What are the Surprising Wines and Regions of Greece? Konstantinos Lazarakis Shares His Favourites

Natalie MacLean
Jan29th

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Introduction

What makes wine worth waiting for? How much wine is produced in Greece? What would surprise you about the wines of Greece?

In this episode of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, I’m chatting with Konstantinos Lazarakis, author of the new book The Wines of Greece.

You can find the wines we discussed here.

 

Giveaway

Two of you are going to win a copy of his terrific book, The Wines of Greece.

 

How to Win

To qualify, all you have to do is email me at [email protected] and let me know that you’ve posted a review of the podcast.

It takes less than 30 seconds: On your phone, scroll to the bottom here, where the reviews are, and click on “Tap to Rate.”

After that, scroll down a tiny bit more and click on “Write a Review.” That’s it!

I’ll choose two people randomly from those who contact me.

Good luck!

 

Join me on Instagram, Facebook and YouTube Live Video

Join the live-stream video of this conversation on Wednesday at 7 pm eastern on Instagram Live Video, Facebook Live Video or YouTube Live Video.

I’ll be jumping into the comments as we watch it together so that I can answer your questions in real-time.

I want to hear from you! What’s your opinion of what we’re discussing? What takeaways or tips do you love most from this chat? What questions do you have that we didn’t answer?

Want to know when we go live?

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Highlights

  • How did Konstantinos find his first passion for heavy metal music?
  • Do fine wine and heavy metal have anything in common?
  • What memorable moment happened to Konstantinos while delivering a presentation to wine buyers in Russia?
  • How did Dominus wine end up making an in-flight splash for Konstantinos?
  • What sparked Konstantinos’ initial passion for Greek wine?
  • Why did Konstantinos want to become a Master of Wine when no others were in Greece?
  • Where can you find Greece on the map and what are the key geographic features?
  • How much wine does Greece produce annually?
  • What unexpected insight did Konstantinos discover while writing his book on Greek wines?
  • What might surprise you about the dynamic nature of Greek wines and winemaking?
  • What does it mean for Greece to have a large number of endemic grape varieties?

 

Key Takeaways

  • What makes wine worth waiting for?
    • As Konstantinos observes, when you’re a fan of Barolo, or since we’re talking about wines of Greece in here, Xinomavro, then these wines are not immediately appealing but hugely rewarding once you pay attention to them and calibrate your idea about what wine can be. The same could be said about heavy metal music. It’s appalling for many people. However, it can be very technical, very artistic, very theatrical. So we’re living in a world where instant appeal is what most people want, whether they register that in their minds or not. But for Konstantinos, looking beyond the instant is rewarding. He has observed this in music, wine, books, in many things. I’d add in people as well when it comes to relationships.
  • How much wine is produced in Greece?
    • Konstantinos says that many people, even wine professionals, have widely different expectations of what Greek wine is. Some are surprised that Greece is producing any wine at all and others believe that Greek wine is a commodity produced in bulk. But the Bordeaux region of France produces twice the wine that the entire country of Greece produces.
  • What would surprise you about the wines of Greece?
    • Konstantinos explains that the great thing about Greek wine is that we have no idea what Greek wine is all about. New grape varieties and regions emerge regularly. For example, Malagousia is a grape variety produced by about 200 vineyards. It is extremely forthcoming yet very complex and intense. On the nose, it can range from Muscatine to minty to tropically. On the palate, it’s quite round, even creamy, without the need of extended lees contact or oak, but still, it has amazing freshness. One of the most important Greek grape varieties has been around for only 30, 40, years. That’s bound to happen again and again. In Italy, almost every area that can make wine does or is verified. They have all their grape varieties identified.

 

Start The Conversation: Click Below to Share These Wine Tips

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Looking beyond the instant is very rewarding. I have seen that in music, in wine, in books, in all sorts of things. - Konstantinos Lazarakis Konstantinos Lazarakis Click to tweet

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Bordeaux produces about two times the wine of all of Greece. - Konstantinos Lazarakis Konstantinos Lazarakis Click to tweet

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The great thing about Greek wine is that we have no idea what Greek wine is all about. We are having new grape varieties, new regions emerging by the vintage. - Konstantinos Lazarakis Konstantinos Lazarakis Click to tweet

 

About Konstantinos Lazarakis MW

Konstantinos Lazarakis MW is the first person in Greece to have passed the notoriously difficult Master of Wine exams. He is the author of Wines of Greece, published by Academie du Vin. As well, he serves as the President of Wines & Spirits Professional Center, General Manager of Aiolos Wines and CEO of Wine Wonders.

 

Bonus Interview – Matt Cauz

Highlights

  • Which wine should you pair with artichokes?
  • What inspired me to write Wine Witch on Fire?
  • How did the events of 2012 kick off my no good, terrible, very bad, vintage, personally and professionally?
  • Have there been any lasting effects from these traumatic events?
  • How has the Canadian wine industry evolved over the past 20 years?
  • What are my thoughts on the current state of the wine review industry?

 

About Matt Cauz

Matthew Cauz is a writer at CL, co-host of the Macko & Cauz Podcast, and host of the Matt Talks Wine & Stuff with Interesting People Podcast.

 

Resources

 

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Thirsty for more?

  • Sign up for my free online wine video class where I’ll walk you through The 5 Wine & Food Pairing Mistakes That Can Ruin Your Dinner (and how to fix them forever!)
  • You’ll find my books here, including Unquenchable: A Tipsy Quest for the World’s Best Bargain Wines and Red, White and Drunk All Over: A Wine-Soaked Journey from Grape to Glass.
  • The new audio edition of Red, White and Drunk All Over: A Wine-Soaked Journey from Grape to Glass is now available on Amazon.ca, Amazon.com and other country-specific Amazon sites; iTunes.ca, iTunes.com and other country-specific iTunes sites; Audible.ca and Audible.com.

 

Transcript

Natalie MacLean 00:00:00 What makes wine? Worth waiting for. How much wine is produced in Greece? And what would surprise you about the wines of Greece? In today’s episode, you’ll hear the stories and tips that answer those questions in our chat with Konstantinos Zakhar, author of the new book The Wines of Greece. By the end of our conversation, you’ll also discover the memorable situation that happened to Konstantinos while he was delivering a presentation to wine buyers in Russia. How the cult California wine Dominus ended up making an in-flight surprise for Konstantinos. What sparked his initial passion for Greek wine? Why he wanted to become a master of wine when there were no others in Greece. What are the key geographic features of Greece are and how they impact the wine you taste? What unexpected insights Konstantinos discovered while writing his book on Greek wines. What will surprise you about the dynamic nature of Greek wines and winemaking, and what it means for Greece to have a large number of indigenous grape varieties. Do you have a thirst to learn about wine? Do you love stories about wonderfully obsessive people, hauntingly beautiful places, and amusingly awkward social situations? Well, that’s the blend here on the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast.

Natalie MacLean 00:01:30 I’m your host, Natalie MacLean, and each week I share with you unfiltered conversations with celebrities in the wine world, as well as confessions from my own tipsy journey as I write my third book on this subject. I’m so glad you’re here. Now pass me that bottle, please, and let’s get started. Welcome to episode 322. I’m just back from my fabulous week in Las Vegas. I didn’t gamble one dime, much to the chagrin of those roving floor managers who soon learned to ignore me. But I did take a chance on many terrific restaurants and shows. Yeah, that’s not really a big risk. You know, the biggest concentration of Master Sommeliers in the United States is in Las Vegas. Well, it kind of competes with Disney, but it’s just that concentration of top notch restaurants. So I’ll be dedicating an upcoming episode to my favorite restaurants and shows and other places in Sin City for wine and food lovers planning a getaway trip there? Meanwhile, on the business news network BNN Bloomberg this week I discussed Dry January trends from the perspective of how the wine industry is reacting.

