Flute or White Wine Glass for Champagne, Serving Tips and Styles with Chris Ruhland

Natalie MacLean
Jan1st

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Introduction

Should you drink Champagne from a white wine glass or a flute? What is the ideal temperature range for serving Champagne? What might surprise you about the technical side of Champagne production?

In this episode of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, I’m chatting with Christopher S. Ruhland, author of Press for Champagne: A Guide to Enjoying the World’s Greatest Sparkling Wine.

You can find the wines we discussed here.

 

Giveaway

Three of you are going to win a copy of his terrific book, Press for Champagne: A Guide to Enjoying the World’s Greatest Sparkling Wine.

 

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After that, scroll down a tiny bit more and click on “Write a Review.” That’s it!

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Highlights

  • Why does Chris prefer using a white wine glass instead of the traditional elongated flute for Champagne?
  • What’s the problem with clear glass bottles for Champagne?
  • What is the ideal temperature range for serving Champagne?
  • Which point in history does Chris consider to be the most pivotal moment in the development of Champagne as we know it today?
  • What might surprise you about the technical side of Champagne production?
  • Which notable contributions have women made in Champagne history?
  • What was the significance of the Champagne riots in 1911?
  • How did the Champagne region recover after the World Wars, and what were the lasting effects on the industry?
  • How does chalky soil contribute to the hallmark qualities of Champagne?
  • What’s the difference between the oxidative and reductive styles of Champagne?
  • Why don’t we hear more about reserve wines?
  • What was it like to drink decades-old Champagne, and how are the bubbles affected by aging?
  • What is dosage, and what is its role in Champagne production?
  • How can you plan the best trip to make the most of the Champagne region?

 

Key Takeaways

  • Should you drink Champagne from a white wine glass or a flute?
    • I’m all for the white wine glass, Chris says, but I don’t like flutes because you can’t smell the wine. They’re too thin to sense the aromas from the wine. I use tulip-shaped glasses and if you go to the Champagne region, you’ll see these in use all over the place. If I go to a restaurant and think they might use a flute, I ask right away if they can just give us white wine glasses. And a lot of times the sommelier will say, Oh yeah, that’s how I enjoy it, too.
  • What is the ideal temperature range for serving Champagne?
    • Chris says that temperature affects the texture of the wine and the bubbles. You wouldn’t want it colder than it gets in your refrigerator. You certainly wouldn’t want to put it in the freezer because it’s 12 and a half percent alcohol so it will eventually freeze. If you have it in your refrigerator and you pour in a glass, it’s going to start warming up immediately. So the point is to start at a cold temperature.
  • What might surprise you about the technical side of Champagne production?
    • Chris says most people are surprised at how much work it takes to make a bottle of champagne. Most people think making wine is easy, as we’ve been doing it for thousands of years. You need grapes, put it in the vessel, and pretty soon you’re going to get wine. But Champagne is very much a human-made product in that it requires a lot of separate steps done by hand. Once you appreciate that, you hold a bottle of champagne and think, wow, this wine has been through a lot to create it.

 

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Most people are surprised at how much work it takes to make a bottle of Champagne in a winery. - David Way David Way Click to tweet

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I’m all for the white wine glass. I don’t like flutes. - David Way David Way Click to tweet

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Lots of women are involved in Champagne. I’m not sure there’s another wine that, when you go back and look at its history, you see so many women. - David Way David Way Click to tweet

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Wine only matters in the ability of a wine drinker to have this subjective experience. - David Way David Way Click to tweet

 

About Christopher S. Ruhland

Christopher S. Ruhland trained and worked as a lawyer for thirty years before becoming a mediator. He holds the Diploma in Wines & Spirits from the Wine & Spirit Education Trust and he has passed the French Wine Scholar, Bordeaux Master-Level, and Rhône Master-Level examinations given by the Wine Scholar Guild, all with Highest Honors. He is also an avid collector and reader of wine books, which, he says, take up way too much space in his home. He is the author of the award-winning Press for Champagne: A Guide to Enjoying the World’s Greatest Sparkling Wine and gives presentations about Champagne and teaches wine courses.

 

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Transcript

Natalie MacLean 00:00:00 Should you drink Champagne from a white wine glass or a flute? What is the ideal temperature range for serving Champagne? And what might surprise you about the technical side of actually making Champagne? In today’s episode, you’ll hear the stories and tips that answer those questions in Part Two of our chat with Chris Ruhland, author of Press for Champagne: A Guide to Enjoying the World’s Greatest Sparkling Wine. You don’t need to have listened to Part One from last week first, but if you missed it, go back and have a listen after you finish this one. By the end of our conversation, you’ll also discover which notable contributions women have made to Champagne. Which point in history was the most pivotal moment in the development of Champagne as we know it today. The significance of the Champagne riots in 1911. How the Champagne region recovered after the World Wars and the lasting impacts on the industry. How chalky soil contributes to the hallmark qualities of  Champagne. The differences between oxidative and reductive styles of Champagne. Why we don’t hear more about the reserve wines. What it was like to drink decades old Champagne, and how the bubbles are affected by aging. What is dosage and its role in Champagne production. And how to make the most of your trip to the Champagne region?

