Why is the Languedoc a Hotbed of Experimentation? Rosemary George Reveals What This Means for the Wines You Drink

Natalie MacLean
Feb19th

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Introduction

Why is the Languedoc a hotbed of experimentation, and what does that mean for the wines you drink? What role have white and rosé wines played in the transformation of the Languedoc wine scene? What prompted the shift from mass-produced table wines to higher-quality appellation wines in Languedoc?

In this episode of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, I’m chatting with author Rosemary George.

You can find the wines we discussed here.

 

Giveaway

Two of you are going to win a copy of her terrific book, Wines of the Languedoc.

 

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To qualify, all you have to do is email me at [email protected] and let me know that you’ve posted a review of the podcast.

It takes less than 30 seconds: On your phone, scroll to the bottom here, where the reviews are, and click on “Tap to Rate.”

After that, scroll down a tiny bit more and click on “Write a Review.” That’s it!

I’ll choose two people randomly from those who contact me.

Good luck!

 

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Highlights

  • How did the Languedoc’s appellations come to be and why were they relatively late to the game?
  • Why is ​the Languedoc a hotbed of experimentation, and what does that mean for the wines you drink?
  • How did the monastic houses contribute to winemaking in the Languedoc region?
  • What is the historical significance of the Canal du Midi?
  • Which Languedoc food and wine pairings should you try?
  • What role have white and Rosé wines played in the transformation of the Languedoc wine scene?
  • What prompted the shift from mass-produced table wines to higher-quality appellation wines in Languedoc?
  • How has the introduction of clay amphorae and concrete eggs influenced Languedoc winemaking?
  • What changes does Rosemary expect to see in the region over the next 5-10 years?
  • How can you make the most out of a visit to the Languedoc region?
  • Which Languedoc wine would Rosemary pair with her favourite childhood food, baked beans?
  • Why would Rosemary love to be able to share a bottle of wine with author Jane Austen?

 

Key Takeaways

  • Why is the Languedoc a hotbed of experimentation, and what does that mean for the wines you drink?
    • As Rosemary explains, the Languedoc has far fewer rules and higher yields than other appellations or regions in France. People who don’t want to conform to the rules can try different grape varieties. They also have the broad designation of Vin de France that allows for just about anything you want to do. It’s the reputation of your name that sells your wine. She believes that Vin de France in the Languedoc from a grove with a certain reputation is going to be interesting. You may not like it, but there will be a reason why it’s not conforming, for whatever reason. So that’s interesting.
  • What role have white and rosé wines played in the transformation of the Languedoc wine scene?
    • The Languedoc produces twice as much Rosé than Provence, Rosemary observes. It’s a large area, whereas Provence is quite small in comparison. Provence tends to produce very pale roses, and those specializing in rosé are quite special. White wines originally weren’t important in the Languedoc, and the early appellations were red. But regions like Saint-Chinian and Faugères now produce white white wines in designated areas that weren’t recognized until 2004. The Terrasses du Larzac is one of the cooler areas of the Languedoc with enormous potential for white wine, but they have yet to actually create the appellation for it, but it’s in the pipeline.
  • What prompted the shift from mass-produced table wines to higher-quality appellation wines in Languedoc?
    • Rosemary believes that it was probably the falling consumption of wine in France that prompted higher quality wines. When France used to drink a phenomenal amount of wine per capita, wine was produced by cooperatives aiming at bulk production. However, growers leaving the cooperatives want to do something more individual. They recognized they had some really good vineyard land. Some of the pioneers of quality included Gerard Bertrand, who started aging wine in barrels. That sort of snowballed. Newcomers are attracted to the area because land prices are not that expensive so you can buy vineyards. You can’t do that in Chablis.

 

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The Languedoc produces a lot more Rosé than Provence. - Rosemary George Rosemary George Click to tweet

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If you live in a little village up in the hills, that’s going to give you a certain resilience. - Rosemary George Rosemary George Click to tweet

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I always encourage people to drink the wines of the Languedoc. If you aren’t familiar, explore. - Rosemary George Rosemary George Click to tweet

 

About Rosemary George MW

Rosemary George has been in the wine industry for 52 years. She passed the prestigious Master of Wine exam in 1979, making her one of the first female MWs in the world. In 1981, she started writing about wine as a freelancer and has subsequently authored fourteen books, including those on New Zealand, Tuscany, Chablis, Faugeres, the Languedoc and Roussillon.

