Exploring Piemonte Wines Beyond Barolo and Barbaresco with David Way

Natalie MacLean
Dec11th

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Introduction

Are you curious about the wines of Piemonte in northern Italy? Why are Barolo and Barbaresco often compared with Burgundy? What makes Nebbiolo unique as a grape?

In this episode of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, I’m chatting with David Way, author of the new book The Wines of Piemonte.

You can find the wines we discussed here.

 

Giveaway

Two of you will win a copy of his terrific new book, The Wines of Piemonte.

 

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Join the live-stream video of this conversation on Wednesday at 7 pm eastern on Instagram Live Video, Facebook Live Video or YouTube Live Video.

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Highlights

  • What inspired David to make country wines as an undergraduate at Oxford University?
  • Why did David decide to focus his book on the Piemonte region of Italy?
  • What makes David’s book, The Wines of Piemonte, different from other Italian wine books?
  • How does Piemonte compare geographically to other well-known Italian wine regions?
  • Why does the Piemonte region have so many wine denominations and what are the challenges this presents?
  • What approach does David recommend for understanding Piemonte denominations?
  • Why is Piemonte often compared to Burgundy?
  • What are the unique qualities of Piemonte’s signature grape, Nebbiolo?
  • How has Nebbiolo evolved from the “tannic monster” of the past?
  • Which qualities make Nebbiolo a great grape for warmer climates?
  • How do Nebbiolo and Barbera grapes compare?
  • Should you decant your wines?

 

Key Takeaways

  • Are you curious about the wines of Piemonte in northern Italy?
    • As David explains, much has been written about the Barolo and Barbaresco appellations of Piedmonte, but very little about the rest of the region. These two world-class wines overshadow the rest of Piedmonte massively. David’s book that goes into detail about all the other 58 denominations. He spent a lot of time traveling and interviewing people not only about these unique places but also about local grape varieties that don’t grow anywhere else.
  • Why are Barolo and Barbaresco often compared with Burgundy?
    • David says that Barolo and Barbaresco have many small plots owned by many small growers so in that sense, it’s very much like burgundy. It’s also similar in that tiny differences of altitude, soil type, vineyard orientation, and wind direction make big differences in the final wine. Just like in Burgundy, you can walk 50 meters from one vineyard to another and the wines made from those vineyards will taste different. The regions are also both single variety wines, aging in wood is important to both of them and the parcels of vineyard are tiny. There are also some big differences in that the terroir in Barolo and Barbaresco is far more complicated than it is in Burgundy because Burgundy is one east-facing slope so you’ve got very similar aspect, and a relatively small range of altitude difference. Barberesco, and particularly Barolo, is very different with vineyards facing southwest, east and south, along with a range of altitudes from about 150 meters up to 550 meters.
  • What makes Nebbiolo unique as a grape?
    • David believes that the magic of Nebbiolo is its extraordinary aromatic complexity and amazing structure. The tannins and acidity together give it this an amazing Pinot Noir character, which is so aromatic. It has structure, but not too overt in that it still has a silky and textured and it can age for decades.

 

Start The Conversation: Click Below to Share These Wine Tips

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There are very few substantial books on Italian wine regions. - David Way David Way Click to tweet

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You have fantastic wines, but you have too many denominations. Italian wide is complicated enough. - David Way David Way Click to tweet

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If you love the complexity of Burgundy, you’re going to love Barolo and Barbaresco, because they’re the same but even more complicated. - David Way David Way Click to tweet

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I think the magic of Nebbiolo is the extraordinary combination of aromatic complexity and amazing structure. - David Way David Way Click to tweet

 

About David Way

David Way initially specialized in the wines of the Tuscan Maremma before broadening his interests to the rest of Italy and beyond. His articles are published on his website, www.winefriend.org. He works as Senior Researcher on the five textbooks for the WSET Level 4 Diploma in Wines.

In his own name, David wrote The Wines of Piemonte (Classic Wine Library, 2023). Substantial coverage is, of course, given to Barolo and Barbaresco. However, for the first time, all 60 denominations of the region are covered in detail and many native grape varieties. Additional chapters recount the history and current state of sparkling wine in the region, both tank method and traditional method. As a result, the book gives an unparalleled coverage of one of Italy’s most important regions and includes 200 producer profiles. The book was honoured by the OIV at its award ceremony in Lisbon in 2024.

 

Bonus Interview – Jo Penn

Highlights

  • What are the challenges of writing memoir compared to more journalistic writing?
  • How does it feel to be a supertaster?
  • How does the concept of “terroir” in wine compare to the development of a writer’s unique voice?

 

About Jo Penn

Jo Penn is an award-winning New York Times and USA Today bestselling author of horror, thrillers, dark fantasy, crime, and travel memoirs, as well as short stories. She’s also an award-winning podcaster. She has a Master’s in Theology from the University of Oxford. Her latest novel is Blood Vintage, a folk horror story set in an English vineyard.

 

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Transcript

Natalie MacLean 00:00:00 Are you curious about the wines of Piemonte in northern Italy, especially those that reach beyond Barolo and Barbaresco? The two best known. And speaking of those, why are Barolo and Barbaresco often compared with Burgundy? In what ways are they the same and how do they differ? And what makes the Nebbiolo grape unique? In today’s episode, you’ll hear the stories and tips that answer those questions in our chat with David Wei, the author of the new and fabulous book The Wines of Piedmont. By the end of our conversation, you’ll also discover what inspired David to make wine as an undergraduate at Oxford University. Why David decided to focus his book on the Piedmont region of Italy. What makes David’s book different from other Italian wine books, even those about the same region? How Piedmont compares geographically to other well-known Italian wine regions. The approach David recommends for understanding Piedmontese incredible 60 denominations or subregions. How Nebbiolo evolved from a tannic monster of the past to a more silky, refined wine today. Which qualities make Nebbiolo a great grape for warmer climates? How Nebbiolo and Barbera grapes compare, and how to determine whether you should decant your wine or not.

Natalie MacLean 00:01:32 Do you have a thirst to learn about wine? Do you love stories about wonderfully obsessive people, hauntingly beautiful places, and amusingly awkward social situations? Well, that’s the blend here on the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast. I’m your host, Natalie MacLean, and each week I share with you unfiltered conversations with celebrities in the wine world, as well as confessions from my own tipsy journey as I write my third book on this subject. I’m so glad you’re here. Now pass me that bottle, please, and let’s get started. Welcome to episode 315. Two of you will win a copy of David’s terrific book, The Wines of Piedmont. All you have to do is email me and let me know that you like to win. I’ll choose two people randomly from those who contact me at Natalie at Natalie MacLean. Com. It does not matter where you live. I also still have one copy left of the following books to give away. Inspirational memoirs and memories of the women who shaped Ontario’s grape and wine industry, by Jennifer Willam.

Natalie MacLean 00:02:45 The Smart Traveler’s Wine Guide to Rioja, edited by Adam Latimer, and Wine Bites, 64 simple nibbles that pair perfectly with wine by Barbara Scott Goodman. It’s a beautiful recipe book, hardcover with full color pictures. Congratulations to both Dennis van Kempen from the Netherlands and Yanick Nadeau from North Vancouver, BC, who have both won a personally signed copy of The Life and Wines of Hugh Johnson. In other bookish news, if you’re reading the paperback or e-book or listening to the audiobook of my memoir wine, which on fire rising from the ashes of divorce, defamation and drinking too much. I’d love to hear from you at Natalie at Natalie MacLean dot com. If you’d like to give this book as a holiday gift, I’d be happy to send you personally signed book plates, both for yourself and for the copies you give as gifts. I’ll put a link in the show notes to all retailers worldwide at Natalie MacLean dot com. Forward slash 315. When you order it online, it usually arrives within a day or two.

Natalie MacLean 00:03:50 At the end of today’s episode, I’m also including a bonus interview I did with Japan on her podcast, The Creative Pen, we explore what it means to be a super taster, how the concept of terroir and wine compares to a writer’s unique voice, and what are the challenges of writing memoir compared to more journalistic writing. As I said, this is gravy, not the main meal, so feel free to keep listening if you’re hungry for more or not. While I was in Toronto recently, we were also chatting about great gift wines and spirits on the morning shows. How do you know which one to choose? Well, first off, I’m here to help and answered the big question why should we give wine or spirits as a gift at all? Well, personally, I’m biased, of course, but when you give the gift of wine or spirits, doubles are fine. Unlike toaster ovens, there are no wrong sizes. Unlike that ugly sweater. Please return it. And regifting is so much easier compared to fruitcake.

