Piemonte Sparkling Wines, Roero Nebbiolo and Visiting Alba with David Way

Natalie MacLean
Dec18th

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Introduction

In northern Italy,  Alba, Barolo and Barbaresco have become wine tourist destinations. How can you make the most of your visit to these regions in Piemonte? Why should you try a Nebbiolo wine from Roero? Why is there so much excitement about the sparkling wines of Piemonte now?

In this episode of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, I’m chatting with David Way, author of the terrific book The Wines of Piemonte.

You can find the wines we discussed here.

 

Giveaway

Two of you will win a copy of his terrific new book, The Wines of Piemonte.

 

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To qualify, all you have to do is email me at [email protected] and let me know that you’ve posted a review of the podcast.

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Join the live-stream video of this conversation on Wednesday at 7 pm eastern on Instagram Live Video, Facebook Live Video or YouTube Live Video.

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Highlights

  • What funny coincidence did David experience when trying to find Albino Rocca’s winery back in the days before Google Maps?
  • What should you know about Gaja and the Barbaresco cooperative?
  • Why did David have to wait outside a Barbaresco winery for an hour past his appointment without any explanation?
  • How does Moscato d’Asti compare to Champagne, and why is it often undervalued?
  • What are the differences between how Moscato d’Asti and Prosecco are produced?
  • What is the history of sparkling wine production in Piemonte, including the pioneering work of Carlo Gancia?
  • What can you expect from the red sparkling wines of Piemonte?
  • How much white wine is made in Piemonte and which grape varieties are most common?
  • Why should you try a Nebbiolo from Roero and what characteristics can you anticipate?
  • Which English wine writer would David love to share a bottle of wine with?
  • How can you plan a fascinating wine trip to Piemonte?

 

Key Takeaways

  • How can you make the most of your visit to these regions in Piemonte?
    •  David notes that Alba, Barolo and Barbaresco have beautiful landscapes, amazing wines, and incredible cuisine with lots of lovely small Michelin-starred restaurants. There are also boutique hotels that are relatively inexpensive. While it’s easy just to stay in the Lange, David advises venturing outside this region and tasting great Barbera wines or the white Colle Tortonese, which is an hour and a half away.
  • Why should you try a Nebbiolo wine from Roero?
    • David explains that Alba is the center of the wine trade in Piemonte. Barolo is 20 minutes in one direction, Barbaresco is 20 minutes in the other. Then there is a region called Roero, which is 20 minutes north of Alba. Roero is well known for its white wine. What people don’t know about Roero, is that it’s also an excellent source of Nebbiolo wines, at much lower prices. Barolo and Barbaresco have become quite expensive wines because they’re brand names. However, if you go to a Roero, you are going to get a really great wine at a really good price.
  • Why is there so much excitement about the sparkling wines of Piemonte now?
    • David says that Piemonte has both tank method and traditional method sparkling wines. It was one of the biggest surprises in doing the research for the book. Traditional method sparkling wine made in the bottle is typical of two areas outside Piemonte, Franciacorta and Trentodoc. But Piemonte is actually the pioneer of that style. So long before Franciacorta and Trentadoc were created, Carlo Gancia, took himself off to Champagne and learned how to make traditional method sparkling wine in a bottle. He came back and made traditional method sparkling wine and called it Italian champagne and created the traditional method in Italy. It fell out of fashion and then after the Second World War, with the invention of inexpensive stainless steel and tanks it regained popularity. Piemonte made a massive success of Moscato d’Asti and Asti, the two very similar sparkling wines made with the same grape variety, made in a tank. In 2002, sparkling wine houses in Piemonte launched a traditional method sparkling wine called Alta Langa. It’s been a significant success in a relatively short time.

 

Start The Conversation: Click Below to Share These Wine Tips

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The really exciting thing about Piemonte is that it has both styles of sparkling wine: the tank method and the traditional method. - David Way David Way Click to tweet

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Alba is the center of the wine trade in Piemonte. - David Way David Way Click to tweet

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Alba, Barolo and Barbaresco have become real wine tourist destinations. - David Way David Way Click to tweet

 

About David Way

David Way initially specialized in the wines of the Tuscan Maremma before broadening his interests to the rest of Italy and beyond. His articles are published on his website, www.winefriend.org. He works as Senior Researcher on the five textbooks for the WSET Level 4 Diploma in Wines.

In his own name, David wrote The Wines of Piemonte (Classic Wine Library, 2023). Substantial coverage is, of course, given to Barolo and Barbaresco. However, for the first time, all 60 denominations of the region are covered in detail and many native grape varieties. Additional chapters recount the history and current state of sparkling wine in the region, both tank method and traditional method. As a result, the book gives an unparalleled coverage of one of Italy’s most important regions and includes 200 producer profiles. The book was honoured by the OIV at its award ceremony in Lisbon in 2024.

 

Bonus Interview – Jo Penn

Highlights

  • How can you legally protect yourself as a writer?
  • What can writers do to engage readers and especially book clubs?
  • What are some of my multiple streams of income as a writer?

 

About Jo Penn

Jo Penn is an award-winning New York Times and USA Today bestselling author of horror, thrillers, dark fantasy, crime, and travel memoirs, as well as short stories. She’s also an award-winning podcaster. She has a Master’s in Theology from the University of Oxford. Her latest novel is Blood Vintage, a folk horror story set in an English vineyard.

 

Resources

 

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  • The new audio edition of Red, White and Drunk All Over: A Wine-Soaked Journey from Grape to Glass is now available on Amazon.ca, Amazon.com and other country-specific Amazon sites; iTunes.ca, iTunes.com and other country-specific iTunes sites; Audible.ca and Audible.com.

 

Transcript

Natalie MacLean 00:00:00 In northern Italy. Alba, Barolo and Barbaresco have become wine tourist destinations. How can you make the most of your visit to these regions in Piedmont? Why should you try a Nebbiolo wine from Roro? And why is there so much excitement about sparkling wines in Piemonte? Now, in today’s episode, you’ll hear the stories and tips that answer those questions in part two of our chat with David Wei, author of the terrific book The Wines of Piedmont. You don’t have to have listened to part one from last week first, but if you missed it, go back and have a listen after you finish this one. By the end of our conversation, you’ll also discover the funny coincidence David experienced when trying to find Albino Rocco’s Winery back in the days before Google Maps. What you should know about Gaia Wines and the Barbaresco cooperative, how Moscato compares to Champagne and why it’s often undervalued. The differences between how Moscato, Dosti and Prosecco are produced. What you can expect from red sparkling wines of Piemonte, and how much white wine is made in Piemonte, and which grape varieties are most common.

Natalie MacLean 00:01:24 Do you have a thirst to learn about wine? Do you love stories about wonderfully obsessive people, hauntingly beautiful places, and amusingly awkward social situations? Well, that’s the blend here on the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast. I’m your host, Natalie MacLean, and each week I share with you unfiltered conversations with celebrities in the wine world, as well as confessions from my own tipsy journey as I write my third book on this subject. I’m so glad you’re here. Now pass me that bottle, please, and let’s get started. Welcome to episode 316. Two of you will win a copy of David’s fabulous book, The Wines of Piemonte. All you have to do is email me and let me know that you’d like to win. I’ll choose two people randomly from those who contact me at Nathalie at Natalie MacLean. Com it doesn’t matter where you live. I also still have one copy left of the following books to give away. Inspirational memoirs and memories of the women who shaped Ontario’s grape and Wine Industry, by Jennifer Willam and Wine Bites 64.

Natalie MacLean 00:02:39 Simple nibbles the pair perfectly with wine by Barbara Scott Goodman. In other bookish news, if you’re reading the paperback or e-book or listening to the audiobook of my memoir wine, which on fire rising from the ashes of divorce, defamation and Drinking too much, I’d love to hear from you at Nathalie and Natalie MacLean dot com. If you’d like to give this book as a holiday gift, I’d be happy to send you personally signed booklets, both for yourself and for the copies you give as gifts. I’ll put a link in the show notes to all retailers worldwide at Natalie MacLean. Com forward slash 316. The paperback usually arrives within a day or two of ordering. The e-book and audiobook are instantly available. At the end of today’s episode, I’m also including a bonus interview I did with Japan on her podcast, The Creative Pen. This is part two of our conversation, and we explore how writers engage readers, especially through book clubs, how writers protect themselves legally, and how you can earn a living as a writer.