Natalie MacLean 00:02:47 I love digging into the business issues of wine. It kind of lights up my MBA brain. I used to work in high tech and marketing. So I love going into these issues. And so on the show, I noted that an increasing number of wineries in Canada and abroad are producing their own versions of low and no alcohol wines. Especially with wine consumption decreasing among Gen Z in particular. And they’re also introducing brands that have zero grams of sugar or are low in calories. Much of the innovation in this category is happening within these product line extensions. Other wineries are strengthening their messaging related to organic and biodynamic viticulture, as well as sustainable and regenerative farming, though there’s a lot of confusion over all those terms. More consumers than ever care about the environment as well as their own health. You can find my favorite low and no alcohol, wine, spirits, beer, cocktails and mixed drinks at Natalie MacLean. Com forward slash Lono. I’ll also include that link in the show notes. I’ll be posting reviews of these wines and their alcoholic cousins on Instagram at Natalie MacLean.

Natalie MacLean 00:04:00 Wine. That’s at Natalie MacLean wine. Connect with me there. I’d love to hear from you about your own favorite low and no alcohol drinks if you partake. Now speaking of delicious wines, two of you will win the remaining bottles of wine that I have from Bensinger Winery in Sonoma, California. We chatted with Chris Bensinger last week, and he had some amazing stories to share about how his family pioneered biodynamic winemaking in California. Congratulations also to two winners of Chris Rowland’s book Press for champagne A guide to Enjoying the World’s Greatest Sparkling Wine. They are Eddie Cote from Quebec and Sean Smith from Barcelona. I still have one copy of Chris’s terrific book to give away. Two of you will also win copies of Konstantinos new book, The Wines of Greece. All you have to do is email me and let me know you’d like to win. I’ll choose two wine winners and three book winners randomly from those who contact me at Natalie at Natalie MacLean. Com. So hey, your chances are pretty great. You’ll win something if you contact me.

Natalie MacLean 00:05:07 So lift that little finger and send me an email. All right. You know which finger I meant. In other bookish news, if you’re reading the paperback or e-book or listening to the audiobook of my memoir, wine, which on fire rising from the Ashes of Divorce, defamation and Drinking Too Much, a national bestseller and one of Amazon’s best books of the year. I’d love to hear from you and Natalie at Natalie MacLean. Com. I’d be happy to send you a beautifully designed, personally signed book, plates for the copies you buy and or give as gifts. I’ll put a link in the show notes to all retailers worldwide at Natalie MacLean. Com forward slash 322. The paperback usually arrives within a day or two of ordering, and the e-book and audiobook are instantly available through the magic of the internet. At the end of today’s episode, I’m also including a bonus interview I did with Matt, cause on his podcast, Matt talks wine and stuff about the issues. In the book, we go behind the scenes of the wine world to delve into what it’s really like to work in this dream industry.

Natalie MacLean 00:06:16 That’s not always Skittles and Chardonnay. And by the way, that is a very terrible match. Do not try it. This is gravy, not the main meal, so feel free to keep listening if you’re hungry for more or not. Okay, on with the show. All right. Just before I introduce our guest, let me say that two of you are going to win a copy of his terrific book, The Wines of Greece. All you have to do is email me at Nathalie at Natalie MacLean. Com and tell me that you’d like to win a copy, and I’ll choose two people randomly from those who contact me. Back to our guest, Konstantinos Lazar. You can correct me if I’ve got that mucked up.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:07:02 It’s lazarus’s, but I don’t really care. There we go.

Natalie MacLean 00:07:04 I should have brushed up on my Greek before we spoke. Konstantinos, he is the first person in Greece to have passed the notoriously difficult Master of Wine exams. He is also the author of The Wines of Greece, published by the Academy.

Natalie MacLean 00:07:21 As well, he serves as the president of Wines and Spirits, the professional center general manager of Aeolus Wines and CEO of Wine Wonders, and he joins us now from his home in Piraeus, Greece. Welcome, Konstantinos.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:07:37 Well thank you Natalie. A big thank you out of my heart for having me here.

Natalie MacLean 00:07:42 Oh.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:07:43 It’s very important for me. And I think your interest in Greek wines is something that might surprise some people, but really gives me huge delight, huge delight being with you tonight.

Natalie MacLean 00:07:55 I love Greek wines and I want to learn more about them, I must admit. I don’t know a lot, but I’m learning all the time, so I’m really looking forward to this conversation.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:08:05 You will be getting a lot of bang for your bucks.

Natalie MacLean 00:08:08 Excellent, excellent. I like to hear that. Good. We’re of the same mindset here. So before we dive into your wine career, tell us about your previous life as a musician.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:08:19 Yeah, I started fooling myself. I my what I call inner life started back in 97.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:08:25 I was 14 years old and I started listening to heavy metal. I remember the first time I think Scorpions Blackout was an LP that one of my teachers was listening. I was staying close to him, and I was walking past his window and I heard something that it was really intrusive, but at the same time I’m accelerating. Next day I said, what was that? Oh that’s scorpions. That’s not for you. You’re too young for that. Then after a year about my first guitar and I fell in love with music, I’m still pretty much in love with music. I’m not playing the guitar anymore. I was dreaming about being a heavy metal star, but that didn’t really go well.

Natalie MacLean 00:09:06 Well, at least you got to start somewhere with a passion for something, and that can easily translate to other things, as of course it did. Do you think that fine wine and heavy metal share anything in common?

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:09:18 Well, if you dig, I’m pretty sure you can have a lot of differences. And especially, you know, when you’re a fan of Barolo or since we’re talking about the wines of Greece in here, bro, then these forms of wine are not immediately appealing, but hugely rewarding.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:09:36 Once you pay a bit of attention and you have been sort of calibrating your idea about what wine can be. The same could be said about heavy metal. It’s appalling for most of the people out there. However, trust me on that. It can be very technical, very artistic, very theatrical and all that. So we’re living in the world where instant appeal is something that most people are looking for, whether they register that in their minds or not. But for me, looking beyond the instant is very rewarding. I have seen that in music, in wine, in books, in all sorts of things.

Natalie MacLean 00:10:16 Absolutely. And so we need to in North America and for me personally, need to get past the names of grapes and regions that may not be easy for us to pronounce, but the reward is I mean, the wines I’ve tried from Greece are phenomenal, so we just need to get a bit more comfortable with them because they’re great food wines too, all of which we’ll get into. So tell us about one of your memorable wine moments, maybe when you were delivering a presentation in Russia.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:10:43 Oh. All right. Okay. Okay. For. For many years, I have been doing a lot of work promoting Greek wines, meaning the wines of Greece. So I’m promoting Greek wines every single moment of my life. But for many years, I was traveling around the world, including the US and Canada, promoting Greek wines in specific sort of wine masterclasses organised by the wines of Greece and local partners, of course. So at some point it was Saint Petersburg. We have been inviting a lot of people that were mainly involved in importing houses, buyers, because the penetration of Greek wines on that market was pretty minimal. So asking sommeliers to join us was pretty much enough because you were not having the wines available. So initially we wanted the buyers to be there, hopefully being impressed by the quality and then buy some stuff and then at a later stage, we could do a bit of going around in restaurants and inviting Somalia’s, which means that a lot of buyers were straight competitors. Of course, they were not really in big competition trying to grab that wine.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:11:55 I was hoping I was pushing the notion that, you know, Greek wine is a nice to have. It wouldn’t be a must at that point. They were competitive, mainly about different champagnes that were important, different French wines and, you know, the big names. So there were quite a few competitors in the room. It was a very competitive spirit. And suddenly some people started talking from across the table. Then they stopped talking and they started shouting. And to cut a long story short, they started fighting. They like this fighting this, yes, physical thing. And I was like, oh.

Natalie MacLean 00:12:36 Wait a minute, I’ve never heard of it.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:12:37 Oh Yes. I was like, okay, now I’ve seen it all. I tried to be in the middle, but not too much in the middle because yes, that was above my pay grade. Some people tried to pull them apart, so they failed initially, but then they succeeded. I was shocked. I mean, I was speechless.

