Introduction
Which types of global dishes can you pair with South American wines? What’s one of the best but little-known Chilean wine regions you need to try? Which types of wine do they make in other South American countries, such as Uruguay, Peru, Bolivia and Brazil?
In this episode of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, I’m chatting with Amanda Barnes, author of The South America Wine Guide.
You can find the wines we discussed here.
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Giveaway
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Highlights
- How did Argentina’s flagship white wine, Torrontés, develop and where is it grown?
- Which types of food pair best with Torrontés and Malbec?
- How does the iconic Argentinian empanada vary across different regions?
- What is unique about how Fernet is consumed in Argentina?
- How did the pandemic contribute to the craft gin and craft vermouth movement in Argentina?
- How do the wine production volume and cultural attitudes towards wine vary between Argentina and Chile?
- What were the main challenges that were uncovered by the discovery of Carmenère in Chile?
- How did Tannat become the signature grape of Uraguay, and what’s unique about its growing requirements?
- How did Peru become the first wine country in South America, and what’s behind the current wine renaissance?
- Which wines from Bolivia should you try, and what’s behind their unique characteristics?
- How has the Brazilian wine industry evolved over the years?
- What does Amanda love about mountain white wines like Altos Las Hormigas Blanco?
- What is it about Viñedos de Alcohuaz that gives it a beautiful tasting experience?
- Why is an ice bag Amanda’s favourite wine gadget?
Key Takeaways
- I enjoyed hearing Amanda’s recommendations for which types of global dishes you can pair with South American wines. The highly aromatic Torrontes can handle equally flavourful dishes.
- Amanda has inspired me to try more wines from Chile’s Elqui Valley. It’s amazing that some vineyards are planted at 2,200 metres above sea level.
- I was interested to learn more about the types of wine they make in other South American countries, such as Uruguay, Peru, Bolivia and Brazil. I didn’t realize that Peru was the first wine region in South America.
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About Amanda Barnes
Amanda Barnes is an award-winning British journalist and editor who specializes in wine and travel writing. She is an expert in South American wine and regions and a regular correspondent international wine and travel publications (including Decanter, Fodor’s, SevenFifty, The Guardian & The Telegraph). She is currently studying to become a Master of Wine and is author of the South America Wine Guide.
Resources
- Connect with Amanda Barnes
- Wines We Tasted
- Wine Ice Bag
- Unreserved Wine Talk | Episode 265: Malbec Magic: Argentina’s Bold Twist on a Classic with Amanda Barnes, Author of The South America Wine Guide
- The Right Amount Standard Drink Calculator
- Diary of a Book Launch: An Insider Peek from Idea to Publication
- Wine Witch on Fire Free Companion Guide for Book Clubs
- My Books:
- Unreserved Wine Talk | Episode 5: Wine & Health: Benefits, Risks and Surprises with Dr. Edward Miller
- My new class The 5 Wine & Food Pairing Mistakes That Can Ruin Your Dinner And How To Fix Them Forever
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- Email Me at [email protected]
Thirsty for more?
- Sign up for my free online wine video class where I’ll walk you through The 5 Wine & Food Pairing Mistakes That Can Ruin Your Dinner (and how to fix them forever!)
- You’ll find my books here, including Unquenchable: A Tipsy Quest for the World’s Best Bargain Wines and Red, White and Drunk All Over: A Wine-Soaked Journey from Grape to Glass.
- The new audio edition of Red, White and Drunk All Over: A Wine-Soaked Journey from Grape to Glass is now available on Amazon.ca, Amazon.com and other country-specific Amazon sites; iTunes.ca, iTunes.com and other country-specific iTunes sites; Audible.ca and Audible.com.
Transcript
Amanda Barnes (00:00):
Torrontés is easy to drink. The slightly more serious Torrontés. Much more kind of elegant and focused and fresh. I think those are beautiful wines for the Asian cuisine or sushi or those aromatic grape varieties like Gewürztraminer or Muscats that has lots of flavours of its own and they work quite nicely with slightly spicier foods, which can be hard to pair with other wines. You need to make sure that your dish is equally as aromatic and flavourful. And then also it’s quite light bodied, so you don’t want to go down the road of heavy meat or cream. So those are my recommendations. Asian cuisine and sushi, and still by the swimming pool [laughter]
Natalie MacLean (00:41):
Absolutely.
Natalie MacLean
Do you have a thirst to learn about wine? Do you love stories about wonderfully obsessive people, hauntingly beautiful places and amusingly awkward social situations? Well, that’s the blend here on the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast. I’m your host, Natalie MacLean, and each week I share with you unfiltered conversations with celebrities in the wine world, as well as confessions from my own tipsy journey as I write my third book on this subject. I’m so glad you’re here. Now pass me that bottle please and let’s get started.
(01:36):
Welcome to episode 266. Which types of global dishes can you pair with South American wines? What’s one of the best but least known Chilean wine regions that you need to try? And which types of wines do they make in other South American countries such as Uruguay, Peru, Bolivia, and Brazil? In today’s episode, you’ll hear the stories and tips that answer those questions in Part Two of our chat with Amanda Barnes, author of the South American Wine Guide. You don’t need to have listened to Part One from last week first, but I hope you’ll go back to it if you missed it after you listening to this one. One of you is going to win a copy of Amanda’s beautiful hardcover book. All you need to do is email me and let me know that you’d like to win. I’ll choose one person randomly from those who contact me at [email protected]. I also still have one copy left of How to Taste: a Guide to Discovering Flavour and Savouring Life by Mandy Naglich to give away, as well as one copy of Vintage Crime: a Short History of Wine Fraud by Master of Wine Rebecca Gibb. So let me know if you’d like to win any one of these three books.
