Introduction
How can wine help you to broaden your understanding of different cultures? Which stark differences in culture and decorum will you see in various wine regions? What’s the right way, etiquette-wise, to receive your tasting sample at a wine festival or show?
In this episode of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, I’m chatting with Dr. Clinton Lee, Executive Director of the Asia Pacific Wine and Spirit Institute.
You can find the wines we discussed here.
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Highlights
- What will wine lovers find fascinating about Mendoza, Argentina?
- How did Dr. Lee communicate with Argentinian winemakers with no languages in common?
- What was it like to participate in a blindfolded wine tasting in China?
- What made Dr. Lee’s visit to Ducasse au Château de Versailles heartwarming?
- How was the art of decorum on perfect display at a Vinitaly tasting in Verona, Italy?
- What’s the right protocol to observe when receiving a pour at a tasting?
- When did Dr. Lee develop his interest in wine and culture?
- How did Dr. Lee become an expert in manners and culture?
- What influences can you see across cultures?
- How can you become more culturally aware?
Key Takeaways
- I wholeheartedly agree with him that wine helps you to broaden your understanding of different cultures. It reminds me of when I was a highland dancer as a child and traveled to different countries with my mother. We experienced the culture more deeply than would most tourists as we got to know families who lived there and often stayed with them.
- He makes several interesting points that there are stark differences in culture and decorum in various wine regions.
- I also agree with him that it’s good etiquette and sound practice to slide away to the side after you receive your wine sample at a festival or show to allow others to get theirs. It’s always tempting to stay and chat with those pouring the wine, and that’s fine if no one is behind you, but rarely is that the case.
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About Dr. Clinton Lee
Clinton Lee is the Executive Director at Asia Pacific Wine and Spirit Institute, a WSET Diploma Graduate & Wine Educator & Speaker. He is the author of Master the Art of Manners, which will be published later this year. He is an internationally recognized intercultural etiquette expert, wine and spirit educator and judge. Dr. Lee has been featured in the media around the world and is recognized as a social media influencer with over two million followers on several platforms. He is also the host of the Wine Buzz podcast.
Resources
- Connect with Dr. Clinton Lee
- Diary of a Book Launch: An Insider Peek from Idea to Publication
- I’d love to meet you in person! Join me for a fabulous book launch and wine tasting on Saturday, May 13th, in Niagara! Click here to register.
- My Books:
- Unreserved Wine Talk | Episode
- My new class The 5 Wine & Food Pairing Mistakes That Can Ruin Your Dinner And How To Fix Them Forever
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Thirsty for more?
- Sign up for my free online wine video class where I’ll walk you through The 5 Wine & Food Pairing Mistakes That Can Ruin Your Dinner (and how to fix them forever!)
- You’ll find my books here, including Unquenchable: A Tipsy Quest for the World’s Best Bargain Wines and Red, White and Drunk All Over: A Wine-Soaked Journey from Grape to Glass.
- The new audio edition of Red, White and Drunk All Over: A Wine-Soaked Journey from Grape to Glass is now available on Amazon.ca, Amazon.com and other country-specific Amazon sites; iTunes.ca, iTunes.com and other country-specific iTunes sites; Audible.ca and Audible.com.
Transcript
Dr. Clinton Lee (00:00):
If you are attending a wine tasting, it’s always good etiquette and sound practice to receive your pouring of wine, slide away seamlessly to the side, allow others to receive it. And you can make your assessment. And if you really want to ask questions, you can go back. But even then, it’s very, very difficult. There’s so many people. The activity. The noise. Just get the card and contact the wine company later.
Natalie MacLean (00:31):
Yes, I love that idea of get the contact card and follow up that way. It reminds me of bringing flowers to a guest for a dinner party, which is lovely, but I think it’s even better if you can arrange to have them delivered the day before and then they have the time to put them in a vase or whatever, as opposed to trying to greet all the guests at the same time and put your flowers in a vase.
Do you have a thirst to learn about wine? Do you love stories about wonderfully obsessive people, hauntingly beautiful places and amusingly awkward social situations? Well, that’s the blend here on the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast. I’m your host, Natalie MacLean, and each week I share with you unfiltered conversations with celebrities in the wine world, as well as confessions from my own tipsy journey as I write my third book on this subject. I’m so glad you’re here. Now pass me that bottle please and let’s get started.