Natalie MacLean 00:01:28  Do you have a thirst to learn about wine? Do you love stories about wonderfully obsessive people, hauntingly beautiful places, and amusingly awkward social situations? Well, that’s the blend here on the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast. I’m your host, Natalie MacLean, and each week I share with you unfiltered conversations with celebrities in the wine world, as well as confessions from my own tipsy journey as I write my third book on this subject. I’m so glad you’re here. Now pass me that bottle, please, and let’s get started.

Natalie MacLean 00:02:10 Welcome to episode 318. Three of you will win a copy of Chris’s terrific award winning book Press for Champagne: A Guide to Enjoying the World’s Greatest Sparkling Wine. All you have to do is email me and let me know that you’d like to win. I’ll choose three people randomly from those who contact me at [email protected]. It does not matter where you live. In other bookish news, if you’re reading the paperback or e-book or listening to the audiobook of my memoir Wine Witch on Fire: Rising from the Ashes of Divorce, Defamation, and Drinking Too Much,  I’d love to hear from you at [email protected]. I’d also be happy to send you personally signed book plates for the copies you buy for yourself, or give as gifts. I’ll put a link in the show notes to all retailers worldwide at nataliemaclean.com/318. The paperback usually arrives within a day or two of ordering. The e-book and audiobook are instantly available. Okay, on with the show.

Natalie MacLean 00:03:17 You write about the evolution of wine glasses. What’s your take on the recent trend of using a white wine glass instead of the traditional elongated flute for Champagne?

Chris Ruhland 00:03:28 Yeah, so first of all, I’m all for the white wine glass. I don’t like flutes. I make that clear in the book and elsewhere because you can’t smell the wine.  I mean, that’s the real problem. They’re way too thin to get the aromas from the wine. I use these  tulip shaped glasses like this for the most part. And if you go to Champagne, you’ll see these in use all over the place. I don’t remember seeing the flutes the last time I went to Champagne, but when I go to a restaurant and I order a bottle of Champagne, and I have the idea that they might put it in a flute, I just ask right away if they can just give us white wine glasses. A lot of times it’s interesting from sommeliers. They say, oh, yeah, that’s how I enjoy it too. So yeah, I’m a big fan of the white wine glass for Champagne.

Natalie MacLean 00:04:15 I am too, for swirling and all the rest of it. Yeah. While we’re on the glassware topic, you have a strong stance against clear glass bottles for Champagne. So why did you want to highlight that issue in your book?

Chris Ruhland 00:04:30 It is one thing that is super annoying because clear glasses for wine, especially a more delicate wine like Champagne, you really have the possibility of getting what’s called light strike, and you can have this oniony garlicky taste in your wine. So I just don’t think it’s a good idea. When I wrote the book, I did mention Ruinard’s Blanc de Blanc which is sold in a clear glass bottle, and they promote the fact that it’s in a glass bottle. Now, at about the same time, they started selling it in what they call second skin, which is a covering. I’ve still seen these bottles without the skin, and I’m not sure that consumers understand that they’re meant to stay on and protect the wine. Cristal, to be fair, its bottles are clear too, but they have a long history of covering it in this foil and also put you in a box. And I think people who buy Cristal are more, more likely to store it appropriately.

Natalie MacLean 00:05:23 And doesn’t the covering have a special like light blocks UV light or something like that? It’s this really golden, not saran wrap, covering. It’s really beautifully done. The way they’ve sort of wrapped it in that before putting it in the box.

Chris Ruhland 00:05:38 Yes. And that’s the purpose of it. And it seems to work. In their case, there’s a tradition of having that glass bottle. And I think it’s not great that they do it either, but I think it’s probably less dangerous than what other producers do. Obviously most bottles are going to be totally fine, but I would hate to take the risk.

Natalie MacLean 00:06:02 Cristal becomes cloudy. You discuss the importance of temperature when it comes to Champagne. Do you have a temperature range for Champagne or is it going to vary by style, or what kind of serving tips do you have?

Chris Ruhland 00:06:17 So there are different thoughts on that. My thought is that it should be cold. So I put it in an ice bucket or in the refrigerator and make it cold. In fact, I’ve got bottles right here. This is the first time I ever brought an ice bucket to my study. I don’t want to drink warm Champagne. And also, it really does affect the texture of the wine. It affects the bubbles.  So I think making it cold. And this doesn’t seem that difficult to  make cold, but the mistake I see a lot of times in restaurants and at people’s homes, they’ll have an ice bucket, they’ll layer some ice on the bottom, and it’ll just drop the bottle on top of the ice, which is not going to make the bottle cold. You need to put water in there. Ice and water.

Natalie MacLean 00:07:01 Yes.  Ice and water combined is faster than even having a full bucket of ice. Like it’s more disperse the cold against the bottle. Science and everything.

Chris Ruhland 00:07:12 Yes, exactly.