Natalie MacLean 00:04:54 You don’t have to be as sneaky. Let’s be honest. Has anyone ever said, oh no, not another bottle of wine? No, never. Okay, so let’s get into the fun part. The Saint Regis Sauvignon Blanc and Pinot Noir are perfect for your psychiatrist, bartender, or whomever is giving you good advice lately. Surprise them with these delicious, alcohol free wines. Now you’re thinking out of the box or bottle, and that’s big progress for you this year. Of course, they’ll analyze whatever you give them, so choose wines like these that are so juicy and mouthwatering they’ll pair well with holiday turkey and major emotional breakthroughs. These wines are available in many grocery stores as well as online from retailers like Amazon. I’ll also put a link in the show notes to the blog post I did for all of these, so that you can follow that link and see exactly where you can get them. The majority of the remainder that I’m going to mention to you are available in liquor stores as well. Next up, the Honest Lot Pinot Grigio is perfect for the person that you met through an online dating site.

Natalie MacLean 00:06:04 It has zero grams of sugar per serving and is fully transparent with an ingredients label, just like you were when you filled out your dating profile and did not use that quote. Recent photo from 2005. This vibrant wine is not too light, not too heavy. It’s perfect for your third date when you don’t want to be too wimpy or come on too strong. It pairs beautifully with oysters or your sparkling wit, whichever is fresher. Next up, your hairstylist. Now here’s a person who has a great sense of humor. He laughs at all your jokes when you’re in the chair, yet he takes styling your mop. Seriously. Someone has to. So give him a wine that’s also versatile. Layered in modern like the Trento Reserve Malbec, one of the most popular wines from Argentina. This terrific wine offers sumptuous red fruit flavors and great structure that your stylist loves in a good cut. Parrott of course, with angel hair pasta in a tomato sauce. Now let’s talk about your travel agent. He’s planned terrific vacations for you over the years.

Natalie MacLean 00:07:14 Intrigue him with the El Dorado 12 year old rum from Guyana, one of the world’s most premium small batch rums. I mentioned this one in the last episode because it’s also a very sustainable distillery, does a lot of great things for its delicate tropical environment. This rum is a passport to the Caribbean for your senses, with aromas of caramelized toffee, molasses and a hint of dark spice. Most rums put the year of the oldest vintage in their blend, but El Dorado puts the youngest, so you’re actually tasting a rum that’s much more complex and older, more mature from blending vintages that are older than 12 years. Now your personal trainer deserves liqueur 43, a premium Spanish liqueur based on a secret family recipe of 43 ingredients, including fresh citrus fruits and botanicals. One of the morning show hosts loved the smell of this one so much, she said. She wanted to wear it as a perfume. This will take your personal trainers cocktails to the next level with its complexity and versatility, much like the program she’s developed for you.

Natalie MacLean 00:08:25 You can also use this in desserts like tiramisu and cheesecake to make them even more decadent. Just don’t tell your trainer after all that core work she’s done with you. Now you’ve shopped for everyone else. Don’t forget yourself. The Glenlivet twist and mixed old fashion is just the thing when you need something a little stronger to watch the seventh rerun of miracle on 34th Street. It’s a ready to serve cocktail with comforting hints of orange, cinnamon and nutmeg. No more mixing different ingredients, just twist, mix, pour and share. Another option is screwball peanut butter whiskey. Yes. Peanut butter. The adult version of your favorite childhood flavor. Proving that growing up doesn’t need to be boring, especially around the holidays. It’s also a great accompaniment to off key caroling and those sugarplums dancing in your head. That is why you have a headache, right? So here’s to the holidays. A season of giving, receiving, and raising a glass to all that binds us together. You can find all these wines and spirits on my website Natalie MacLean.

Natalie MacLean 00:09:31 Com and you can also connect with me on Instagram. I’m at Natalie MacLean wine. Okay, on with the show. David Wei holds a doctorate degree in theology from Oxford University. He then pivoted well, sort of pivoted. He did make some wine during his undergraduate days. So there is a transition. And now he specializes in the wines of Italy and is a senior researcher on the five textbooks for the state level four diploma program. His new book, The Wines of Piemonte, published as part of the Classic Library of Academia, gives an unparalleled coverage to one of Italy’s most important regions and includes 200 producer profiles. For the first time ever, all 60 denominations or appellations of the region are covered in detail, and many of the native grape varieties. There’s 60 to 80 of those. Additional chapters recount the history and current state of sparkling wine in the region, both method and traditional method. As a result, the book was honored by the International Organization of Wine and Wine this year at its award ceremony in Lisbon.

Natalie MacLean 00:10:46 You can find David’s articles on his website at wine.org. And David joins us now from his home in Hampshire, near London. Welcome. We’re so glad to have you here with us, David.

David Way 00:11:00 Thank you very much, Natalie. What a lovely introduction, and I’m really looking forward to talking to you about this whole region.

Natalie MacLean 00:11:06 Oh, we’re keen to chat with you. We’re going to dive in now. I did allude to this, but as an undergraduate at Oxford University, you made wine, I believe, from elder flowers and other fruit. What inspired that?

David Way 00:11:19 partly poverty, I think. Basically.

Natalie MacLean 00:11:21 Good answer.

David Way 00:11:22 So there is a tradition in England of what we call country wines, which are made with all sorts of strange fruit and flowers. It can be quite interesting. I don’t really know. I had friends who are seriously into wine, but they obviously had more money than I did and I just got into this. It was quite a common hobby in those days, and it proved to be really valuable because later, when I became a serious wine student, actually having made wines of any sort is a huge advantage because you know what they’re talking about in a way.

David Way 00:11:53 If it’s just all theory, it’s much more difficult to grasp. And actually, I only drank my very last bottle of my own wine about 15 years ago, so it was about 30 years old.

Natalie MacLean 00:12:06 Wow. Did it stand up?

David Way 00:12:08 It was sort of port style.

Natalie MacLean 00:12:10 Oh, I see.

David Way 00:12:12 So it was fortified.

Natalie MacLean 00:12:13 Yes, but.

David Way 00:12:14 It was made with elderberries. So yes, it had, it had decent fruit. I mean, it’s not going to stand up to any decent commercial example of port, but it was drinkable.

Natalie MacLean 00:12:25 Well, that’s an achievement in and of itself. Now, after graduating, how did your interest in wine grow and especially in Italy? How did that happen?

David Way 00:12:36 So it was quite a long burn, I mean, for many years, like many English people who like wine, I bought French wines because that’s what’s pushed in this country. That’s our tradition. So I used to buy inexpensive wines from the Rhone Valley, and I graduated a little bit to Burgundy in the days when it wasn’t horrendously expensive.

David Way 00:12:54 And then I started going on holiday in Italy, and then got really frustrated by not being able to speak the language. So I decided in midlife I would learn Italian, which was great fun and quite a challenge. And then it’s really weird because, you know, as I say, I went from Italian to Italian wine, not the other way around. You know, when I was a student and I would go out in the summer for a couple of weeks and I would do a top up class in Italian, and there were often cultural things you could do as well. And anyway, to cut a long story short, I ended up teaching small wine classes about the local wines of Tuscany, where I was based, and then after I’d done that for a couple of years, I thought, If I’m going to do this regularly, I really ought to have a qualification. So I then started on the Wced qualifications ladder, simply because I was working in the educational field at the time. It was easy.

David Way 00:13:46 The headquarters of Wced were only ten minutes away on the tube, so that’s how I came into it in a very curious route.

Natalie MacLean 00:13:54 Sounds terrific language. Then food, then wine. It makes sense to me. Now, before we get into this book that we’re talking about, tell us about how your wife had the casting vote when it came to choosing which Italian region you were going to write about.

David Way 00:14:10 So a little bit of background, first of all, as you’ve already kindly said, my main job has been with the Wced writing the diploma textbooks, which is the most amazing privilege and exciting project. It’s a vast undertaking. We had 70 external experts giving us notes on regions from around the world, and then my colleague and I basically wrote it all in a uniform way and did the bits of research which filled in the bits which other people hadn’t told us about. The only disadvantage of that was that, of course, I wrote about most of Europe in that, you know, so I had to spread my interest very wide.

David Way 00:14:48 And as it turned out, I only had ten pages on Piemonte within the book because you can’t favor some region over another. You have to write equally about Tuscany, Campania, the Rhone Valley, the Mosel, wherever it was. I got a little bit frustrated in the end, because what I really wanted to do was to do a deep dive into one Italian region. So of course, when I decide to do that, the obvious question was, okay, David, which Italian region? And by that time I had visited a lot of regions and I had spent a lot of time in Tuscany, as many people do. It’s a beautiful place, has amazing wines, has great food. So Janet and I sat down and we actually literally drew up a shortlist which went Tuscany, Piemonte, Campania with Basilicata. The latter choice will be less familiar with people, but Campania has amazing white wines, and those two regions, Campania and Basilicata, share one of Italy’s great black grape varieties, Alyana, which makes very substantial tannic wines which can age forever.