Natalie MacLean 00:12:57 Surely they weren’t arguing over the woodgrain in oak aging or what? Did you ever find out what they were arguing about?

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:13:03 No. Well, of course, everything happened in Russian and my Russian is non-existent, so I had no idea. I was a bit scared to ask the people that were allowed to remain because they were removed from the room. We were doing the masterclass. I mean, that was bizarre. That was a.

Natalie MacLean 00:13:22 Masterclass in wine fist fighting. Yeah.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:13:24 What can we say? Had a really bizarre theatre or bizarre movie like a monty Python scene or something like that. But, well, I have to say that after years and years of promoting Greek wine. Not just me, but the producers, all the people out there. Now, I could almost imagine that two people would be getting in a fist fight to capture the best, the most desirable Greek wines.

Natalie MacLean 00:13:52 Ha!

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:13:52 Yes. We’re not. No one’s anymore.

Natalie MacLean 00:13:55 I want that fighting spirit to come out in favor of Greek wines.

Natalie MacLean 00:13:59 Okay. So you tell us also about the time when you were leaving Napa Valley, the coveted winery of Dominus, which I think is owned by Chateau Petrus or Christian Moya, before heading to the airport. What happened there?

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:14:13 Okay. Those were the days. I mean, if anyone from the airport authorities of the world or the scanning machine produces listens to this, please do your best to save us from this ordeal. Because past times were far better. Okay. There is an Institute Masters of Wine symposium in Napa Valley. And then you mentioned that I am the managing director of Aeolus, which is an importing company, and we work with Christian Max. Max is a company. We work quite a lot. So we used to do Petros, but then in 2013 they moved to Christian’s brother in distribution. We work with laboratories, with Chattanooga, with Belgium, but also with Domino’s and now Ulisses in Napa Valley. At that time it was just Domino’s. So I arrived there and we had to move appointments of some sort, shortly beforehand.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:15:13 And it was me tasting at Domino’s and then my car getting into the San Francisco airport and via Paris to Athens. So it was very last minute. So Cristiano, very kindly and, opulently as possible, as usual. I was having seven barrel samples to taste from the current vintage, And then he prepared 7 or 8 vertical of dominoes. So it was like, seven bottles, 50 CL bottles with a plastic screw top and then several bottles of a vertical of dominoes. At the end of the tasting. I said, you know, I have to leave. Oh, you’re flying with Konstantinos, with Air France. And Christiane looks shocked, like, oh, poor you, poor you. Oh, yeah. Air France wine is really bad. And he wasn’t.

Natalie MacLean 00:16:05 Working. I would think it would be great, given how much wine is so important to their economy.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:16:12 You’re absolutely right. And he wasn’t aware that I was flying economy. If he was thinking that where he flies, wine is bad in France, then imagine the economy.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:16:22 And suddenly he takes all these small, small air bottles, 50 CL bottles, and hits them in the spittoon and then said, out of the vintages, which is your seven favorite? And he started decanting them, sort of like Domino’s 88 and Domino’s 83. In this board, bottles get a sticker and gets the vintage on the sticker. Grab the bag and say that’s yours. That will get you through Athens. That was 2004, where the liquid restrictions were not in place. That’s why I’m begging all the Port Authority officials or the producers to reconsider or do things faster. So I’m walking in luggage, check everything. I’m walking with my hand luggage in place with all the dominoes. It was like 3.5l of dominoes. I was flying economy, but at that time Air France. I’m not sure if they are around. They have one of these planes I was flying. They have a little bump on the top. So it’s two stories and I was flying at the top, right at the back, you know, No, really.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:17:30 Deep economy, really cheap economy ticket. At that time they had business class and first class, and at first class they had a sommelier. Wow.

Natalie MacLean 00:17:40 An onboard sommelier. Oh, wow.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:17:42 Onboard, Sumi. So we take off San Francisco, and I say, can I have a word with the sommelier? They go like, why? because I want to have a chat with sommelier, and then after, like, half an hour, sommelier with a raised eyebrow arrives by my seat and says, what can I do for you, sir? And I explained the situation. Then both eyebrows go up, says, give me a minute, and after like ten minutes arrives. What is your bag? On the overhead compartment, grabs it and says, follow me, sir. Instant upgrade. Unfortunately not the first class, but to business class.

Natalie MacLean 00:18:28 Well, that’s pretty good. Wow. On.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:18:30 On the condition that I would be sharing these bottles. I mean, it was a 13 hour flight. Well, even myself couldn’t really drink all 3.5l of different vintages of my sommelier.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:18:44 Yes. And I’m pretty sure that even the pilot might have for sure. The pilots had a sniff. I’m not sure whether they had a sip.

Natalie MacLean 00:18:55 Those were different days. Those are definitely different days.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:18:58 Different days, price wise as well. Because nowadays, 3.5l of Dominus cost us half my car or something. Oh I.

Natalie MacLean 00:19:07 Know. That’s a premium. Premium cult wine from Napa. Okay, so aside from living in Greece, what sparked your initial passion for Greek wines?

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:19:18 Greek wine is, within the DNA of Greek people. Even if you don’t think about wine, even if you know nothing about wine. We love Greek wine. If I can put, you know, my 14 year old Konstantinos past passing by a window where the Scorpions Blackout LP was blasting out.

Natalie MacLean 00:19:40 This is when you were 14.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:19:42 In a life. Then seven years later, my 21 year old self was walking past a wine shop in Piraeus that wasn’t there like a week ago, and I saw a bottle of wine that costed at that time 3200 drachmas.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:20:02 That was because before the euro. So it was drachmas. That was 91.

Natalie MacLean 00:20:06 I wonder how much that would be. Approximately in dollars.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:20:10 Now estimate it would be something like $7. $89.

Natalie MacLean 00:20:15 Okay, okay.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:20:17 Yeah, but at that time, at that time, from my 21 year old self, from my social and financial backgrounds, my family’s backgrounds. Spending $7 on a bottle of wine was like, what?

Natalie MacLean 00:20:35 Extravagant?

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:20:36 Yes. Are you that rich? To give you an idea. When I was going with my family in a taverna. Because that was the place we’re going. Spending $2 on a bottle of wine was pretty edgy. It was like, right there with my limitations. So for me, it was eye opening. So being very naive, if not audacious, I walk into the shop and I say, why this bottle costs that amount of money? So the the poor guy says, well, I’m really sorry. Let me check whether I did something wrong. And it was, something iffy with the invoice checks, the invoice that he got the wine.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:21:22 I said, no, that’s the price. Why? Well, I don’t really know. I’m new in the business, but I’m having an open party. The winemaker is going to be there. So come your mind. And you might invite. So. Yes. Please show up and ask him all the questions you need. I walked into the shop at the opening party. Some like a week after that with my then girlfriend. now my wife, you know, I was born, married, and, we have a chat with a wine maker, and I walked out of the shop feeling completely captivated. I bought a bottle of of that wine. I still have it in my cellar, unopened. but I walked way back. home. And I was talking with my wife, Tonia, and I said, bloody hell, I want to do that. At that time, I was studying mechanical engineering at the National Technical University of Athens, which is pretty much the top of the tree for Greek universities.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:22:24 I mean, it’s not Stanford, but it’s pretty damn good. And moving into the world of wine was something extremely risky. But I was fortunate because I had my parents really not caring what I do, but sticking to me, feeling happy to doing that. Antonio was immensely supportive. A heavy metal career was not very supportive. So actually my my, my hopes on becoming a heavy metal megastar were going down exactly at the time that my sort of wine hopes were picking up. I was like, that’s good.

Natalie MacLean 00:23:04 I think you made the right choice.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:23:06 Well, I hope the wine believes the same thing.

Natalie MacLean 00:23:09 It sure does. And then. So what made you want to become a master of wine? Because there were none in your country. So was it just that desire to keep learning?