Natalie MacLean 00:03:47 As I said, this is gravy, not the main meal, so feel free to keep listening if you’re hungry or thirsty for more or not. Okay, on with the show. You have a story about asking a man in a local bar in Barbaresco. When you were there. How to find an albino. Albino? Yeah. Yeah. Winery back in the day before Google Maps. Yes.

David Way 00:04:15 Absolutely. I was a wine blogger then. I wasn’t a professional or anything, and I had decided to visit Barbaresco and had a lovely time. And as you say. Well, I mean, first of all, the thing to know is that, you know, in rural life, lots of people have the same surname. There are lots of rockers, for example, in Barbaresco. Yeah, exactly. So I can vividly remember going to a village in the Prosecco hills and saying, can you tell me how to get to X winery? And that lady very kindly said back to me, we’re all called X in this village.

David Way 00:04:48 So you’ll.

David Way 00:04:49 Have to be a bit more specific. So anyway, I went into the bar to ask how to get to this winery. spoke to a guy standing at the bar and said to them, how do I get to the winery? I’ll be in a rocker. He said, oh, it’s fine. It’s no distance at all from here. Just go down the road, turn left, you’ll see the winery on your left, etc. so I think I must have stopped and had a cup of coffee or something. It was obviously a bit early, so I then went to the winery at the appointed time and introduced myself, only to discover that the person I’d met in the bar was from the winery.

David Way 00:05:20 Oh that’s great.

David Way 00:05:22 So I’d actually met a member of the of the rocker family in the winery. Yes, in the bar. And then met him again.

Natalie MacLean 00:05:29 Love it. Sounds like one of those rural films where the one guy is doing everything in the village. He’s the winemaker, he’s the postmaster or whatever, that.

Natalie MacLean 00:05:39 That’s great. And then you have another story related to Barbaresco. While we’re at it, guy, who’s a famous Italian winemaker and the Barbaresco cooperative from two generations of how impossible it was to keep up with the sheer physical energy and vitality of Angelo Gaia and his dad. What was that?

David Way 00:05:59 So this was amazing. I since come to know the director of the cooperative. That prodotti del Barbaresco is called really great winery, and one that doesn’t break the bank in quite the same way that Gaia does. Barbaresco is a tiny village, and literally the Gaia winery is about 100 yards from the predatory. They are both on the main street in the village. Okay, and there is a very strong connection between the two, which I only learnt about recently when I was doing the research for the book. So the Vaca family, the current one is Elder Vaca is is the director of the property and his dad was also the director and they both worked with the two generations of the Gaia’s. I mean, Angela Gaia was is most extraordinary.

David Way 00:06:49 I’ve seen him in the state. He’s in his 80s now. I’ve seen him at big events in the States recently. You know, nothing is going to stop this guy now.

Natalie MacLean 00:06:58 He’s an energy. Like, even before I started writing about wine, we did a tour of Italy and we went into Gaia and he talked to our group and he was just a dynamo. It’s like, I can’t believe you have the time and energy for a tourist bus anyway.

David Way 00:07:11 Yeah, yeah.

David Way 00:07:12 No. So Elder Vaca told me that his dad, as a younger man, had gone to the States with Angelo, Gaia’s dad, and had really struggled to get physically to keep up with him. He was just, you know, every set of stairs there was, he would run up them. He would fit in, you know, crazy number of appointments in the day. And although he was a younger man, he really struggled to keep up with him. And of course, Angela Gaia also had this reputation that, you know, like you just say, if a restaurant in Germany said, well, we’d like to try your wines, he would literally jump in the car, put the wines in the back of the car, drive up to Germany, show them in the restaurant, and then come back to Barbaresco.

David Way 00:07:52 He was just I mean, it is a major brand for a reason. The wines are very, very good. But the family have been absolutely tireless, amazing promoters of their wines. I can remember again years ago, going to a tasting in London and being totally charmed by Angela Gaia. He is just so good at his job, both in terms of supervising the winery and in terms of promoting the wines. I’ve been there recently, and as you probably know, the next generation is now in day to day charge and runs the winery. So I, I said to I think it was Gaia. Gaia, his daughter. I said, well, you know, it’s a complicated business, isn’t it? Running a winery. And, you know, you have these huge strategic decisions to make and who in the end makes the decisions about it. And she just laughed and said, of course, my dad.

Natalie MacLean 00:08:46 He’s still in there.

David Way 00:08:48 He’s still in there.

David Way 00:08:49 So yeah, they are a remarkable family.

Natalie MacLean 00:08:52 Absolutely. Remind me a bit of the antiquaries as well, but they’re, of course, in Tuscany. Yeah. And was there a time when you were made to wait an hour outside a winery which had been booked without any explanation, something like along that lines?

David Way 00:09:06 Yes. So again.

David Way 00:09:07 Funny, all these stories happened to be in Barbaresco. Strange things do happen in other places.

David Way 00:09:11 Let me show you.

David Way 00:09:13 But yes, of course, right in the book you have to be very disciplined. You know, I had to visit at least four wineries a day, so you had to keep time. You knew exactly that you were going to be somewhere at 9:00, somewhere else at 11:00. Then, of course, Italians love lunch as I do, so that’s good. And then you’d fit in two winery visits in the afternoon, and you’d finish, and you’d get back to your hotel at 7:00 or something. And these are their long and fascinating days. So I think this must have been an 11:00 appointment.

David Way 00:09:42 And we turned up at this Giuseppe Cortez. I’m not going to tell you who the wine person was, but I will tell you which the winery was. Giuseppe Cortez, a very important Barbaresco producer. And rang the doorbell is exactly the right moment. And the guy came out and said, very nice to see you. Could you just wait outside for a bit because we’re not quite ready. So I said, yeah, of course, no problem. So Janet was with me. It wasn’t a huge hardship. It was a beautiful I think it was like an early autumn day looking out across the vineyards of Barbaresco. It’s gorgeous. And then, you know, ten minutes passed and a quarter of an hour passed. And we’ve been to this is a bit strange. And then half an hour passed. And then in the end, an hour passed and then somebody scooted out. I didn’t see who it was because the guy from the winery said, do you recognise who that was? So I said, no, I didn’t.

David Way 00:10:32 I didn’t really see his face. And he said, oh, it’s X. I said, oh, okay, I understand.

Natalie MacLean 00:10:39 It was a wine critic.

David Way 00:10:40 It was a wine critic, very important wine critic. And of course, important wine critics are really important to this business. Really important. So I totally understood. And apparently he had been late. so the whole thing. And of course that happens. Somebody else forgets you’ve got an appointment, they turn up half an hour late, blah blah, blah, etc., etc. so, you know, this happens in a full life and it keeps us humble. It reminds us that we’re not the most important person in the world.

Natalie MacLean 00:11:07 There’s always a bigger fish.

David Way 00:11:08 There’s always a bigger fish. And you know, we had a perfectly good tasting and we just had slightly less time for lunch.

Natalie MacLean 00:11:15 Oh, well, the hardships, I tell you, the suffering I know. Let’s get on to some of the sparkling wines because they don’t get nearly enough focus.

Natalie MacLean 00:11:27 But Moscato Dosti, which I think of as a floral, lightly effervescent sparkling wine, often just has about 5.5% alcohol, is also part of Piemonte. Why has it been traditionally overshadowed or undervalued? I think compared to the barrels and Barbaresco is.