 

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Transcript

Natalie MacLean 00:00:00 Why is the Languedoc a hotbed of experimentation? And what does that mean for the wines you drink? What role have white and rosé wines played in the transformation of the Languedoc wine scene? And what prompted the shift from mass produced bulk table wines to higher quality, terroir driven wines in the Languedoc? In today’s episode, you’ll hear the stories and tips that answer those questions in Part Two of our chat with Rosemary George. You don’t need to have listened to Part One from last week first, but if you missed it, go back and take a listen after you finish this one. Rosemary is a Master of Wine and author of the book The Wines of the Languedoc.

Natalie MacLean 00:00:42 By the end of our conversation, you’ll also discover how the appellations came to be and why they were relatively late to the game. How the monastic houses contributed to winemaking in the region. The historical significance of the Canal du Midi. Which food and wine pairings from the area you should try. How the introduction of clay amphorae and concrete eggs have influenced Languedoc winemaking. What changes Rosemary expects to see in the region over the next 5 to 10 years. How you can make the most of your visit to the Languedoc. Which wine Rosemary would pair with her favourite childhood food, baked beans. I’m a fan too. And why Rosemary would love to share a bottle of wine with author Jane Austen. Oh yes. Please. As long as, who was it, the Colin Firth who played Mister. What was his name? Mr. Darcy. I should know that. Mr. Darcy. Oh, my goodness, him coming out of that dripping pond with his white shirt. Anyway. Welcome to episode 325.

Natalie MacLean 00:01:59 Do you have a thirst to learn about wine? Do you love stories about wonderfully obsessive people, hauntingly beautiful places, and amusingly awkward social situations? Well, that’s the blend here on the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast. I’m your host, Natalie MacLean, and each week I share with you unfiltered conversations with celebrities in the wine world, as well as confessions from my own tipsy journey as I write my third book on this subject. I’m so glad you’re here. Now pass me that bottle, please, and let’s get started.

Natalie MacLean 00:02:42 Do you have a bottle of wine that you’ve been holding on to for special occasion? Dorothy Gaiter and John Brecher, the former wine columnists for the Wall Street Journal, also Pulitzer Prize winning writers and husband and wife team, launched this annual celebration on February 27th. It is called Open that Bottle night. Hashtag OTBN. I interviewed them about their fun initiative on episode 116 of the podcast. But since February 27th is right around the corner, I thought I would just bring this up in case you might like to try it yourself. So they encouraged readers to open a special bottle in their cellar that they had been saving for a special occasion. So they flipped this thinking on its head, make it a special occasion by opening that bottle you’ve been clinging to. I know I have several. Too many great wines have languished in cellars past their prime drinking window because their owners waited too long to open them. That is a wine crime.

Natalie MacLean 00:03:40 So open that bottle night was created in the spirit of Carpe Diem, or Carpe that bottle because no one is promised tomorrow. Since 1999, the couple has helped brighten dreary February every year for wine lovers around the world with their invented wine holiday. What sparked the idea? They kept getting reader letters asking, I have this bottle of wine, when should I open it? I have to say, I get those all the time as well. Along with the question how much is it worth? I want to sell these wines. Anyway, the result is not only does it bring back great memories, but it also makes new ones as we share a bottle with friends and family. The wines don’t have to be old, rare or expensive though they can be. And they don’t need to come from a large cellar or a cellar at all. It could be a bottle you’ve been keeping in that closet for quote someday.

Natalie MacLean 00:04:35 So do you want to organize your own OTBN? On the last Saturday night in February, you and a friend or several friends can get together in person or online to open those bottles. Couples can crack open a bottle that brings back memories of a first date or apartment. Friends and families might open a bottle that evokes memories of a special trip together. I plan to participate with a lovely rosé that brings back memories of summer, because I need that very much right now. Meanwhile, I’m always opening and reviewing new wines on Instagram at Natalie MacLean Wine that’s at Natalie MacLean Wine. So come over and connect with me there. Back to today’s guest. Two of you will win copies of Rosemary’s beautiful book, The Wines of the Languedoc. All you have to do is email me and let me know that you’d like to win. I’ll choose two winners randomly from those who contact me at [email protected]. In other bookish news, if you’re reading the paperback or e-book or listening to the audiobook of my memoir Wine Witch On Fire: Rising from the Ashes of Divorce, Defamation, and Drinking Too Much, a national bestseller and one of Amazon’s best books of the year – Thank you, Amazon – I’d love to hear from you at [email protected]

Natalie MacLean 00:05:50 I’d be happy to send you beautifully designed, personally signed book plates for the copies you buy or give as gifts. I’ll put a link in the show notes to all retailers worldwide at nataliemaclean.com/325. The paperback usually arrives within a day or two of ordering. The e-book and audiobook are instantly available. Okay, on with the show.