(02:54):
I hope you had a wonderful holiday. Are you thinking of doing dry January, damp January, or even perhaps moderating your wine consumption throughout 2024? If so, I wanted to let you know about a new online drinks calculator developed by Wine Growers Canada, a nonprofit organization that represents Canadian wineries. You can use this tool to calculate how many standard drinks you’re consuming of any type of wine. It doesn’t have to be Canadian. So why should we measure how much wine or alcohol we’re consuming? Well, I think there’s a reason we don’t eat an entire chocolate cake at dinner, even though some of us would love to. That excess doesn’t taste or feel good, nor is it good for us. We’re also not savouring the cake as we would with the right size, serving the right amount. I think wine is like that, too. It’s the drink of conversation over a good meal meant to be savoured slowly for all its sensory pleasures.
(03:59):
There’s a reason wine isn’t served in a shooter glass. It’s not meant to be knocked back quickly like some other alcoholic drinks. So what is the right amount of wine to consume? Well, that varies by person and for some the right amount is none because of a medical condition, pregnancy, or a host of other reasons. Health Canada’s guidelines remain the same as they were in 2011. Two drinks maximum per day for women, maximum 10 per week. And three per day for men or 15 per week. There’s been a lot of confusion recently about the new, so-called Canadian guidelines stating that the maximum amount is two drinks per week and others stipulating that no amount of alcohol is safe. However, these recommendations are not federally endorsed by Health Canada. Rather, they come from a special interest group called the Canadian Center for Substance Abuse, CCSA, that has a mandate of abstinence or zero alcohol.
(05:00):
In my opinion, their recommendations have caused a lot of unnecessary fear and despair among those of us who love wine but who want a healthy relationship with it. Wine is part of the cuisine of many diverse cultures and part of social wellbeing. For many of us, it’s the way we get together with others over a family meal or out at a restaurant or at a friend’s house. Now in my book Wine Witch On Fire: Rising from the Ashes of Divorce, Defamation, and Drinking Too Much, I share openly about how I started leaning on wine too hard during my no good, terrible, very bad vintage, both personally and professionally. 10 years ago I asked my therapist, Miranda, if I should stop drinking altogether and go sober. One of several sessions I include in the book. After all, my father was an alcoholic, and alcoholism or alcohol use disorder runs on both sides of my family.
Miranda thought that would be punitive and that we should focus on harm reduction first. The health benefits when we move from excessive drinking to moderate drinking are far greater than those derived from moderate drinking to zero drinking. I didn’t mean to write a self-help book, but it’s turned into that in terms of how early readers are responding to it. Now yes I admit I am biased. I love wine and I earn my living by writing about it, but I am also passionate about spreading its pleasures, and I believe that many people can enjoy it without having to decide between all or nothing. The tips on how I cut back are in the book and I shared them in an editorial piece this week that was published in the Vancouver Sun, Calgary Herald, Ottawa Citizen, Montreal Gazette, and several other newspapers. I also talked about them on CTVs morning shows, CTV News and the 6:00PM newscasts last week when I was discussing the new drinks calculator. I should note that I volunteered to do this again because I believe in the message of moderation and Wine Growers Canada is not compensating me in any way.
One of the things that makes calculating the right amount challenging is that not all wine glasses are created equal. Some glasses are fairly small like a traditional Champagne flute glass, and yet I’ve seen others that are so large they can hold the contents of an entire bottle, and then after you’re finished, you can use them for steamed facial. Similarly, with wine, we assume that all 750 mil bottles of wine contain five glasses of wine or so five standard drinks, but that’s not the case. One bottle can have four standard drinks and another seven because they have very different levels of alcohol. All of these factors come into play when understanding the right amount of wine for you. The new drinks calculator allows you to plug in the number of ounces or milliliters of wine that you’re pouring, the amount of alcohol in the wine, which you’ll find on the bottle label in small type, and then it’ll tell you how many standard drinks that is.
(08:12):
So for example, a five ounce pour of wine with 12% alcohol is one standard drink. But if the wine has 15% alcohol, then you have to go down to a four ounce pour to equal one standard drink, which by the way can look very small in your glass. That’s why I try to drink lower alcohol wines, those that are under 13%. During the TV segments, I got out a measuring cup and showed how dramatically different a three, six, and nine ounce pour looks in the same sized glass. It’s something I suggest you do as well so that you know how much you’re consuming and visually you can gauge what it looks like, though I do not recommend bringing a measuring cup to a restaurant because well that’s just weird. Check out the drinks calculator at TheRightAmount.ca. I’ll put this link in the show notes.
if you haven’t got your copy of Wine Witch on Fire: Rising from the Ashes of Divorce, Defamation, and Drinking Too Much yet and would like to support it and this podcast that I do on a volunteer basis, please order it from any online book retailer no matter where you live. It will usually arrive in a day or two, and of course the ebook is instant. Every little bit helps spread the message in this book of hope, justice, and resilience. I’ll put a link in the show notes to all retailers worldwide at nataliemaclean.com/266 slash.
If you’ve read the book or are reading it, I’d love to hear from you at [email protected]. I’d also love to hear from you with ideas about who we should have on the podcast this year. I’m looking for guests who are great storytellers who can entertain and educate us at the same time. They could be writers, wine makers, sommeliers, chefs, or experts in other related areas such as health and wine, cheese and wine, charcuterie and wine. Well, you get the idea. If you have any other suggestions on how to improve this podcast, please let me know. Okay on with the show.