Natalie MacLean 00:07:14 Is there, apart from freezing it,  but is there a temperature at which Champagne is too cold that you can’t appreciate the aromas?

Chris Ruhland 00:07:21 I mean, yes, I mean obviously. And again we’re going you’re at Celsius and I’m in Fahrenheit. I think you wouldn’t want it colder than it gets in your refrigerator. Let’s put it that way. You certainly won’t want to put the freezer, of course, because it’s 12.5% alcohol. If you put it in the freezer, it will eventually freeze, but you just wouldn’t want it that cold. And frankly, the thing is, if you have it in your refrigerator and you pour it in a glass, it’s going to start warming up immediately. So the temperature is going to increase. So the point is to start at a cold temperature. Get it into your glass. It’s immediately going to be a little bit warmer. And I just think that’s the way it’s going to be enjoyed. Best for most people.

Natalie MacLean 00:08:01 I agree, I agree. And the book delves into the history of Champagne production. What do you consider to be kind of the most important or pivotal moment in the development of Champagne as we know it today?

Chris Ruhland 00:08:13 I think the most pivotal moment would have to be Louis the 15th in 1728, decreeing that wine could be transported in bottles. It seems strange now to think that that would be an issue. But before that, for all sorts of reasons and tax reasons, wine had to be transported only in barrels, which obviously does not work for a sparkling wine that’s going to lose bubbles if you were to do that. So that really opened up the door to really sell sparkling Champagne in significant quantities. And in fact, the very next year, in 1729, Ruinart became the first Champagne house, producing sparkling wines. And the rest is history. So I guess we have King Louis the 15th to thank for all of this.

Natalie MacLean 00:09:01 Thanks, Louis. And it was the English that perfected the bottles that were strong enough to hold Champagne without it exploding versus the French, because they were perfecting coal fired furnaces, which were burned much more hotter than wood. Okay, that was also probably pretty important as well. What surprised you most about the technical side of Champagne production during your research?

Chris Ruhland 00:09:27 I think, when I was writing the book, nothing surprised me about the technical side because I understood it. But I will say that most people are surprised at how much work has to take place in the winery to make a bottle of Champagne. It is interesting and surprising to those people. And you think about making wine. It’s not that making wine is easy, but in concept it’s simple and human beings have been doing it for thousands of years. You need grapes, put it in a vessel somewhere, and pretty soon you’re going to get wine. But Champagne is very much a human made product. You have to do a whole bunch of things, and you have to do them well at a certain amount of time to make a single bottle of Champagne. And so I think, and I describe it, fortunately, I think hopefully briefly in my book so that it’s not too detailed. But, once you appreciate it, you hold a single bottle of Champagne, you think, wow, this bottle, this wine has been through a lot. Alot was done to make this bottle of wine.

Natalie MacLean 00:10:25 Yeah, absolutely. There’s so many more steps. Some of the important steps contributions were from women in Champagne’s history. Like Veuve Clicquot, whom you’ve mentioned. Veuve means widow of course. She developed the riddling technique, the turning the bottles and eventually the spent yeast ends up in the neck of the bottle, and then you can disgorge get it out of there, and then it’s nice and clear. Can you share some other notable women who influenced Champagne production?

Chris Ruhland 00:10:55 Yeah, it’s fascinating that. I mean, today lots of women are involved in Champagne. They they’re in charge of making the wines in charge of the houses. But when you go back in history, in the history of wine, I think it’s rare to see so many women involved in really important aspects. And. And the widow, she not only created riddling with a rack, but she also is credited with making the first Rosé. Then you have Madame Pomeroy, who created the first brut, or dry champagne, and really led the shift away from the sweeter styles. Previous to her doing that, most Champagne was very sweet, something you wouldn’t recognize today. So that was new. And then you have Lily Bollinger, who was very instrumental in the history of that house in the mid 20th century, including creating this recently disgorged concept in a new style of Champagne.  So I’m not sure that there’s another wine region and there might be, but I’m not sure there’s another one that when you go back and look at the history of it, you see so many women that involved.

Natalie MacLean 00:12:03 I call them the merry widows of mousse because they a lot of them were widows. They had they had lost their husbands to illness or the war. And so they carried on, rather than just handing the reins of the business over to a cousin or a brother or whatever. Now, your book explores the different types of Champagnes which we’ve touched on. Blanc de Blanc, white grape to make the white wine or Blanc de Noir work and so on. What style do you find the most intriguing?

Chris Ruhland 00:12:28 It’s hard for me to answer that because I find them all intriguing. So I have a really Catholic taste in Champagne, but if I had to say one, I would probably say Rosé because of what we talked about that. Rosé is not really considered a luxury product in the world of wine. For the most part, it’s considered a $10 $15 just pound it at the pool type product. Whereas in Champagne, Rosé Champagne is very often a very premium luxury product. So, for example, we talk about Cristal or Dom Perignon. The Rosé versions of those wines are more expensive than the non Rosés. So I think that if I had to take one, which I really don’t want to,  I would say Rosé.