David Way 00:11:46 I think that’s a really interesting question because first of all, I think it’s an absolutely delightful wine. I think it’s beautifully aromatic. Somehow the sweetness works with it. They are pretty much always sweet. And as you say, Moscato dusty in particular is low fizz. So, you know, it’s not particularly aggressive on the fizz front. And, you know, if you want something to go with a nice slice of cake or a fruity dessert, perfect and low alcohol. You know, we don’t drink as much sweet wine as we used to, because often we’re driving and you probably need to worry about your alcohol intake. And therefore a glass of Moscato can be exactly the right thing as an end of a meal. I think there are two problems. I think one is that people disregard it because it’s not made in the traditional method ie in a bottle like champagne is made.

David Way 00:12:32 So people tend to compare it with champagne or champagne lookalikes and say, oh well, those are the important wines and the tank method, which is how you make Moscato is inferior. I would disagree with that because actually I think it is. She’s probably another English expression. It’s horses for courses. Okay.

David Way 00:12:53 Okay.

David Way 00:12:54 So if you have a fully aromatic grape variety like Moscato and you want to express that in the glass, then the tank method is absolutely ideal. It is the perfect way of making wine because you don’t lose any of those fruit aromas, the floral and fruit aromas. So I think the tank method is ideal. It’s not like champagne. It’s not as complex as champagne, I would grant you that. It’s just different. That’s one big problem. The other one is simply that it’s not a wine that you keep an aged for 20 years, so it’s not an investor wine.

Natalie MacLean 00:13:28 So it can’t be serious or good. By implication.

David Way 00:13:31 The implication is that it can’t be so good, which I think is.

David Way 00:13:34 Ridiculous.

David Way 00:13:35 You know, because we need wine, so many different wines or different things that we can enjoy wines for so many different reasons. And to be honest a lot of people who are not, you know, deeply into this wine game would find Barolo quite a challenge to start with. They would just think, this is truly weird. What are these flavors? Why is this wine so acidic? Why is it so tannic? Whereas you give somebody a glass of Moscato, they’ll actually love it. a few years ago, at the set where I work, I put on a sort of technical session about Asti and Moscato. Dusty and I put out a general invitation to the company to say, you know, anybody can come along. You don’t have to be a wine specialist or whatever. And I thought, like Ted, people would turn up. In fact, 25 people turned up, which was amazing. And all sorts of people who just love Asti and are not wine geeks. So that’s really interesting.

David Way 00:14:32 That obviously appeals to a range of people, and I think people can be overly snobbish about Moscato.

Natalie MacLean 00:14:39 Dusty people could be terribly snobbish about a lot of things in wine, but how would you compare Moscato to Prosecco, both in the method in which it’s made and then the final taste profile?

David Way 00:14:51 The second one is, is it? The second point is easier than the first. So the taste profile is is very different because Prosecco is normally semi aromatic. It’s not fully aromatic in the way that Moscato is. Moscato should jump out of the glass at you, that the aromas should really be such freshness and really assertive in a way that Prosecco is very pleasant. I like prosecco as well. I’m not dissing prosecco, but it’s not as fully aromatic as Moscato. The technical point is that Prosecco is made in a two stage process. So you make a dry wine first and then you add sugar, put it back into a tank and get the bubbles. By doing that, Asti and Moscato are made only from the sugar that is already in the grape grapes.

David Way 00:15:37 Okay, okay.

David Way 00:15:39 So you never get to the dry stage. You interrupt the fermentation at exactly the right pressure point sugar and alcohol for the wine that you desire. So it’s sort of like an interrupted fermentation. It’s technically a bit more demanding, though. Once people have learned to do it, they can do it. Because we have plenty of chemistry. We can measure pressure, we can measure sugar, all those things. Easy. They can do the maths. So they are very similar. They’re both made in a tank, but one is made by interrupting the fermentation. And as I say, all the sugar, all the sweetness in Moscato came from the original grapes.

Natalie MacLean 00:16:15 Yes. And therefore Prosecco, because it’s fermented to dryness first has double or more the alcohol. So it’ll be 1213. Well, probably not 13, but at least.

David Way 00:16:25 12.5 B 11.5.

David Way 00:16:26 To 12.

David Way 00:16:27 11.5.

Natalie MacLean 00:16:27 Okay. Right. So it’s definitely higher. And then of course just on that continuum, champagne and other traditionally made sparkling wines, that second fermentation to get the bubbles happens in the bottle.

Natalie MacLean 00:16:40 The dose or the sugar is added in the bottle trapped there. And that’s where you get the carbon as opposed to in the tank.

David Way 00:16:48 Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

David Way 00:16:49 So to answer your original question about sparkling wine, the really exciting thing about Piemonte is that it has both styles. It has both tank method and traditional method. And you kind of said in the introduction that I wrote a chapter about the history of sparkling wine in Pyrmont, and that was one of the biggest surprises, really, in doing the research is that I discovered that so people who know their Italian wine will know that traditional method sparkling wine I made in the bottle, as you just explained, is typical of two areas the French Quarter and Trento Doc. And those are the famous ones. Those are the ones that are, you will see in the Americas that you will find in most restaurants in Italy. But puberty is actually the pioneer of that style. So long before French Quarter and Trento 20 doc were created. A guy called Kala Ganesha, when he was 19 took himself off to champagne.

David Way 00:17:48 As one does, and learnt how to make traditional methods sparkling wine in a bottle. And he came back and founded the famous. There’s a large company called Ganesha which makes sparkling wine of various sorts in Piemonte. And of course, he came back. And of course he had an immediate problem because he wanted to copy what he’d found in champagne. But of course, there was no Pinot noir or Chardonnay in the vineyards of Piemonte. So he did some experiments and tried it with Moscato. And you can taste wines like that today. I do think it’s a really good use of Moscato for the reasons we’ve already explained. It’s better to keep the aromatics rather than because whenever you do something in a winery, you you might add something, but you often take something away. So, you know, if you make champagne, you will lose some of the fresh fruit because you have all those other interesting pastry hazelnut not notes the tertiary notes which come through age from within the bottle. So in about 1870. So we went to champagne in around 1850.

David Way 00:18:48 In 1870 discovered that an aristocratic estate nearby was actually growing Pinot noir. So he bought Pinot noir from this aristocratic estate and made traditional methods sparkling wine. Of course, he called it Italian champagne, which, of course you couldn’t today. And that was about 1870. So this is way before the French Quarter were founded and created traditional method in Italy. And then it sort of fell out of fashion, basically. And then after the Second World War, with the creation of inexpensive stainless steel and tanks and all that, we began to see the tank method. And Monti made a massive success of it with Moscato and Asti. The two very similar sparkling wines made with the same grape variety made in a tank. And so that became the dominant message. And then in 1990, these six large sparkling wine houses in pure monte or making tank method said, hang on a minute. This traditional method is part of our heritage as well. So why don’t we start a project to make traditional methods sparkling wine? So they started a research project and basically they planted different clones of Pinot Noir and Chardonnay in various vineyards in Piemonte.

David Way 00:20:07 And then they did micro unifications of those. And eventually by about 2002, they were ready to launch a wine, which is called Alta lunga. So Lunga is the name of the area around Barilla and Barbaresco. Alta Lunga simply means the higher land above those areas, so the wine is called Alta Langa dog now, and it has to be 90% Pinot noir or Chardonnay. So it has to be a champagne lookalike and it has to be made in a bottle. The second fermentation in the bottle, as you explained. So it’s really a distinct it’s been a significant success. There are up to 3 million bottles now in a relatively short time, you know.

Natalie MacLean 00:20:52 And are they the ones who have mandated for themselves to age the wine? 30 months on the lees? On the yeast?

David Way 00:21:00 Yes.

David Way 00:21:01 They made two really good decisions, one of which worked perfectly, which is that one, and the other one, which was a good idea but didn’t didn’t quite get it right. So let’s start with that one.

David Way 00:21:11 They said, for after Langer, the grapes have to be grown at a minimum altitude level. So they then had a big debate about what the minimum altitude level was going to be. And unfortunately they decided on 250m when it should have been more like 400.