David Way 00:15:51 So that would have been the most niche choice of the three, and probably the one I knew least about Tuscany would have been the absolute obvious choice. I’d been there a lot, and you know, it would have been a huge amount about Sangiovese grape that I love very much. And then, of course, there was Piemonte, which I of course visited and had been really impressed with the wine quality, with the food, with many things, but I didn’t have quite the same knowledge of Piemonte then as I did at Tuscany. But Janet said to me, I think, David, you need a new challenge, so why don’t you go for Piemonte? So we decided to do that, and it was also partly practical, to be honest, and that is that it’s very easy to reach from England. So in two hours you can fly to Turin or to Milan or even to Geneva, and be in various different parts of Piemonte very easily. Okay. Pavement is a big region, but Tuscany is very rural.

David Way 00:16:47 You know, it was really down to really silly things, like how long would it take to get there from an airport? How long would you spend driving around through the. You know, Tuscany is not all vineyards. There are massive forests as well.

Natalie MacLean 00:16:58 Well, you have to be practical, especially if you’re going to go dive into the research and spend so much time in the region.

David Way 00:17:04 So exactly. So I thought Janet’s challenge was absolutely a good one. And of course, let’s be honest, Piemonte makes some of the world’s greatest wines, so it wasn’t exactly a hardship choosing Piemonte.

Natalie MacLean 00:17:15 Sure, sure. Well, I think she was right. And then you get all the cuisine to match. So tell us in a nutshell, like how this book is different, perhaps from other books, either about the region or about Italy. I’m not familiar with the canon on Italy, so how would you differentiate your book?

David Way 00:17:34 First of all, there are very few substantial books on Italian regions. It’s really underwritten.

David Way 00:17:40 The series that I’m in, the classic wine library, loads of books about France, books about whole countries, very few books about Italy. So that was point one, really. Point two is that there’s a lot of writing in the press about Barolo and Barbaresco, the two famous Nebbiolo denominations, in what we can call the languor. So the languor is the area within which Beryl and Barbaresco fall, but nobody really writes about anywhere else. That’s the problem, is that those two world class wines overshadow the rest of the region massively. So. Nobody else had really written a book that goes into detail about all the other parts of Piemonte. And let me tell you, there are a lot of other parts. We just spent a lot of time traveling, a lot of time interviewing people to go to. So that’s really the biggest single difference. And then I’m sure we’ll come on to talk about great varieties. The other thing is that just has such an amazing wealth of local grape varieties that really don’t occur anywhere else.

Natalie MacLean 00:18:42 Right. Yeah. Some 60 to 80. It’s amazing.

David Way 00:18:45 That was really fascinating.

Natalie MacLean 00:18:46 Yeah. And then the size of Piedmont. How does it compare to Tuscany geographically? Like is it twice the size or.

David Way 00:18:54 Okay. So it’s a large region, but a lot of it is either genuine mountains, i.e. too high. The Alps are on both on the western side and the northern side. The proper apps obviously way too high for growing grapes. And then there is this huge bit in the middle, which is where the famous risotto rice is grown. So there’s this huge flat land of the Po Valley. And so actually the vineyard areas, particularly the substantial ones, are actually Surprisingly close together in southern Piemonte. There are important areas in the north as well of Piemonte, but they are really quite close together. So again, I don’t know what the actual physical distance is. I know that Belmont is bigger than Tuscany, but as I say, much of it is really not Wineland at all.

Natalie MacLean 00:19:43 Right, right.

Natalie MacLean 00:19:44 Okay. How did they end up with 60 denominations, or are those docs or appellations?

David Way 00:19:51 They are docs or dog. So either does.

Natalie MacLean 00:19:54 That stand denomination? Your Italian is way better denomination.

David Way 00:19:59 The original contra Lata so controlled denomination of origin. So a defined place within which you can grow certain grape varieties with a particular style in mind, and then dog the same, but with guarantee to at the end of it, supposedly a higher level denomination. Why do they end up with 60? That is a really good question. I’ve done a couple of presentations to growers in the region since I published the book, which has been really interesting and a massive honour, of course. I have said to them, this is an amazing region. You have fantastic wines, but you just have too many denominations. It’s too complicated. And the ones that I’ve really taken issue with are ones which are basically overlapping denominations for the same grape variety. There are two major Barbera denominations which are basically the same region. I have asked every grower I have met about this.

David Way 00:20:57 You know, how on earth did this come about? We’re talking about the early 1970s now, so it is a long time ago. But my best guess, and that’s all it is, is that it was political. So one of them reflects the interests of the province of Asti. And the other one is the province of Alexandria, which then absolutely next door to each other. Weirdly, the two denominations cover both provinces. So I just say to them, this really does not help. You know, Italian wine is complicated enough. They’re not at me and they agree. But unfortunately, they only ever get new denominations created and they never undo any of the old ones.

Natalie MacLean 00:21:38 They need one of those merge functions on an Excel spreadsheet. Is it important for us to know, to understand, or try to even sort out these denominations if we want to understand Piedmont or, you know, yes or no to that? And then is there any way of remembering them? Yeah.

David Way 00:21:54 So I would be highly selective basically.

David Way 00:21:58 That’s of course, Barolo and Barbaresco, both denominations that require wines to meet with 100% Nebbiolo grapes in defined areas which are very close to each other. So, you know, that’s very clear. People understand that concept. Some of the Dominations do help you by putting the grape variety in the front of them. So Barbera. dusty, Barbara from the area of Asti. Perfect. That’s really good.

Natalie MacLean 00:22:25 That helps.

David Way 00:22:26 Some. If you like the. Why’d you just have to learn the name if you’re taking a northern example, for example, there’s a lovely area called informally Alto Piemonte. So Upper Piemonte and there are wait for it, ten tiny denominations in a small area. And okay, people, 1 or 2 real wine geeks might have heard of Gatineau or Gamay before, but frankly, you just find the wine that you like and you drink that and you don’t worry too much about what it says on the bottle because it’s it’s hopeless.

Natalie MacLean 00:22:58 It’s it’s there must be some sort of shrugging emoji or something.

Natalie MacLean 00:23:02 They should come up with all these complicated, small, tiny little regions. Is this why sometimes people compare Piedmont to Burgundy, France, whereas they compare Tuscany to Bordeaux? Yeah.

David Way 00:23:15 There is a sort of element of truth in that. The biggest single reason, I think, is because Tuscany, of course, has small growers, but it also has large aristocratic estates, really substantial properties. So, you know, a famous wine like Tiny Nello is made in the hundreds of thousands. You know, it is one of Italy’s great wines, but it is not made in. So in that sense, it’s like a grand Bordeaux chateau.

Natalie MacLean 00:23:40 Right, right. Like your Margaux or whatever he owns.

David Way 00:23:43 Yeah, exactly. Whereas Piemonte, and particularly we’re really talking about Barilla and Barbaresco here, and that’s fine. But Roland, Barbaresco is a is many, many small plots owned by many, many small growers. So in that sense it’s very like Burgundy. The other way it’s very similar to Burgundy is that tiny differences of altitude, soil type, which way your vineyard faces the wind direction make noticeable differences in the final wine.

David Way 00:24:18 And of course, that’s just like Burgundy, isn’t it, where you can literally walk 50 yards from one vineyard to another, and the wines made from those vineyards will taste different. So in that sense, it’s terroir expressive in a very similar way to Burgundy. And then lastly, the other reason is that when they were really trying to raise the quality of Barolo and Barbaresco back in the 80s and 90s very successfully, I have to say, they all went off to Burgundy and visited Burgundy and said, oh, we want to be like this. So there was a sort of natural affinity, you know, they’re both single grape variety wines. Aging and wood is important to both of them. And as I’ve already said, the parcels of vineyard are tiny in both places. There are some big differences as well which are worth knowing about. And that is that actually barrel and Barbaresco. The terroir is far more complicated than it is in Burgundy. And that’s because basically in Burgundy, I mean, this is a massive simplification.

David Way 00:25:16 And the Burgundies will have. We’ll have to forgive me for it. Basically, Burgundy is one lovely east facing slope. Okay. So you’ve got very similar aspect and you’ve got a relatively small range of altitude difference rising from the lower land up to the top and, and all that. Both of those factors make a big difference. But Barbaresco, particularly Barolo, is very, very different to that. You have vineyards facing southwest, you have vineyards facing east, you have vineyards facing full south, you have a range of altitude from about 150m up to 550m. Really significant changes. And you have fundamentally three soil types, significantly different soil types. So it’s partly why if you love the complexity of Burgundy, you’re going to love Berlin Barbaresco because it’s the same, but even more complicated. And if you just like a region which can produce wines which are similar in style but have subtle differences between them. You are going to be in vinous heaven in Bruno and Barbaresco because they do that in spades.

Natalie MacLean 00:26:22 And the slopes, as you say, there’s lots of slopes, even though the aspect differs.

Natalie MacLean 00:26:27 But is there also differences in shading because of the Alps or other facets than we would find in Burgundy?

David Way 00:26:35 Shading can be an issue. The Alps are too far away to shade this area, but because the slopes are really quite steep, you can get situations in which the bottom one third of a vineyard area can end up in the shade in the early evening, whereas the top of the vineyard is still in the sun.