Natalie MacLean 00:13:14 I’d agree with you. To a certain extent, they’re difficult to make. They’re more difficult to make. Do they comprise only like a 5% of total champagne production. I know it’s low.

Chris Ruhland 00:13:25 I don’t have the exact percentage in mind, but it is a very low percentage for sure.

Natalie MacLean 00:13:31 Okay. What was the significance of the Champagne riots in 1911?

Chris Ruhland 00:13:36 So just to say what they are, I mean, the Champagne riots involved really growers in the Marne Valley who were upset about two things. Well, one thing within a subset of that. What they’re really upset about is that grapes from, they believe that grapes from outside of Champagne were being used by the houses for their Champagne, cheaper grapes than the grapes sold by growers in Champagne. And there was this dispute, this also about whether the Aube, which is in southern part of Champagne,  whether it was really Champagne or not, whether that should be included. And, the outcome of all this was really the modern definition of what Champagne and what it is not. So, now the Aube is part of Champagne that’s established in Champagne delineated. And it’s part of the whole trend in the early part of the 20th century to delineate wine regions all over the world. In France, we know what the borders of the wine regions are, and this was part of that. And it also led to more cooperation, frankly, between growers and houses that we see today, where they really work together. And now that they don’t have differences of opinion, but not trying to kill one another anymore. So that’s good.

Natalie MacLean 00:14:53 Things have come a long way. Interesting. And you also discussed the impact of World Wars one and two on Champagne production. How did the region recover and what were the lasting effects on the industry?

Chris Ruhland 00:15:04 Recovery, which is pure resilience. When you think about World War One, it was fought in Champagne vineyards.

Natalie MacLean 00:15:10 Because it’s at the crossroads of Europe?  It is geographically, it’s been invaded and all sorts of times throughout history.

Chris Ruhland 00:15:18 World War One was particularly bad for Champagne. I mean,  literally fighting in the vineyards of Champagne. At the same time, the Tsars were deposed in Russia, and Tsarist Russia was a huge market for Champagne. So it was kind of a double whammy, but it was just pure resilience. After that, you just keep going. I mean, sometimes all you can do is just keep going. World War Two is a different situation. In that Champagne continued to be was produced, but it was produced under the over sight of the  Germans and a lot of wine went to Germany. So the last thing, in fact, I guess would be the sense of resilience, cooperation within the region. To some extent, the ends of both wars reinforce the idea of Champagne as a wine that’s valuable. And that’s part of celebrations.

Natalie MacLean 00:16:10 Right. Was it Napoleon, in victory we need it in or in victory we toast with it. In defeat. We need it. Either way, that’s you coming and going.

Chris Ruhland 00:16:19 Yeah, he’s credited with that. It’s not clear whether he said it, but it’s a good quote anyway.

Natalie MacLean 00:16:25 Another myth. When I was in Champagne, I was so impressed with their joie de vivre and even in the architecture and things that had been built after the wars, they just wanted to express that, as you say, resilience and exuberance for life. It was just really heartwarming to see that.

Chris Ruhland 00:16:43 Yeah, absolutely.

Natalie MacLean 00:16:44 You mentioned the magic of Champagne’s chalky soils, but also suggest it’s not as central as some people would believe. How does chalk contribute to Champagne’s qualities?

Chris Ruhland 00:16:56 Okay, so you’re asking my opinion. Of course. I’m the only one here. But, first of all, I just have to say that I definitely have a bias on the scale on the denier side of soil. Let’s put it that way. I’m not in full denial of soil, but I’m not on the far other side of of the cheerleaders for soil. And the reason is  that the things that are said about soils, Champagne soils, just some of these things we know just aren’t true. So there’s a lot of chalk in  Champagne that’s talked about. Chalk is very good for the vineyards in Champagne. I mean, it’s actually very good that there is chalk there because the chalk bedrock provides excellent drainage, which is very crucial. You get a lot of water and a cool, wet climate, but it’s also good for water retention, so the chalk retains enough moisture to sustain the vines during dry periods. So its not that chalk doesn’t do anything. It’s actually quite good. But remember, Champagne in those very same vineyards was making red and white still wines for hundreds of years and people didn’t say, oh, my wine tastes chalky, you know? And so this is where I have issues. You know, chalk doesn’t taste like anything. I don’t know if you ever tried to taste chalk, but it doesn’t have a taste. And if it did, I mean, the chalk isn’t pulled up by the vines into the grapes anyway. So when people talk about wine being chalky or that sort of thing, it’s just where I just get off the bus.

Natalie MacLean 00:18:24 I have to agree that it’s been overdone, the whole soil as part of terroir. I mean, plants are organic, they’re not sucking up minerals, but it could be a drainage issue. I don’t know is chalk limestone? Is that the white? Is the limestone fossilized? And that’s what we have over in England, why some of the Champagnois are going and planting over there. Because they’ve got the White Cliffs of Dover and Kent and wherever. They’re doing English sparkling.

