Five Wine and Food Pairing Mistakes That Can Ruin Your Dinner and How to Fix Them Forever. at nataliemaclean.com/class. And that’s all in the show notes at nataliemaclean.com/324. So glad we’re coming to the end because I’m almost losing my voice here.

Natalie MacLean 00:32:12 Thank you for taking the time to join me here. I hope something great is in your class, perhaps… let me think about it…. a wine from the Languedoc. You don’t want to miss one juicy episode of this podcast, especially the secret full bodied bonus episodes that I don’t announce on social media. So subscribe for free now at nataliemaclean.com/subscribe. Meet me here next week. Cheers.

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