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:23:21 That happened when I was 21. I started learning more and more about wine, and by the age of 24, I knew a few things about wine. But I was quite an anomalous statistic, an anomaly.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:23:34 A 24 year old boy that is interested into wine. At that time we had some clubs that they were doing, not masterclasses, tastings. It was more like a booze up with people that, what was the SouthPark quote like? wine tasting is like getting drunk, but it seems more, classy. I think that was I’m not sure whether I’m allowed to even say the word South Park in this podcast. Oh.

Natalie MacLean 00:24:06 That’s fine. Yes.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:24:09 So I got involved into a club, and there was a guy that was selling glasses, started a company selling wine glasses to restaurants, and there was a very famous and very expensive for the time. Restaurant in place called Palazzo. It was owned by a German that was the ex head chef of SA of Persia. So Shah of Persia was kicked out by Persia, by Iran, I think back in 1990. 1977. So he started a restaurant in Amsterdam, then moved to Greece, Athens and said, I need a Somalia. And no one ever had a Somalia before that guy.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:24:53 No one was asking for a Somalia before 1994. And the guy selling glass said, okay, Klaus. Klaus for your bar was the chef’s name. I have someone that might do the trick. So as I am the first Greek sommelier back in 94, there were, of course, people working as waiters that were Working on wine and, you know, doing things with wine. But the word sommelier in the halls, the one who pours the wine, is a proper ancient Greek word. It was me back in 94. I was something like a poster boy for the wine industry doing this thing. But I was revolted by the fact that most people in Greece had no idea about wine. And it was. We have an expression in Greece. I’ll try to translate it. It’s who you declare yourself to be. So if I’ve been in Bordeaux one time and I had a Grand Cru book in the a couple of times, I was an expert. I was a self-proclaimed expert. And then I could do consulting.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:26:01 I could do wine lists and restaurants. I could do everything I wanted to be. At that time, we had only a winemaking school, university, actually in Greece. But now learning how to make wine is something mildly different from selling wine, communicating wine, or understanding what’s the difference between Napa Valley and, you know, Sonoma? So I said, oh, I want to be something about wine and a yeah, it shouldn’t be wine making because I had getting dirty and then moving around places every other vintage. And then I wanted to do something that would be calibrating my, my standard. I would be going out and saying, I want to be this. I managed to achieve that level low, high, I don’t care. So the winemaker that I met back in 91 said, oh, you know, I export wines around US and UK and they say that, you know, there is a qualification called Master of Wine that is very prestigious. So I go Okay. I’ll try and b sign me up.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:27:11 Yeah. I went off and I started living in, London. how little I knew. I almost said to my wife, Tonya, you know, keep the bedroom, darling. I’m in London, and within a few months, I’ll be back. And then I moved to London, and I had the big slap mark over my cheeks over the first. Just the first couple of weeks. I was like, oh, that will take a lot of time. so I lived in London for five years at that time. Living in London was, possibly the only thing that could save you from growing your chances of passing the. Still, London is a beautiful place for wine lovers. At that time, I was tasting about a thousand wines a week. Can you imagine.

Natalie MacLean 00:28:05 £1,000 a week? Oh my God. Didn’t you get, like, tired?

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:28:08 No no no no. I’m sorry, I’m sorry. A thousand wines a month.

Natalie MacLean 00:28:11 A month? That’s a lot of wine.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:28:15 I mean, I was living in Notting Hill at that time where it was it was possible for people like me living in Notting Hill and by walking distance, either on Saturday or Sunday, you could visit, 6 or 7 places, wine shops and every single shop would be having five, six, ten wines that would be open for people to to taste, walk in taste, buy a case and you get, you know, one bottle for free.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:28:44 And after a bit of time, people knew me. I was the Greek widow that was trying to become a master of wine, and they were opening bottles that I want to taste or never had a Shannon from lower. Okay. Because let me open one for you then. You know, it was Australia Day tastings within a day you could do easily 100 wines. So I can not do that anymore. I can not do that anymore.

Natalie MacLean 00:29:06 Well, that’s quite the journey. So we should move on to France or France? Greece? Of course. Yes.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:29:12 Sneak into Greece?

Natalie MacLean 00:29:13 Yes. So let’s just paint a visual map. I think most people know where Greece is. But just very quickly, where is Greece on the map and what are the neighboring countries?

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:29:24 You are having Europe. And then you are having the Balkan Peninsula right towards the right, the east, and a little piece that is the sort of ending point of the Balkan Peninsula, which essentially is between Italy and Turkey. Some people say that this is the case culturally as well.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:29:48 This is Greece. Greece is a very complex unit of graphic level country. There are many reasons about that. And surrounded by sea bar, the north side. And we’re having I think per square kilometers we have the longest beach coastline as a country around the world, or very close to the top. It’s a pretty bizarre country. So it’s Greece, Mediterranean sea. Southern part and east. Part of Europe. Close to Turkey, but not quite close.

Natalie MacLean 00:30:24 Okay. There are about 700 wineries. About how much does Greece produce a year like? We have about seven, 800 wineries in Canada. So I’m wondering if it’s kind of the same in terms of production, approximately how much do they produce.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:30:40 Walking around in one exhibition? So one shows around the world and I see a number of people, even wine professionals, that have a wildly different expectations of what Greek wine is. Some people are surprised that Greece is producing any wine that happened to me, and someone could say that this is even more bizarre than the fistfight in the Saint-Petersburg I’ve witnessed.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:31:06 and we have other people that think that Greek wine is sort of commodities. A country that produces quite a bit of wine. So prepare to be shocked, I think. But Bordeaux produces about two times the wine that the entire Greek nation Greek country is producing. Just one region in France, arguably a big.

Natalie MacLean 00:31:31 Country. My goodness.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:31:33 Two times. This is a message that I would like to get across tonight. If you’re having a bottle of Greek wine in your cellar, or if you can walk to a wine shop and buy a bottle of wine from Greece, you are buying a very rare wine. A very rare wine. We’re buying a bottle of Bordeaux and we think that that’s rare. No, it’s not rare.

Natalie MacLean 00:31:58 No, there’s like 10,000 producers in Bordeaux and I’m talking 700 wineries in Greece. So it is artisanal and small and. Yeah, as you say, rare.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:32:07 It’s it’s getting even weirder, I think. We are exporting only 10% of our production.

Natalie MacLean 00:32:13 okay.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:32:13 We drink our wine, and then tourists coming in are thirsty for our wine.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:32:20 So we export just 10% of what we produce. We export basically because we want. Because we crave for that mid-December visit to New York to pretend we’re working while we’re enjoying the festive season. So it’s a very different mentality. So very tiny production. But you said the artisans scale and that’s very important. I mean, we are we are buying a bottle of okay, I’ll use a Greek related winery. So Karim Angelopoulos will not be very aggressive towards me. We’re talking about Chateau Margaux, and people pay a lot of money to buy a bottle of Chateau Margaux, which is a gorgeous wine. It’s a fantastic, mythical wine, and they think they’re buying something rare. No they’re not. You go to Osaka. You go to Rio de Janeiro. You go to us. Any city that drinks wine in the US and you have two, five, ten restaurants at least that sell Chateau Margaux because they are producing 200,000 bottles a year. There are very few quality Greek wines that even wineries that are as much.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:33:36 There are only ten estates in Greece that reach the average landholding of hectares in France. We are tiny.

Natalie MacLean 00:33:47 Tiny, tiny is good though. So what was the most unexpected insight you discovered while you were writing the book?

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:33:55 it was, well, all sorts of things. A great variety is that I’ve never had grape varieties that were up and coming producers that had, after I started digging in a completely different background from what I had in my mind in the world of wine in Greece is old and new at the same time. We have mechanical engineers, we have marble producers, we have artists fall in love in wine and saying, yeah, let’s, let’s do that. But because it’s a very vibrant state, we don’t pay enough attention to the stories before these people ended. Wine. These stories are important because they are, as you said, artisan scale. We don’t have the magnets for what you see in places like California. People that they made their fortune to a and then they think that moving to be meaning wine is something fancy is a lifestyle, and it will look great on on their personal, you know, LinkedIn accounts.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:34:59 it’s it’s more human, humane, should I say.