Natalie MacLean 00:21:27 Above sea level. Okay. To get a colder okay to.

David Way 00:21:30 Get it cooler. Exactly. That’s right. Because you’re growing Pinot Noir and Chardonnay in a pretty warm place. Okay, so you need altitude to bring those up.

David Way 00:21:37 The acidity. Yeah.

David Way 00:21:38 Yeah, exactly. And apparently the reason another grower has told me this, I can’t verify it, but it’s it sounds entirely plausible that there was one of the large companies already had vineyards at that lower level. So they compromised and included the, you know, 250 and above. What’s happened since then is that people have been planting higher and higher. So they’re planting at four, 50, 500, five, 50, 600m. Because obviously the climate has also warmed in the intervening decades.

David Way 00:22:07 So there’s been lots of really interesting planting going on at 600m, which I think is really promising for the future. So that was the thing which they had the right intention but didn’t quite get the actual figure right. And as I’ve already said earlier on, these rules never get changed. You know, it’s very difficult to undo the past. The thing they actually absolutely got right, which was extraordinarily courageous, was they said you have to keep it in the bottle for 30 months before you release it. Now, if you compare that to champagne, which is 15 months, and many other sparkling wine regions would be 15 to 18 months. So that is a real commitment because obviously you’re financially. Yeah, financially, you’ve got a lot of wine in the cellar which you can’t sell yet. And that was a really great idea. Which means that every bottle. What does that mean in practice? It means that in practice, every bottle of Alta Lunga will have those hazelnut pastry toasty notes, which is typical of the style.

David Way 00:23:09 That was a great decision. And yeah, has really paid off.

Natalie MacLean 00:23:13 Great. Oh, well. And just before I wanted to do one more sparkling wine. But back to Asti. Did it used to be called SDC Vermont and they got rid of the spam Monty part.

David Way 00:23:24 Okay.

David Way 00:23:25 So yes, basically. So now the rules say you can call it either Asti or Astiz payment.

David Way 00:23:32 Oh, you can.

Natalie MacLean 00:23:33 Still use.

David Way 00:23:33 That. You can still call it at this moment if you want to. Most of it is now called Asti. So there are now two very closely related wines, both made with Moscato, both made from the same region called either Moscato Dusty or Asti stroke. Asti. Spumante.

David Way 00:23:51 Yeah. Yes.

Natalie MacLean 00:23:52 Keep it simple, folks. Keep it.

David Way 00:23:54 Simple. Yeah. No. Exactly.

Natalie MacLean 00:23:56 Now there’s a red sparkling wine of the region. Tell us about that one.

David Way 00:24:00 So it’s important to take a step back at this point and say that the old Piedmontese tradition was that many wines would be semi sparkling, and that could be Barbera, could be Fraiser, almost any red grape variety except Nebbiolo.

David Way 00:24:17 Okay. There are also very aromatic grapes like Brca2 or Malvasia, which make really good sparkling wine, but they are red, so bruschetta is probably the most famous of the. I mean, none of these wines are well known. Let’s be straightforward about this, but they are lovely. So bruschetta is like, if you imagine what a red Moscato dusty would taste like. It’s just like that. Okay, so it’s floral. It’s very red cherry. It’s usually semi sparkling. it’s usually got residual sugar. and it’s usually relatively low alcohol, probably more like 7 or 8 percent rather than 5.5, but, you know, lower than the typical table wine. So there is a real tradition of semi sparkling or there’s even a category called vivace which means very lightly sparkling.

Natalie MacLean 00:25:10 Because then there’s present too, I guess, is that.

David Way 00:25:13 Asti is present. Present is simply means less than 2.5 bar of pressure. So it is the bottom half of the pressure range. So present is 2.5 or less. Spumante is three or more, but is much more typically 5 or 6.

David Way 00:25:29 So you end up basically with something that is semi sparkling or fully sparkling.

Natalie MacLean 00:25:35 And then what would champagne be for comparison?

David Way 00:25:37 Champagne would.

David Way 00:25:38 Be spumante. If it was Italian, it would be spumante.

David Way 00:25:40 Yeah, it’s the same.

Natalie MacLean 00:25:42 Okay, okay. Same six bars. Oh, pressure. Okay.

David Way 00:25:46 All right.

David Way 00:25:46 Yeah, yeah. Fully sparkling.

David Way 00:25:48 Yeah.

Natalie MacLean 00:25:48 Okay.

David Way 00:25:49 Got it.

David Way 00:25:50 So they love the sparkling wine. They love champagne. I mean, don’t tell anybody. If you go to high end wine shop in Alba, which is the main town between Barone and Barbaresco, it’ll be two thirds wines from the region. And one third champagne. It’s quite incredible how much they love. They love champagne. And therefore, that’s partly why Alta Lange has been such a success, because they’re saying, actually, we can make a wine which is broadly similar to your wine. Obviously it’s a bit riper, it’s more of a place, but it is in the same tradition as champagne. Yeah.

Natalie MacLean 00:26:22 Oh, great.

Natalie MacLean 00:26:23 This red sparkling wine. Would you compare it at all to the sparkling Shiraz from Australia, or are they very different.

David Way 00:26:29 They tend to be quite different. And that’s because with Sparkling Shiraz, basically you make a standard still wine first and then make it sparkling, so you end up with a much higher level of alcohol than you would in Viva Barbera or whatever.

Natalie MacLean 00:26:50 Probably deeper red fruit. Whereas as you’re saying, the red sparkling from Piemonte is more like a red version of Moscato dosti with lighter red fruit here.

David Way 00:27:00 Nice and red fruit. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Natalie MacLean 00:27:02 All right. And the whites, we’re talking about them after the reds and the sparkling. What percentage of wine made in Piedmont is white?

David Way 00:27:10 So this is a.

David Way 00:27:11 Really interesting story, and actually one I’ve only researched since I wrote the book. When there is another edition or whatever, I will be able to add some things. So what I’ve discovered is that there’s a significant trend of increasing the amount of white wine that is made.

David Way 00:27:27 And it’s particularly Arnis in Romero and Chardonnay. Sauvignon. And then a local grape variety called Tim Raso and of course Cortez, which makes agave so Garvey’s well-established wine. But it has it has increased its, its plantings in the last 15 years. So it’s quite a complex picture in that basically what’s happening is that the Piedmontese are making less inexpensive wine, so it is much less cheap Barbera, for example, on the market. And that’s simply because social habits have changed. Italians no longer go and work in the fields. Most of them. Most Italians will have a, you know, either a professional job or a job as a mechanic or whatever, and they will drink wine quite regularly as a, you know, as an option. They might drink some other drink, but they might drink wine. Whereas in the past, wine was simply a food substance, like grain or whatever.

Natalie MacLean 00:28:24 Drinking it instead of water, like all day.

David Way 00:28:27 Long or whatever it was. There was a.

David Way 00:28:29 Huge amount of really inexpensive red wine grown in Piemonte in the past, frankly, none of which is missed.

David Way 00:28:36 It was not great. Those figures have dropped, but interestingly, they’ve continued to drop in modern times. So there’s been about a 15% reduction in black grapes grown by hectares planted in the last 15 years and about the same increase in white grapes. So that’s really interesting. And it’s partly because people are drinking more white wine. That’s a global trend, not just a Piedmontese one. And I think it’s also because they have a very, very good market for their red grapes, for their red wines, but they also want to offer something else. And therefore they’re looking for interesting local white grape varieties to complement the red wines, which they can they already offer. So that’s really interesting. And I say only I only discovered this about a year ago. I eventually found the source of the data, which tells you exactly what is planted where. And you can see there’s 15 years of data. You can see exactly what’s happening.

Natalie MacLean 00:29:34 So you’ve already lined up your next addition or changes updates to it. Yes.

Natalie MacLean 00:29:38 Yeah. So you have a wine there with you. Speaking of all this, probably should have asked for it at the beginning. So you could, like, not have to wait so long. David, what is the wine that you have there with you?