Natalie MacLean (01:41):
Welcome to episode 228. How can wine help you broaden your understanding of different cultures? Which stark differences in culture and decorum will you see in various wine regions? And what’s the right way etiquette wise to receive your tasting sample at a wine festival or show? You’ll hear those tips and stories in my chat with Dr. Clinton Lee, author of Master the Art of Manners, and a wine Social Media influencer with over 2 million followers. Now, a quick update on my upcoming memoir Wine Witch on Fire: Rising from the Ashes of Divorce, Defamation, and Drinking too much.
Your first review just came in, my publicist said on our call last week, and my stomach dropped. This would be the first critical analysis of my book from a professional book critic. It’s from Forward Reviews, she added. They’re usually the first out, along with Publishers Weekly and Kirkus Reviews. These are the literary magazines that bookstore owners and librarians use to make purchasing decisions. I swallowed hard. Do you want me to send it to you? Yes, I gasped. Was it okay? Did they rip it apart? Don’t worry, she laughed, it’s a good one. Relief flooded through me, so I scanned it quickly, skipping over the synopsis of the story and focused on the critic’s assessment, “Intimate and revelatory. Evocative wine commentary runs throughout the book. Forthright, wry, and heady,Wine Witch on Fire is a memoir about wine life and hard won wisdom”. Yahoo! Oh my God, what a relief.
You can pre-order your copy of the book no matter where you live at WineWitchOnFire.com/stores. I’ll also put that link in the show notes. I’d be happy to mail you personally signed book plates for every copy of the book you buy and include you in the juicy bonuses.
Here’s a review from Jennifer Hill and early reader from Victoria. “I don’t think you need to know anything about divorce, depression, or drinking to appreciate Natalie’s story. Her memoir is personal, inspiring, and relatable on many levels. That being said, I connected to her story as a woman who has had personal and professional challenges, and also as a person who has been misunderstood. I really think this will speak to anyone who has just felt like they want their message to be heard. This is a really meaningful memoir and well written too. I would definitely recommend it. Five stars”. Thank you, Jennifer. In the show notes at NatalieMaclean.com/228, I’ve posted a link to where you can pre-order the book online. This is also where you’ll find all of the juicy bonuses you’ll get when you pre-order the book. Okay, on with the show.
(04:53):
Dr. Clinton Lee is the executive director of the Asian Pacific Wine and Spirit Institute, a WSET Diploma graduate and Wine Educator and speaker. He is the author of Master The Art of Manners, which will be published later this year, and we’re going to talk about that. He is also an internationally recognized intercultural etiquette expert, wine and spirit educator and judge. Dr. Lee has been featured in the media around the world and is recognized as a social media influencer with over 2 million followers on various platforms. Which is just incredible. He is also the host of the Wine Buzz podcast, and he joins us now from his home in Vancouver. Welcome, Dr. Lee. It’s so great to have you here with us.
Dr. Clinton Lee (05:38):
Well, thank you very much for that very gracious introduction, Natalie. It’s my pleasure to be on your show.
Natalie MacLean (05:46):
Ah, terrific. Well, I’m going to be watching my Ps and Qs because you are a manners etiquette expert, but let’s dive into some of your more memorable wine moments. Dr. Lee, let’s start with tell us about the time you were in Argentina consulting there with Argentinian winemakers. Did something get lost in translation on that trip?
Dr. Clinton Lee (06:06):
That was a unique trip. I have a friend who owns a winery there, and he was very interested in blending and producing his wine in a rather specific way so that the taste, mouth feel, body would be more suited to the Asian market because that was a particular market that he wanted to break into. So he invited me to go there and he said would you mind coming out and I will take care of you and you will meet all my very experienced winemakers and let’s get together. So I did, and it was one of my memorable trips, I have to tell you, because it was a very long trip. I think the only other trip that I’ve had of such length would’ve been trips to Singapore. So I traveled to Toronto, Toronto to Chile, Santiago, which is quite a lovely trip, but it’s, it’s quite lengthy. And then from there, across the Andes and into Mendoza.