Natalie MacLean 00:35:02 Lots of people’s stories. And what’s a surprising piece of wine related trivia or a piece of history relating to wine and grease that you think that even seasoned wine professionals would not know?

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:35:15 Okay. how much time do you have?

Natalie MacLean 00:35:18 Short answer. Short is we can get through this.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:35:22 Okay. The great thing about Greek wine is that we have no idea what Greek wine is all about. We are having new grape varieties, new regions emerging by the vintage. I’ll. I’ll give you an example. Malaysia. Malaysia is a great grape variety. And, then we have about 200 producers producing a single vineyard. It’s a white. It’s a white. Okay. for me is an extremely forthcoming, yet very complex grape variety. It’s, quite intense on the nose. It can range from Muscat to Minty to tropical on the palate manages to be quite round, even creamy, without the need of extended release, contact or oak. But still, it has that amazing freshness.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:36:18 So a big surprise. Back in 1993, we had the first varietal Malaysia no, the first wine called Malaysia in the world, in Greece, in, wherever you might be caring to call. So one of the most important grape varieties has been around for how long was that like 30, 40 years? That is bound to happen again and again and again. You’re going to Italy, and pretty much every area that can make wine does or is verified as not very exciting. Grape varieties that have the whole thing sorted out by now. It’s highly unlikely that you will see a new up and coming grape variety coming up from Austria. Georgia. Maybe. Maybe. Georgia. In Greece, I’m pretty sure that if we are good to our health and we do this thing in 20 years, I hope you’re around doing these magnificent projects then. I’m pretty sure at that time I can come up with three, 4 or 5 names of grape varieties or regions that I have no idea that we speak.

Natalie MacLean 00:37:30 And yet these are ancient varieties, like they’ve been around like they were discovered 30 years ago, but they’ve been in Greece for a long time, right?

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:37:38 Okay, I’m repeatedly calling Greece Jurassic Park for Vitis vinifera.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:37:45 Are two ways the genetic complexity across clones of the same variety, and the genetic complexity across varieties is phenomenal. I’ll give you an example. Italy is producing 55 more wine than we do. So Italy is a giant when compared to what we’re producing in a year. Italy, 55 times larger vineyard, has about 1000 grape varieties. We are having 250 that are commercially available close to that. We have about 70 that are up and coming, so we are having more than 300. So the packing of DNA diversity is mind blowing in Greece. Also, what is really bizarre. It can be explained by the topography, is that we are having a lot of grape varieties, and 99.9% of these grape varieties are endemic. Endemic is a Greek word meaning found only in one place. So you stroll around Europe because the topography is a bit more flat, and the exchange was a bit different over the centuries. And you have that grape Czech Francos in Hungary, and you have people saying, Frank is in Austria, and then we do a DNA profiling, although the names were pretty similar, was pretty similar anyway.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:39:17 And you discover that Franco’s is the same thing with Frankie’s Primitivo with Zinfandel. The bizarre thing about Greek with vinifera database is that very few grape varieties have been doing anything significant in the neighboring countries. We’re having a lot of grape varieties in Italy bearing Greek names Atlantico, which means Hellenic or Hellas, Greece or Greco. We know that these are not related. There were other reasons that got a Greek sounding name, because in the ancient days the Greek wines were the famous, or if a grape was good, they were saying, oh, Greco, Greco, that’s Greco. Like we’re drinking good sparkling wine and we say, this is champagne. So it’s really a very old mixture of DNA of its vinifera, coupled with the great concept about consuming wine, celebrating wine that Greeks had at least the last five millennia. So it’s a work in progress. We’re starting with something with a very raw diamond. Still, I believe it’s a raw diamond. We’re getting into polishing pieces, but still, we have so much to discover.

Natalie MacLean 00:40:35 That’s exciting.

Konstantinos Lazarakis 00:40:37 And that was a short answer. Okay.

Natalie MacLean 00:40:45 Well, there you have it. I hope you enjoyed our chat with Konstantinos. Here are my takeaways. Number one. What makes wine worth waiting for? As Konstantinos observes, when you’re a fan of Barolo, or since we’re talking about the wines of Greece seen on arrival, then these wines are not immediately appealing, but hugely rewarding. Once you pay attention to them and calibrate your idea of what wine can be. The same could be said about heavy metal music. It’s appalling for many people, he says. However, it can be very technical, very artistic, very theatrical. So we’re living in a world where instant appeal is what most people want, whether they register that in their minds or not. But for Konstantinos, looking beyond the instant is rewarding. He has observed this in music, wine, books and many things. I’d add people to that list as well, especially when it comes to relationships. Number two how much wine is produced in Greece? Konstantinos says that many people, even wine professionals, have widely different expectations of what Greek wine is.

Natalie MacLean 00:41:53 Some are surprised that Greece is producing anyone at all. While others believe that Greek wine is a commodity produced in massive bulk. But, as he notes, the Bordeaux region of France produces twice the amount of wine as the entire country of Greece. And number three. What would surprise you about the wines of Greece? Konstantinos explains that the great thing about Greek wine is that we have no idea what Greek wine is all about. No baggage, I guess you could say. New grape varieties and regions emerge regularly. For example, Malaga is a grape variety produced by about 200 vineyards. It’s extremely forthcoming, yet very complex and intense. On the nose, it can range, he says. From Muscatine to Minty to tropical on the palate. It’s quite round, even creamy, without the need of extended lees contact or oak. But still it has this amazing freshness. This is one of the most important Greek varieties, and yet it’s only been around for about 30 or 40 years. And that’s bound to happen again and again, he notes.

Natalie MacLean 00:43:00 In Italy, by contrast, almost every area that can make wine does or is at least verified. And they’ve identified all of their grape varieties. So there’s a lot of excitement in the future for Greece. In the show notes, you’ll find the full transcript of my conversation with Konstantinos, links to his website and books the video versions of these conversations on Facebook and YouTube live, and where you can order my book online now, no matter where you live. If you missed episode 114, go back and take a listen. I chat about great wines for Valentine’s Day. I’ll share a short clip with you now to whet your appetite. I had thought that a mass tasting would help me better understand the style of this year’s crop, But what’s hitting me hardest is how alcoholic these wines are. I’m already feeling hot under the collar with just a few samples. Don’t get me wrong though. I like alcohol. It makes me happy and stops me from being the tightly wound control freak, as some people so unjustly characterize me.

Natalie MacLean 00:44:03 After we’ve shared a few glasses, I forgive these people. I’m so benevolent. Increasingly, though, I find that many wines today are too potent. To me, it’s simply alien. When a Pinot noir tastes like port, or I have to put it in the fridge before drinking it to numb the alcoholic heat. If I just wanted booze, I’d have a martini. But I drink wine for its taste. So the last thing I need is a blowtorch. Finish of bathtub gin. And now, here’s the bonus interview with Matt. Cause on his podcast, we explore topics such as Which wine should you pair with? Artichokes. That was definitely a warm up question. What inspired me to write wine? Which on fire? How did the events in that year kick off? My no good, very bad, terrible vintage personally and professionally? Have there been any lasting effects from these traumatic events? How has the wine industry evolved over the past 10 to 20 years? What are my thoughts on the current state of the wine review industry? You won’t want to miss next week when we continue our chat with Konstantinos, and we’ll also have part two of my conversation with Matt.