Natalie MacLean 00:26:57 okay.

David Way 00:26:58 The best exponent of this is an Italian guy called Alessandro Messina, who’s done the most amazing map work of this area and has a fantastic interactive website where you can, like a drone, fly around. It’s quite incredible. It’s called 360. Really worth. If you’re into this stuff, it’s really worth checking out.

Natalie MacLean 00:27:19 We’ll have to put a link in the show notes to that. Yeah.

David Way 00:27:22 No, definitely. And he demonstrates this factor very much because of this sort of fishbone structure. So you have a big bone in the middle, as it were. And then all these little valleys going off it.

David Way 00:27:33 One part of the vineyard can be shaded by the next ridge because it’s so close. And then, of course, that makes a difference to when it ripens, the style of the wine, all those things neat.

Natalie MacLean 00:27:46 So what makes Piedmontese signature grape Nebbiolo unique? You’ve mentioned it several times now. Does the name have anything to do with dark grape Nebbiolo? I’m thinking Nero Davalos, the black grape of Avila. So Nebbiolo indeed.

David Way 00:28:03 So Nebbiolo. The closest word to it is Napier, which means fog. Okay, which is really interesting because it’s a continental climate and it is very prone to fog. So is there a connection? Who knows? scholars debate about the origin of the name. Why is it the world’s greatest grape variety? That’s what you were asking me, wasn’t it?

Natalie MacLean 00:28:25 That’s where you’re leading me. I think you have a bit of a bias here, David. But tell us. Indeed.

David Way 00:28:31 I think the magic of Nebbiolo is this extraordinary combination of aromatic complexity. It’s a very aromatic grape variety and amazing structure.

Natalie MacLean 00:28:43 The tannins.

David Way 00:28:44 The tannins and acidity, the tannins and acidity together give it this amazing. So Pinot, which I also love. And of course, I’m joking about Nebbiolo. Pinot is an amazingly aromatic grape variety as well, and until you get to Grand Cru level, of course it has structure, but it doesn’t have very overt structure. It has quite a gentle tannin structure, beautiful, and is silky and gorgeous in those sorts of way. Nebbiolo is not like that. It has, I think, an even greater aromatic array. You might like it. You might not like it. It just has this incredible aromatic array. But then it also has this incredible structure. And of course, that’s partly what enables it to age for literally decades.

Natalie MacLean 00:29:27 And the signature aromas I know be hard to summarize, but is it violets and tar and what are those kinds of things going on?

David Way 00:29:35 Why? I make this crazy claim about this amazing aromatic array is that it goes from everything from floral, as you say, violets rose through various shades of red and dark through, depending on where you are and how ripe it was that year and all those things.

David Way 00:29:51 So red cherry, red plum, black plum, that whole range. And then it has this very sort of earthy animal elements to it, even in relatively young wines. And then if you wait 20 years, you’ll get this amazing array again of the classic, what we call in the in the trade, the tertiary note. So, you know, leather, coffee, all those things, but also the tar thing. That’s where the tar and roses. There’s a very famous English book which was written 30 years ago, still worth reading, which was about Nebbiolo called tar and roses that tarry ness. And then also there’s amazing truffle like aromas.

Natalie MacLean 00:30:35 And we mean the wild fungi, not the chocolate. Right?

David Way 00:30:38 We do mean the wild fungi. Good point. That’s very interesting because of course it is one of the capitals of the truffle industry. Alba is the world capital of the white truffle. So it’s really bizarre. That is great. As wine also ultimately has these remarkable truffle. So you can see everything from floral, fruity mineral animal to the exoticism of truffle.

Natalie MacLean 00:31:05 Wow. Quite a range. Yeah. I guess this is one time when that adage grows together, goes together. They have some similar aromatic profiles between the truffle accented dishes and the wine. But of course, too, it’s traditionally been viewed that especially Barolo, made from Nebbiolo, is a tannic monster that you can’t even drink for ten years. Is that still true?

David Way 00:31:30 The short answer to that is no, it’s not. It’s still tannic, but it’s not a tannic monster. Let’s explore that for a moment. The reason why it was a tannic monster in the past is deeply, deeply practical. This story has been told many times, but in the long distant past, people used to pick their Nebbiolo in November because that’s the earliest it would ripen. Because times were so much cooler. They would make the wine, and then they would leave it on the skins and go out and do the all the other things on the farm, because we weren’t talking about specialized Viticulture. We were talking about mixed farms in those days, and then they’d come back a couple of months later and think, oh yes, I made that wine.

David Way 00:32:08 I really ought to rack it off with skins. And of course, if you do that for two months, you are going to extract everything that is in those grapes. And then the old joke was, you drank your Dolcetto while you waited for your Nebbiolo to come round, and it could be ten years, you know, before it.

Natalie MacLean 00:32:25 Was a much lighter grape, right?

David Way 00:32:27 Dolcetto is a less tannic. It is still does have tannins, but. But it’s less tannic. Yeah.

Natalie MacLean 00:32:31 Okay.

David Way 00:32:32 So that world has passed away. We now have superbly gifted and trained winemakers. We have much better viticulture. So people know how to ripen grapes much better. We have a much warmer climate, which is really significant in nebula’s case because as I’ve already said in the past, it used to only ripen in about November and of course you could have several weeks of rain by the time you got to that and you could lose all your grapes. So it was really not a great combination. And, you know, and therefore you probably only made decent wine in like one every three years or something of that sort, but now just is no longer the case.

David Way 00:33:13 The weather is a huge challenge in all sorts of other ways, but because it’s so much warmer, the grapes will ripen absolutely regularly. We’ve only had two coolish vintages in the last 25 years.

Natalie MacLean 00:33:25 Well, well, at what time of year are they now harvesting? Has that moved up to.

David Way 00:33:30 It’s moved into mid-October.

Natalie MacLean 00:33:31 mid-October. Wow.

David Way 00:33:32 Yeah, that’s three weeks earlier. Definitely. And then finally, people have learned how to work with the tannins in much subtle ways. And yes, extract them because it is Nebbiolo. It’s supposed to be tannic. That’s the point. But there’s a huge difference between having a lot of under ripe tannins in a wine glass and a lot of fully ripe tannins, so the finesse of the tannins has really changed. Particularly in a year like I mean, last year I tasted the new vintage, which was 2020 and 2020 is what in the trade we call a restaurant vintage. In other words, a vintage. You can drink early. You don’t have to wait for ten years.

David Way 00:34:14 It’s a lighter vintage is is lovely, aromatic and fruity, but the tannins are already I mean, it was amazing. I was sort of a little bit anxious about going and tasting like 100 Nebbiolo wines in three mornings, thinking, God, this is going to be all right, you know? But actually it was an absolute pleasure because the tannins were so they’re not soft when they’re that young, but they are really refined. And with a few, just like 2 or 3 years in the bottle, they’ll be absolutely perfect to drink.

Natalie MacLean 00:34:43 And ripe tannins. Does that just mean they I mean ten and I always think of it as a texture rather than a taste, although some people say dusty tannins, whatever. So does that mean if they’re ripe, that they’re rounder, just they’re gliding over your palate more easily. I mean, I.

David Way 00:34:59 Tend to go in for fabric analogies. You know, the Pinot noir, the tannins can be silky, can’t they? Because they’re super fine and beautiful. Nebbiolo will always have more grip than that.

David Way 00:35:12 So, you know, even the most mature wines are going to be more in the sort of satin, a bit more resistant still. But they should never be bitter. They should never be abrasive. They should be a significant part of the texture, as you say, of the wine. It carries it off somehow because it is such an intense wine in other ways. You know, it’s aromatic, intense. It has high acidity, wines of real substance, and the tannins are an important part of that.

Natalie MacLean 00:35:42 Yeah. And I think you’ve mentioned in your book or elsewhere that the extraction is gentle. So they’re not just, well, obviously they’re not doing it the old way, just let it sit on the skins for two months. But they’re really being very gentle and very precise, intentional about how they extract those tannins from the skins. Yeah. Exactly.

David Way 00:36:00 Right. Yeah.

Natalie MacLean 00:36:02 What qualities make Nebbiolo a great grape for warmer climates?

David Way 00:36:08 That’s a really interesting question. It seems very resistant to heat. So Greg Jones, who’s the sort of wine climatologist, he puts Nebbiolo right in the warmest category.

David Way 00:36:19 He thinks it does well in climates even better than Grenache, which we think of as the as the classic black grape variety for hot climates. It has a very long season, so it’s able to withstand heat. The best comparison is with Barbera, which obviously is another Piedmontese grape variety. Barbera is a complete sugar factory. Okay. You have to make sure that you pick it at the alcohol level that you want, because if you leave it another week in the vineyard, it’ll put on like another whole percentage of alcohol.