Natalie MacLean 00:06:19 In your research, what surprising or little known historical facts about winemaking the Languedoc did you discover?

Rosemary George 00:06:25 I think the history is quite interesting from the point where you’re like what happened in 1907 when they were protesting about what they thought was fraud? But the main problem actually was overproduction. And that actually did made people start thinking about the early controls, which then paved the way to appellation contrôlée.

Natalie MacLean 00:06:43 The rules. The AOC.

Rosemary George 00:06:45 Yes. Which the first ones in the Languedoc in 1936. 1938.

Natalie MacLean 00:06:49 Okay. Much later than elsewhere.

Rosemary George 00:06:51 That was for fortified wines. You know, Muscat. Muscat de Frontignan. Muscat Minervois. Well, the first table wines didn’t happen until 1948, which were Fitou and Clairette du Languedoc.

Natalie MacLean 00:07:01 Oh, really? They didn’t have dry table wines till 1948?

Rosemary George 00:07:05 They stood alone until 1982, when Faugères and Saint-Chinian got their appellation. Côte du Languedoc came in 1985 with what they called terroir, which were some of the sort of particular islands of quality, like  La Clape. And there were Saint-Drezery and Saint-Christol, some of which were in Mont Peyroux, St-Saturnin and then some of those villages are now trying to establish their own appellations, all still in a state of flux. Somebody said Burgundy been doing it for 400 years. You know, we’re relatively new newcomers to the appellation game. And then, of course, you’ve got all the IGPs, the geographical indications, which the big one is Pays d’Oc, which of course, those are the ones that really allow for experimentation in the area.

Natalie MacLean 00:07:49 And does IGP cover all of Languedoc or beyond that?

Rosemary George 00:07:53 The big Languedoc one is Pays d’Oc, which covers everything. It goes into Roussillon and then you’ve got individual areas, some of which are administrative and some are sort of a geographical feature.

Natalie MacLean 00:08:05 So they have far fewer rules than the AOCs?

Rosemary George 00:08:09 Yes, they have fewer rules, and higher yields.

Natalie MacLean 00:08:11 Okay. And that’s a big contributor to why you say Languedoc is a hotbed of experimentation.

Rosemary George 00:08:16 I think so. Yes because the people who don’t want to conform to the rules so they can try different grape varieties. Then you’ve also got what’s called Vin de France. So if you really don’t want to conform to the rules, you just produce Vin de France. And then it’s the reputation of your name sells your wine. And I tend to think, if you come across Vin de France in the Languedoc from a grower with a certain reputation, it’s going to be interesting. You may not like it, but there will be a reason why it’s not conforming for whatever reason.

Natalie MacLean 00:08:41 It reminds me of like what Sassaccaia did in Italy and ignored all the rules until they finally gave them their own DOC because the wine was so great.

Rosemary George 00:08:49  Yes.

Natalie MacLean 00:08:50 And before we keep going with experimentation on the history bit, how did the monastic houses contribute to winemaking in the Languedoc?

Rosemary George 00:08:59 The monasteries needed wine, so the vineyards were planted around the monasteries. I don’t think they necessarily had a big part in anything experimental or new.

Natalie MacLean 00:09:10 They were so fundamental in Burgundy.

Rosemary George 00:09:12 Exactly, exactly. In Chablis, the monastery of Pontigny is actually key to its development.

Natalie MacLean 00:09:17 Right. Okay. And the history of Canal du Midi. What is that about?

Rosemary George 00:09:22 Well, that sort of grew with the communications. But if we’re before the Canal du Midi, if you shipped wine out of Sète and you wanted to go to Northern Europe, it’s got to go through the Straits of Gibraltar, I’d say. But once you’ve got the Canal du Midi was built, it linked up with the river systems that took you to Bordeaux.