Mendoza airport is quite unique because I’ve been to many, many airports. But with the Mendoza Airport, as soon as you walk out into the public area, there’s a vineyard right by the airport. It really blends in. You feel. Wow. I’m in wine country. Then, I had to go through the four hour, five hour ordeal of traveling by car immediately after this very long circuitous air travel to General Alvear which is probably in the southeast from Mendoza. After that trip, it was quite an ordeal, and the next day I was meeting with winemakers. Unfortunately, their English was not as good as my friend had thought that it would be, and we had to make do with signs and writing symbols and formula, which worked out well. I have to say it was challenging, but we are all at the very heart of it winemakers, and we wanted to produce a wine that we were all very proud of.
So we went through a systematic method. And I guess I would really like to let the viewers know that you can’t communicate in many different ways. And certainly with winemakers, my experience has been you pick up on their nuances, you pick up on the palettes, you find a way to communicate, and that’s what all the culture and the sharing of communication is about. So luckily, I do speak some Spanish. I’d studied Latin for about five years, six years. And as a young school boy, we would be speaking in Latin for 40 minutes. There was no English allowed to be spoken, just pure Latin. That helped me in good stead. And having studied French. From my late mother’s side, Portuguese, I was able to decipher and put things together so it wasn’t all as calmatous as it sounds.
Natalie MacLean (09:24):
That’s great. How were you able to communicate about more complex elements of the wine, like tannin and structure or whatever? How do you draw that as a diagram or make sign language to communicate some of those kinds of concepts?
Dr. Clinton Lee (09:37):
Well, as you use the appropriate word, you draw pictures. And when you’re trying the wine, you sort of indicate. If it’s highly tannic, you use your tongue and you indicate dry, and you use hand to sort of indicate for a smooth, as opposed to rough. Definitely, there’s many different ways, and eventually there’s always the dictionary because there was no internet availability.
Natalie MacLean
Oh, right.
Dr. Clinton Lee
Because it’s rather sporadic to that particular part of Argentina.
Natalie MacLean (10:08):
That’s true. You could have used Google Translate had it been available, but yeah. Wow, the challenges. Well, I remember going to Bordeaux back in the day before cars had navigation systems, and my French was weak, and I’m driving in it’s crazy rush hour traffic, and I’m trying to get out of Paris and off to Bordeaux. Anyway, that was an adventure I’ll never forget. I think I tasted some good wines, but I’m not sure. Anyway.
Dr. Clinton Lee (10:32):
I’m sure you’ve got many great stories, Natalie.
Natalie MacLean (10:35):
Sure, sure. I think we all do, especially when it comes to wine. Every bottle has a story, and storytelling I know is close to your heart.
Dr. Clinton Lee (10:43):
Sure.
Natalie MacLean (10:44):
So let’s go to another story shall we, Dr. Lee. How about the time when you were part of a blind wine tasting in China? What happened there?
Dr. Clinton Lee (10:52):
This was really at the really early part of the wine renaissance in China. Hong Kong had just allowed wines to be imported into the port of Hong Kong. As you know, Hong Kong is one of the major and strategic ports in the world, and they had just decided to remove all of the import duties of wine into Hong Kong. So now it was this huge open reservoir where importers were bringing in the copious amounts of wine. And China at this point had this voracious appetite for wanting to try and taste, understand, appreciate wine in all its magnificence. So I was invited several times, and one of the experiences that I had was let’s go to a blind tasting. All right, that’s wonderful. Now, here in the Western world, and certainly in Europe and many other places, blind tasting to us is where the wine is poured for you. And it might come in this form where that’s all you see. And from the particular glass, you have to try and look at the colour and make your estimation, and then from the nose and then on the palette. And that is the definition of blind tasting. But as I said, this was the very beginning of a culture that they never really went into blind tasting. So when I went into present, their blind tasting was they would have a napkin or they would literally blindfold themselves, and that’s what.
Natalie MacLean (12:41):
Put on blindfolds as opposed to just blinding the identity of the bottle.
Dr. Clinton Lee (12:44):
That’s right. They what they did. But my goodness, that’s taking it to a new level. Now, it’s just a different approach. But having said that, going back to China several times, it’s quite different now. And they’ve produced some exceptionally talented individuals, groups, and the entire wine culture there has changed. So you don’t find these sort of blind tastings defined as I have given through this example, but now more of an international level. And I’m very pleased to say that exceptionally high levels of expertise and skills are being displayed both in the tastings and in the production of wine.
Natalie MacLean (13:29):
Fascinating. Yeah. Well, I have to admit, I once thought that’s what blind tasting meant, too. Like blindfold and maybe some other paraphernalia that I let my imagination go. But I’ll keep it here.