David Way 00:29:49 So it is.

David Way 00:29:50 Somewhat predictably red. I could have chosen a white wine, but I just happened to choose a red. Why did I choose this? It is Nebbiolo.

David Way 00:29:56 Okay, so that was.

David Way 00:29:57 A bit unadventurous because I could.

David Way 00:29:59 Have, but I thought I could.

David Way 00:30:01 It’s quite difficult because there are so many other interesting red wines, but they’re much more difficult to find. So if I recommend Ruka or Green Elina or something to you, you’re really struggled to find it was Nebbiolo. You will find any market in the world. So this is a Nebbiolo, but not from a typical place, or at least not from a well-known place.

Natalie MacLean 00:30:22 Okay, something tricky I’ve.

David Way 00:30:24 Already said, Alba is the center of the wine trade in Piemonte.

David Way 00:30:29 And as I’ve already said, Barolo is 20 minutes in one direction, Barbaresco is 20 minutes in another direction. And there is a region called Ruggiero, which is 20 minutes north of Alba.

David Way 00:30:40 Okay.

David Way 00:30:41 Which, incidentally, why Alba is such a good place if you’re a wine tourist because you are between three really important denominations. So Romero is well known for its white wine. It’s where our nice. So Roberto Martinez is pretty well known wine, which, you know, particularly since about 1990, has done really well in the world and as I’ve already said, has increased its plantings even in the last 15 years. What people don’t know about Roro is it’s also a very good source of Nebbiolo wines at much lower prices. Okay, so this is about because obviously Roland Barbaresco had become, you know, quite expensive wine and some.

David Way 00:31:20 Of the names.

David Way 00:31:21 Yeah, some of them are super expensive. And then below that there’s a great band of fantastic wines, which if you put it in. So I’m going to do this in pounds, you know, like 35 to £50 a bottle.

Natalie MacLean 00:31:34 Okay. So double that for Canadian dollars.

David Way 00:31:37 Yeah, exactly.

David Way 00:31:38 There’s some fantastic wines from Barolo and Barbaresco in that price range. You don’t have to pay 250 to get a great wine. However, if you go to Riviera, you are going to be right at the bottom of that band. So you’re going to get a really great wine as a really good price. Now my friend zero zero always got crossed at this point. And I have I have had this argument with them and I know exactly what they did and why they did it. Sadly, I just think they made a mistake. So if you look at the bottle and I will show you the bottle, so don’t worry about the vineyard name and all that at the moment. So underneath it says Roro dog, doesn’t it? Can you see the row arrow in white?

David Way 00:32:19 Yep. Barely.

Natalie MacLean 00:32:19 Yes.

David Way 00:32:20 Yes. Barely. Yes.

David Way 00:32:21 Okay, I’ll put it a It’s fine. Yeah. Is that better?

David Way 00:32:24 Okay, so, Roro, now, if you went into a wine shop and saw Romero like that, unless you are a Brontes wine geek, you would have no idea what was in that bottle.

Natalie MacLean 00:32:37 You would know the grape? Yeah.

David Way 00:32:38 You would not know the grape. And their argument is, well, we want to be like Barolo and Barbaresco. We want to be known for our place. And I’m saying to them, fine is that you have to understand that nobody’s going to know. And the weird thing is, they did call the white wine Roro Ana’s. So you can tell exactly what the grape variety is from the front label. I just think it was heart over mind, you know? It just didn’t think that one through. Anyway, they didn’t put it, but that’s fine. But what it means is that the real bargains to be had in Romero from the Nebbiolo grape variety. The style is slightly different because Romero has got lots of sand. It has far more sand in the soil than Barolo or Barbaresco, so you don’t get quite the enormous body that you get in Barolo wines, which actually might be a good thing. They’re more accessible. This is a reserva and probably comes from a relatively clay site.

David Way 00:33:34 So actually it’s quite similar, but it’s a beautiful wine. And just to prove that it does age, this is 2014. In the glass.

David Way 00:33:41 Okay. Great. Yeah. Beautiful deep.

David Way 00:33:43 Color.

Natalie MacLean 00:33:43 Still it is very much.

David Way 00:33:45 It’s got all those things I was waxing lyrical about earlier in terms of what it smells like. So it’s got that those floral notes, it’s got that lovely ripe red to slightly black fruit. It’s got some of that tarry, earthy complexity of aged Nebbiolo. So I think it’s a gorgeous wine and yeah, good value. And it’s just worth knowing the name of Roro to know that you can get very good Nebbiolo from that place.

Natalie MacLean 00:34:14 We’ll put that in the show links as well. David, the time has flown. This has been fascinating. I love I’ve found this great, almost like a compact course on Piedmont, so it’s wonderful. If you could share a bottle of wine with anyone outside the wine industry, living or dead, who would that be and what would the wine be that you’d open?

David Way 00:34:37 So I said to my wife before she went out this evening, I said to her, I don’t know the answer to this, and she’s bound to ask me.

David Way 00:34:46 And then I said, and I wasn’t joking. I said, of course I’d share it with you.

David Way 00:34:51 I said to my.

David Way 00:34:52 Wife, and she said. And then she said, yeah, you can’t say that. So I said, okay, I’ll think again. So I said, actually, I’d like to share this. A slightly odd choice because this person is very much alive and he is an English wine writer, but he but he does live in France, so I don’t see him hardly ever. So Andrew Jefford is a very marvelous wine writer. And why would I want to share this bottle of wine with him, whatever it turned out to be. Because I just think he has an amazing facility with words, which most of us I just do not have. Some of my colleagues at the West get across with him because he uses a lot of. Is there a lot of analogies? He uses a lot of he’s quite a poet. He does actually write some poetry as a as a sort of like a hobby.

David Way 00:35:44 I think we struggle in what I struggle, and we struggle in wine to actually convey this amazing experience. And I think Andrew does it better than anybody. So that would be the reason why I would share the wine. What would the wine be? I would choose something a little bit more off piste, like one of the great white grapes of Piemonte, which actually has begun to be known a bit better. It’s called timorous, though, and it doesn’t come from anywhere near Barolo or Barbaresco. It comes from an hour and a half away, towards the east, towards the border with Lombardy. And it’s one of those amazing white grapes. It’s very full bodied. It’s very neutral when it’s young, so you really have to put it away for 5 to 10 years, and then it develops, sort of develops into a sort of version of Riesling. You know, those amazing hydrocarbon, you know, the petrol, the diesel notes, all those things. and so it develops real complexity and interest with a bit of bottle age.

David Way 00:36:44 And I just love to know what he would make of it and how he would describe it.

Natalie MacLean 00:36:49 that would be fascinating to hear him talk about that or any other wine. As we wrap up, is there anything that we haven’t covered that you’d like to mention? David.

David Way 00:36:59 Yeah, let’s just.

David Way 00:36:59 Talk about wine tourism for a moment because we haven’t talked about that, have we? So yes, Alba and Barrel and Barbaresco have become real wine tourist destinations. Absolutely. Properly, because they are I mean, it’s a beautiful landscape, amazing wines, incredible cuisine. What are you waiting for? You know, I mean, it’s just, you know, it’s. They are fantastic places to visit the owner. And it’s become very smart of late. You can see that it’s been very successful. So there are lots of lovely little, you know, Michelin starred restaurants. There are lovely small, there aren’t big hotels, but there are lots of lovely boutique places to stay. There are inexpensive places to stay.

David Way 00:37:41 The food and wine scene is never going to be cheap, you know, because there’s super high quality, but it’s really worth it. There’s one bit of advice I would have is if you have any more time, do go somewhere else in Piemonte as well, because it is so easy just to stay in the Langer in Alba and not go anywhere else and not taste, you know, the great Barbera wines, which are only like 50 minutes away, or that white chocolate or Tony’s Timorous, which I just talked about, which is an hour and a half away, or even the Nebbiolo wines of northern Piemonte, which are two hours away. So my bit of advice would be, of course, go to Alba, have a great time, but do schedule a couple of days to go somewhere else as well. And of course you’d have the perfect guide to all.