Natalie MacLean 00:45:17 If you liked this episode or learned even one teensy tiny thing from it, please email or tell a friend about the podcast this week, especially someone you know who’d be interested in learning more about Greek wines or even discovering them. It’s easy to find my podcast. Just tell them to search for Natalie MacLean Wine on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, their favorite podcast app, or they can listen to the show on my website at Natalie MacLean. Com forward slash podcast. Email me if you have a SIP tip question. If you’d like to win one of two copies of Konstantinos book, the remaining copy of Chris’s Champagne book, the remaining two bottles of Benzinga wine. Or if you’ve read my book or listening to it, I’d love to hear your thoughts about this episode. Were you surprised about Greek wines? Have you tried any? Have you discovered a favorite? Email me at Nathalie at Natalie MacLean. Com in the show notes, you’ll also find a link to take a free online food and wine pairing class with me, called the Five Wine and Food Pairing Mistakes That Can Ruin Your Dinner and How to Fix Them Forever.

Natalie MacLean 00:46:24 At Natalie MacLean. Com forward slash glass. And that’s all in the show notes at Natalie MacLean. Com forward slash 322. Thank you for taking the time to join me here. I hope something great is in your glass this week. Perhaps a delicious Malagasy wine from Greece.

Matt Cauz 00:46:50 Hey everyone and welcome to the Matt Talks Wine and Stuff With Interesting People podcast, and I’m joined by the Second Time by James Beard Foundation Journalism Award winner. It is Natalie MacLean her new book wine which on fire. Good morning Natalie. Thanks for being on the pod.

Natalie MacLean 00:47:07 It is great to be back here with you, Matt.

Matt Cauz 00:47:09 Yeah. I don’t know why I said good morning. When someone listens to this. It could be in the afternoon, but.

Natalie MacLean 00:47:14 But where we’re at, it’s why we’re not drinking yet. Yes.

Matt Cauz 00:47:18 Yeah, yeah. At 830 in the morning, though, the taste buds are quite alive. That would be a little.

Natalie MacLean 00:47:23 Primed, but I’m not right now. I don’t know about you.

Matt Cauz 00:47:28 No.

Matt Cauz 00:47:28 Absolutely not. I’m just finishing coffee. There is so many things to get in this book. Serious stuff. Fun stuff. Relationship stuff. Drinking while watching Tina Fey. I don’t even know the best spot to begin, so I’m going to go on a very small thing. Early in the book, you talk about artichokes for people listening. What wine would you pair with? Artichokes?

Natalie MacLean 00:47:51 Right. So I’m glad we’re starting with the most important thing first. So, Matt, with steak you have protein, which loves to glom onto the tannins in wine. It’s that furry mouth feeling that you get, you know, if you’re eating walnuts or over steep tea. However, with green vegetables like artichoke and to a certain extent, asparagus, they tend to be the stuff of sommeliers nightmares. They have an organic compound called cinnamon, and what that does is it stimulates our taste buds, sweet sensors or sugar receptors. And it fools us into thinking that everything we drink or eat after we’ve eaten artichokes or asparagus actually tastes sweeter than it is.

Natalie MacLean 00:48:36 So you can imagine the the havoc it wreaks on artichokes and sommeliers professional careers. So they really distort wine. So what you want in a wine is one that’s bone dry, with lots of crisp acidity, so that even if it gets softened and you get a little perception of sweetness, it doesn’t taste flabby or cloying. So think Austrian Gruner veltliner. New Zealand sauvignon blanc. All your nice crisp whites.

Matt Cauz 00:49:04 Perfect. You know what? Because this could be like a heavy conversation. I just want to start somewhere light.

Natalie MacLean 00:49:09 But of course, let’s warm up.

Matt Cauz 00:49:10 What made you decide to write this book? Because so many wine books are a little bit personal. Yours is really personal about your divorce, about raising your child, about dating, about drinking too much, about trying to handle all that. Like this book is both, and I would recommend this to anyone. This book is both very serious, very personal. Also, like there’s a lot of fun in it as well. But what made you decide to do it? Well.

Natalie MacLean 00:49:36 The events in this book took place ten years ago, as you know, having read it, Matt. But I think the themes and the issues are more relevant today. But for the first five years after my no good, terrible, very bad vintage, personally and professionally, I couldn’t even look at the notes that I had taken. I locked them away for five years and thought, I just can’t even I can’t deal with this. So many years of therapy later, and with the healing of time, I was able to look at them again. But really prompted me was that I was hearing a lot of stories from women in the wine industry. You touched on a lot of the personal issues, but of course there was a professional inciting incident, which I’m sure we’ll get to. And there specifics, the specifics of what had happened to them were different, but the issues and the feelings were the same. And it wasn’t just women in the wine industry. It was women in tech and finance and sport in the military.

Natalie MacLean 00:50:40 We’re still hearing all of those stories. So I just thought, you know, maybe it’s time to talk about it. I’ve been in this industry for more than 20 years, and there are a lot of young women who cannot talk about these things for fear of damaging their career, because the wine industry, as you know, Matt, is a very close knit, pun intended, very tight social grapevine. Word gets around very quickly and you can be ostracized, as I was. And so I thought, well, you know what? You can’t kill me twice. At least I hope not. And I think that if I tell my story, it might be helpful to someone else. I know the cliche feel less alone, but I guess, you know, when my family asked, why on earth are you writing about this? I love what Glennon Doyle, the memoirist Glennon Doyle said, write from a scar, not an open wound. So you need the lens of time to make sense of what happened.

Natalie MacLean 00:51:40 But they said, okay, you got the scars. Now you’ve done the healing. I love what poet Sean Doherty said, because somewhere someone out there right now has a wound in the exact shape of your words.

Matt Cauz 00:51:54 Was it difficult for you to go back to those notes after not looking at them for so many years?

Natalie MacLean 00:51:59 It was. It was. You know, they’ve done studies and this is in the book as well. They’ve taken MRI brain scans of people who’ve been in a near-fatal car accident or accident. And I’m not equating what happened to me as that, but the science is interesting. So they read them a script of what happened in that car accident, and they’re monitoring the brain, and it’s lighting up in the same areas as actually being in the incident. So they’re not remembering it. They’re reliving it. And so to go back into the events took an emotional toll. But again, through the amazing power of time and healing, you can pull back from that and start to reflect on what happened.

Natalie MacLean 00:52:48 Because no one wants a misery dump. As a memoir, that’s not useful to anyone, including the author. No one wants a revenge book. The healing is not done. If you’re trying to do revenge with a book. What people want is something they can take away from for themselves. So again, their story might be different, but how did you come out of it? How did you articulate those feelings? I’m having trouble articulating. In the end, a good memoir is not what happened to you. It’s what you did with it.

Matt Cauz 00:53:17 And yeah, and certainly having that time, that perspective, then, you know, allows you to attack it from a different angle. And yeah, and you bounce around through all the things. It’s not just 1 or 2 two chapters. You know, there’s flashbacks and then, you know, more present day stuff. So let’s talk about late 2012. And also I enjoyed in the book early on, you did a thing X amount of hours until your world implodes.

Matt Cauz 00:53:39 I thought that was a good technique. Back in 2012, there was accusations levied against you, against the website. Initially, you know the words plagiarism. It became issues about copyright. I was wondering just first, from your perspective to the listeners who don’t know what happened?

Natalie MacLean 00:53:58 Sure. Well, it was just before Christmas, so this is a heartwarming holiday tale. Not so much, but there is. As you said, there is humor. Again, no one can withstand reading something that is just a downer all the way. So I call it My Nightmare Before Christmas. But I was checking my email one last time before going to bed when a Google alert popped up in my inbox and the headline was Natalie MacLean MacLaine, world’s best wine writer or content thief. And my jaw, my heart just dropped to the floor. To the extent that, you know, I felt like the text was blurring in and out. And I was thinking, what the hell? Where did this come from? And I clicked through to a large American wine site, and there was a long rant.