Natalie MacLean 00:36:51 So it’s really gobbling up that the sun which converts to sugar, and then that in turn converts to alcohol. When you ferment.

David Way 00:36:59 It loves the heat, but it changes it straight into sugar. Nebbiolo also likes heat, but somehow it resists heat, and it doesn’t put on sugar. In the later stages of the heart of the vintage of the year. In fact, it’s really important for that aromatic complexity that I was talking about, that it does have a long time on the vine and is still on the vine in October, because the thing you really want is warm days and cold nights in that period, right?

Natalie MacLean 00:37:28 Those changes, those changes.

David Way 00:37:30 And that’s really what gives you that amazing aromatic intensity for the very best vintages of Nebbiolo. So yeah. So it’s something to do with its ability to resist heat in the middle of the season and then go on getting more interesting as the nighttime temperature drops.

Natalie MacLean 00:37:48 Wow. It reminds me it’s something metabolic is going on there. It’s almost like it’s insulin resistant. It’s not reacting to the sugars or it’s not creating the sugars in the first place. So then the ripening is happening in the more complex ways in the skins, those phenols, those aromatic precursors. So it’s not, as you say, a sugar factory, I love that. So how would you contrast then say Nebbiolo and Barbera?

David Way 00:38:14 Nebbiolo? First of all, it should always be pale in the glass. That touches on an interesting point we could come back to. So it’s in that sense it’s a little bit Pinot esque in that it’s always pale and it very quickly goes garnet in color, so it doesn’t keep its redness when it’s young. Of course, it’s red ruby like any other grape variety, but it quickly goes off in towards that brown direction.

David Way 00:38:36 Garnet Barbera is completely different in that regard. It has amazing color intensity and it will keep it for 20 years very resistant. So if you love a deep colored wine and you want something from Piedmont, then you want to drink Gap era. The other big difference is the structure. Well, I think Barbera is a high quality great, which can make really good wine. There are two differences. It is more in that middle red cherry to plum thing. It does have some violet, of course. It has some violet, some floral notes. It doesn’t have quite the aromatic array of Nebbiolo. Structurally, it’s completely different. Okay, structurally, Barbera is high acid and low tannin, whereas Nebbiolo is high in both. So if you served, if you’re playing the crazy, you know, blind tasting game and you get two wines from one region and one is deeper in color and one is acidic but not tannic, it’s going to be Barbera and the other one is going to be Nebbiolo. The other big difference is that actually Barbera suits new French oak quite well.

David Way 00:39:41 So it goes well with those vanilla and clove notes of sweet spice notes from French oak, whereas Nebbiolo is overwhelmed. Nebbiolo is about delicate, aromatic creature, and it doesn’t really show that incredible complexity. If you put it into a lot of new oak, you end up with a perfectly good wine. But it could be a perfectly good wine from anywhere. It really stops being Nebbiolo. There’s a whole story behind that. We’ll see if we get to that one.

Natalie MacLean 00:40:08 Sure, sure. It’s hard to keep those two contrasting notions about Nebbiolo in mind at the same time. It’s delicate, and yet it can be, well, no longer the tannic monster, but tannic. And it’s like, whoa, how do you. But that’s what makes it so interesting, is these contrasts. What do you mean? When we talk about Barolo being the wine of kings and the king of wines?

David Way 00:40:31 Okay, so this is a tag which has been attached to quite a few words in history, actually. So Tokay in Hungary, it’s also called this.

David Way 00:40:39 It’s a great bit of marketing. First of all, you know, it’s a great slogan and that’s fantastic. So in Nebbiolo case or Barolo burglars case. It’s because it is associated with the House of Savoy, which was the ruling family in Piemonte. Up to 1861, which is when Italy became a unified country and then after the war, voted to become a republic. So there was a monarchy in place, the King of Savoy, Carlo Alberto. And there is a story of actually a Frenchwoman who married into a Piedmontese family, became a marchioness, and she wanted to persuade the King of Savoy to take this wine seriously and to pass it around. She was also a great marketeer. She understood that if the King of Savoy had these wines, then there might be an ability to sell it to other royal courtyards around Europe, which is what happened. So Jeannette Colbert, a French noblewoman, supplied the King of Savoy with wines from an estate in Barolo. And he got really interested to the extent that he actually bought in the state in Barolo.

David Way 00:41:46 He actually bought it in the state in the village of Adorno. And another part of the family bought another one, which is now the Fontana Frieda estate in Barolo. So she very cleverly positioned her wine, the wine she was promoting in the royal household in Turin, capital of Piemonte. And then it got this tag of the wine of kings and the King of wines. And I’ve already explained to you why it’s the king of wine. Yes.

Natalie MacLean 00:42:12 True. Yes. Of course, in a totally unbiased way. She sounds like she had the same chutzpah of Kiko from champagne, who got her champagnes into the Russian court to celebrate the birth of the czar. The royals set the fashion those days, you know, before social media. So they were the key influencers? Yes. Exactly. Yes. Yeah. So in terms of food pairings, we’ve touched a little bit on this. The truffle accented dish for Barolo would be wonderful. But what other food pairings come to mind when you think of Barolo?

David Way 00:42:41 It’s surprisingly versatile.

David Way 00:42:44 There needs to be some richness in the food because obviously this is a big, structured wine and high acidity, as we’ve already said. But interestingly, it goes from everything from sort of rich, cheesy fondue as a dish called fondue to which actually comes from a neighbouring region. But it’s much loved empowerment and it goes really well with that. They love rare beef and Piemonte. They have a type of cow called Farzana, a type of beef called Farzana, which they’re very, very proud of. And it’s often served as a antipasto. So it goes really well with that with game. And then of course with the big casserole meat dishes. So it’s an interesting range because you can drink it with everything from, you know, a pasta dish with truffle and egg on the one hand, through rich cheesy fondue through to these big meaty dishes. Yeah, it’s really interesting how it is really surprisingly versatile.

Natalie MacLean 00:43:39 And what food pairings come to mind for Barbaresco.

David Way 00:43:43 Barbaresco is slightly warmer and quite a lot drier than Barolo, so in wet years Barbaresco is can often be better.

David Way 00:43:52 Like 2014, for example, was a wet year and actually there was far more rain in Barolo than in Barbaresco. I mean, the regions are only like 20 miles apart. We’re not talking about a long way and the geology is quite similar. Most of the geology of Barbaresco is like the north western part of Barolo, but it is warmer and therefore a little bit riper. Wines don’t require quite the same long aging. They don’t require as long in wood. They are released a year earlier. There’s slightly more delicate wine, basically. So, you know, if you were going to pair it with something more delicate of that whole range of things that we talked about, then probably Barbaresco would be a good choice.

Natalie MacLean 00:44:33 And I assume that, well, with the exception of, say, a restaurant vintage like 2020 was for a Barolo, you would want to decant Barolo. And that again would depend on the vintage. But generally, if people are opening up a bottle, do you suggest like an hour or two hours or just keep trying it and seeing if it’s to your liking?

David Way 00:44:54 Do you know on Facebook there are groups of aficionados of a certain thing, aren’t there? You know, the wines at the Rhone or.

Natalie MacLean 00:45:00 Whatever Facebook groups? Yeah.

David Way 00:45:01 Thank you. And so there is one for Barilla and Barbaresco, and they spend ages debating and telling you, you know, I decant, I open this in the morning and I left it, you know, and or I decanted it half an hour before and all that sort of stuff. And I’m sort of thinking, I’m not sure how much difference all that makes, particularly just opening the bottle. I really don’t think that makes a big difference to putting.

Natalie MacLean 00:45:26 It into another vessel. I don’t think it makes a lot of difference scientifically at least.

David Way 00:45:33 I think aeration in the glass actually is okay. I think if you pull your line into a glass, of course dictate if you want to. If you think there’s a lot of sediment. Yeah, of course, decant it. That’s really the reason for decanting that sort of wine. But I, I’ve been weirdly I tend to decant young fruity wines more than I do older, more structured wines because I think you just get better fruity expression that way.

David Way 00:45:59 so yeah, I’m not a huge fan, but I mean, by all means, do whatever works for you.

Natalie MacLean 00:46:04 Yeah, to each his own, but especially if it’s an elegant wine with sort of Pinot noir like delicacy in the aromas, you might be losing some of that in decanting. Who knows?

David Way 00:46:16 Certainly somebody like Catherine O’Keeffe, who’s been studying this for a very long time. She says exactly that. She says, I never decant old Barolo. And if you notice that if you go to Burgundy, you’ll notice that the Burgundians don’t decant their wines. so I think, yeah, there is a counter-argument.

Natalie MacLean 00:46:34 There are always is. That’s what keeps the debate going. In these Facebook groups, what else would they talk about? Who knows?

David Way 00:46:41 Yeah that’s right.