Natalie MacLean 00:09:39 Okay, so it was a man-made canal that shipped the wines.

Rosemary George 00:09:43 It’s an extraordinary feat of engineering. Outside Béziers, there’s a flight of seven locks and another two that then attach another river to it. If you’re driving into Toulouse, you actually drive under it on the motorway. Look out for this, this large thing. That’s Canal du Midi. because it’s quite shallow, because it’s designed for barges. So it’s not so steep, but it’s…

Natalie MacLean 00:10:04 But still to have your barge going over your head as you’re driving under it. A  little unnerving [laughter].

Rosemary George 00:10:12 Water everywhere, I suppose [laugther]

Natalie MacLean 00:10:15 Yeah. And how do you think the Languedoc’s culinary traditions have influenced wine styles and wine pairings?

Rosemary George 00:10:23 I don’t really think of the Languedoc as being great on culinary traditions. It doesn’t have that sort of reputation, like Lyon or Burgundy. I mean, it’s very much, I think, fresh food. It’s obviously fish, seafood, seafood, oysters because you’ve got the in-water lagoons where oysters are cultivated. Obviously lots of olive oil features. I think it’s fresh vegetables, I think and seasonal stuff. So there are areas of melons, asparagus, that sort of thing.

Natalie MacLean 00:10:52 Do you have any favourite pairings?

Rosemary George 00:10:54 Well, I think, a good Languedoc moment is if you like oysters, there’s a there’s a little village of Beziers. So you can sit eating oysters, looking out at the oyster beds where your oysters probably came from yesterday. So that’s quite nice, but wash it down with some  Piquepol de Pinet which is like the vineyard around the Etang de Thau. So that’s a good moment.

Natalie MacLean 00:11:16 That sounds like a beautiful moment. Now you highlight the importance of white and rosé wines in the Languedoc transformation. So we always think of the Languedoc as big, full bodied reds. We don’t think of it for whites and rosés. What’s happening with those?

Rosemary George 00:11:30 Well, it produces a lot more rosé than Provence. It’s at least twice as much. It might be more.

Natalie MacLean 00:11:35 Is that just because it’s such a large region?

Rosemary George 00:11:37 Yes, it’s a large area. But its performance is actually quite small in comparison. I mean, it follows the Provence trend of very pale roses on the whole. And I think there’s some good ones. And the one of two estates that do actually specialize in the roses it is quite special.

Natalie MacLean 00:11:53 Sure. And what about the white wines of Languedoc?

Rosemary George 00:11:56 They originally weren’t important.The early appellations were red. Like Saint-Chinian, Faugère both now have a white aspect to their appellation, which wasn’t created or recognized until 2004. And you’ve got the Terrace du Lazac which is one of the cooler areas of the Languedoc. You know, that’s really, they say, the enormous potential for white wine, which they are recognizing, but they have yet to actually create the appelleatin for it. But, it’s in the pipeline. It will happen.

Natalie MacLean 00:12:22 Right. And yet, climate change, everything’s warming up. How do they keep those white wines fresh?

Rosemary George 00:12:28 With Roussillon, it’s actually used to be more of a conundrum because I think Roussillon is really quite hot. And yet they produce some wonderful white wines. I love minerality. They sort of focus, sort of good acidity with Chablis. And you can find wines like that in Roussillon. You think, how do they manage it? I think altitude could probably play a bit.  Cooling winds and good winemaking. The right grape varieties. I think again we talked about red Carignan. But there’s Carignan Blanc and Carignan Gris..

Natalie MacLean 00:12:59 Oh I didn’t know that. Okay.

Rosemary George 00:13:00 Yes. I mean Carignons Gris is hardly recognized by the authorities. I know a friend was trying to sort of. You’ve got to do your declaration, your yield declarations for your harvest. And she’s trying to sort of declare her Carignan Gris. And the woman said, don’t you mean Blanc? And Katie thought, this is probably not worth an argument. Sorry, I got a bit of a mistake [laughter]. Is another one that’s rather disappeared. Bourboulenc very good in La Clape. It will respond to the marine environment of La Clappe, which is sort of on the earth.  It’s almost surrounded by sea.

Natalie MacLean 00:13:31 Okay. And Carignan Gris. Is that supposed to be like Pinot Gris? Or is it a rosé?

Rosemary George 00:13:37 It’s slightly pink.