Natalie MacLean
Torrontés. I love the way you pronounce things. It’s so much better because you’re native Spanish speaker, right? I think?
Amanda Barnes (10:32):
Well, not native.
Natalie MacLean (10:34):
Not native, Sorry, bilingual.
Amanda Barnes (10:36):
I speak, yes, I’ve been here long enough that I speak. I can defend myself [laughter].
Natalie MacLean (10:41):
That’s always important [laughter]. Torrontés is the sort of flagship white wine of Argentina, the one it’s best known for. And its beautiful floral expression of a grape. Was it originally a cross of three different Spanish grapes?
Amanda Barnes (10:54):
No. So this is one of the ones that is the child of those two varieties that I mentioned. The first that came to South America […]. The three that you are talking about is there are three varieties of Torrontés. So we have Torrontés Riojano, which is the most planted and the highest quality. And that is a direct descendant of them two. It’s a cross of them both and native. It’s kind of happened naturally in the vineyards. And then we’ve got Sanjuanino, which is the same, but every time a grape crosses you have a different child. It’s like parents and children. And so again, it’s a Torrontés but it’s a different variety. We call it Torrontés Sanjuanino. And then we’ve got Torrontés Mendocino, which we actually don’t know who one of the parents was. So it’s completely different ball game, but has similar expressions.
But the one that you’re most likely to be drinking is Riojano. And the names are related to where they were discovered. Riojana in Argentina, Sajuanino in Argentina, and Mendocino in Argentina. But they’re not related to necessarily where they’re grown today. Riojana is grown all over Argentina and most of the wine in […] are Riojana. So yeah, it’s a more complex topic than probably most people want to be listening to at this while drinking wine [laughter].
Natalie MacLean
Sure [laughter] sure.
Amanda Barnes
In my book, I do detail the differences between them, and it is ongoing kind of study here to figure out those differences and how to where they’re best suited and how to vinify them best.
Natalie MacLean (12:27):
And of course, because you’re in the southern hemisphere, as you go south it gets colder because north in their country it’s closer to the equator. So Torrontés you were mentioning Salta, which is more in the south end of the country…
Amanda Barnes
North.
Natalie MacLean
North. It’s north. Okay. I’m completely confusing everybody.
Amanda Barnes (12:46):
Salta is the one that’s right up in the north. One of the northern most ones.
Natalie MacLean (12:52):
And where’s Patagonia in relation to that?
Amanda Barnes (12:55):
In the south.
Natalie MacLean (12:55):
In the south, okay.
Amanda Barnes (12:57):
Far in the south.
Natalie MacLean (12:57):
Far in the south. So do they also grow Torrontés in Patagonia?
Amanda Barnes (13:01):
Yes, they do. I mean Torrontés can grow anywhere really, but they’re more interested in cooler climate varieties like Chardonnay, Riesling, Gewürztraminer in the south and Patagonia. But Patagonia is very big as well, so it’s difficult to. You’ve got traditional regions like Rio Negro and Neuquen, which are the beginning of Patagonia, and there you can ripen Cabernet Sauvignon. It’s not that cold. And then we’ve got the new emerging Patagonia, which is much further south, which is Chubut, and that’s where I think some people have Merlot planted. Some people have Malbec planted, but typically it’s more Pinot noir [and] Chardonnay, earlier ripening, cooler climate varieties.
Natalie MacLean (13:44):
Okay. And what do you like to pair with Torrontés? Do you have some favourite food pairings?
Amanda Barnes (13:49):
Yeah, I mean, Torrontés is the first wine. When I got here is kind of on a backpack of budget, it was the first wine that I really was always convinced that you could buy it for very little and it was easy to drink and very nice, and it was a solid kind of white wine to drink chilled and have by the swimming pool or with friends, just by itself. They were slightly more serious styles than they are now, which are much more elegant and focused and fresh. I think those are beautiful wines for kind of Asian cuisine or sushi. Those aromatic grape varieties like Gewürztraminer or Muscats, they’re always nice with something that’s quite aromatic and has lots of flavours of its own. And they work quite nicely with slightly spicier foods, which can be hard to pair with other wines.
Natalie MacLean
It’s true.
Amanda Barnes
So I like for Torrontés that kind of cuisine, but it can overwhelm a very simple dish. So that’s the challenge with Torrontés. You’ve got a highly aromatic grape variety, so you need to make sure that your dish is equally as aromatic and flavourful. And then also it’s quite light bodied, so you don’t want to go down the road of heavy meats or anything like that or kind of cream or anything. This is quite a kind of delicate, lighter bodied grape. So those are my recommendations.
Natalie MacLean (15:07):
Sounds good.
Amanda Barnes (15:07):
Asian cuisine and definitely kind of sushi and still by the swimming pool [laughter].
Natalie MacLean (15:12):
[laughter] Absolutely. And favourite food pairings for Malbec? Maybe an unusual one as well?
Amanda Barnes (15:19):
Well, it depends on the type of Malbec…
Natalie MacLean
Sure.
Amanda Barnes
… because you’ve got all those different kind of ranges of styles. I mean, there’s nothing better than a classic steak with Malbec. That unusual for Malbec. I mean, some of the really nice, lighter, more fine bodied and focused, precise, linear, less oak expressions, I think you can treat like you would Italian, some Italian wines. And so I quite like if I’m making a nice pasta dish or anything, even if it’s a kind of white based sauce, I’d still consider Malbec for those pairings because those kind of modern, contemporary styles of Malbec, they don’t require the fat or the grilled flavours in order to pair with them. They’re much more delicate. They’re much more focused on spice and fruit and nice acidity. So they’re a lot more versatile in pairings.
