New Vision for Beautiful Vineyards and Regenerative Viticulture with Mark Gudgel

Natalie MacLean
Jun14th
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Introduction

What does regenerative viticulture mean? How do healthy vineyards today look dramatically different from those five years ago? How did the Wine Olympics make the results of the Judgement of Paris undeniable?

In this episode of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, I’m chatting with author Mark Gudgel.

You can find the wines we discussed here.

 

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Join the live-stream video of this conversation on Wednesday at 7 pm eastern on Instagram Live Video, Facebook Live Video or YouTube Live Video.

I’ll be jumping into the comments as we watch it together so that I can answer your questions in real-time.

I want to hear from you! What’s your opinion of what we’re discussing? What takeaways or tips do you love most from this chat? What questions do you have that we didn’t answer?

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Giveaway

Three of you will win a copy of Mark’s new book, Rise of Napa Valley Wineries: How the Judgment of Paris Put California Wine on the Map.

 

How to Win

To qualify, all you have to do is email me at [email protected] and tell me that you’d like to win a copy. I’ll choose three people randomly from those who contact me.

Good luck!

 

Highlights

  • How did the Wine Olympics make the results of the Judgement of Paris undeniable?
  • What did the people of Napa do to preserve the beauty of the valley?
  • Which aspects of Napa Valley does Mark talk about in The Rise of Napa Valley Wineries?
  • What does regenerative viticulture mean?
  • How is climate change impacting the California wine industry?
  • What surprised Mark the most when researching the book?
  • What needs to change to improve the terribly low levels of diversity in the wine industry?
  • Which aspects of The Rise of Napa Valley Wineries would Mark change in a new edition?
  • What’s Mark’s greatest satisfaction having written this book?
  • Where’s the ideal place to have a glass of wine with friends and why?
  • Why does Mark describe the 2017 Smith-Madrone Riesling as the perfect Riesling?
  • What did Mark love about Christopher McDougall’s Born to Run?
  • Which controversial wine opinion does Mark feel strongly about?
  • Which wine gadget is Mark looking forward to investing in?
  • What does Mark want you to know about Oakville, Napa Valley?

 

Key Takeaways

  • Mark’s definition of regenerative viticulture was helpful. I especially like his observation that the new vision for a beautiful vineyard is rows of well-maintained grapevines with a tremendous diversity of life living within it.
  • I agree with him that if we resign ourselves to merely sustaining where we are, we have resigned ourselves to a long, slow death.
  • I enjoyed his story about how the Wine Olympics made the results of the Judgement of Paris undeniable.
  • It’s also undeniable that the wine industry has a long way to go, with only four African-American Master Sommeliers, and only 10% of Master Sommeliers being women.

 

Start The Conversation: Click Below to Share These Wine Tips

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The new vision for a beautiful vineyard is rows of well-maintained grapevines with a tremendous diversity of life living within it. - Mark Gudgel Mark Gudgel Click to tweet

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If we resign ourselves to merely sustaining where we are, we have resigned ourselves to a long, slow death. - Mark Gudgel Mark Gudgel Click to tweet

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There are four African-American Master Sommeliers and only 10% of Master Sommeliers are women. We’ve got a long way to go. - Mark Gudgel Mark Gudgel Click to tweet

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What’s great wine? Whatever you like, just so long as you can afford it. - Mark Gudgel Mark Gudgel Click to tweet

 