Natalie MacLean 00:13:38 Slightly pink, okay.

Rosemary George 00:13:38 Okay, so you’ve got Carignan Blanc and then Carignan Gris with a little bit of colour. I think the  can be green. It’s some of these old grape varieties that have been reassessed and looked at.

Natalie MacLean 00:13:48 And sure, everything does over time. And what prompted the shift from mass produced table wines, low cost, cheap mass to higher quality appellation wines?

Rosemary George 00:14:01 Probably the falling consumption of wine in France. France used to drink it a phenomenal amount per capita, and then probably winegrowers perhaps coming out of the co-operative. They want to do something more individual. The overall recognition that they actually had some really good vineyard land. You know how good the terroir was. I think that’s the kind of reassessment that they just producing sort of red plonk really wasn’t the way forward. Let’s see what we actually can do. You know, it’s sort of the pioneers of quality looking like. Go back to your Gerard Betrand, let’s try aging my wine in a barrel. And he wasn’t alone to do that. That sort of snowball. And then I suppose the newcomers are attracted to the area because land prices are not that expensive. And you can buy vineyards, which you can’t do, and say Chablis or Bordeaux. You can, but you’re buying a vineyard in Chablis is pretty tricky.

Natalie MacLean 00:14:55 And I think if people are drinking less but better, winemakers are going to follow suit. You talk about the interplay between tradition and innovation in the book. What’s the significance of amphorae, those clay jugs, and other ancient techniques?

Rosemary George 00:15:11 I think that’s one of the new things people are trying, because I think they’re aware of how wine is made in other parts of the world. And there’s more interest in Georgia now, which, of course, is where they used amphora traditionally.

Natalie MacLean 00:15:23 Right. The country, not the state.

Rosemary George 00:15:25 Yeah, it’s a country, not the state. Exactly.

Natalie MacLean 00:15:28 Right. And so was the amphorae. Were they part of the Languedoc tradition or this is just a new?

Rosemary George 00:15:34 This is a new thing. And like eggs are another one that people are looking at as sort of interesting. Concrete eggs.

Natalie MacLean 00:15:41 What do those things do? Like the clay amphora. And for I how does that change the style of the wine?

Rosemary George 00:15:47 It’s a neutral way of aging your wine. Some of them are buried. So that’s going to be good for sort of temperature control in the soil, in the cellar. It’s underground. It’s not going to get hot. Eggs I’m told that you don’t have to lees age because there is because of the shape of the egg. There is a very gentle movement of the wine.

Natalie MacLean 00:16:06 Oh, okay. So the lees are doing their own thing inside there. The lees, for those who may not know, are the spent yeast cells, dead yeast cells, and they add a creamy texture to the wine. And what about the emergence of well we talked about this with Gérard Bertrand. But what’s happening with organic and biodynamic winemaking in Languedoc. Is it a really big trend now across the board.

Rosemary George 00:16:30 I think it’s quite important.

Natalie MacLean 00:16:32 How do you envision the Languedoc wine scene evolving over the next, say, 5 to 10 years?

Rosemary George 00:16:38 That’s an interesting question. I think the vineyard areas will decline. There’s a certain element of overproduction. The problem, if you like, in the Languedoc is there are people who make lovely wine, but they have no idea how to market it. There are a lot of people sort of say to me, oh, the British market is so difficult. And then you look at, say, an importer, he wants to import, say Terrasses du Larzac  But, you know, there is a limit to the number of interesting producers from the territory you can have. So there are quite a lot of people doing similar things. And is there a market for all these people? And, I can think of people who are very good at marketing. Their wine is sound, but it may not be great, but they know how to market it. Whereas the small guy who’s making some really exciting wine, but he just doesn’t know how to market it, you know. So he’s got a rather stuck.

Natalie MacLean 00:17:25 Right.

Rosemary George 00:17:26 And then I suppose also somebody else said, if you like. There are two strands to the Languedoc. Of the individual wine producers, you’ve got the people who perhaps have come to it, and it’s a serious profession. They’ve got a lot of vineyards and they’ve got a lot of quantity of wine to sell. Then you’ve got the people who’ve come in, perhaps you know a second career, perhaps just a small niche vineyard. They don’t have so much wine to sell. I’m not going to say it’s a hobby, but it’s a completely different scale. And then the good cooperatives still have their role. In the village like Mont Peyroux where I’ve talked to them. He said there are 50 families in the village who I employ or who are giving grapes to me. They say the village economy, can depend on a good cooperative that knows how to sell its wine and run a good operation.