Natalie MacLean (16:09):
Speaking of fat and grill, of course, the traditional Argentine method – you’ve called it a fire cooking culture – the Asado, the outdoor barbecue or grill. Let’s talk about the empanadas that are often part of that, an early part of the meal. Why are they so iconic in the meal?
Amanda Barnes (16:28):
I think. One time, I think many years ago I was writing an article about the humble empanada and actually looking at the world variations. I think every culture has their version of an empanada. Like in England we have the pasty, like in India they have the samosa, everyone’s got their empanada. But here in South America, Brazil has pastel. In Chile and Argentina, it’s both the empanadas the same as in Uruguay. But everyone has their version of empanada.
Natalie MacLean (16:53):
A pastry essentially, right?
Amanda Barnes (16:55):
Yeah, a pastry stuffed with something. A pie. And so in Argentina it changes as well. The meat empanada is the classic, but the recipe changes depending on where you are. So if you’re in the north in Salta, it will typically have more spices. It will have a little bit of […], a little bit of chili pepper in there and raisins if you’re more towards the east, that kind of sweetness. They might add some sugar in where they have real sweet tooth. And then in Mensa, the typical empanada has about 50% onion, so it’s quite high on the onion quantity and potato. And there can be differences in terms of whether you’re adding olive or a hard boiled egg or your balance of onion and all the rest. So I think it’s just become the symbol of each region is their particular empanada style. And they’re just perfect little morsels to have either during the day for a lunch or the way that you start open up your evening with a salad. And it’s the first thing that comes out of the grill. And normally it has to be in a kind of clay oven style grill. You cook them before you start with the meat and all the rest, and they’re just delicious. And the pairing varies as well. So in the north they will pair Torrontés, and here in Mendocino it will always be Malbec. So they’re just lovely kind of regional expressions of different places and their favourite kind of pairings, and they’re delicious.
Natalie MacLean (18:17):
I’ve heard lard or fat is the key to a great empanada.
Amanda Barnes (18:23):
It is. Yeah, it is. I have a recipe in my book actually, which is from a really great chef here in Mendoza. And yeah, some people might get a little bit worried about the quantity of lard but…
Natalie MacLean (18:34):
[laughter]
Amanda Barnes (18:35):
It’s good [laughter]. It’s all collagen, it’s fine. But lard is the typical. You can switch that out for olive oil, which is fine. It doesn’t have the same kind of lovely flakiness or taste, but olive oil is a suitable alternative for a healthier lifestyle.
Natalie MacLean (18:52):
So Argentina also produces more Fernet, a bitter aromatic spirit, more so than Italy where it was first created. What’s in this drink and why is Argentina so enthusiastic about it?
Amanda Barnes (19:05):
Yeah, Fernet is definitely one of the most consumed drinks here in Argentina. So it’s a bitter. It’s a typical Italian bitter. Kind of aperitif. It’s about 40%. And it came from the Italian immigrants when they all came here. They brought their traditions of these bitters as well.
Natalie MacLean (19:21):
40% alcohol. Whiskey…
Amanda Barnes (19:24):
Yeah. Exactly. So in Italy they would drink it as an aperitif or a digestif. So before or after a meal by itself. In Argentina, it’s a slightly different way that they consume it. They consume it with Coca-Cola, so Frenet Con Cola. So it’s always blended with Coca-Cola. And the funniest thing is when you go to a barbecue in the mountains and they will just cut through the Coca-Cola bottle, take off the kind of top and have the entire litre of Coke filled with ice and Fernet.
Natalie MacLean (19:53):
Oh my gosh.
Amanda Barnes (19:55):
When I first got here I was like, okay, well if this is what everyone’s drinking, sure I’ll give it a go. But actually you do realize if you drink a lot of Fernet in one night, you realize that it is a digestif. You do not want to be drinking it by the litre or at least the sensitive English stomach does not enjoy drinking it by the litre. So I don’t actually drink Fernet anymore because I find it intense and I don’t like Coca-Cola either.
Natalie MacLean (20:18):
No. What makes it a digestive?
Amanda Barnes (20:20):
It’s the bar drink…
Natalie MacLean (20:21):
What is it about bitters that make them…
Amanda Barnes (20:24):
Yeah, all the bitters. I mean they were used as medicine before, weren’t they? Again, I’m not sure exactly why the bitters or Arrowroot and things like that, why they kind of have that digestive property, but they do.
Natalie MacLean (20:37):
Yeah, but they do settle… The process
Amanda Barnes (20:39):
Yeah, Fernet a big deal here.
Amanda Barnes (20:41):
I think they drink more than Italy.
Natalie MacLean (20:42):
Right. Okay.
Amanda Barnes (20:43):
I think they drink far more. But the other thing that’s coming back in fashion here, which has always been kind of popular is vermouth. And again, from that kind of Italian and Spanish ancestry, the immigrant ancestry, that we have here. And that’s been really nice. During the pandemic, a lot of wine makers, they were stuck inside. They weren’t traveling. They weren’t doing all the extra things that they normally do on top of their job making wine. And so a lot of them kind of turned their hand to making interesting vermouths and gins and different things from a base of wine. And so we’ve got this lovely craft gin and also craft vermouth movement happening here at the hand of many winemakers.