About Mark Gudgel

Dr. Mark Gudgel is an eighteen-year veteran of teaching high school English and presently serves as assistant professor of education at the College of Saint Mary in Omaha. Gudgel is a Fulbright Scholar and a sought-after speaker. His 2012 TED talk is entitled “Empowering young people to repair the world.” After honeymooning in Wine Country, Mark and his wife, Sonja, began a wine blog and soon after he was recruited as a regular correspondent for American Winery Guide. From there, Gudgel went on to write for Food & Spirits, Dine, Edible Omaha, and numerous other publications. Today, Gudgel is a regular contributor to Edible Marin & Wine Country and Napa Valley Life magazines. Gudgel’s book on teaching about the Holocaust, Think Higher Feel Deeper: Holocaust education in the secondary classroom, was released from Teachers College Press in 2021. His forthcoming book, The Rise of Napa Valley Wineries: How the Judgment of Paris put California wine on the map, focuses on the wine industry and issues that surround it, and will be released from History Press in May of 2023. Gudgel is also the president of the board of directors of the vinNEBRASKA Foundation, which raises money for local charities and offer scholarships to aspiring culinary arts students and wine professionals. Presently, in addition to academic research and teaching, Gudgel is working on another book on the Napa Valley. When he isn’t teaching or writing, Gudgel runs marathons, volunteers at his kids’ school, and plays board games with his family. He lives in Omaha with his wife, Sonja, and their children, Titus and Zooey.

 

Resources

 

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Thirsty for more?

  • Sign up for my free online wine video class where I’ll walk you through The 5 Wine & Food Pairing Mistakes That Can Ruin Your Dinner (and how to fix them forever!)
  • You’ll find my books here, including Unquenchable: A Tipsy Quest for the World’s Best Bargain Wines and Red, White and Drunk All Over: A Wine-Soaked Journey from Grape to Glass.
  • The new audio edition of Red, White and Drunk All Over: A Wine-Soaked Journey from Grape to Glass is now available on Amazon.ca, Amazon.com and other country-specific Amazon sites; iTunes.ca, iTunes.com and other country-specific iTunes sites; Audible.ca and Audible.com.

 

Transcript

Mark Gudgel (00:00):
Recognizing what tilling does and deliberately limiting how much tillage occurs.

Natalie MacLean (00:05):
Meaning there’s a tractor that’s turning over the earth.

Mark Gudgel (00:08):
Digging up the earth. Exactly.  Perhaps to grind cover crops into it, which releases carbon, which we don’t want.

Natalie MacLean (00:15):
And it destroys the microbiome that’s there. All the microbial life.

Mark Gudgel (00:19):
The wew vision for a beautiful vineyard is rows of well maintained grapevines with a tremendous diversity of life, not only growing but living within it that it is its own little biosphere.

Natalie MacLean (00:39):
Do you have a thirst to learn about wine? Do you love stories about wonderfully obsessive people, hauntingly beautiful places, and amusingly awkward social situations? Well, that’s the blend here on the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast. I’m your host, Natalie MacLean. And each week I share with you unfiltered conversations with celebrities in the wine world, as well as confessions from my own tipsy journey as I write my third book on this subject. I’m so glad you’re here. Now, pass me that bottle please and let’s get started. Welcome to episode 237.

(01:25):
What does regenerative viticulture mean? How do healthy vineyards today look dramatically different from those five years ago? And how did the Wine Olympics make the results of the Judgment of Paris undeniable? In today’s episode, you’ll hear those stories and tips that answer those questions in Part Two of my chat with Dr. Mark Gudgel about his new book The Rise of Napa Valley Wineries: How the Judgment of Paris Put California on the Wine Map. You don’t have to have listened to Part One from last week first, but I hope you’ll go back if you missed it after you finish this one.

(02:04):
Now, quick update on my memoir Wine Witch on Fire: Rising from the Ashes of Divorce, Defamation, and Drinking Too Much. I’m just back from an amazing launch event in Halifax where I reconnected with a lot of relatives, former Highland dancing students and friends. And it was just so life-affirming to go back to my roots and the people I knew in my childhood. I grew up in Lower Sackville just outside of Halifax, and my parents are from Cape Breton.

And this coming Monday at 6:30 PM, I’ll be hosting a second launch event in Ottawa at La Cordon Bleu. There are just a few tickets left. The first event on May 31st at La Cordon Bleu was a blast. The food and wine of course were spectacular. I’ll post a link in the show notes where you can register for the June 19th event. If you’ve read the book, I would love to hear from you at [email protected]

(02:59):
If you haven’t got your copy yet and would like to support it and this podcast, please order it from any online book retailer no matter where you live. Every little bit helps spread the message. I’ll put a link in the show notes to all the retailers worldwide. NatalieMaclean.com/237.