Natalie MacLean 00:18:13 And what do you think is the biggest threat to the success of Languedoc wines going forward?

Rosemary George 00:18:18 Well, I think what their competition is, they’re competing with all the other countries. I suppose the threat is competition possibly or climate change? Natural phenomena that.

Natalie MacLean 00:18:29 If they can’t keep up with that or water becomes a serious issue.

Rosemary George 00:18:33 If water. I mean, I think Roussillon  more than Languedoc is suffering seriously from lack of water.

Natalie MacLean 00:18:37 Sure, sure. Are you optimistic about the future of Languedoc wines?

Rosemary George 00:18:42 Yes I am. Yes, I would like to be optimistic. Yes, I think there’s lots going on there.

Natalie MacLean 00:18:47 I know it’s hard to generalize about everyone, but do you find it a region of resilience?

Rosemary George 00:18:53 I think so, yes. I think probably actually the climate and we talked about the garrigue, but it’s quite wild countryside.  I think that if you live in a little village up in the hills, that’s going to give you a certain resilience.

Natalie MacLean 00:19:05 Just battling against the crazy winds and the scrubby land and trying to make a living from it. Yeah. And if someone were to visit the Languedoc region for the first time, what advice would you give them?

Rosemary George 00:19:19 Oh, because I was wondering where to start on that one. It’s because it’s really what sort of wine do you want to taste? I think one of the vital advice, actually, if you want to go and see a wine grower, make an appointment. Don’t just turn up. Then you’ll get a much better welcome.

Natalie MacLean 00:19:32 So they don’t have open tasting rooms the way they do in North America?

Rosemary George 00:19:36 They do, but they might be doing other things. They might not be open and don’t turn up at lunchtime, which is  12 to 2 in France. I know one friend is rather short shrift by a good friend who’s normally very welcoming, but she did turn up at two minutes to 12 unannounced. That is not appreciated. But then I think you think what would you like to explore? Where if you mean you perhaps base yourself. Pessinas is a lovely small town. It’s quite central to visit visiting various other regions, other appellations.

Natalie MacLean 00:20:10 Are there particular estates you recommend to visit?

Rosemary George 00:20:13 Oh I could recommend lots of friends. I suppose it also depends on do you speak French or not.

Natalie MacLean 00:20:21 Is that critical or is there?

Rosemary George 00:20:23 Well, I think there are quite a lot of people who don’t, who probably their command of English is not possibly not great, or they’re much more comfortable speaking French than English. So you’ll get more information if you can speak French. But don’t be put off. There are people who speak English. I suppose my problem is because I tend to speak French. I’m not actually quite sure who is good, who speaks good English.

Natalie MacLean 00:20:45 And is the Languedoc warm year round? I mean, is it a nice winter vacation for those of us who live in northern climes, like in, I don’t know, January? February?

Rosemary George 00:20:55 Yes, I was there Christmas last year. Christmas Day was a brilliant blue sunny day and it was warm enough to have a picnic on the beach. I put my toes in the Mediterranean.

Natalie MacLean 00:21:04 Nice.

Rosemary George 00:21:05 But then a couple of days later it was rather grey. And then the day after that, it was sort of sunny again. So it’s a bit hit and miss is what I’ve said. Yes, it can be, but it’s a bit hit and miss. Things are probably quieter in the winter. It’s really sort of much more fuzzy in the summer. Then if you don’t like sort of summer crowds, I suppose probably spring and autumn maybe more reliable times to visit.

Natalie MacLean 00:21:26 And what are the key messages that you hope that people take away from your book?

Rosemary George 00:21:32 Oh, try the wines. I just want to encourage people to drink the wines of the Languedoc. If you if you aren’t familiar with them, please explore them. See what your local wine merchant has. Is there a lot of long wine available in Canada?

Natalie MacLean 00:21:46 There’s a fair amount. Gerard Bertrand. It’s very big here. But there’s the occasional there’s like a number of different producers here. It’s well represented, for sure.

Rosemary George 00:21:56 Oh that’s good. Yes. I would say explore.

Natalie MacLean 00:21:59 Absolutely. Have you discovered anything new that you would add to a new edition of the book?