Sebastián Zuccardi is probably the one with the most famous brand today. And a lot of them have been going out to the mountains and collecting the botanicals from the Andes so that they really are reflecting the terroir in that sense. Not only a base of local wine, but with the botanical base collected and foraged with native species here. So that’s really nice, too. I haven’t seen many artisanal Fernets yet. I’d say Fernet is more the kind of cola of Argentina, and then vermouth is more the fine wine spectrum.
Natalie MacLean (21:56):
I don’t think something could be artisanal when you’re opening up a litre of Coke. It just sounds really [laughter].
Amanda Barnes (22:01):
[laughter] Really, I think anything that you chuck Coke in has already lost it for me. I’m an anti Coca-Cola girl. I do drink tonic though so I shouldn’t. Pot calling the kettle black [laughter].
Natalie MacLean (22:14):
So how does the production – just going back to some care comparisons between Argentina and Chile – how do they differ in production volume?
Amanda Barnes (22:22):
Well, that can depend on the year. They’re actually quite similar in terms of hectares and production. There are some years in which Chile is bigger, and there are some years in which Argentina is bigger. Normally, Argentina is just slightly ahead of Chile, but it really has fluctuated and does fluctuate depending on the vintage and also depending on the market. But there’s quite a significant difference in culture in that Argentina still about half the production is consumed within Argentina, whereas the large majority of Chile’s production is exported. That’s also because of population difference. Chile is a much smaller, has a much smaller population, but Argentina has a strong culture. They never lost that culture of drinking a lot of wine. And it’s only in recent years that they’re losing that culture. Like most other countries around the world, unfortunately, where we’re not drinking at lunchtime. We’re more moderating our consumption.And that’s definitely happening in Argentina, too.
But Chile switched due to some political pressure actually, and the culture switched more from wine to less, not drinking during the day, no siesta culture. Here in Mendota, there is still a Siesta culture so people still take a break during the day, which makes drinking wine at lunch acceptable and easy to do because you are having a nap. You’re not working.
Natalie MacLean
It’s true.
Amanda Barnes
Whereas in Chile, that hasn’t been the culture for decades. So the wine drinking culture is a lot less, not as strong in Chile, and there’s a lot more consumption of spirits as well. Pisco obviously. So those are the kind of big differences I’d say in terms of production and where it goes.
Natalie MacLean (23:55):
If Chile’s such a great exporter, a larger exporter than Argentina as a percentage, why didn’t they establish Carménère as a better calling card, if you will, internationally as compared to what Argentina did with Malbec?
Amanda Barnes (24:09):
Well, they only discovered that they had Carménère in 1994, which is relatively new. So they’d already began establishing their… and you think 1994, 24th of November, 1994. The story of Carménère is coincidentally came to visit a winery called Carmen and was in the vineyard walking around with a group that was visiting Chile for a conference. And the wine maker at the time, Alvaro, who’s an excellent winemaker, he was like can you come and look at my Merlot? There’s something different. We call this – they didn’t call it Merlot like the other Merlot – they called it Merlot Chileno. They thought it was maybe a different clone or something had happened to their Merlot because it would taste slightly different, similar kind of ripening cycle, but would taste different and the leaves would go quite bright, flaming red, whereas Merlot wouldn’t do that to the same extent. And the grapes tasted slightly different. So everyone knew there was a difference between this Merlot, like Bordeaux Merlot, and this Merlot Chileno.
And this was there in the vineyard and it was in springtime. And he could see the staminates of the grapevine had this different curly perspective. They kind of curl around in a very different way to Merlot. And he was like, I think this is Carménère. And everyone was like you’re absolutely nuts. Of course it’s not this extinct variety from the 1800s in Bordeaux that no one has anymore. It has to be something else. But sure enough, they did the test and it is Carménère.
Now some wineries were brave enough in 1994 – those in the area, in the vicinity in Maipo – just start bottling as Carménère. They actually called it Grand Vidure, which is a synonym. Some wineries started bottling in ’95, ’96 with Carménère as their grape variety. But it took several years to actually convince most people in the industry that it wasn’t their commercially acceptable Merlot that everyone knows in the world that’s easy to sell. That it was Carménère, it was this totally new variety.
You imagine going from having a production of something that you can sell easily in the market internationally, to suddenly finding out that your vineyard is this rare, weird, crazy variety that no one knows how to make it because it hasn’t been made for hundreds of years. And so it’s been a real process. It’s a real challenge that Chile’s been faced with. And I think it’s been very brave actually that most of the producers – many of them got rid of it and regrafted with Merlot – but plenty of them kept their Carménère and kept working with it. Plenty have actually Carménère as a new variety. And it’s been a process. It takes time to figure out how to vinify a certain wine and how long they’d spent so long treating it as Merlot with the same irrigation, the same viticulture management, picking at the time for Merlot, looking for those Merlot qualities.
And so actually figuring out. Let’s look at this. Let’s treat this totally separately to Merlot now and let’s figure out the identity of Carménère. It’s taken time and I think they’re doing a really good job. I think in recent years we’re really starting to see some beautiful Carménère coming through, and I think it’s much more similar in profile to Cabernet Franc than it is Merlot. So if I were to describe Carménère to someone who’s never tried it before, I would say think of Cabernet Franc and then there is some slight differences. It can be a little bit more kind of pink pepper in Carménère typically, rather than what you find in Cabernet Franc. It’s got softer tannins and it’s got that slightly softer acidity as well. But I think it’s definitely more similar in profile to Cabernet Franc.