Here’s a review from Emily Silva Hawks, who lives in the United States. “Natalie does an excellent job talking about the pressures of the wine industry, especially as a woman. I worked in the wine industry for five years and found myself resonating with much of the book. There is a push to indulge heavily while also proving yourself as one of the guys. I’m so happy she shines a light on this issue.” Thank you, Emily.

Okay, on with the show.

So tell us a bit more about how the book progresses. I think we’ve gotten up to the early pioneers like Robert Mondavi. Then where do you take the story?

Mark Gudgel (03:59):
Yeah. So what really happens, right. If that tasting had been a one off, then you’d have all these people – I personally find the whole root day leaf day thing annoying. But I think…

Natalie MacLean

What is this?

Mark Gudgel

Oh, it’s part of biodynamics. But they’ll say if a wine isn’t tasting well, they’ll blame it on the position of Venus or something like that. I’m not trying to be too flippant, but it’s nonsense in my personal opinion. But I think that it had been a one-off, people would’ve blamed it on a root day or blamed it on the judges. They must have had hot coffee beforehand or the Chablis that they tasted to awaken their palates must have been tainted with TCA or God knows what. People would’ve made something up and written it off. But the thing is, after the Judgment of Paris, it just happened again and again and again. And that was really a lot of the impetus for me writing the book. So you know you had asked me to share a wine with you today, and I will, but I would like to share if I may, a passage from my book that kind of exemplifies this. It’s about an event that took place very shortly thereafter. And again, there are many of these and I tried to write about them all. This is from an event called the Olympia du Vin, the Wine Olympics.

(05:12):
By 1979, the Napa Valley was brimming with people who relocated to wine country to seek their fortunes in wine. Some sought new careers, some investments, some vanity projects, but those like Stu and Charlie, the old guard who alongside Tchelistcheff, Stewart, Grgich, Barrett, Davies, Heitz, Winiarski, the Mondavis, and many others had beat the rush, simply continued to do what they’d always done, making great wine in the beautiful place they felt fortunate to call home. So this is about Stu and Charlie Smith of Smith-Madrone. I’ve already mentioned one Sunday evening during harvest. Stu remembers being up a ladder at the top of the tank. When the phone rang, he climbed back down the ladder to get it. A friend spoke excitedly on the other end of the line. My mom just got back from Europe. He told Stu, and she brought the International Herald to be with her.

(06:03):
Stu waited patiently for the story to get more interesting. After a moment, the friend blurted out, you won the recent competition, Stu. You and Charlie won. In the future, the gravity of this information would not be lost on the Smiths, but in the moment, after yet another 17 hour workday, Stu just wanted to climb back out the ladder so that he could finish his work and get home. Great. He said warily, send it to me. The tasting put on in 1979 by Gault-Millau, comparable to the Michelin guide and touted as the Olympia Du Vin. The Wine Olympics was a truly international affair that far exceeded anything Spurrier or Gallagher ever envisioned. Gault-Millau had declined to cover the Paris tasting, but had certainly taken note of the results. The Judgment of Paris had raised questions. Gault-Millau now sought to answer them in the Wine Olympics. Hundreds of wines from around the world were tasted by expert judges, and the results again were stunning to those who had managed to convince themselves the Judgment of Paris was somehow a fluke.

(07:04):
If Napa had failed to capture anyone’s attention, the Olympia du Vin surely succeeded in doing so. As Stu’s friend had attempted to impress upon him, Smith-Madrone came in first in the world in Riesling, up against the best of Germany, France, and others. It wasn’t only the Smiths who triumphed. You must be mistaken, replied Janet Trefethen into the receiver. And then her mood darkened. If this wasn’t a mistake, perhaps it was some kind of rude joke. I assure you, I am not mistaken said the voice on the other line. Your 1976, it has been named to the Best chardonnay in the world by Gault-Millau.