Chris Ruhland 00:18:50 Right. But again in England, what you also have is  a very cold climate and we have a warming climate. So what’s also going on there is you have the perfect climatic conditions right now for sparkling wine. Again, it’s not just the soil. It’s the fact that the climate is perfect for it right now.

Natalie MacLean 00:19:10 Okay. You discussed the complexities of oxidative versus reductive styles of Champagne. Can you tell us the difference?

Chris Ruhland 00:19:19 So again, it’s something that’s best to experience. I do discuss it in the book. If you really want to understand the difference, take a bottle of Bollinger, take a bottle of Laurent-Perrier, and drink iboth and you will see the difference…

Natalie MacLean 00:19:33 Which is which?

Chris Ruhland 00:19:34 So Bollinger would be more on the oxidative side and Laurent-Perrier would be more on the non oxidative or reductive side you could say. I also suggest taking an apple and cutting it in half and smelling and tasting what  that apple smells like and then leaving it on the counter for a while. And notice that eventually those those fresh fruit notes become more like dried fruit, more like applesauce, more nutty versus this fresh, crisp, floral type of profile. That’s kind of what we’re talking about in the difference in styles.

Natalie MacLean 00:20:11 I love that comparison. That’s a great way to explain it. So we’ve talked about vintage and non vintage Champagne. So you also write about the importance of reserve wines. What are they and why don’t we talk about those more often.

Chris Ruhland 00:20:25 Well to answer the second thing, I mean why we don’t talk about reserve wines more often is probably because it’s just too geeky of a topic that nobody cares about it who drinks of wine.

Natalie MacLean 00:20:35 We do.

Chris Ruhland 00:20:36 Yeah. That’s right. We do. But I mean but that might be why they’re not talked about. But reserve wines are really what they say. I mean reserves, wines held back from a vintage year that aren’t used, that are stored. Historically they’re stored really to ensure that you can make wine in bad years. You have enough wine. But what they also do is provide this instant complexity and richness to a wine, to a Champagne that you can open today and essentially has some age on that wine. And there are some very good examples of this that I mentioned in the book, Charles Heidsieck Brut Reserve, for example.  I’ve been singing the praises of this Champagne for so long, but again, this is another. It used to be $40 Champagne. Now it’s $50 Champagne, but has a lot of reserve wines and older reserve wines. And you can tell when drinking that. The richness, the complexity to it. And you can open it, you don’t have to age it, just bring it home and open it. But that’s the idea.

Natalie MacLean 00:21:36 All right. Cool. You write about the aging potential of Champagne. What’s the oldest Champagne you’ve tasted?

Chris Ruhland 00:21:43 Well, what you’re really looking for is the spread between the time and when I drank it. But somewhere around. Let’s see  2014, 2015, I think I had 1970 Dom Perignon. And I’ve had a Ceylon that was older, which was pretty great. The thing about Champagne is that older Champagne is great, but you also have to be careful that it’s not too old because unlike, let’s say, to go to the opposite end of the spectrum with, say, Madeira, which can last forever, Champagne is really delicate and subject to oxidation. And you wait long enough, you’re going to get a wine that you don’t like. So there’s there’s some balance there that has to be had.

Natalie MacLean 00:22:27 And so were those mature Champagnes that you drank. Were they sort of just the nutty, kind of darker dried fruit characteristics in them.

Chris Ruhland 00:22:36 Yeah, sure. More nutty, more dried fruit, more savoury, even some umami or mushroom characteristics in them, which I really enjoy a lot better objectively, I suppose. But I mean, it’s something that I really enjoy. You just get more complexity. Now you do lose some bubbles. And so that’s one thing to be aware of. And again, if you were to hold on to a bottle of Champagne long enough, you could lose all the bubbles. I prefer bubbles in my Champagne, so there’s always some danger. But if your Champagne is old enough, it’ll have fewer bubbles.

Natalie MacLean 00:23:12 Did the bubbles get smaller as they age?

Chris Ruhland 00:23:15 I don’t think the bubbles get smaller. They just simply get fewer. Because what you have is a cork that’s porous. So you’re getting some oxygen in and you’re getting some carbon dioxide out. And that is a process. Now it’s a very slow process. And also you have inconsistency in cork, too. That’s the other thing. That is, if you open enough bottles of Champagne, you will see that some corks hold up better than others for whatever reason. I mean, it’s a natural product and so it’s variable. And so that’s another issue. It’s very disappointing to open a bottle of Champagne you’ve held for a long time, and you open the cork and it just kind of slides out very easily. And it’s very thin at this point. And you realize there’s no bubbles and the wine is very oxidized. That’s not fun.

Natalie MacLean 00:24:06 That’s not fun at all. I’ve heard it’s a myth, though, that the size of the bubbles determines the quality of the Champagne. I mean, to a certain extent, if you’ve got the big whatever they call them, frog’s eyes bubbles from injected carbonation, which is a totally different way of making bubbly. But I’ve heard it’s really a myth that when it’s traditional method Champagne, if your bubbles are smaller, the champagne is better. Is that true or not?