Dr. Clinton Lee (13:41):
Totally right. I mean, for a non-English speaker, when you mention blind, they immediately say oh the opticals are removed. You know, you are literally blind.
Natalie MacLean (13:52):
Sure. Yes. Let’s take it back to France. You had an interesting dinner at Ore Ducasse at the Chateau de Versailles. What happened there?
Dr. Clinton Lee (14:03):
Well, you mentioned earlier on that I have a very strong following on social media, and I’m very grateful to all of my supporters out there, and it’s not uncommon for me to be recognized. Oftentimes when I’m out at a restaurant or perhaps I’m going through the wine store, people recognize me. So I was visiting the Palace of Versailles last year, and I came across the restaurant that you’ve mentioned, and I thought well yes, it’s impolite to pass a restaurant like this and not visit and have a meal, which I then proceeded to go up the elevator, make a reservation, and went back when my time was due. And I walked in and it was very interesting because the Ducasse name is very prominent in the culinary world. And how they set their plating, it’s a very French style. And the waitress, my server, and the manager, they recognized me and immediately they were very hospitable. And I’m sure they’re hospitable to all their guests, but they certainly made me feel rather special. And for me, it was very warm, very heartwarming to know that when we record like yourself, we record and we have an audience around the world that we are making that positive difference of nurturing culture and etiquette and manners, and it goes across all the continents. So for me, it just had that very, very special meaning. And I’d recommend for people who do visit Palace of Versailles, go to the restaurant.
Natalie MacLean (15:52):
Oh, yeah. Sounds marvelous. I mean, just even the name alone sounds fancy and splendid and a feast for the senses. You know one story brings out another. I remember being in a restaurant once, and I used to call my website and newsletter Nat Decants. As in Natalie decants. And so the surfer came up to me and she said, are you Nat Decants? I just thought that was funny as opposed to my name. But anyway, yeah it is. I guess, I don’t know if you ever feel this way, Dr. Lee, but as a creator sometimes and if you’re creating from your computer and you’re not in front of a live audience, it feels sometimes unusual when people do recognize you because, I don’t know, you’re kind of on your own creating this content, but there fortunately are real people out there connecting with you through it. But it always surprises me getting recognized. Well, I don’t know how you feel about it.
Dr. Clinton Lee (16:44):
Natalie, you have a very distinctive voice and look. And I think many people would be very happy to link with you, whether it’s an impromptu chance meeting. What I found was very unusual. I was booking my seat at the airport and this was the time when there was still restrictions. You had to wear a mask, which I was wearing. And the airline attendant said, are you the person, the gentleman who makes those wine videos? And I looked back and I said, how did you recognize me? I have a mask. And the gentleman said, well it’s your eyes and I recognize your voice.
Natalie MacLean (17:32):
Wow. Right.
Dr. Clinton Lee (17:35):
So I think our fans are, they take in all the details, which perhaps you and I as content creators, we take for granted. But they certainly do, and we’re very grateful for that.
Natalie MacLean (17:47):
Absolutely. I love the connection, the deeper connection you can have as well through books and the podcast. And certainly you’ve developed it on social media. The flip side is you always do need to be on your best behavior. Not that we wouldn’t, but you know when you people can recognize you. It’s like, okay, well better watch everything.
Dr. Clinton Lee (18:08):
Very true. That is very true. It is part of our normal demeanour when we are in public how we behave. But you’re absolutely right. You add that little extra ,just in case. Yes, very true. Wise words.
Natalie MacLean (18:23):
That public accountability. Yes. All right. So in addition to wine and spirits, we’ve already mentioned that you focus on manners. So tell us about the art of decorum at dinner in Verona, Italy, please.