But I don’t think it’ll ever be the flagship. I don’t think it’ll ever be number one in Chile. I think Cabernet Sauvignon is going to remain king in Chile, and I think Chile does an excellent job with Cabernet Sauvignon. So it’ll always be a niche variety, I think. But you’ve got to give Chileans credit. It was a big risk to take, and it’s not easy for them to sell Carménère even today. No one can say it, it’s hard to spell..
Natalie MacLean
True…
Amanda Barnes
And you don’t have Carménère in many places in the world.
Natalie MacLean (28:18):
It’s like Viognier and Gewürztraminer.
Amanda Barnes
[laughter]
Natalie MacLean
All those grapes, they should form a club. They need a little help [laughter]. Let’s chat briefly about the other countries mentioned in your book, starting with Uruguay. Maybe just a real top line because I can’t believe how fast the time is flying here. But what’s their signature grape, their famous region, a fun fact, if you will. What would you say about Uruguay?
Amanda Barnes (28:42):
So Uruguay, the signature grape is Tannat. And again, a tough wine that it’s only really produced in the Madiran, and I know there’s some lots of plantings happening in Texas and different places as well. But Uruguay, Tannat really became the champion because Uruguay has a totally different climate to Chile and Argentina. You’ve got to think more of Uruguay as somewhere between Galicia and Bordeaux. It’s Atlantic, Maritime, it’s a coastal climate. There’s quite high humidity. You never irrigate in Uruguay, whereas here you rely on irrigation. And so you get totally different profile of the wines. And actually Tannat quite likes a bit of that humidity and gives you a very consistent wine with lots of personality, lots of tannins, lots of acids, plenty of fruit character each year.
But then I’d also say the emerging star of Uruguay is their white wines as well, because you have that lovely coastal climate, and in particular Albarino. I think the Albarino from Uruguay can be on par with Galicia quite easily. Just beautiful, lovely kind of saline maritime character, but great acidity, nice ripe fruit as well. And then the two main regions to keep your eye on is Canelones, which is the main traditional wine region around the area of Montevideo with three quarters of the producers base there. And then Maldonado, further towards the coast of Brazil. A real kind of emergence of new producers, and namely the big producer there is Garzón. They’re doing an excellent job with promoting the wines of Uruguay abroad. But Uruguay is fascinating. I love it.
Natalie MacLean (30:17):
Well, we’ll have to read your book to find out more. Is Tannat named for the tannin in it? Is that the association?
Amanda Barnes (30:23):
Yes, that’s the association. It was interestingly in Uruguay it was called Harriague for a very long time because that was the chap that brought it over with him. A Basque immigrant that brought it over with him in the 1800s as well.
Natalie MacLean (30:34):
That’s much harder to spell and say. So I think it was a good move to Tannat [laughter]
Amanda Barnes (30:39):
[laughter] They changed it to that.
Natalie MacLean (30:40):
Absolutely. How about Peru? How would you summarize Peru?
Amanda Barnes (30:44):
Peru’s fascinating because it was the first kind of wine country really of South America. And that’s because the vice royalty was sat there. That’s where they were kind of taking over the empire. And so they largely developed this wine industry to support the Spanish who were there. Unfortunately, Peru’s history was interrupted because the Spanish got jealous of all the wine production that they were making and the exports that they were doing. So they prohibited the production of wine and everyone had to move to Pisco with all their grapevines.
So we’re only seeing the kind of recent renaissance of Peruvian wine over Pisco production. And there’s lots of international varieties like Tannats. There are Malbec, et cetera. But I’m most excited about those old Criolla varieties, the Pisco varieties and some of the more artisanal wines that people are making from that, which typically are white varieties and usually more made at a kind of skin contact. Nice Orange wine style and some lovely juicy, easier to drink with that typical salinity that you get in Peru because most of the wine regions are very close to the coast. Sandier soils. So that kind of fruitiness coming through, very appetizing, easy to drink, simple unpretentious wines that go really well with the intense Peruvian cuisine because aside from the kind of ceviche, which everyone knows. Most Peruvian cuisine is actually heavily spiced meat dishes. So having that kind of more fragrant Criollo style wine works really nicely.
Natalie MacLean (32:14):
And Pisco, that’s a spirit, when they had to switch to that.
Amanda Barnes (32:19):
So Pisco is a brandy made from the same wine grapes. So you distill the wine grapes, you distill your wine actually. You make wine and then you distill it into Pisco. And you’ve got Pisco made in Peru, you’ve got Pisco made in Chile, and then in Bolivia they also make their own version of Pisco, but they call it Singani.
Natalie MacLean (32:39):
Okay, Bolivia then. Good segue. What’s going on in Bolivia wine wise?
Amanda Barnes (32:44):
Aside from the Singani, which I do recommend, Bolivia is very interesting. Largely historically it develops because of the Potosi mines there, which were an enormous source of wealth and also brought lots of Europeans to Bolivia to live there while they were kind of exploiting the mines or less so working in the mines. And so that’s why we had the wine industry really start in that period. And then again, it’s more of a recent renaissance. We are starting to see it kind come back as a wine producing regions rather than Singani or Pisco producing. And I think Cañete has the main area, so that’s similar to high altitude Argentina in the north, so very close to Salta. Only a few hours driving and also super high altitude. So quite intense reds, but with nice acidity, quite aromatic whites. But for me, what’s most interesting is the Muscatel Alexandria, which is their main grape variety, which is one of those original ones that came with the Spanish in the 1500s and gave birth to the whole family of Criollo varieties.