Rosemary George 00:22:05 There are obviously new wine growers, but also people move on. So there are quite a few people in my book who are no longer making wine, which is extremely irritating often. So it’s out of date almost immediately after it is published. I think I’ve been looking at who’s sort of new, how things have changed. But I think now it’s evolving gently rather than dramatically.

Natalie MacLean 00:22:29 Right. Okay. Just a few quick questions to round up. Maybe tell us about a favourite childhood food and what you would pair it with today as an adult.

Rosemary George 00:22:38 Well, my first reaction to was that one was baked beans. Now can’t remember the last time I ate baked beans out of a tin.

Natalie MacLean 00:22:47 I like beans. What would you pair it with?

Rosemary George 00:22:48 I think you’d actually probably go with a lovely bottle of quite simple Languedoc wine. I mean, I would think…. which is her entry level wine. That would go well.

Natalie MacLean 00:22:52 Is that a red or a white?

Rosemary George 00:23:02 It is red, Yes, I’d have red wine. I think with baked beans, I suppose. Roast chicken. Then you’d have something a bit more serious.

Natalie MacLean 00:23:07 Comfort food, what would you pair with that?

Rosemary George 00:23:10 A good Languedoc.  I suppose when I look at a Longuedoc wine list, I tend to look and say who you know of my friends, whose wine am I going to drink this evening rather than specifically a Saint-Chinian or a Faugère.

Natalie MacLean 00:23:23 And if you could share a wine, a bottle of wine with anyone outside of the wine world, living or dead, who would that be?

Rosemary George 00:23:31 Well, it was quite nice to meet Jane Austen, because I do rather like her books. Pride and Prejudice at school of falling in love instantly with Mr. Darcy.

Natalie MacLean 00:23:40 Oh, yes, Mr. Darcy. I love Colin Firth.  What would you ask Jane Austen?

Rosemary George 00:23:49 What would I ask her?  I hadn’t really thought as far as that. Well, I suppose how do you go about writing your novel your novels. What are your inspirations? And then, of course, what wine would you like to drink?

Natalie MacLean 00:23:59 And what if she bounced that question back to you? Which wine would you suggest you open together?

Rosemary George 00:24:04 What would I choose. What we’re eating.

Natalie MacLean 00:24:06 Okay. Maybe we’re eating something from one of her books, I don’t know.

Rosemary George 00:24:10 Languedoc wine would go well with sort of something from, maybe a roast pheasant or something like that. Definitely pheasant, I think. When I’ve cooked pheasant, I’ve served Languedoc wines with pheasant.

Natalie MacLean 00:24:24 That sounds great. Rosemary, this is terrific. As we wrap up our conversation, is there anything you wanted to mention before we conclude here?

Rosemary George 00:24:33 I think we’ve covered the ground pretty well. Thank you, Natalie.

Natalie MacLean 00:24:35 Well thank you Rosemary. How can we best find you online and your books?

Rosemary George 00:24:41 My books are now published by the Académie du Vin. And online, I write a blog, which is Rosemary GeorgeMW.com

Natalie MacLean 00:24:51 Okay, great. Well, we’ll put those links in the show notes so that people can find you and your books. thank you so much for joining us. It’s been a pleasure chatting, and we’ll have to get together in person next time for a glass of wine.

Rosemary George 00:25:04 I hope so, that’d be fun. When you come to London.

Natalie MacLean 00:25:07 Yes.

Rosemary George 00:25:09 Thank you. It’s been fun.

Natalie MacLean 00:25:10 Thank you. Rosemary. Cheers. Well, there you have it. I hope you enjoyed our chat with Rosemary. Here are my takeaways. Number one, why is the Languedoc a hotbed of experimentation? And what does that mean for the wines you drink? As Rosemary explains, the Languedoc has far fewer rules and higher yields than any other appellations or regions in France. People who don’t want to conform to the rules can try different grape varieties and techniques. They also have the broad designation of Vin de France that allows for just about anything you want to do. So it’s the reputation of your name that sells the wine. She believes that Vin de France in Languedoc from a grower with a certain reputation is going to be interesting. You might not like it, but there will be a reason why it’s not conforming to any rules for whatever reason. So that could be very interesting.