Chris Ruhland 00:24:29  I don’t think it’s true, and I don’t think there’s any evidence for that. There is something to the traditional method of making sparkling wine, which does seem to make a pretty softer mousse as opposed to what you’re talking about with like bigger, like a more rough feeling texture. So there’s that. But the bubbles themselves, I just don’t think there’s enough that we know about little differences in the size of bubbles that would make a difference.

Natalie MacLean 00:24:59 Right. Yeah. There is a researcher who studies bubbles at the University of Champagne. That is, his life’s work is the bubbles. But, I think it is a myth about the size. But,  it can’t have that much impact on the quality. What’s your opinion on how bottle size affects aging of Champagne? Because we know the names are different. I always get confused.

Natalie MacLean 00:25:20 You start off with a regular size 750ml. You go to the Magnum, which is two of the regular bottles, and then it goes up from there with all sorts of religious names like Nebuchadnezzar and whatever that are different from still. But do you think for those very large format bottles that they age more slowly?

Chris Ruhland 00:25:37 For all wine, including Champagne, they should. There’s a greater ratio of wine to head space in a larger bottle, so it should age more slowly.

Natalie MacLean 00:25:48 So the amount of oxygen at the top is less compared to the volume of liquid?

Chris Ruhland 00:25:53 So they should and I think and I’ve never tested this extensively in Champagne, but I’ve read accounts of people who have who’ve opened a 750 ml and a Magnum that are of a certain age and noticed  a certain freshness in the Magnum that they didn’t see in the 750. So that makes sense. Although, again, I can’t say that I’ve tested that myself. But going back to the cork, the cork is still going to be the cork. And so you still have to be somewhat careful there in terms of how old the cork is. But after that I just think Magnums are just so awesome. I just think when you have a Magnum and open up a Magnum at a party, who doesn’t get excited about that?

Natalie MacLean 00:26:37 No. The party begins when you open that Magnum.

Chris Ruhland 00:26:39 Exactly. So I love Magnum. When I buy Magnum, it’s not so much because I’m thinking, oh, I’m going to hold on to this bottle of Champagne for a longer period of time because it’s a Magnum then a 750. I buy it because I think one day I’m just going to have this super cool party in my house, and I’m going to open this and it’s going to be really cool. So that’s I think that’s the main thing about Magnums.

Natalie MacLean 00:27:06 Absolutely. And you write about dosage. We’re talking about that and its role in Champagne. Can you explain what dosage is and then compare it to zero dosage Champagnes.

Chris Ruhland 00:27:17 So the dosage is an amount of sugar that is added to a bottle of Champagne as part of the topping up of the wine at the very end of the process, right before the bottle gets its cork.

Natalie MacLean 00:27:30 And is it sugar or is it brandy or grape spirit, or is it any of that?

Chris Ruhland 00:27:35  It could be all. It could be a number of things. But what matters. I mean, ultimately what matters is the sugar. In other words, sugar is simply a component of a lot of different substances. But what matters is the sugar itself, because sugar makes things sweeter, right And it also creates this Maillard effect.

Natalie MacLean 00:27:56 Millard  effect.

Chris Ruhland 00:27:57 So it’s like this browning effect where like if you you see it when you when you cook sometimes, or you’ll see, this is why sugar is in some things, some items that you wouldn’t think are sweet, like ketchup for example, will often contain sugar. It is to create this balance and also to create this like toasty aspect, toasty profile. But the main thing about dosage that’s really important is that this is a very small amount of sugar. When a Champagne is intentionally made sweet, that’s one thing. We don’t get a lot of sweet Champagnes anymore, and I don’t really drink them. So he wants to make a Champagne sweet. then yes you add a lot of sugar. But we’re talking about dry Champagnes where a very small amount is added. A certain amount of sugar is added simply to provide balance, because Champagne is a very high acid wine, and also to add a little bit of richness to balance out that acidity. and if the winemaker did a good job, you shouldn’t notice the sugar. Zero dosage or brut nature Champagnes, they have no added sugar. So at that final step, no sugar is put in. And I talk about some of these in the book, some that are very good. But this is where you run the issues, because some zero dosage Champagnes are not very good. And the reason is they lack sugar. There’s something missing in that balance. And so I’m not against zero dosage Champagnes by any means. There are some outstanding ones, but in those cases it’s because the fruit is so ripe and the flavours are so bright that you don’t need any sugar at all. And the right number isn’t 2 grams per litre or 3 grams or one. The right number happens to be zero in that case.

Natalie MacLean 00:29:47 Wow. Okay. So the second fermentation happens inside the bottle for Champagne. So when they put the dosage in it’s not going to restart the whole fermentation again. I mean yeast is in there and it gobbles up.  Sugar is yeast food. And then you get more bubbles. But with the dosage do they risk at all restarting the fermentation inside the bottle again?

Chris Ruhland 00:30:11 So it’s two separate steps. So in the second fermentation you’re adding sugar, yeast and yeast nutrients and an a riddling agent. I mean you’re intentionally trying to create a second fermentation. And then what you’re going to do is you’re going to disgorge. We talked about that a little bit.