Dr. Clinton Lee (18:36):
Yes. I was attending the VinItaly event. And as you know, you have all the best wine producers from Italy attending. And the Italians are well known, in fact, renowned for their dress code, their impeccable manners. And certainly when you are enveloped in a wine environment, they are very particular as to how you behave. It was a tasting actually as opposed to a dinner. And I was observing you would see this line of Italian sommeliers who would be wearing their badge of honour and wearing their black and white, easily recognized sommelier uniform, I would call it. And there was this whole row of them within this very old, princely, royal home. And you had all the guests there. And what I noticed that the one experience was how they would pour for you. And when you go to wine tasting events, you will get the guest coming in front of the pourer. And as soon as the wine is poured, you hope, you hope, but it doesn’t always happen, where the person who’s received the wine will then gently glide away to the side, allowing the other guests to receive their pouring of the wine. They don’t. They tend to just stand in front there and try and have a few words. In the meantime, this entire list and length and cue of guests who want to also receive some of the pouring is getting longer and longer. Yet in Italy, they are very, certainly at this particular tasting, they were very cautious. They were very aware of protocol, and the line was very smooth.
Natalie MacLean (20:34):
So they kept stepping aside. How gracious. Yes, I remember the old days pre-covid where wine shows, there’d be a big clump of people at each table when they had booths. And it was hard to get in there. You kind of had to kind of jump around in the back and say hello. Felt like a bar scene.
Dr. Clinton Lee (20:54):
Think for many of the viewers today, if you are attending a wine tasting because these days most tastings are divided into trade and into public. Whichever way, you might begin as a member of the public, but then into the trade, it’s always good etiquette and sound practice to receive your pouring of wine, slide away seamlessly to the side, allow others to receive it. And you can make your assessment. And if you really want to ask questions, you can go back. But even then, it’s very, very difficult. There’s so many people. The activity. The noise. Just get the card and contact the wine company or whoever it is that’s responsible, and connect with them later. Because you’re going to be shouting above the crowd and the excitement. And I’m sure you’ve had that, Natalie.
Natalie MacLean (21:48):
Yes. No, I love that idea of get the contact card and follow up that way. It reminds me of bringing flowers to a guest for a dinner party, which is lovely. But I think it’s even better if you can arrange to have them delivered the day before the day of, and then they have the time to put them in a vase or whatever, as opposed to trying to greet all the guests at the same time and put your flowers in a vase. And maybe that’s too fussy.
Dr. Clinton Lee (22:13):
Oh, not at all. Not at all, Natalie. I can see you are a lady of elegance, because that is precisely what one should be doing to in advance. Yeah.
Natalie MacLean
Perfect.
Dr. Clinton Lee
Of course. Of course.
Natalie MacLean (22:25):
Okay. Elegance and high maintenance.
Dr. Clinton Lee
Oh, I dunno.
Natalie MacLean (22:31):
Both. So which came first for you, Dr. Lee, your interest in manners and etiquette and decorum or wine?
Dr. Clinton Lee (22:37):
I would say they came across rather simultaneously in the sense that I had a rather stern education. I had a Jesuit education. So as you know, they are the champions of when it comes to bringing out the best in an individual, they’re uncompromising in what they expect. And there’s a very famous saying that the Jesuits have, give me a child at seven and I’ll return you back a man. So the education as well known, and it was during that time that the formative years of my education where manners was deeply, deeply, I wouldn’t say pounded, but certainly very fiercely ground. And you had to imbibe on this culture of being gracious, understanding, being courteous to others. And this has propelled and continued through the years. And when I traveled, I would then take in all the different cultures of the different countries that I visited.
And I truly consider myself blessed that I’ve traveled to over a hundred countries, both for work and for pleasure, and on all continents except Antarctica and Arctic. But all the other continents I’ve been to and visited individuals, groups from different spheres of life, from royalty to nobility to the average person in society. And every single individual has something to offer. So this is all being accumulated as a single strand within my own personal life’s tapestry, as it were. And wine, of course, became involved in that because you’re eating and you’re drinking and certainly when you’re in Europe. And then when I added on my studies, I have a proclivity to punish myself. And one of those is through education. I just love learning all the time. So I’d literally say for years and decades, I’ve written an exam of one sort or another. It’s gone from the jewelry business and undertaking the GIA exams and diamonds and all the way right through.
So like you, I have a financial background. So there’s this plethora of knowledge that I possess. And yet as you know if you’re in the finance world, there’s a certain manner in which you behave. If you’re in the jewelry business, there’s another. If you’re in the winery. So each one of these has that culture. So it’s always there with us really, and with the wine, enjoying it every day, taking all my wine courses and visiting the countries. So I would say that we’re very closely intertwined as opposed to being a singular on a graph. Oh, it’s culture now and then wine, and then culture, and then wine.