Natalie MacLean 00:26:10 Number two. What role have white and rosé wines played in the transformation of the Languedoc wine scene? The Languedoc produces twice as much rosé as Provence, Rosemary observes. It’s a large area whereas Provence is actually quite small in comparison and tends to produce very pale rosés, which, by the way, is not a measure of how good they are. White wines originally weren’t important in the Languedoc, and the early appellations were all red, but regions like Saint Chinian and Faugères now produce white wines in designated areas that weren’t recognized until 2004. The Terrasse du Larzac is one of the cooler areas of the Languedoc with enormous potential for white wine, but they have yet to create an appellation for it. But that’s in the pipeline, she says.

Natalie MacLean 00:27:00 And number three, what prompted the shift from mass produced bulk table wines to higher quality, appellation, terroir driven wines in the In the Languedoc? Rosemary believes that it was probably the falling consumption of wine in France that prompted higher quality wines in this region. When France used to drink a phenomenal amount of wine per capita, wine was produced in bulk by co-operatives. But now growers are leaving these cooperatives and want to do something more individual. They recognize they had some really good vineyard land. Some of the pioneers of quality included Gérard Bertrand, who started aging wine in barrels. And then that sort of snowballed. Newcomers are also attracted to the area because land prices are not that expensive. So you can buy vineyards. You just can’t do that in Chablis, Bordeaux, etc..

Natalie MacLean 00:27:30 In the show notes, you’ll find a full transcript of my conversation with Rosemary, links to her website and books, the video versions of these conversations on Facebook and YouTube live, and where you can order my book online now no matter where you live. If you missed episode 41, go back and take a take a listen. I chat with Food Network TV star Kevin Brauch about his travels to various wine producing regions. I’ll share a short clip with you now to whet your appetite.

Kevin Brauch 00:28:19 There is a lack of bravery around wine for people that don’t know about wine. Just remembering the room, I was like, what does it taste like? And people are afraid to say cotton candy. But we know that that’s one of the culinary descriptors, or candy in and of itself. Earth, wet leaves. We know all of these things. People are afraid to say them for the first time. And yet, once you do, you’re so empowered. The wine tastes to you like the wine taste to you. I can read the label. I can read what Robert Parker thinks of this wine. I can read what Billy Munnelly, who I adore and love, thinks of this wine. But at the end of the day, I’m only left with me. It’s daunting. Nobody says that with beer. Like, guys don’t drink beer and go I get a little bit of a the hops from the seashore by Seattle and, the nose of dog hair.

Natalie MacLean 00:29:23 You won’t want to miss next week when we chat with Fiona Morrison, a Master of Wine and author who lives in Bordeaux with her husband, Jacques Thienpont of Le Pin fame. This is a cult wine goes for like more than $1,000 a bottle, but she still has lots to share with us, even if it’s not a bottle of wine. She’ll join us from her home in Pomerol. And yes, we will be giving away two copies of her beautiful new book, The Ten Great Wine Families of Europe, with some fascinating stories that we’ll discuss. So if you want to get the jump on winning a copy of this book, email me now at [email protected]. If you liked this episode or learned even one thing from it, please email or tell one friend about the podcast this week, especially someone you know who’d be interested in learning more about the wines from the Languedoc.

Natalie MacLean 00:30:16 It’s easy to find my podcast, just tell them to search for Natalie MacLean Wine on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, their favorite podcast app, or they can listen to the show on my website at nataliemacLean.com. Just email me if you have a sip, tip, question, or if you’d like to win one of two copies of Rosemary’s book, or if you’ve read my book or are listening to it, I’d also love to hear your thoughts about this episode.

Natalie MacLean 00:30:40 Were you surprised about the wines? Have you tried them? Do you have a favourite? Email me [email protected]. In the show notes, you’ll find a link to take a free online food and wine pairing class with me called the Five Food and Wine Pairing Mistakes That Can Ruin Your Dinner and How to Fix Them Forever at nataliemaclean.com/class. That’s all in the show notes at nataliemaclean.com/325. Thank you for taking the time to join me here. I hope something great is in your class this week, perhaps a crisp, fresh white wine from Bordeaux? No. the Languedoc. Cheers.

Natalie MacLean 00:31:30 You don’t want to miss one juicy episode of this podcast, especially the secret full bodied bonus episodes that I don’t announce on social media. So subscribe for free now at nataliemacean.com Meet me here next week. Cheers.

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