And they have beautiful wines from Moscatel dry wines, especially in the region. And these Moscatel vines are growing often around peppercorn trees. And so rather than using poles, which we use more commonly today to train vineyards, they would use trees as the Jesuits would plant trees to train the vineyards. And so they pick up this different flavour because the grapes are growing around peppercorn and other different tree flavours. And so they pick up these different flavours and Moscatel can be quite transparent in showing those lovely flavours. You imagine flowers of Moscatel and peach of Moscatel plus that pink peppercorn or interesting kind of herbaceous nose. It could be very complex. And they’re very simple wines. Again, very unpretentious but delicious.
Natalie MacLean (34:35):
That’s a fascinating combination. And then Brazil, what are they doing?
Amanda Barnes (34:40):
Oh, everything. I’ve just come back from two weeks traveling around Brazil and we did 3,600 kilometers in 10 days.
Natalie MacLean
Oh my goodness.
Amanda Barnes
It was a bit nuts, but it was so much happening in Brazil. It’s really difficult to generalize, but you have the main wine region in the south, Rio Grande do Sul. And that’s where the Italian immigrants again came in the 1800s and really made their mark. But then there was a big change. Everything went to hybrid in the 80s and we lost a lot of those old Italian varieties. And now since the 90s and the 2000s – the hybrids arrived much earlier than the 80s. The 50s and the 60s – and now there’s a switch to fine wines again. So I’d say the thing that Brazil is achieving quite across the board is their traditional method sparkling wines, which can be very nice. And then you also have a lot of Moscatel like Asti style touching on that Italian heritage.
And then in terms of white and reds, we’ve got a massive diversity. There’s over 300 different varieties and there’s no champion variety. Some people have kind of picked Merlot as the champion variety, but I don’t personally agree with that. I actually think there’s more potential in some of those interesting Italian varieties. Teroldego and Marselan is also doing quite well. You’ve got a humid climate and warm, so you really need to kind of hone in on what works best there. And then there’s some very interesting high altitude developments where they’ve flipped the harvest on its head and prune during the summer when it’s wet and warm and humid and let the vines come to fruition in the winter when it’s warm enough and it’s sunny and dry. And so you get these winter harvest wines and some interesting examples of Syrah and Sauvignon Blanc with that.
Natalie MacLean (36:20):
Oh wow. So much to discover.
Amanda Barnes (36:23):
But that’s a whole other hour long conversation. Each of these countries could be a different episode.
Natalie MacLean (36:26):
We should have had a mini series here, but I do want to get to the wines. You have a couple wines there to taste. I would love to hear about them and what they are.
Amanda Barnes (36:35):
So I picked two that I think kind of represents something interesting having in different countries. So this is Altos Las Hormigas who’s one of the key producers of Argentina leading that kind of quality. When I talked about those early pioneers, definitely those pioneers of Malbec, but I’m really enjoying their Blanco at the moment. I haven’t opened them because I’m going to drink them tonight. But I love their Blanco at the moment because this is a really interesting wine, which is a combination of three varieties Semillon, Pedro Giménez , and Chenin Blanc. And it’s kind of like looking back to the history of Argentine white wine because Semillon and Chenin Blanc used to be two of the most planted varieties here in Argentina. And I love Semillon, the old vine Semillon that you get from Argentina and Chile. And I really recommend trying some of those. But then it’s also got Pedro Giménez, which is actually our most planted white grape variety in Argentina. And it’s a native cru variety. It’s not related to the Spanish Pedro Jimenez. And I’m really interested in the kind of movement to try and bring that back.
There’s a couple producers, Marianna Onofri is another one who does a great job in trying to show the potential of Pedro Giménez. It’s a simple grape variety, but it adds a nice kind of simplicity. And sometimes you need some Pedro Giménez in your life to kind of balance out the bigger, more expressive grape varieties. And this is delicious. It’s a very austere style of white wine. It’s one of my favorites and go-tos. It’s about 11% ABV. It is 11% ABV. So that’s always nice when you want to have a few glasses in the evening and not think too much about headache in the morning. Then it’s just got great acidity and real fruit purity and just feels like a very mountain white wine, which I think is exciting in Argentina today. These mountain white wines are not chasing that same kind of new world big fruit that we get from New Zealand Sauvignon Blanc. Very much going for austerity, for purity, for minerality, and more about texture than about aroma, which I enjoy.
Natalie MacLean (38:35):
That’s awesome. Did you have a second wine there that you wanted to show?
Amanda Barnes (38:42):
I do, yes. This is one of my favourite projects in Chile, Viñedos de Alcohuaz. And this is an incredible vineyard right in the Elqui Valley. It’s the highest kind of altitude, commercial vineyard in Chile. 2200 meters above sea level and tucked into the mountains. Absolutely nuts to go visit. And I first went, this is a special vintage. I first went in 2014 and met one of my best friends today, who’s the winemaker at the time, Emily Faulkner. And she was working. The founder here is Marcello Retamal, who for me is hands down one of the best wine makers of Chile. And it’s this beautiful project that they’ve completely planted these new vines in a virgin territory and are really battling with altitude. It’s very intense and hot in the day. You’re surrounded by bare rocks. It’s incredible. I can upload some photos for you to see, but you’ve got this really cool night.
So you get these beautiful structured wines. So in this case, it’s a blend with Syrah, Garnacha and Petit Syrah. And it’s just a very meaty, intense wine with incredible Syrah character, but beautiful acidity and super age worthy. Wines that you should hold for several years. And Marcello Retamal always releases them with several years of aging, which I think is great. The coolest thing about the vineyard is that it’s all kind of built into the rocks. Sorry, the winery. It’s built into the rocks. It’s all kind of with the native rocks from the area and all of the vines are trodden by foot. So that was my first experience properly foot treading was there in Alcohuaz. And it’s a very kind of natural wine production, but just stellar wines as well.