Natalie MacLean (25:47):
Right. That’s true. They always weave together. And especially if you had the Jesuit education, those being as you said, the leaders in education among the various Catholic orders, wine would’ve been part of that, too. Like the mass certainly. I mean, it’s just all through the Bible and the text. And so I’m sure you were introduced to wine very early if you were attending service as well.
Dr. Clinton Lee (26:12):
You know, we had to learn Our Father in Latin.
Natalie MacLean (26:19):
Ah, wow. That is great. I almost wish I had had more Latin studies. And I just think getting at the root of language is a way of understanding it and enriching, enriching it. But I guess it doesn’t have much commercial value, so it doesn’t seem to be part of the core curriculum anymore.
Dr. Clinton Lee (26:42):
Life is changing. Life is continuously changing. And both from an individual and from a community, country, I see life in very similar to a vineyard. You know, you have that period during the spring, spring burst and the budding and they’re coming out, and then you get the lovely aroma of all the new grapes as they come out. In fact, buds at that time. And then they mature during the summer, and then you see them ripen into adults, and then they’re ready to be plucked and picking. And then from there, and then there’s a time of rest. And again if you apply that to our own individual lives, the same with the society,
Natalie MacLean (27:31):
Absolutely rebirth. I mean, even not to get too religious, but Christ said I am the vine. And those who don’t follow me, they’ll be burnt like twigs, the way they’ve pune a vineyard and burned the dead cane of the vines. But yeah, it all intersects. It all weaves together. It’s amazing. And so when it comes to manners, did you do any particular training or was it through your extensive reading and travel that you came to be an expert on the subject?
Dr. Clinton Lee (28:01):
A combination. Upbringing, having been brought up in a society where there were many different cultures integrated, yet separate. Formal studies, my doctorate is in cultural diversity and organizational behaviour. So you had to learn about the different cultures. And in order to learn about a culture, you have to understand the way they think, the way they behave, how do they approach time. Mot wanting to make it too academic, but would they be perhaps mono-chronic? So Cronus, Kronos for time. So if you were to consider let’s say the Germans, Germans and Austrians. They prefer to do one task at a time, finish it and move on to the next one. And they’re very fastidious when it comes to time. They’re on time, you expect them to finish at a certain time, and they don’t disappoint. It’s the way.
Natalie MacLean (29:00):
That’s true.
Dr. Clinton Lee (29:01):
That they have been brought up. It’s their culture. Whereas you might find cultures that are mono chronic, and they would be perhaps more the Latin American countries. You would perhaps, let’s say the Spanish who are, or the Peruvians. Anyone that has that sort of Spanish influence, they multitask extremely well. And an example would be I have a meeting with Natalie. Now, my time with Natalie is let’s say 12 o’clock. But in the meantime, I have five different chores and I’m going about them and some of the chores I wanted to complete after my meeting with you, but it’s more opportune for me to finish it now. So they’ll quickly finish it. And then when I meet you an hour later, you perhaps are somewhat annoyed that I’ve wasted your time. But I’m saying, well Natalie you have the rest of me for the whole day. So it’s just a different way of thinking. And from that, that’s how you get etiquette developing, you know how people behave.
Natalie MacLean (30:05):
The approach to time. Yeah. I love that.
Dr. Clinton Lee (30:07):
So time is one, thinking is one. So the question was how did it all come? The experience of travel, the formative education, my formal studies, and of course reading experience as we all have a different sense and we absorb as we all do situations and scenarios that we in. I’ll give you an example. The most sought after office in a North American conglomerate is the corner office. Right? Why? Because that office represents the pinnacle of power. Because you make a decision. You are in the corner office. You are seen to be the beacon of success. Yet in certain cultures, in the far East, decisions are never made on a singular basis. They’re made as a group consensus. So they will consider what is the topic, what is the decision to be made, And you will never find a singular answer being given to you at meetings.They will never say, I wouldn’t say never, but they would tend to avoid saying no to you. They’d say perhaps, could be, let’s come back to this. And then they will then regroup and approach once more.