Natalie MacLean 00:54:49 And at first, you know, you’re just responding emotionally. So it was just phrases burning into my retina. And it wasn’t simply a nasty post. It was, you know, I was being accused of the one thing a writer dreads most. You know, doctors lose their license for malpractice. Lawyers get disbarred for misrepresentation writers. We get our careers canceled for copyright attribution. And the accusation, as you mentioned, was not about plagiarism, but rather about fair use in quoting other wine reviews to provide more context about a wine, which is what I was doing just as Rotten Tomatoes. The movie site provides lots of critic reviews on the movie, but people confuse the two concepts. But there’s a huge difference legally, and we won’t go down that legal rabbit hole. So I was the first to comment on the blog post. I explained that I was already changing the way that I attributed reviews, as it wasn’t something that had been brought to my attention in the past, nor did they contact me about it.

Natalie MacLean 00:55:52 This website, this American site, though they did manage to contact a wide range of other wine writers. In the weeks before when they were writing the post for comment. And so I naively thought that if I explained what I was doing and how I was fixing the reviews, that would be the end of it. I was really wrong about that and a lot of other things. So their accusation ignited the debate online, but the bonfire really escalated when the commenters started to attack me as a woman, and it devolved into taking my body apart piece by piece and commenting on it. And this was at the time when I was just removing all of the reviews wholesale. Like, I don’t even like to just delete them. Even though I was not asked to do that. And some would say, you know, just ignore it. My God. Turn off the internet. But when you earn your living online, you can no more turn off the internet than like a surgeon can perform surgery outside the hospital, you know.

Natalie MacLean 00:56:55 So daily I drank the venom and the frenzy carried on.

Matt Cauz 00:57:00 Yeah. First, all the parts of anything dealing with your body or Photoshop. I mean, absolutely gross and just unnecessary. And also something that we still see today. It’s the darkest side of the internet. But as you said, your job is your Natalie MacLean. It’s the website. And so no, you would not be able to get off of it. What were the things that may be when it came to Canadian copyright laws? What were the things maybe you got wrong?

Natalie MacLean 00:57:26 Oh, so many things. This ignorance is never a defense of violating a law. But in this case, I had not violated any law. I enrolled originally in an MBA. LLB law degree, business degree at Western, dropped the law degree, finish the MBA. But by the time this thing was finished, I feel like I had my law degree with a specialty in copyright. In any case, what I got wrong was that what happened is I got another Google alert out a year before this one that started everything, and it was a Google alert about one of my wine reviews being posted on another wine site.

Natalie MacLean 00:58:02 And I thought, that’s interesting, because they had been in touch with me and asked me to be part of their wine site, put my reviews on theirs, and I declined politely because I thought, well, why are people going to come to my wine site if you are posting my reviews as well? So anyway, so But so then I was really curious. Well, why are they posting my wine reviews? When I declined and, I went over to their, their website looked and there was like, more than a dozen of my reviews on there. And then it twigged. I thought, oh, they’re they’re copying all of my reviews that are on the Lcbo, the provincial liquor board site, you know, because they publish all of our reviews, all the writer’s reviews on their site with each vintages review and other instances too. So I thought, oh, well, okay, this is a government site posting wine reviews from other sites or from other writers. It must be in the public domain.

Natalie MacLean 00:58:58 That was mistake number one. That does not mean it’s automatically in the public domain. The second mistake was, oh, this wine site is publishing all of them, repurposing them, quoting them, whatever however you want to put it. I should be able to do that too. Wrong. Just because somebody else is doing something doesn’t mean you could do it. You should check into it. I learned that, and so, like, those were the two biggest mistakes. a third was, the Lcbo at the time was using initials to, quote reviews. I started doing that as well because I already had a directory, a legend, where I explained all kinds of things because there was like 36 pieces of information for every wine. People were going to mobile like from ABV, you know, average, like alcohol level, etc.. Anyway, that didn’t necessarily mean it was okay either. So net net, those were all the mistakes. I got legal help from a copyright expert, and his take was you’re in the bounds of copyright.

Natalie MacLean 01:00:07 We call it fair dealing in Canada. They call it fair use. In the United States. There’s a bunch of exceptions under the law for copyright. If you’re quoting something for education, criticism, review, short passages, etc. it was in the bounds of that. It was legal. But still I misunderstood so many things about what I was doing. I didn’t look into it when I should have. I did in the end remove them all. But that was kind of where it all snowballed.

Matt Cauz 01:00:38 Yeah. So a lot of it’s spirit of the law versus letter of the law. How much easier would all of this have been if many, many years ago when this all started, if the people that wrote the initial article had contacted you and explained where maybe you were making mistakes and finding a solution beyond what happened.

Natalie MacLean 01:00:58 Well, it would have been a heck of a lot easier for me. For them, I don’t know. I mean, the article generated the most comments they ever had, so maybe they were pleased with the SEO value and the clickbait.

Natalie MacLean 01:01:09 But but for me, like, there’s so many layers to this. I had been a contributor to this wine site in the past, but it had been many years since I had contributed. There was no acrimony. I just hadn’t contributed in a while. But they had my contact. They had me still on their masthead on the website. And Patrick Fagan, who was the wine columnist for the Chicago Tribune, commented on this post, said, you know, I noticed Natalie is on your masthead. Could this not have been handled in-house? And the editor at the time of the site said, we stand by our comments and didn’t answer his question. So yeah, it would have been a lot easier, a lot less grief and a lot less misunderstanding. But I promised myself after this never to try to mind read, so I don’t know. I guess that’s not what they were looking for.

Matt Cauz 01:02:11 I still want to move on. I just, I wanted to get because this is a big part of your book.

Matt Cauz 01:02:15 I mean, this is right in the central part. Do you still feel the effects of it today? Do you still feel any sort of is there still negative things today from what happened then?

Natalie MacLean 01:02:24 Just the physical effects. So at the time this happened in about 11 days, I lost about £14, which is not a good thing to do. But also I developed a heart murmur and that stays with me today. So that didn’t go away. And, you know, I got, you know, the the heart monitor, tests, EKG and ECG. I always mix them up. Ones for brain, ones for heart. But that developed and remains with me. And I only bring that up. Not to say, oh, poor little me, but to say that words do have real, tangible physical impact. We can’t dismiss them as sticks and stones will break my bones. That is the lasting impact. The other thing is that, you know, and I remain in therapy and that’s I would anyway.

Natalie MacLean 01:03:12 I’m a big believer in therapy, but, you know, there’s always a trepidation if somebody says, I mean, I’ve been very fortunate in terms of since the book has come out, the response has been resoundingly positive. But there was always that trepidation of, oh, it just takes one thing and then it’s going to snowball again. So you always have that somewhere inside you going, like, when is it going to happen again? Unfortunately.

Matt Cauz 01:03:41 Now that this is more of a scar and not a wound, which by the way, that is a really good quote. That is a really good way of dealing with things. It says a lot and not a lot of words. Not the people that said personal attacks and not anything visual, not any of that disgusting stuff. Can you understand why some people would have been upset at the time? People that were the vanguard for journalism?

Natalie MacLean 01:04:05 Absolutely. And part of the memoir is, you know, you have to be toughest on yourself and realize, why were you so blind to this? And as I explained in which On Fire I was competitive, I was perfectionistic, but I was also on my high horse.

Natalie MacLean 01:04:26 I thought real journalism was about long form narrative, the long stories. I thought wine reviews were like the throwaway stuff, like recipes of the food world. And so I didn’t respect my own enough. I didn’t respect others enough because I didn’t care about them. I just thought, it’s it’s like yesterday’s newspaper. Who cares? So I overlooked the importance that wine reviews have for many, or certainly a number of wine writers. That’s what they do. But I also overlooked the importance to consumers. What’s more of service? Giving someone a weekly shopping list of wines to buy, or giving them a book that’s lyrical and whatever. Beautifully written. I mean, I think the greatest service journalism are the wine reviews now. But it sure took me a while to come around to that, to have my Damascene moment of falling off my high horse and realizing, hey, there’s a place for this. And not only do you need to respect the wine reviews of others, but you need to respect their use to consumers, and you need to start respecting your own work, your own wine reviews, and not just toss away.