Natalie MacLean 00:46:48 Well, there you have it. I hope you enjoyed our chat with David. Here are my takeaways. Number one, are you curious about the wines of Piedmont in northern Italy? Well, as David explains, much has been written about Barolo and Barbaresco, those appellations in Piedmont, but very little about the rest of the region.

Natalie MacLean 00:47:07 These two world class wines tend to overshadow the rest of Piedmont. David’s book goes into detail about those other 58 denominations, in addition, of course, to Barolo and Barbaresco. He spent a lot of time traveling and interviewing people not only about these unique places, but also about the local grape varieties that don’t grow anywhere else. Number two, why are Barolo and Barbaresco often compared to Burgundy. David says that Barolo and Barbaresco have many small plots owned by many small growers, so in that sense it’s very much like Burgundy. It’s also similar in that tiny differences of altitude, soil type, vineyard orientation, and wind direction make big differences in the final wine. And just like in Burgundy, you can walk 50m from one vineyard to another, and the wines made from those two vineyards will taste different. The regions also specialize in single variety wines. Aging and wood is important to both, and the parcels of vineyards are so, so small. There are also some big differences in that. The terroir of Barolo and Barbaresco is far more complicated than it is in Burgundy, according to David, because Burgundy is essentially.

Natalie MacLean 00:48:22 This is of course, generalizing. But or summarizing is one big east facing slopes. So you’ve got a very similar aspect in terms of how the grapes ripen. Relatively small range of altitude. Barbaresco and particularly rural low are very different, with vineyards facing southwest. East and south, along with a range of altitudes from about 150m above sea level up to 550m. And finally, what makes Nebbiolo unique as a grape? David believes the magic of Nebbiolo is its extraordinary aromatic complexity and amazing structure. The tannins and acidity give it kind of a wonderful Pinot noir character, which is so aromatic, but it also has structure that’s not too overt, so that it still has a silky texture that can age for decades. In the show notes, you’ll find a full transcript of my conversation with David, links to his website, and books the video versions of these conversations on Facebook and YouTube live, and where you can order my book online now, no matter where you live. If you missed episode 164, go back and take a listen.

Natalie MacLean 00:49:36 I chat about Southern Italy’s wine, food, and flavor with Robert Camuto, author of South of Somewhere. I’ll share a short clip with you now to whet your appetite.

Robert Camuto 00:49:47 Wine back in the day wasn’t something that it is now. It was an accompaniment. It wasn’t the star of the table. When you look at southern Italy, there’s so many darn flavors there and so much delicious spicy food. And fresh tomatoes, peppers, greens, artichokes. Maybe it’s a little more difficult for wine to be the standout star of that.

Natalie MacLean 00:50:12 Because the flavors are so intense.

Robert Camuto 00:50:14 There’s so much else going on at the table, so much other intensity. Everybody loves Burgundy, but what does one eat in Burgundy? There’s some nice parking, John. There’s some nice snails. But it’s not the same thing as having pasta with sea urchins and clams and peppers and all the different sauces. They drank it as a food, as a very simple pairing, and did not savor wine to the extent that we do today.

Natalie MacLean 00:50:48 You won’t want to miss next week when we continue our chat with David.

Natalie MacLean 00:50:51 If you liked this episode or learned even one thing from it, please email or tell a friend about the podcast this week. You can also share with them right from your podcast app, especially someone you know who’d be interested in learning more about the wines of Piedmont. It’s easy to find my podcast. Just tell them to search for Natalie MacLean Wine on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, their favorite podcast app, or they can listen to the show on my website at Natalie MacLean. Com forward slash podcast. Email me if you have a SIP tip question if you’d like to win one of the three books I mentioned in the intro, or one of two copies of David’s book. Or if you’ve read my book or listening to it. I’d love to hear your thoughts about this episode. Were you surprised about the Piedmont region? Are you familiar with the wines of Piedmont beyond Barolo and Barbaresco? And do you have a favorite wine from Piedmont that you can share with me? Email me at Nathalie at Natalie MacLean. Com in the show notes, you’ll also find a link to take a free online food and wine pairing class with me, called the five Wine and Food Pairing Mistakes That Can Ruin Your Dinner and How to Fix Them Forever at Natalie MacLean.

Natalie MacLean 00:51:58 Com forward slash class. That’s all. Everything. The whole thing is in the show notes said Natalie MacLean. Com forward slash 315. Thank you for taking the time to join me here. I hope something great is in your glass this week. Perhaps a luxurious, long lived Piedmont Day wine.

Jo Penn 00:52:23 Natalie MacLean is a multi-award winning wine writer named world’s Best drinks writer at the World Food Media Awards, as well as a sommelier, TV wine expert and host of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast. She’s also the bestselling author of multiple nonfiction books on wine, including unquenchable, named as one of Amazon’s best books of the year, and her latest book is wine, which on fire rising from the ashes of divorce, defamation and Drinking Too Much. So welcome to the show, Natalie.

Natalie MacLean 00:52:59 It is so good to be back here with you. We had an initial chat on my podcast, but I am so looking forward to this. Joe.

Jo Penn 00:53:06 Oh yes. So first up, just tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and publishing.

Natalie MacLean 00:53:13 Sure. So my career path was probably like a lot of folks. I didn’t plan to be a writer. I didn’t have the confidence to be a writer. So I was brought up by a single parent mom. She was a school teacher, so she really pounded it into me. Make sure you get an education that will get you a job. So it was like I wanted to study English, but no, no. So it was PR and an MBA and right into the workforce in high tech marketing. But along the way, I was working for a supercomputer company that was based in Mountain View, California. I’m Canadian and I still live here, but the head office was down where the campus of Google Now is, so I started arranging all of my meetings there when I had to go on Fridays so I could stay over the weekend and drive up to Napa and Sonoma, because while I didn’t have time to learn golf or pottery or anything else, I was dining out a lot with clients or whatever.

Natalie MacLean 00:54:11 And so I really grew to love wine, so that sparked my interest in wine. But then while I was off on maternity leave, I thought, well, I have to keep my brain active somehow. And I had taken a sommelier course just for fun, because that’s what Type A’s do. it was a good thing I wasn’t taking golf lessons because, you know, long iron clubs and type A, that’s just not a good combination. But wine worked. So while I was off on that leave, I pitched the editor of a local food magazine because I noticed they had all these gorgeous recipes, but no wine content. And I knew just enough about wine to be a little dangerous. And she said yes, okay, have you published before? And I said yes, praying that she would not ask me to send samples because all I had was my high school newspaper. Nice. Yeah. So she gave me a chance. The first article or column was how to find wine and food pairings on the internet.

Natalie MacLean 00:55:13 That was the headline back then. It’s gotten much more specific since, but that led to a regular column which gave me the confidence just to cold call other editors, and I started landing columns in some of our national newspapers here in Canada and magazines. I didn’t know anybody. I was a nobody from nowhere who kind of made a career out of nothing. But, you know, I loved it so much that by the time my maternity leave was over, which is generous here in Canada was almost a year, I decided not to go back. I had found something that really sparked a passion. Wine gave me the confidence to write. I had a hook because otherwise I would have never thought, oh, someone’s going to pay me to write and I could be home with my son. So it just all worked. And that’s kind of how it came together.

Jo Penn 00:56:01 Just all that. Should we just be clear that you were not swigging bottles of wine during your maternity?

Natalie MacLean 00:56:06 Yes. No need to call child services.

Natalie MacLean 00:56:09 Mommy doesn’t drink while she’s pregnant. I had finished the sommelier course while I was pregnant. In all seriousness, I never took a drop. and that remains the health guidance. There are a lot of tips in my book about cutting back on drinking. I didn’t mean to write a self-help book, but it kind of turned into that for some people. But definitely, yeah, I was not swinging. I was not giving my little guy Pinot Noir early on, but it just, you know, wine touched all my senses. I often say you could do a liberal arts degree with wine as the hub. It ties to all facets of human endeavor, you know, history, art, religion, commerce, science, war, politics. So it just fascinated me beyond the, the buzz of it.

Jo Penn 00:56:54 Oh, and let’s add dating and sex too.

Natalie MacLean 00:56:57 Yes, absolutely. It’s it’s well there’s a reason why it’s a better social lubricant than say orange juice.

Jo Penn 00:57:02 So yeah. Absolutely. No that’s fantastic. And then again just so people know when was that.

Jo Penn 00:57:08 Like it wasn’t like last year. How long have you now been doing this.

Natalie MacLean 00:57:14 So my son was born at the end of 98. So it’s been 25 years. Yeah, it’s been a time.

Jo Penn 00:57:22 Yeah, I think and that’s really important because what you just described, they’re starting out having nothing, not lying to start, but saying, you know, my publication was a while ago and now multi-award winning. I mean, you were so super successful. And I think some people look at the journey or they forget the journey and they just kind of see you now. And I mean, I’m not as lauded as you are at all, but people look at how many books I’ve written, for example, and they’re like, how did you do that? And I’m like, well, 16 years of doing this. So that’s the thing, isn’t it? It’s year after year and you’ve just added to it year after year, and you just keep.