David Way 00:38:30 Yes. Yes. The wines.

Natalie MacLean 00:38:32 Of Piedmont. Congratulations again on this book, David. And how how much it’s been lauded to in the in the press and the awards.

Natalie MacLean 00:38:40 And just a reminder that two of you can win a copy of this book, but the rest of you should all go and get it from Academy of. We’ll put the link to academy.com and to David’s books. You’re at wine friend dawg.

David Way 00:38:55 Wine friends.

David Way 00:38:55 That’s my personal.

David Way 00:38:56 Website. Okay, I’m on.

David Way 00:38:58 Instagram simply as David Wine, for example. I’m on Facebook. But yeah, the principle place is wine friend.org.

Natalie MacLean 00:39:05 Wine friend org great and Academy. Well David thank you so much. Real pleasure talking to you again. This has been a marvelous education. Piedmont. I want to go. And I’m thirsty now. I want to actually go down to my cellar and see, dig out a Barolo or something, see how it’s doing. But thank you so much for, for sharing all of this with us.

David Way 00:39:27 It’s been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much. I mean, I feel it’s such a privilege to have written about such a great region and have learned so much in the process, and I love sharing it with people.

David Way 00:39:36 So thank you. Thank you Natalie. It’s been a real pleasure.

Natalie MacLean 00:39:39 Your passion is evident. I’ll say goodbye for now, and I look forward to sharing a glass with you in person sometime.

David Way 00:39:47 Indeed.

David Way 00:39:48 Okay.

Natalie MacLean 00:39:54 Well, there you have it. I hope you enjoyed our chat with David. Here are my takeaways. In northern Italy, Alba, Barolo and Barbaresco have become tourist destinations. How can you make the most of your visit to these regions in Piemonte? David notes that Alba, Barolo and Barbaresco have beautiful landscapes, amazing wines and incredible cuisine with lots of lovely small Michelin starred restaurants. There are also boutique hotels that are relatively inexpensive. While it’s easy to stay in the longer. David advises venturing outside this region and tasting great Barbera wines or the white Collie torrents, which is just an hour and a half away. Number two why should you try a Nebbiolo wine from Roro? David explains that Alba is the center of wine trade in Piemonte. Barolo is 20 minutes in one direction, Barbaresco 20 minutes and the other.

Natalie MacLean 00:40:48 And then there is a region called Roro, which is 20 minutes north of Alba. Roro is known for its white wine. What people don’t know about it is that it’s also an excellent source of Nebbiolo wines at much lower prices. Barolo and Barbaresco have become quite expensive because their brand names now. However, if you go to Roro, You’re going to get a really great wine at a good price. And number three, why is there so much excitement about the sparkling wines of Piemonte? Now, David says Piemonte has both tank method and traditional method sparkling wines. It was one of the biggest surprises in doing the research for his book Traditional Method. Sparkling wine made in the bottle is typical of two areas outside Piemonte Franca and Trento. But Piemonte is actually the pioneer of that style. So long before Franca Quarter and Trento were created, Carlo Garcia took himself off to champagne and learned how to make traditional methods sparkling wine. He came back and made that wine and called it Italian champagne and created the traditional method in Italy.

Natalie MacLean 00:41:59 It fell out of fashion. And then after the Second World War, with the invention of inexpensive stainless steel tanks, it regained popularity. Piemonte has had massive success with Moscato, Dusty and Asti, the two very similar sparkling wines made with the same grape variety and made in a tank. However, in 2002, the sparkling wine houses of Piemonte launched a traditional method sparkling wine called Alta Langa. It’s been a significant success in a relatively short time. In the show notes, you’ll find the full transcript of my conversation with David, links to his website and books the video versions of these conversations on Facebook and YouTube live, and where you can order my book online now, no matter where you live. If you missed episode 184, go back and take a listen. I chat about Prosecco, success story and snob disdain with Stephie Kim of Vine Italy. I’ll share a short clip with you now to whet your appetite.

Stevie Kim 00:43:01 Prosecco is more approachable for newcomers. There’s a little bit more residual sugar and the acidity isn’t as high.

Stevie Kim 00:43:10 It is absolutely the number one driver for Italian wine.

Natalie MacLean 00:43:15 Yeah, it’s a real engine. Just as ice wine was for Canada. It’s where people can come in and understand it. It’s bubbly and it’s tasty. It’s definitely still a very strange love hate relationship between consumers and connoisseurs. Do you see Prosecco continuing to gain in popularity in the next five years?

Stevie Kim 00:43:35 I do believe so, especially because they’ve come up with rosé prosecco. I mean, how smart is that?

Natalie MacLean 00:43:46 You won’t want to miss next week when we chat with Chris Rowland, author of the award winning press for champagne A guide to Enjoying the World’s Greatest Sparkling Wine. He’ll join us from his home in Austin, Texas. If you liked this episode or learned even one thing from it, please email or tell a friend about the podcast this week, especially someone you know who’d be interested in learning more about the wines of Piemonte. It’s easy to find my podcast. Just tell them to search for Natalie MacLean Wine on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, their favorite podcast app, or they can listen to the show on my website at Natalie MacLean.

Natalie MacLean 00:44:22 Com forward slash podcast. Email me if you have a SIP tip question or if you’d like to win one of the books I mentioned in the intro one of two copies of David’s book. Or if you’re reading mine or listening to it, I’d love to hear your thoughts as well about this episode. Were you surprised about the sparkling wines of Piemonte? Are you hoping to visit this region someday? Have you visited? I’d love to hear from you. Email me at Nathalie at Natalie MacLean. Com in the show notes, you’ll find a link to take a free online food and wine pairing class with me called the Five Wine and Food Pairing Mistakes That Can Ruin Your Dinner and How to Fix Them Forever. At Natalie MacLean dot com forward slash Class. And that’s all in the show notes at Natalie MacLean dot com. Forward slash 316. Thank you for taking the time to join me here. I hope something great is in your glass this week. Perhaps a zesty sparkling wine from Piemonte.

Jo Penn 00:45:29 For people listening. Unfortunately, this is something that this happened to you and you did make a mistake.

Jo Penn 00:45:37 But as you said, it was not legally a mistake. And. And the reaction happened and all that happened to you. And now I think people are like, well, why would I ever do this? Why didn’t you at that point give up? You could have done you could have you you know, you’re highly educated, intelligent woman. You could have got a job again doing something else. So why didn’t you walk away from the whole thing?

Natalie MacLean 00:46:05 Well, first of all, I’m very stubborn. Second of all, I’m a I’m a collapsed Catholic, so I believe in suffering makes you stronger. So, but beyond that, I did ask friends and family. I had some conversations saying, should I just go back to high tech marketing? But I left high tech marketing because there was so much sexism. And then I land here, it’s like, oh dear, I just left Brave New World. This high tech world move fast, break things, stumbled into Downton Abbey. But there’s a different brand, a different blend of sexism here.

Natalie MacLean 00:46:36 But at one friend asked me, well, you know you love what you do. You’ve worked at it now for at that time, 13, 14 years. Are you sure you want to walk away from that and go back to a corporate job? I thought, God, no, that’s not me. I’m too feral for an office and I love what I do, so why wouldn’t I continue? But it was very scary because, you know, at the time, when you’re in the middle of a maelstrom, you don’t know what’s going to happen. You can’t see the future, you don’t know if you’re going to get sued or something’s going to happen, what’s going to happen? But you have to kind of take a breath, come back, lean on friends and family advice. You know, I was in counseling at the time. I remain in counseling. I’m a big proponent of therapy. And you have to get back to, why did I do this in the first place? Why did I start writing about wine? I love writing, and I love the sensory engagement that wine brings me.

Natalie MacLean 00:47:30 So has that changed? No. So why should I leave, even though it feels like it might be safer at the time, but it’s not. Yeah.