Natalie MacLean (40:19):
Oh wow. We’ll link to those in the show notes. So yes, I cannot believe how time has flown. Do you have a most useful wine gadget that you’ve come across as we start to wrap up here?
Amanda Barnes (40:29):
I don’t. I mean for me, the most important thing – I could go get it – but one of those ice bags where you’ve got the plastic bag that you could pop your bottle in and you fill it with ice and it’s just a great kind of carrier that you can literally take your ice. Because I often take wines to restaurants to uncork there. And so I always go with my little plastic bag, which is filled with ice. And I’m so sorry, it’s over there. I can get it really quickly.
Natalie MacLean (40:50):
No, that’s okay.
Amanda Barnes (40:52):
That’s alright. But it’s that lovely ice bag that. Your personalized ice bag where you can keep it cool and then just pop it open when you get there.
Natalie MacLean (40:59):
I need to get one of those.
Amanda Barnes (41:00):
Simple, but it does the job
Natalie MacLean (41:01):
Absolutely.
Amanda Barnes (41:02):
And it keeps it cool while you’re traveling, so it’s perfect.
Natalie MacLean (41:06):
We’ll put a link to that also in the show notes. Now as we wrap up, Amanda, it’s been fabulous. Is there anything we haven’t covered that you’d like to mention?
Amanda Barnes (41:14):
No, just drink more South American wine. You’ve got such great value.
Natalie MacLean
Sure.
Amanda Barnes
Just drink more South American wine and let me know. I love to know what people are drinking and what they’re enjoying. And I just think there’s a world to discover here and it’s always such great value and start drinking it now before it’s too late, because at some point people are going to wake up and these wines are going to be quite expensive. Before it’s too late, drink it now.
Natalie MacLean (41:39):
You heard it here first. Where can people find your book and find you online, Amanda?
Amanda Barnes (41:45):
So in Canada you want to have a look at Academie de Vin and then the distributor. And then also all my ebooks and everything are available on my website, South America Wine Guide. And that’s where you can find me as well.
So SouthAmericaWineGuide.com. And that’s my alias on Instagram, too. I’m Amanda Barnes. You can find me in YouTube. Lots of different places as well, but I’m quite accessible on Instagram. I haven’t really got into X or Twitter as much as…
Natalie MacLean (42:12):
You’re not missing much.
Amanda Barnes (42:14):
No. Okay, good. Glad to hear.
Natalie MacLean (42:16):
And we’ll link to your website and your Instagram and so on and Academie de Vin in the show notes. So thank you so much for being with us here and for your time. And congratulations on the South American Wine Guide. It’s excellent.
Amanda Barnes (42:30):
Thank you. It’s been a pleasure to chat with you, Natalie. I look forward to seeing you in Canada one day soon.
Natalie MacLean (42:35):
Absolutely. That’d be great. Thank you.
(42:42):
Well, there you have it. I hope you enjoyed our chat with Amanda. Here are my takeaways. Number one, I enjoyed hearing Amanda’s recommendations for which types of global dishes you can pair with South American wines. The highly aromatic Torrontés can handle equally flavourful dishes. Number two, Amanda has inspired me to try more wines from Chile’s Equi Valley. It’s amazing that some vineyards are planted at 2200 meters above sea level. And three, I was interested to learn more about the types of wines they make in other South American countries such as Uruguay, Peru, Bolivia, and Brazil. I didn’t realize that Peru was the first wine region in South America. I would’ve assumed it was Chile or Argentina.
In the show notes, you’ll find the full transcript of my conversation with Amanda, links to her website and books, the video versions of these conversations on Facebook and YouTube live, and where you can order my book online no matter where you live. You can also find a link to take a free online food and wine pairing class with me called The Five Wine and Food Pairing Mistakes That Can Ruin Your Dinner and How to Fix Them forever at nataliemaclean.com/class slash. That’s all in the show notes at nataliemaclean.com/266. Email me if you have a sip, tip, question or if you’ve read my book or are in the process of reading it at [email protected]. I’d love to hear from you.
If you missed episode five, go back and take a listen. I chat about wine and health, the benefits, risks, and surprises with Dr. Edward Miller. I’ll share a short clip with you now to whet your appetite.
Dr. Edward Miller (44:34):
We’ve suspected a relationship between alcohol and breast cancer for quite a while, and then kind of the big study came out in the British Medical Journal that said even one alcohol beverage a day increases in woman’s risk of breast cancer. So there was understandably a lot of concern going on. There were concerns about that study though because this same group had previously reported that alcohol consumption adds years to people’s lives, reduces cardiovascular disease. The more legit and more interesting I think to your audience is that one. They didn’t break it down by type of alcohol in the study at all. And so they said, please go back and do that. And when they did, this same study showed that when people drank three or more spirit beverages a day, the women had a 26% increase in their risk of breast cancer. And when they had three wine or more a day, there was no increased risk of breast cancer.
Natalie MacLean (45:36):
If you liked this episode, please email or tell one friend about it this week, especially someone who’d be interested in the tips, wines, and stories we shared. It’s easy to find my podcast. Just tell them to search for Natalie MacLean Wine on their favorite podcast app. Thank you for taking the time to join me here. I hope something great is in your glass this week, perhaps a floral Torrontés. You don’t want to miss one juicy episode of this podcast, especially the secret full bodied bonus episodes that I don’t announce on social media. So subscribe for free now at nataliemaclean.com/subscribe. Meet me here next week. Cheers.