Natalie MacLean 00:57:59 Plugging away at it. And what’s the adage is compare and despair? But what the mistake that I used to make is I’m comparing my sort of back end.

Natalie MacLean 00:58:09 I know what’s going on in my life to somebody else’s front end, which looks amazing. Like if you ever look at Instagram, everybody’s life is perfect, but you don’t see what goes on behind the scenes or how long it took them to get there. And you also don’t see that for every win, whether it’s a book published or an award or whatever, there’s 76 losses or no’s from editors or whatever, like it’s just going up to bat or whatever over and over and over and keeping going.

Jo Penn 00:58:39 So I think what’s interesting about your writing is obviously you still write about wine and food pairings on your website, but also for loads of other places. You do reviews, you do articles on wine, but wine, which on fire and some of your other books are much more personal. So what are the challenges of writing memoir compared to your more journalistic writing?

Natalie MacLean 00:59:02 So if I was written from a first person perspective, I like to be conversational. But memoir as a whole, as you know, Joe, a whole other animal from non-fiction and even from fiction, you know, memoir share so many techniques of fiction.

Natalie MacLean 00:59:18 I had to learn a new genre of writing. Really, that’s how it felt. I had to learn about plot and setting and character and conflict and themes and all the rest of it, and dual timelines and all of this that I did not have to do when writing a straightforward non-fiction book about wine or travel. So I write about wine travel. It was so complex, and yet that’s what also made it exhilarating. Memoir is a true account, or at least the way you understand the truth of what happened in your life. But you have all these other techniques that it’s a mountain to climb, but it’s definitely doable. But again, you have to keep at it. And I took all kinds of like, online courses. I started listening to your podcast, which has been immensely helpful. So that’s sort of one set of challenges. And then with memoir, if you’re writing about anything juicy, it’s probably something bad that happened to you because no one wants to write about here’s my perfect life or read.

Natalie MacLean 01:00:15 And it all turned out nicely. So of course I write about my no good, terrible, very bad vintage personally and professionally in wine, which. And to do that, you really have to dig into your own dirt and be honest, be vulnerable. But also, in a sense, you have to relive what you went through. You know, they’ve done MRI scans on the brains of people who’ve been through a traumatic car crash, survived, but then they read them the script of what happened during that car crash. And the same areas of the brain are lighting up. So you’re not remembering it. You’re reliving it. So that is another challenge of memoir that you’re going to have to go back into those scenes of your own life and really relive them if you want to tell it in full detail.

Jo Penn 01:00:59 Yeah.

Jo Penn 01:00:59 And you mentioned there how you understand the truth. And I get quite obsessed around the word truth as in truth with a capital T versus the small T, because there are some things that obviously happened or didn’t happen.

Jo Penn 01:01:13 But how we write about it in memoir is how we see it, and other people can see it in quite a different way. So the example being you and I have both had relationship breakups, you know, I’m sure everyone has. But, you know, divorce particularly and divorce, I always think of it as a good example. My parents are divorced, my husband’s parents were divorced, divorced from two different perspectives. It’s such a different thing. And if I if both partners wrote a memoir, it would be completely different from their perspective. So what what are your recommendations to people listening when you’re trying to tell the truth, but also to realize it’s not the only truth?

Natalie MacLean 01:01:50 Exactly. So you can always put that caveat up front. The author’s note that says, this is how I understand what happened. It’s my story, my story alone. It’s not someone else’s story. Even though other people may come into your story, in order for you to tell your story. You have to stick to your story.

Natalie MacLean 01:02:10 So if there are parts about somebody else’s life that really don’t play a role in you telling your story, leave it out. Let them tell their story if they want to in their own memoir. Stick to your own story. The other thing that I had to do was, you know, I’ve always competitiveness and perfectionism are kind of the the two snakes in my life. You know, as I say, you know, one is a cobra that, you know will bite you. the other is a boa constrictor that will squeeze the life out of you. So I’m dealing with that all the time trying to, during this memoir, kind of get past that. So showing my flotsam all my flaws, because I think it’s only in being very honest with yourself and on the page that anyone’s going to relate to you. Because for me, a memoir is is not exactly what you did. what happened to you, because your story is going to be so different from anybody else’s, but what you did with it, how you recovered from it and so on, what people can take away from that story.

Natalie MacLean 01:03:14 So I always tried to be harder on myself than anyone else, questioning myself, my own motives and so on. as opposed to a memoir never works if it’s a revenge book or if you’re tilting the story some way, readers are too smart and it serves no one, including the author.

Jo Penn 01:03:32 Yeah, absolutely. And it can be, like legally difficult. And it’s not it’s not your therapy. You have to kind of be past therapy. But I wanted to come back to something else. So you’re a sommelier and you’re a super taster, which I discovered when I read your memoir. And this fascinates me because I’m very visual in my writing and I in my mind’s eye, I see, I see the thing play out, and then I write what I see. So I’ll often use the language. I see that, you know, other people obviously here taste is like literally something I always forgot in books and smell I forgotten books. And then with Covid, I kind of lost a lot of what I even had left.

Jo Penn 01:04:10 and it never really came back. So I wanted to ask you for some tips on sensory writing and how you. I mean, you write about wine over and over and over again, like you must have such a range of sensory details because otherwise it would get quite repetitive. So what are your tips for doing this and what is the world like when you are a super taster?

Natalie MacLean 01:04:31 Well, I must say though, I read Blood Vintage. As you know Joe, and I think your sensory detail was amazing. Not just the visual, but the smell and the taste. I thought you did a great job.

Jo Penn 01:04:41 Thank you.

Natalie MacLean 01:04:43 You’ve mastered that. So answer the last question first. As a super taster, it just means you’re very hyper aware of your sensory environment. I got tested to in California by Master of Wine. He actually measured my taste buds with like a kind of an iodine thing and a caliber thing. And. Yeah, I’m not scientific. Anyway, that was the net net. You’re super taster.

Natalie MacLean 01:05:08 25% of the population are. Most of them tend to be women. We don’t know if that’s evolution, because we were the ones cooking or tasting the berries before giving them to the children. Or we’re just. We’re more practiced in it today, sensing and sniffing and perfume and all the rest of it. But it was Doctor Linda Berisha at Yale University of Medicine who discovered the phenomenon. And she said, super tasters live in a hyper sensory world. It’s like having 500 fingers rather than ten or a hyper neon world. Yeah, it’s a lot of fun, Joe.

Jo Penn 01:05:43 Sounds overwhelming.

Natalie MacLean 01:05:45 It is, it is. Why do I drink and why did I used to over drink? But it’s noticing everything. And without my telling him, the the person, the master of wine who tested me, he said, I’ll bet you you remove your tags from your clothing. You don’t like zippers. You have thermostat wars with your family. I’m saying that’s just creepy. He’s so right on. So it’s just a matter of noticing over noticing.

Natalie MacLean 01:06:09 So that leads me to my answer to my question. To your question, how do you get better at sensory detail? Start noticing everything, slow down and pay attention. You do not have to be a super taster. You can be a super noticing though. So I teach online food and wine pairing classes, and one of the first things we talk about is pay attention to everything in your life. So when you cut open a vegetable or a fruit, that’s when it’s most pungent. Smell it, taste it, put that into your mind. Give it a name, say it out loud. You’ll remember it better doing it that way. Because we live in a very visual culture, but we’ve forgotten our sense of smell. It’s kind of downgraded to there was a study of graduate students and they said, which sense would you give up for your smartphone? And with smell. But we know that loss of smell like really it can lead to depression and all sorts of things. So notice everything in your life.

Natalie MacLean 01:07:05 I even tell them sniff the leather furniture in your living room. Just don’t let anyone catch you doing it. but notice everything and then start naming it, and you will develop a vocabulary that you can call on in your writing or when you’re tasting wine or whatever. Notice differences. The other thing we do is we don’t taste one wine alone. We’ll put them side by side or have a flight of wines. and notice the differences. Hey, that one smells different. Why? And again, it’s just about paying attention. It’s like when a movie critic goes to a movie, they don’t just sit back. They’ve got their notes. They’re, you know, making notes on plot and narrative. Just pay attention. You’ll you’ll open up your world, your vocabulary. And I think you’re writing.

Jo Penn 01:07:47 Yeah. And I think also it’s being more specific. So for example, and a lot of writers get this wrong, they might say it smelled of apples, let’s say. Whereas if you were tasting a wine, I presume you would say like a Granny Smith apple or green apple versus a red apple or a or Golden Delicious or whatever you have in Canada.

Natalie MacLean 01:08:09 Exactly. After a spring rain and the and the the Orchard managers had an argument with his daughter. No, I wouldn’t go on that way. But but you’re right. Specificity. Isn’t that what writing is about? Like getting more and more specific so people can, you know, paint that picture in their mind of where you are or what you’re talking about.