Matt Cauz 01:05:40 That is fascinating. I guess maybe just your background, you know, you’re going into law in big tech and you’re doing all these huge, high minded things so I can understand it. It’s like, well, it’s a wine review. It’s there for fun and figuring out the acidity and what to pair it with. Okay, moving from that, there’s a lot of other serious stuff I want to talk about. But first, Natalie, I’m very angry at you. There’s one thing in your book. Wine which on fire. You don’t reveal early on. You say you’re you’re you’re having that horrible dinner with your ex-husband at your local restaurant, and you write where I’m having my favorite Pinot noir. You never said what your favorite Pinot noir was.

Natalie MacLean 01:06:20 I just thought it would damage the brand to besmirch it in such a negative situation, you know? Just kidding. No, no, it’s, 30 bench Pinot noir from Niagara. I love it. I still drink it. Pinot noir. I opened the book with, you know, a wine label that I made up Duane McLain.

Natalie MacLean 01:06:36 And compare a book, The Writer’s Voice, to Terroir in Wine. I find there’s many similarities, but the wine was 30 bench Pinot noir. Emma Garner, winemaker, rock star.

Matt Cauz 01:06:50 Yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, bench lands. I mean, God, what we do. Actually, you know what? Off topic. Your first book. If I remember correctly, you were down in, you were at DRC. Correct?

Natalie MacLean 01:07:01 Yes. Domaine Romani Conti in Burgundy? Yes.

Matt Cauz 01:07:03 Yes. So I am not comparing what he does with Ontario. Let me say that on the front end. But this is a long way of me saying when you compare the quality of the Ontario Pintos and shards today that you review in 2024 versus when you got started, can you tell some sort of qualitative difference between where it was 20 years ago versus now? Oh yeah.

Natalie MacLean 01:07:27 It’s a revolution. I mean, it’s just it’s phenomenal. I mean, there’s so many changes that have happened from, you know, new technology to techniques to knowing our soil and climate better to the international stages.

Natalie MacLean 01:07:40 All these young winemakers go in and, you know, the knowledge pool. So much has changed. And, you know, my favorite Pinot noir remains 30 bench because I don’t have a trust fund for drinking DRC every weekend. But when we stand shoulder to shoulder with Pinot noirs around the world, our pinots could be double or triple the price for the quality that we produce.

Matt Cauz 01:08:04 Don’t say that out loud. I know.

Natalie MacLean 01:08:05 I don’t edit.

Natalie MacLean 01:08:06 That out. Please.

Matt Cauz 01:08:08 That’s the part I’m going to edit out. No, but it’s true. I tell everyone. I tell everyone all the time. If you can’t afford Premier Cru Burgundy. I mean, I have 70th birthday for girlfriend’s father. I brought a gravity flat, Rock Cellars Pinot noir. Yeah, because of. Yeah. Just how good that all is. All right, so I just needed to ask you about that. Okay.

Natalie MacLean 01:08:28 Glad we cleared that up.

Matt Cauz 01:08:29 Yes. Thank you. What is life like as a wine reviewer? In terms of how much travel, how much wine, how much ridiculous amount of time you’re spitting wine before lunch.

Natalie MacLean 01:08:42 So I know the palate is best tasting in the morning, but I can’t do that. I save morning times for writing when my brain is at its best. I am a morning person, so I will taste late afternoon before dinner. That’s when I do my tasting. So in terms of number of wines. Average maybe 3035 wines. I mean, I get samples every day. People think, oh, poor little you tiny little violin. But it is a job and you’re trying to be analytical. It’s the difference, Matt. Like if a movie critic goes to see a movie, they’re not just sitting back and taking it in. They’re making notes on the plot and the character development and the narrative arc and whatever. So it is work. It’s analysis, but I enjoy it, obviously. So that’s when and how much I’m tasting. Travel wise, I’ve always been a homebody, a hermit. I love being in my home office and I love writing more than traveling. So my travel, I really space out because I like to be able to have the time to digest what I’ve seen and done, and then to write about it.

Natalie MacLean 01:09:50 I can’t really I mean, I’ll make notes when I’m on the road, but the actual creating the article really happens at home. So therefore I probably don’t travel near as much as a lot of other writers do. And it’s just my natural introversion shyness. I really just don’t like being out there.

Matt Cauz 01:10:09 The State of Wine review right now. As you said, when you had your own revelation about how important it is, is that wine reviewers can have a great amount of impact. And we’ve seen influences on wines and, you know, 95 points. It’s a big question to ask, but just right now, your thoughts on the state of the wine review industry?

Natalie MacLean 01:10:31 I mean, there’s so many more voices now, which I think is a good thing. Everyone needs to find their person. So if you follow someone, you think, oh, every time he or she says, Violet’s in a Pinot noir, I know I’m going to buy that one no matter what they score it or whatever. You need to find your person.

Natalie MacLean 01:10:52 And now there’s so many more people. So yeah, it’s more democratic. It’s not just the newspaper columnists. Those are dying breed. Anyway, although, you know, there’s several, that remain very well respected, you know, so you’ve got your Instagram influencers, you’ve got your people who review online sites like I do. Still, you’ve got magazines. There’s just more choice. I think that’s a good thing. And I think you need to just figure out who your person is.

Matt Cauz 01:11:21 I’m going to be more pointed. My last question was horrible was two you could have spent four hours on it. That one’s on me. Like in terms of me with wine reviews, it’s such a different world than you are. my rule is and also, I serve a very different sort of audience. I only post the positive reviews. I always tell anyone who sends me wine if I tried and don’t like it, I’m not going to say a word and no one will know unless it’s a crazy chemical sugar bomb where I’m like, maybe don’t drink that wine.

Matt Cauz 01:11:51 But that’s my philosophy, because for me, wine, I’m just doing it more on the joy side. But I’m a tourist. I’m not as hardcore into it as you are. How is it for you in terms of how do you feel when you’ve been sent wines and you’re like, this is nowhere near variety, correct?

Natalie MacLean 01:12:08 So I used to think, well, you know, am I going to be like Robert Parker, the US critic who modeled himself after Ralph Nader, who was a consumer advocate for cars? I think wine and cars are just cannot be comparable. But anyway, again, early on and still to today, I don’t view my role as a hardcore critic. I just, I just don’t. I’m a writer and along with the writing goes some recommendations. And so what I decided fairly early on was I’m not going to write about bad wines either. And why is that? It’s not in service to the wineries. Actually, it is in service to my readers. They do not need a really long list of bad wines to remember to not buy.

Natalie MacLean 01:12:58 I’m recommending hundreds thousands of wines that are great and worthy of their attention and pocketbook. I also had to get over my own biases. You know, I’m early on. It wasn’t a fan of demeanor. And I write things like, well, if you like Gewurztraminer and people start saying, what do you mean? If you like a demeanor, I like a first demeanor. So you have to get past your personal prejudices, including wines that have a lot of residual sugar or whatever. Like there seems to be bias sometimes against wines that are sweet, but there’s a whole lot of people who love those wines. Maybe I don’t drink them in my personal time, but that doesn’t mean I need to slam them for being sweet. They are what they are. And would they appeal to people who like that style? But don’t put it that way. But that’s why I just don’t like if people ask me, I’m about to, you know, I’m going to add to my vertical collection of, you know, this bottle that’s $300 every year.

Natalie MacLean 01:13:56 What would you rate it? I’ll tell them. Hey, 88, you know, that’s that’s a signal. Don’t buy it. But other than that, you know what? I feel like it’s stepping on caterpillars on the sidewalk. Why bother? There’s just so many butterflies to say. Look, those are worth your attention.

Matt Cauz 01:14:10 It’s a good point. Life is short.

Natalie MacLean 01:14:13 Life is very short. You don’t want to miss one juicy episode of this podcast, especially the secret full bodied bonus episodes that I don’t announce on social media. So subscribe for free now at Natalie MacLean. Com forward slash. Subscribe. Meet me here next week. Cheers.

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