Jo Penn 00:47:40 I mean, it’s it’s not at all what you went through. But several times over the last few years I’ve had the sort of attracted the, the hate for my stance on I and I have at several times said to Jonathan, my husband, I think I’m just quitting the whole thing. I mean, screw this. Yeah. and then, as you say, the part of the community that are like, no, this is valuable and we want this. It becomes part of why you stay. And also, as you said, I love what I do as well, and I love writing books, but I also like technology and learning things. And so why should you give up? And also people forget, right? So this is the more relevant question for people listening. How are things for you now and how do you protect yourself and potentially try and stop these things from happening?

Natalie MacLean 00:48:33 Yeah, yeah.

Natalie MacLean 00:48:34 Well, I’m so glad you do what you do, Joe. I mean, I just love following you all about AI. And, you know, unfortunately, those of us who are on this planet today evolved from probably the most paranoid whatever ancestors who were always searching the environment for what’s wrong, what’s wrong, what’s wrong. And so that’s our negative bent, because that’s what helped us stay alive and procreate. So we are the progeny of the most worried people on the planet. So we’re going to notice the naysayers and the negativity. But you have to kind of again, step back after you block and walk and realize there’s just so much more positivity that’s, you know, so many more supporters. So, you know, in terms of now, I’ve had the benefit of this has been a decade since this happened. And as memoirist Glennon Doyle said, you know, right from a scar, not an open wound. And, you know, my family at the time said, well, okay, you’ve done the healing.

Natalie MacLean 00:49:34 Why would you bother to write about this? Aren’t you just opening the scar? And I said, well, you know, I always I love Thomas Doherty, Irish poet, who said, why bother to write about it? Because there is someone, somewhere right now who has a wound in the exact shape of your words, which I love. And so that’s why I shared the story. But that’s why I’m also able to share the story I’ve had. I’ve had the telescoping of time, the lens to pull back and to make the reflections on what happened ten years ago from a place of being healed. So it feels safe. And it’s those reflections that are useful to readers. So, you know, no one wants a misery dump for a memoir. They want to know not just what you did, but what you did with it, so that they can apply that to their lives. If they’re in a professional crisis or a personal meltdown with a relationship. So that’s why I’m able to do it now and then in terms of safeguarding my health.

Natalie MacLean 00:50:37 well, you know, I work out with a fabulous trainer you recommended to me. I love you.

Jo Penn 00:50:43 Even though I’m in the UK and you’re in Canada. We have the same personal trainer we do.

Natalie MacLean 00:50:48 I do it remotely. Obviously, I’m not flying over to to bath. once a week. I learned to say bath correctly too, on the last podcast. but so physical health, you know, exercise, sleep, diet, but also mental health. I continue in therapy. I love it like it’s just we’re never finished with who we are. and just the safeguards I put for myself online, a lot of blocking, a lot of deleting comments, whatever. Because that’s that’s your daily mental stream that’s in there. and you have to you have to protect it.

Jo Penn 00:51:25 Yeah. Well, another tip for people. for a while, I outsourced my inbox because I just couldn’t, you know, I get a lot of email. And at the time, I was getting a lot of email that I didn’t want to see, and it was hurting my brain.

Jo Penn 00:51:39 So for about a year, I did outsource my inbox. And then that person triaged and then sent me the emails that were nice or that I could respond to. That’s great. Yeah. So that actually helped. And I think perhaps that’s a crisis management tip because it is I don’t use that anymore, that after a while that kind of died down. And so I was able to sort of take it back. But, I mean, you’re on TV and you’re visible and you’re on social media. So do you have I mean, you’ve set your boundaries so you only share certain things like give some advice around that.

Natalie MacLean 00:52:13 Sure. So when I go on TV, it’s all about, you know, wine and fast food or wine and turkey for holiday dinners. It’s pretty happy topics. other than when I was talking about my book, which does again, have a lot of humor, I’m painting it as this really dark story. But but in terms of boundaries, I guess, you know, I am public, I am out there.

Natalie MacLean 00:52:35 The memoir is very personal, but it’s what I’ve chosen, where my boundaries are. And, you know, in the memoir, I did change the names of my family because I wanted to protect their privacy. And sure, someone who’s really diligent can Google and try to figure out who everybody is. but, you know, so I set up those boundaries. But just a side note that writers might might like to hear on this bit about changing names. At first, I didn’t want to use the real names for all of the trolls online, and so I changed all their names because I thought, don’t give trolls oxygen in your book. But then once one of the lawyers read the book, he said, well, you know that if you quote what they’re saying from statements online and you use a pseudonym, you’re violating their copyright. And I know, oh, my. This is just to hide the ironies. But then in the end, by the end of writing the book, I came to the full, deeply peaceful conclusion that they deserved full credit for what they did and said so I use their real names.

David Way 00:53:38 Yeah, yeah.

Jo Penn 00:53:39 No, I love that. That’s great.

Natalie MacLean 00:53:43 Anyway, yeah. So that’s basically what I do is try to, you know, have some boundaries in terms of like I don’t expose where I live or real names of my family. You know, there are just some things that just are good safety protocols.

Jo Penn 00:53:57 So another thing I wanted to ask you about was you sent me this extraordinary book club guide, and it’s got wine pairings for the book, and it’s 54 pages. And when you sent it to me, I thought, oh, I’ll just open this. I’m sure it’s just a list of questions, which is what I do for book clubs, which is, oh, here’s 20 questions that you might like to explore. And you do that, but you’ve basically written a whole book for a book club. And this fascinates me. So what are your tips for engaging with book clubs and how do you reach them? Because you clearly didn’t make this for no reason, right?

Natalie MacLean 00:54:32 the evolution of that was at the end of each chapter in the memoir.

Natalie MacLean 00:54:37 I was recommending wines that kind of tied into the themes, but for two reasons. My editor and I decided to eliminate that and put it into this book club guide. One was, are you down and depressed getting divorced? Here’s a wine for that. It’s like, okay, that’s not the message that I want to send. The other thing is, it became too long. So 54 pages, 13,000 words in this little book club guide. We remove that because the length of the book was too long. So it comes in at 75,000, which is a typical, you know, soft paperback at 300 pages, I think it is, or just under. So that made it the right length. So that’s where this first developed. I didn’t sit down to write a 54 page book club guide, but it worked as a standalone, I think, because it does go chapter by chapter, it gives you a wine, it asks you chapter specific questions, but it tries to go or I tried to go beyond that because, again, a memoir should be relevant to the reader and get them talking about their own lives and what they can draw from the book.

Natalie MacLean 00:55:42 So it asks questions like, you know, do you feel that wine is marketed to women differently from men? How do you feel about your own relationship with alcohol? Did it change during the pandemic. And so these are all questions that can spark discussion for a book clubs, especially when members don’t read the books, which I’ve heard happen sometimes. But also it was interesting because it came back to me through people emailing and direct messaging that like a husband and wife or husband, husband, wife, wife would read it together and use the book club guide as a way to talk about those issues between them, or daughters and mothers and so on, of drinking age. We’re using it in that way. So I thought, that’s great. The marketing to the book clubs has been mainly through the front and back pages, or front and back matter, as we call it. So at the beginning of the book, there is a QR code and a URL that if you scan it, it will take you right to the book club guide.

Natalie MacLean 00:56:41 So that’s wine which on fire. Com forward slash guide. And then it’s there again at the back of the book. That’s the greatest marketing that I did for this book club guide. And of course, you’re collecting email addresses. They can unsubscribe anytime they want. But that’s how I heard from a lot of people. And then I also put at the back of the book. Email me if you’ve spotted a typo or just want to ask a question. I had so many people like there weren’t a lot of typos, but I know people love to email about typos, so I got a lot of emails that way, but I’m just trying to seek out engagement with my readers because I want to take them on the journey with me. I’m not as prolific as you are, Joe, but I do believe that one of the key success factors for marketing any book is an email list. You know, I’m on social media, but the majority of my effort is through my email newsletter because you’ve got that 1 to 1 conversation not on rented land, as we all say, but that’s been the major thing.