Chris Ruhland 00:30:28 I think you’re going to get rid of the dead yeast cells and at this stage you’re not putting any yeast in the bottle. This is all about topping up the wine, because in this disgorgement process you’re going to lose a little wine. So you’re topping up the wine. In the wine, you’re including a little sugar. And really, honestly, you’ve got a mixture that is your what’s called a liquor d’expedition. But no, you’re not putting yeast, so you’re not creating a second fermentation. If you did, you would then get dead cells at the bottom. You get cloudy Champagne, which would not be palatable to most consumers. I don’t think, at this point.

Natalie MacLean 00:31:07 Yeah. So we’re assuming all the yeast died. Okay. Rosé, Billie Carte, Sam and I, well, I never say it. Say it again. I’ve always said it wrong. Incorrectly.

Chris Ruhland 00:31:18 I have neighbours who call it Billie Cart.

Natalie MacLean 00:31:20 Bille-Cart Salmon.

Chris Ruhland 00:31:21 But yeah, I think Bille-Cart Salmon would be my very best French pronunciation, but I’m sure somebody can correct me on that.

Natalie MacLean 00:31:28 Have you discovered anything new that you’d add to an updated edition of the book?

Chris Ruhland 00:31:33 No, because there isn’t going to be a second edition of this book. It was never intended again to be a catalog of Champagne. It’s really intended to be a guide for the reader to explore Champagne on their own terms, and to be a better Champagne drinker by the time they get to the end of the book. And I think it’s still served that purpose. So if I ever do another book, it won’t be this one.

Natalie MacLean 00:32:00 And if someone’s planning a trip to Champagne, do you have a couple tips on getting the most out of your visit to the region?

Chris Ruhland 00:32:06 Sure. Yeah. So it was a couple things. First of all, if you’re going to go to Champagne, try to schedule visits at different types of producers, right. So it’s very easy to get into Moet and take these grand tours that are really interesting and fun, and that’s great. But you’re going to see this very corporate side of Champagne. But then  try to get some visits at smaller producers too and see how they produce Champagne. You just get different experiences. And I think that’s something that everybody should do. I would say the second thing is when you go out to eat, try to drink Champagne at the restaurants and drink it through the meal. I mean, do try to experience what it’s like in this very safe environment to have Champagne with beef. Or if you don’t like, well, something else, whatever. It’s just  fun to just try different types of Champagne. There’s just so much variety there. I mean, here in the US we have whatever is imported here, which is a small fraction of what you can buy in Champagne. So I just think it’s fun to try different things while you’re there.

Natalie MacLean 00:33:19 Absolutely. Wow. I don’t know if you had a couple wines there that you wanted to mention. If not, that’s okay, because I can’t believe how the time has flown..

Chris Ruhland 00:33:28 No champagne is going to go to waste in this house anyway. I’m going save these.  So one is. This is Lanson Black label.

Natalie MacLean 00:33:40 Lanson. Okay. Black Label Lanson

Chris Ruhland 00:33:43 This is one of my top recommendations.  It’s one of my two top recommendations if you want to spend $45, let’s say, and get an outstanding value for your money. Lanson Black Label and Charles Heidsieck Brut Reserve, which I think I mentioned earlier because the richness, the depth, the complexity that you’ll get in this $45 bottle champagne. You’d otherwise have to spend twice that much. So I love this wine. Another one that is widely available, but that’s more expensive. Now we’re talking more like $80, unfortunately. And this is. Veuve Clicqout

Natalie MacLean 00:34:23 Oh. Veuve Clicquot Rosé. Nice.

Chris Ruhland 00:34:26 Yeah. I’m not saying that this is the very best Rosé,  but it is what Rosé Champagne is supposed to be. Floral and fruity and soft, silky, but also just understated and not over the top. It’s pretty and long. So this is again $80 $85. I hate that it costs that much now, but I think this is an also a great wine to start with.

Natalie MacLean 00:34:49 Lovely. Wow. Okay, well, I’m glad we gave you an excuse to open them. Not that you needed that. So the book is wonderful, Press for Champagne. Is there anything that we haven’t mentioned, Chris, that you’d like to mention before we get to where we can find your book and you online?

Chris Ruhland 00:35:07 I think the only thing I would say is that I just fundamentally believe that wine only matters in its ability for a wine drinker to have this subjective experience. So we can read about champagne. We can talk about Champagne. But I think so much of wine culture today treats wine like it’s an object, like it’s a piece of art. And when you read about it all, we hear about the properties of the wine and and who made it and where it was grown, etc. but I think the best thing about wine is just exploring it on your own terms and figuring out what you can learn, and taking that journey for yourself.  I don’t see what else matters, honestly, in wine. And so whether you read my book or don’t read my book doesn’t make a whole lot of difference at this point, I just think I would just encourage everybody to just go and buy Champagne, see what you think, have some, and then try something else and see how it’s different and then go from there.

Natalie MacLean 00:36:07 That’s great advice. Really great advice. And where can we find you and the book online?