So you’ve got a difference in decisions are made, the manner in which it is made, the approach to time. So when you put all of these together, you understand an individual’s culture. And now with immigration reaching the heights that it has, and I mentioned this in my book, so you’ve got immigration, you’ve got industrialization, you’ve got globalization. So you’ve traveled extensively, Natalie, and I would say to the viewers out there, you can go to any major city in the world, you’ll find a Little Italy, a Little India, a Chinatown, a Japanese area, or Korean. Unheard of 60 years ago. But now you’re having all these pockets. Why? Because immigration has literally skyrocketed, whether it’s permanent or it’s just working. And you have these communities. So within these communities, they will influence perhaps not on a major scale, but certainly on a minor scale, then you just only have to look at the stores, what are they selling? Certainly before, if there’s no need for what they call certain ethnic background, if the minority is very small, you’re not going to find the products and the produce that they would buy on a daily basis.
So I would encourage, you know, asked me, where did it all come from? It’s not so much where it all came from, it’s what you do as we look forward all the time. How do you want to become more culturally aware? I’d say go to the supermarket, see what products they have, and if there’s something you’ve never tried, try it.
Natalie MacLean (33:06):
Yeah, true. Good advice. When it comes to wine, too. Widen your palette and your cultural experience through the bottle. I’ll never forget your stories do remind me. My first wine trip, but it was before I became a wine writer, and it was a tour of different countries, Austria, Germany, but also into Italy quite a bit, into Italy. Our bus driver was German, and he was on time every morning. And if we got stuck, especially at a winery in Italy where they would go on and on and keep serving more like pasta courses and wines, he’d be just fuming in the parking lot, kind of like looking at his clock. And I never saw the two cultural norms at loggerheads like I did. And he was just trying to do his job, but man, he did not understand their monochromatic or monochronistic approach to especially wine tastings, which went well over schedule. So it was a clash.
Dr. Clinton Lee (34:04):
And it still happens today.
Natalie MacLean (34:06):
Yeah. Oh yeah. Yes, it does. Absolutely.
Natalie MacLean (34:15):
Well, there you have it. I hope you enjoyed my chat with Dr. Lee. Here are my takeaways. Number one, I wholeheartedly agree with him that wine helps you broaden your understanding of different cultures. It reminds me of when I was a Highland dancer as a child and traveled to different countries with my mother. We experienced the culture more deeply than would most tourists as we got to know families who lived there and often stayed with them.
Number two, he makes several interesting points that there are stark differences in culture and decorum in various wine regions. I think it’s good to know what’s up and what’s not before you travel.
And number three, I also agree with him that it’s good etiquette and sound practice to slide away to the side after you receive your wine sample at a festival or show to allow others to get theirs. It’s always tempting to stay in chat with those pouring the wine, and that’s fine if no one is behind you, but rarely is that the case.
In the show notes, you’ll find the full transcript of my conversation with Dr. Lee, links to his website and the video versions of these conversations on Facebook and YouTube live, and where you can pre-order my memoir online now no matter where you live. That’s all in the show notes at NatalieMacLean.com/228.
If you have a sip tip or question, email me at [email protected]. If you missed episode 49, go back and take a listen. I chat about wine and travel stories with writer Stephanie Piche. I’ll share a short clip with you now to whet your appetite.
Stephanie Piche (35:57):
The classic Chorizo. I used to do one, which is really fascinating. It’s really easy, and I don’t even have to write a recipe for anyone for this. Take a fresh chorizo sausage, just roast it enough so that you can slice it in pieces and then top it with red wine and you’re poaching it, so you’re actually cooking the chorizo in red wine. So all of the garlic and paprika inside the sausage comes out into the wine, kind of makes its own sauce, and the chorizo takes on a whole different flavor because it’s been poached in the red wine. And then just pairing that with a classic Rioja maybe a crianza or something. The chorizo I think is going to overpower a little bit if you have something that’s too big and bold. Its kind of like Spain on a little plate, that little bit of meat and that little bit of fat, and the little bit of red wine sauce, and then the classic Rioja. That’s pretty much what everyone would have at six o’clock in a Wednesday afternoon in Spain.
Natalie MacLean (36:50):
If you like this episode, please email, or tell one friend about it this week, especially someone who’d be interested in the wines tips and stories we shared you won’t want to miss next week when we continue our chat with Dr. Clinton Lee. Thank you for taking the time to join me here. I hope something great is in your glass this week, perhaps a springy Riesling.
You don’t want to miss one juicy episode of this podcast, especially the secret full bodied bonus episodes that I don’t announce on social media. So subscribe for free now at NatalieMacLean.com/subscribe. Meet me here next week. Cheers.