Jo Penn 01:08:27 Yeah, absolutely. So another thing that I love from the book in is terroir, which, you know, we talked about a lot when I came on your show and and In Blood vintage is very important. But, I feel like it’s a word that’s thrown around a lot, but that perhaps some people don’t know what it mean. so why is that important for wine? But also in your book, I love that you compared that to the author’s voice. So why make that comparison? Tell us about terroir.

Natalie MacLean 01:08:51 Yeah. Thank you. I opened the book. Well, actually, only those who are watching the video can see this, but there’s a wine label at the beginning of the book that kind of sets up for the contents of the book, the memoir, and a domain.

Natalie MacLean 01:09:03 McLean and then I talk about terroir. but for me, terroir in the wine world means it’s a magical combination of like soil, geography, climate, weather, the decisions the winemaker makes, all of these different influences that come together to create the final taste of the wine. And I think we do it, you know, as writers, the parallel would be our word choice like our point of view, our humor, our dialogue. All those different techniques come together to form your voice. We often hear that in courses or rejection letters. You know, I want to hear your voice. What is your writer’s voice? I think it’s all of those things that are working together and that are uniquely you. And if you picked up a book and it didn’t have your name on it or an essay. Someone would know it’s you. Just like someone would know. This wine is definitely a Pinot noir from California. It isn’t from Burgundy, and we could get even more specific than that. But that’s basically how I think about it.

Jo Penn 01:10:07 Yeah, I think one of the issues with a lot of teaching of writing is that often and we have to self edit, obviously we believe in editing and we believe in working with editors as well. But often when you’re editing, I feel like there’s something in your brain that says, oh, that’s to me like I should be more professional in my writing, or I shouldn’t say that because it’s too colloquial or. But often those are the things that actually emerge as your voice that make you not like everyone else.

Natalie MacLean 01:10:38 Exactly. And you know, I like puns, even though they’re supposedly the lowest form of humor, lowest intellectual form of humor. But, you know, so you learn to, like, not overdo it so that it’s not one big groaner, but let a little through. If that’s what if that’s who you are? You know, in the wine world, I stopped capitalizing words like Pinot Noir and Cabernet and was like, oh, shock. or using contractions. And, you know, I am I’m, you know, it’s a very wine writing can be very stiff and jargony, but I wanted to make it conversational.

Natalie MacLean 01:11:13 So it’s all those little tiny touches along the way. Again, it’s a sense of vulnerability, of being okay to show yourself to the world. As I say these days, everyone knows everything about everyone anyway. Everything. So why not show them the parts you want without harshly editing yourself? Because they’re going to find out some bits and bobs anyway, so why not welcome them in?

Jo Penn 01:11:38 Yeah, and again, that’s a longer term thing. I think some people in fact, I was talking to, an early stage writer the other day and she said, oh, I just won’t put stuff about me online. And I was like, that’s if you want a career this way, it’s actually impossible, a long term career, because you just can’t keep yourself away from everybody entirely. I mean, you have to have your boundaries, clearly. But there’s you just can’t stay completely separate. So if you’re sort of open from the beginning, then that’s all good. Right.

Natalie MacLean 01:12:12 For better or worse, we are all brands as authors, as business owners.

Natalie MacLean 01:12:16 If you self-publish or even traditional and people want to know the person behind the book, I’ll keep dragging this back to wine just because it’s, that’s what.

Jo Penn 01:12:25 You do.

Natalie MacLean 01:12:26 That’s what I do. But when people present a bottle of wine, whether it’s at a dinner party or they’re asking for a recommendation and restaurant, we’re fascinated by that. If there’s a story with that bottle, every bottle has a story, every book has a story, but it’s the person behind the bottle. Like, did they struggle and live in a van for seven years? And then they finally got a break and they got a high score from a famous critic or whatever. Like we want to know who made this. Where did it come from? We don’t want generic wines any more than we want completely. I written books, there’s no human touch. We want to see what’s behind, who’s behind the books and the bottles.

Jo Penn 01:13:04 Which is why I think memoir is even more important than ever. Because when I think about the writers whose memoir I’ve read, I feel like I know them as a person far more.

Jo Penn 01:13:14 Whereas to be honest, I read fiction every day or every night. I read fiction before I go to bed. And yes, there are some writers who I follow in other ways, but most of them I just want to read the story. I just want the book. And with a lot of nonfiction, it’s I just want the information. So I think there is a difference. A memoir is the most personal of genres, really, which is why it’s so challenging. But I also think the most or most important for standing out, I guess.

Natalie MacLean 01:13:43 Absolutely. Yeah. You’ve got to be all in. So it’s the most challenging, the most scary and the most rewarding, I think can be for the reader and the writer. But you have to be all in. You can’t just hedge it a little bit and I’ll tell this a little bit, but I don’t want to I want to edit out that, you know.

Natalie MacLean 01:13:59 Yeah, that’s true now of course.

Jo Penn 01:14:01 So talking of putting ourselves out there, one of the things that authors are most scared of is being attacked online, being canceled.

Jo Penn 01:14:10 The negative side of being out there, of putting your head up above the parapet, you know, and getting shot at. This happened to.

Natalie MacLean 01:14:18 You in this terrible way, and the.

Jo Penn 01:14:20 Book goes into it in more detail. So just briefly explain what happened, but also, more importantly, how did you deal with it in that moment of not moment months of crisis management and practically and also with your mental health?

Natalie MacLean 01:14:37 I didn’t deal with it that well at first. So what happened? Just to summarize without going down a rabbit hole. Is that this? This happened ten years ago. But I do think the issues are even more relevant today. This was in the heyday of aggregators Huffington Post, Rotten Tomatoes, etc. and I was looking at different sites and there were a few wine sites quoting my wine reviews, even though I had they had invited me to be part of their website, but I declined because I had my own website. So I noticed, okay, they’re quoting my wine reviews, why are they doing that? And then I realized they were quoting my reviews from our provincial liquor store, which is government owned.

Natalie MacLean 01:15:16 And so I thought, well, that must be okay. Wrong. And so I started quoting all the reviews from the liquor board because I thought, oh, that will give my readers more context. So I’ll have my review and then I will have it clearly separated. This is a different review from another writer, just like Rotten Tomatoes will gather movie critic reviews. But that little bonfire and, allegations of copyright infringement or misattribution, all the rest of it. So I did get legal help. I sorted it all out. In the end, I was within the bounds of what we call fair dealing in Canada. It’s fair use in the United States in terms of what you can quote and how much you can quote, but in terms of dealing with it at the time, it kind of hit me like a mack truck out of the blue. And at that time, it was just before Christmas. It’s a lovely nightmare before Christmas holiday feel bad story. You know, it has a happy ending, but at the time I thought strength meant dealing with it myself independently and not dragging friends and family into this mess that was happening online.

Natalie MacLean 01:16:24 And I thought, you know, I can handle it. And I went for a week without telling anyone what was happening. I was just watching these nasty streams of social media and all the rest of it happening online in the wine world, admittedly, but still, in my world, it was a tsunami, and in that time it was about 11. So 11, 11 days I lost £9. And subsequently I developed a heart murmur. So people say sticks and stones will break my bones, you know, whatever. It’s just the internet. Turn it off. But if you live online or make your earning online as we do, if we have online businesses, you can no more turn it off than a surgeon can operate outside the hospital. So day after day I drank the venom and that was a mistake. So the first thing was leaning on friends and family and bringing them in, admitting this awful thing has happened. Yes, I’m involved and partially responsible for not communicating better. And you know what happened? And I thought it would just be an exercise in shame.

Natalie MacLean 01:17:34 But what it turned out to be was an exercise in strength That my friends and family were there to help me, to support me. My hot buttons. What triggered me online weren’t their hot buttons, so they didn’t care if so-and-so was saying whatever. They were there for me and it was such a relief. It was just a psychic relief. And then, you know, then dealing with the crisis, you have to do the things you need to do. I got legal advice, you know, originally I was enrolled in the combined business program law degree, I dropped law, I just finished the MBA, but I sure got my law degree in the end by the end of it in terms of copyright, invasion of privacy, suing for defamation, all the rest of all those issues that writers worry about. I took a crash course. So I got really solid legal advice and then took steps after that to address what the people were saying online. But at a certain point, you also have to stop responding.

Natalie MacLean 01:18:37 You know, you have to block and walk. Block them, then walk and ignore them. And tempting as it is, even though what they’re saying is if you stop reading it, you’ve done what you can do, then you need to remove yourself, or it’s just going to take all of your creative energy out of you and it will have a physical impact in many cases.

Jo Penn 01:18:58 Yeah, yeah.

Natalie MacLean 01:19:05 You don’t want to miss one juicy episode of this podcast, especially the secret full bodied bonus episodes that I don’t announce on social media. So subscribe for free now at Natalie MacLean. Com forward slash. Subscribe. Meet me here next week. Cheers.

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