Chris Ruhland 00:36:12 The book it’s easiest to find it on Amazon. If you type Press for Champagne book you will find on Amazon. And then I have a website. I’m at  CS Rowland. So csruhland.com.

Natalie MacLean 00:36:28 Excellent. We’ll put both in the show notes so that people can find those links easily. I want to say thank you so much. This has been wonderful. It’s just flown. And I’ve learned a number of things about champagne today that I didn’t know. And I know our listeners will will have enjoyed the chat as well.

Chris Ruhland 00:36:44 Yeah. Thanks, Natalie.

Natalie MacLean 00:36:46 All right. Cheers.

Chris Ruhland 00:36:47 Cheers.

Natalie MacLean 00:36:53 Well, there you have it. I hope you enjoyed our chat with Chris. Here are my takeaways. Should you drink Champagne from a white wine glass or a flute? At last, the raging debate ends. I’m all for the white wine glass, Chris says, but I don’t like the flutes because you can’t smell the wine. And I have to agree with him. He can’t swirl it either. They are too thin to sense the aromas from wine. Chris says he uses a tulip shaped glass and if you go to the Champagne region, you’ll see those in use everywhere. Chris says when he goes to a restaurant and he thinks they might use a flute, he asks right away if they can have white wine glasses, and a lot of times the sommelier will say, oh yeah, that’s how I enjoy it too.

Natalie MacLean 00:37:36 Number two, what is the ideal temperature range for serving champagne? Chris says that the temperature affects both the texture of the wine and the bubbles, and of course, the taste. You wouldn’t want it colder than it gets in your fridge. And you certainly don’t put it in the freezer, because at 12.5% alcohol, it will freeze eventually. If you have it in your fridge and you pour it into a glass, it’s going to start warming up immediately. So the point is to start with a cold temperature.

Natalie MacLean 00:37:56 And number three, what might surprise you about the technical side of Champagne? Chris says that most people are surprised at how much work goes into making a bottle of Champagne. Most people think making wine is easy, right? We’ve been doing it for thousands of years. You need grapes. you put it in a vessel and pretty soon you’ve got wine. But Champagne is very much a human made product in that it requires a lot of separate steps done by hand. Once you appreciate that and you hold a bottle of Champagne and think wo, this wine has been through a lot to create it. In the show notes, you’ll find the full transcript of my conversation with Chris, links to his website, and book the video versions of these conversations on Facebook and YouTube live, and where you can order my book online now, no matter where you live.

Natalie MacLean 00:38:50 If you missed episode 56, go back and take a listen. I chat about Champagne with the Restaurant Guys, Mark Pascal and Francis Schott who host their own radio show. I’ll share a short clip with you now to whet your appetite.

Restaurant Guys 00:39:04 So you go into a restaurant, you sit down. There’s a daunting wine list. It’s a tome. What do you recommend?

Natalie MacLean 00:39:09 First of all, I look at what kind of joint am I in.  Is this a classy place that has some staff who are going to be wine knowledgeable. Could be a sommelier. Could be the wine dude. But if there’s somebody there that I think really does know the list, I’m going to ask that person. The person who works in the restaurant always knows his or her wine list better than I do, because chances are they’ve tasted the wines on the list. Let’s hope they have. And then if there’s really no one in sight or no one’s coming forward in terms of who knows the list, I’m going to look for regions I may personally be familiar with or what is this restaurant specializing in. If it’s an Italian restaurant, I’m going to look at the Italian list because it’s going to match the food most likely. But also, let’s hope they have a special passion for the wines from that country. So I’ll narrow it down further to that. And then of course, I’ll stay within my price range and then I’ll hope for the best.

Natalie MacLean 00:40:09 You won’t want to miss next week when we chat with Hailey Bohlam, host of the podcast Cork & Fizz Guide to Wine, who will join us from her home in Seattle. If you liked this episode or learned even one thing from it, please email or tell a friend about the podcast this week, especially someone you know who’d be interested in learning more about the fascinating history and evolution of Champagne. It’s easy to find my podcast. Just tell them to search for Natalie MacLean Wine on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, their favourite podcast app, or they can listen to the show on my website at nataliemaclean.com/podcast. Email me if you have a sip, tip question, if you’d like to win one of three copies of Chris’s book, or if you’ve read my book or listening to it, I’d love to hear your thoughts about this episode.

Natalie MacLean 00:40:56 Were you surprised about how Champagne is made? Do you have a favourite Champagne? Email me at [email protected]. In the show notes, you’ll also find a link to take a free online food and wine pairing class with me called The Five Food and Wine Pairing Mistakes That Can Ruin Your Dinner and How to Fix Them Forever at nataliemaclean.com/ class. And that is all in the show notes at natalie maclean.com/318. Thank you for taking the time to join me here. I hope something great is in your glass this week, perhaps a lovely glass of Rosé Champagne to welcome 2025. You don’t want to miss one juicy episode of this podcast, especially the secret full bodied bonus episodes that I don’t announce on social media. So subscribe for free now at nataliemaclean.com/subscribe. Meet me here next week. Cheers.

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