Natalie MacLean 00:57:38 Now I will try to seek out, like when I hear there’s a book club reading my book, I’ll offer to go on zoom, join their meeting. But I get a lot of people, like a lot of book club members who read the book on their own and then recommend it for their book club, just because it has such a big discussion potential. And then they discovered there’s a book of guide that will help them not only organize the discussion, but also the wine tasting, which is, again, the reason why a lot of book clubs meet in the first place.

Jo Penn 00:58:04 Yeah, I think that’s genius. And I think we should all try a bit harder. I think I certainly felt like, oh, I should try harder with that because I, I’ve tried to go to a book club, but I just couldn’t get involved with that. I’m not a very groupie type person, so I think because I haven’t been part of them, I, I haven’t paid enough attention. But reading your guide, I was like, okay, this is great.

Jo Penn 00:58:27 Thank you.

Natalie MacLean 00:58:27 Yeah, book clubs aren’t for everyone, but I do want to. And if anybody’s listening that does interact with a lot of book clubs, I would love to hear their suggestions because for my next book, I do want to write a book that’s specifically for book clubs, but I’m still trying to get my head around it, you know, with wines to taste. And but, you know, most book clubs are very proprietary as to which books they choose to read. So I’m trying to think, well, where would a book for book clubs that’s recommending wines and maybe some books on the side. Where would that fit in? But anyway, so that’s just an open invitation. If anyone wants to contact me at Natalie at Natalie MacLean dot com, I’d love to hear your suggestions.

Jo Penn 00:59:02 No, I think that’s great. And I wanted to just move into the business side for a minute because you mentioned there you’re not as prolific as me. I don’t think that’s true because you write freelance articles, you write for your website every day in terms of number of words written.

Jo Penn 00:59:16 I think you outstripped me like a lot.

Natalie MacLean 00:59:19 I definitely drink you, but.

Jo Penn 00:59:22 but you have a business around writing and wine, so it’s not just the book. So could you talk us through your multiple streams of income? Because I think that’s really interesting. Sure.

Natalie MacLean 00:59:32 So the first one would be online wine and food pairing classes. So at Natalie MacLean dot com you can find the wine and food pairing classes I offer. I have an in-depth course because food seems to be less intimidating for people to get to know. Wine. You know, a chicken is a chicken. It doesn’t have a vintage chart, whatever. So I bring people in that way, but also those who know a lot about wine sommeliers and so on. Also take the course because a lot of sommelier courses and so on surprisingly don’t have a heavy food and wine pairing element to it. And it’s just a lot of fun. And people get to know each other from around the world. So that’s stream number one. Stream number two is subscriptions to my wine reviews.

Natalie MacLean 01:00:14 Every two weeks, there’s a new batch of 100 wines that come out in our liquor stores here. Our provincial liquor store is the second largest purchaser of wine in the world. So it’s a huge chain. So a lot of the reviews are relevant to other regions, countries and so on. I review wines from all over the planet. That’d be number two. Number three is advertising on the website, the books, what else? I get paid some honorarium for TV appearances, some not. And then I also do speaking. So lately it’s been a run of teachers organizations wanting me to speak to them. My mom was a teacher for 32 years. My grandmother was an English teacher. I taught Highland dancing, so I’m loving these groups. It’s a variety of topics, from marketing wine to women to make your dumpster fire your superpower. You know, getting stronger through resilience after you’ve struggled through something, all those kind of topics.

Jo Penn 01:01:10 And this is so important because nonfiction books in particular, having an ecosystem around the book, is where you can make more money.

Jo Penn 01:01:19 And then just, just finally, you’ve got your Unreserved Wine Talk podcast. And I’ve been on that talking about Blood Vintage, which was which was great, but I know how much work podcasting is. So why did you start the show and how does podcasting fit into your book marketing and your business?

Natalie MacLean 01:01:37 Well, I am a listener first. In fact, I don’t know if I’ve read a physical book for a long time. Even when you sent me the PDF, I put it up into Adobe and got it to read it to me. Oh, great. Yeah, that’s how I consumed Blood vintage. So I’m listening to podcasts all the time. I listen to audiobooks. I’m an audible learner audio learner. Even before podcasts, the rise of podcasts, I had a shortwave satellite radio and I would listen to the BBC at night because that’s when the reception was best. And these voices, these lovely British voices, would sweep in and out over the ocean, depending on how clear the night was. And I love listening to those.

Natalie MacLean 01:02:18 Perhaps it goes back to when my mom used to read me stories at night and just hearing her voice read The Wizard of Oz and putting my hand on her forearm and feeling her strength, and the words were in the air and then coming into me. I love all that. I love audio. So I decided to start the podcast in, well, actually made a few attempts in 2008, but the technology just confounded me. Then I started officially in near the end of 2018 and got it up and running, and it was an excuse for me to be nosy and ask impertinent questions to people in the wine world, people connected to the wine world. It’s not just winemakers. I interview authors like you. They tend to be wine authors, but sommeliers, cheese people, chefs, anybody. But it’s all about the storytelling, so it’s very much similar to what I do my books. It allows me entree into someone else’s life to ask the questions that I hope that my listeners, readers would want to ask, but might be too afraid to or don’t have access to this person.

Natalie MacLean 01:03:20 That’s what I’m trying to do on unreserved wine talk.

Jo Penn 01:03:23 People who think about starting a podcast is like, does it help me sell books? Does it promote my brand? Does it make me money because it is a lot of work? Or you might pay other people to do that for you. So does it fit business wise as well?

Natalie MacLean 01:03:37 I think it does. There’s a bit of irrationality, like I love to do it, so I’m going to do it. But I do think that it is like having a 100 hour conversation with someone. They get to know you pretty well. Because I don’t just launch into the interview. There’s always a preamble where I’m talking about something perhaps more personally like you do. I love those bits and pieces. What’s happening in your life makes me feel connected. Makes me feel like I really do know you, Joe. I think people love that. Like, it’s very intimate, you know, beside yours. But. So the business case, though, I know that I have purchased online courses after consuming hundreds of episodes of somebody’s podcast, and while I don’t have sophisticated enough tracking, I do believe in the power of podcasting.

Natalie MacLean 01:04:27 Not only is it intimate, but people you know, the stats are amazing. People will listen to you for 30 45 minutes, sometimes longer, whereas it’s considered a win on Facebook or YouTube to get, you know, a 510 second watch of a video. I mean, it’s just so engaged. It’s an engaging medium, but those long term, deeply committed listeners are often also long term, committed readers, whether they’re reading a physical book or listening to it. So I do think there’s quite an overlap. I hope that the tools get better for measuring it.

Jo Penn 01:05:02 Yeah. I mean, I think they will never, ever be tools for podcast listeners conversion because as you say, someone who maybe has listened for months doesn’t buy anything, and then one day they will when they’re ready, or I have people come back now like people were like, oh, you’re still here, you’re still podcasting. I listened to you like five years ago. Then I gave up on my book and now I’m writing it again and they’ve come back and I think, yeah, I think for both of us, I think podcasting is very valuable.

Jo Penn 01:05:32 And in saying that, we’re out of time. So where can people find you and your books and your podcast online?

Natalie MacLean 01:05:38 Awesome. So you can find me at Natalie MacLean dot com Or wine which on fire. Com will take you to Natalie MacLean. Com and then I’m on all the social media channels with my name. But my primary hub is Natalie MacLean. Com and you can get that book club that reader guide wine which on fire.com.

Jo Penn 01:05:58 Brilliant. Thanks so much for your time, Natalie. That was great.

Natalie MacLean 01:06:01 All right. Cheers, Joe. Looking forward to that glass of wine or two in person next time. You don’t want to miss one juicy episode of this podcast, especially the secret full bodied bonus episodes that I don’t announce on social media. So subscribe for free now at Natalie MacLean. Com forward slash. Subscribe. Meet me here next week. Cheers.

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