Janet was teaming with questions. When did this occur? Who organized it? And most of all, how in the hell did a bottle of her wine get to France? Nobody had contacted the Trefethen about entering a competition. The whole thing seemed strange. But if Chateau Montelena and Stags Leap Wine Cellars could do it, then why not Trefethen? She thanked the caller and hung up the phone.

Natalie MacLean (08:01):
Oh, it’s great. You are a great storyteller. I’m so glad you suggested reading a passage because I was just leaning in going, oh.

Mark Gudgel (08:09):
Thank you so much.

Natalie MacLean (08:10):
Great story.

Mark Gudgel (08:12):
Yes, it really is a great story. I was really honoured to be able to tell these stories because I think they’re important. And this is maybe where my book adds to what Tabor already contributed.

Natalie MacLean (08:23):
Sure, yeah, absolutely. If you can weave that all together, and then as the book continues, where do you take it?

Mark Gudgel (08:30):
So subsequent tastings continue to occur and the Americans continue to win to the extent that it gets boring. It gets predictable. I think if you’ve got truly credentialed judges and you taste the best of American wines alongside the best of French, Americans typically win. And of course, I’m a homer, right. I’m an American, so I kind of lean in on that a little bit, but these are my jam for sure. Then it gets tougher. If you’ve never been, Silicon Valley is hell on Earth. It is just a concrete hell of strip malls and it used to be beautiful. And there are places if you work hard enough where you can still find beauty. But then there were people in Napa who went that’s not going to happen here, and they fought like hell to make sure it didn’t. One person I’ve become acquainted with recently working on my next book is Ren Harris.

(09:24):
He and his wife Marilyn, who is a Pelissa, who were an old family in the Valley, did so much to ensure that the valley would not get taken over. And the Davies worked so hard and still do Jack and Jamie’s son Hugh still work so hard. And there were many, many others. The Trefethens who we just mentioned in the book. And I feel rude for not bringing up everyone, but I mean, there are hundreds of people who just went, no we’re not going to pave the Napa Valley. California wanted to build an interstate up Highway 29, and it was this small group of citizens who went hell no. That isn’t going to happen. And they’re the reason that this place is still so beautiful.

Natalie MacLean (10:09):
Because there’s all kinds of laws about not building up on the mountains, keeping the trees there.

Mark Gudgel (10:14):
Absolutely. And not building vineyards up there. Eisele is another one. Randy Dunn. These people that worked so hard to protect the hillsides, protect the riparian corridors, and then to, so the book goes into that goes the threat of fire today and climate change and the work of Napa Green. Napa Green is I think an extraordinary organization that was founded by the Napa Valley vintners, but today is independent and works so hard to try to not only sustain the earth, but they’re now focusing on regenerative viticulture, which I think is just so important and really groundbreaking. And if they can do it in Napa, then they’ll set the tone, right. Then we can all do it, right. Then it can be done in Chile and everywhere else.

Natalie MacLean (10:57):
Tell us about the regenerative efforts that they’re doing. What does that mean, especially as it relates to Napa?

Mark Gudgel (11:03):
Man, I mean, it’s such a diverse topic that Napa Green –  I would encourage everybody to get on their website and check them out – they’ve got these six pillars of sustainability that are really worth looking into. One of which is to do with social justice, which I think is hugely important. We’ve always known that the most important people in wine were often being paid the least and treated the worst. Now, there have been people who have absolutely fought against that. Back in the seventies, Ren Harris, who I mentioned, who founded Paradigm, put together an insurance company to make sure that health insurance could be held by vineyard workers. This was a really progressive idea at that time, and real frankly, still is today because if you want to mistreat people, you still could. But I think many in Napa are united against that.

But Napa Green and regenerative viticulture. I was at a conference last week and they were showing us this massive drone that could fly over and drop bugs, which were dormant because they’d been refrigerated, and they were dropping these bugs on the vineyards of Charles Krug and spreading them. I mean, the things, you know what sheep can contribute.

Natalie MacLean (12:04):
Good bugs, I assume.

Mark Gudgel (12:05):
Good Bugs. Good bugs. Yes, exactly. But what sheep can contribute to vineyards and what no-till practices can do for vineyards, no-till or low till, right. I think it’s a little naive to say that you are never going to till anything if you’re a farmer. But recognizing what tilling does and deliberately limiting how much tillage occurs, the value is.

Natalie MacLean (12:26):
And tilling meaning there’s a tractor that’s turning over the earth.

Mark Gudgel (12:28):
Digging up the earth. Exactly. Perhaps to grind cover crops into it or something like that, which releases carbon, which we don’t want. We don’t mean that.

Natalie MacLean (12:37):
It destroys the microbiome that’s there, all the microbial life.

Mark Gudgel (12:42):
Absolutely. Kills it. And so there used to be this, I think, vision of a beautiful vineyard, which was rows of manicured grapevines with earth in between them. And I think that the new vision for a beautiful vineyard is rows of well-maintained grapevines with a tremendous diversity of life, not only growing, but living within it, and that it is its own little biosphere so to speak.

Natalie MacLean (13:07):
Sure. Sounds more beautiful. The garden with wildlife.

Marl Gudgel

I think so.

Natalie MacLean

So how is California dealing with climate change? Is that in your book as well?

Mark Gudgel (13:17):
A little bit. A little bit, yeah.

Natalie MacLean (13:19):
Okay.

Mark Gudgel (13:20):
And it’s, well, a fair bit slowly which is tough when you feel like something’s urgent. But I was speaking with a winemaker I really respect the other day, who was counseling caution and saying look rushing into these things does not work. And I do think she’s got a point, but there’s a lot that we can do. I think that especially with Napa Green, we’ve recognized that we’re past the point of sustainability. As I wrote in my book, if we resign ourselves to merely sustaining where we are, we have resigned ourselves to a long, slow death. We have to regenerate. But the good news is I think we can. And so I think that’s what we’re looking at. And I think that Napa Valley and many there are truly leading the way.

Natalie MacLean (14:09):
Okay. So was there anything that surprised you while you were researching or writing the book?

Mark Gudgel (14:15):
A lot. A lot. And some of those things were fun, little bits of trivia and some of them were not so fun. So I asked Bernard Portet what I thought was an obvious question. He indicated to me that maybe it was the first time he’d ever been asked, but he made the wine at Clos du Val, and of course his wine won the 1986 tasting. And he’s still involved at Clos du Val today. But the vintage that was entered into the ’76 tasting was, I believe, a ’72, which was the first vintage of Clos du Val. And of course, if they opened their winery, then they didn’t grow those grapes. And so I said, Bernard, where did you get the grapes? And it seemed like the most obvious question. But again, I don’t know that he’d been asked that before. And he told me where he got them.

(15:02):
And it was a blend of 85% Cabernet Sauvignon, 15% Merlot. And I thought it was great because he says, well the Cabernet Sauvignon we got I wish –  I’m not going to impersonate his French accent. I just wish you could hear him – and he said we got it up the road here at what was then something else. And today, I believe is. He said we bought that from them. And he says and the Merlot and he kind of looks into the air. He goes, I don’t remember where I got that. And I just thought that was hilarious. This is arguably one of the more important wines that’s ever been made. We don’t know where the Merlot came from, but we know it was good. We know the winemaker was very talented. I mean, still is.

But then there were other things. There are people who are sort of apologetic. There’s one particular writer who’s kind of praises George Yount – who I think was a real scoundrel.

Natalie MacLean

Praises who?

Mark Gudgel

George Young, whom Yountville is named after. He had the first Rancho. Rancho Caymus. He was the first Americano granted a Mexican Rancho and that it was 12,000 acres of the middle of Napa Valley. So he gifted some to his son-in-laws, a dowry which became Rutherford. And so there’s some real history there, but a lot of these folks were real tiresome, low lifes, if I may.

Natalie MacLean (16:16):
How is he a scoundrel? What’s the dirt on Yount?

Mark Gudgel (16:18):
Well, it’s so interesting because again, there’s this one writer –  and I don’t know the guy. He’s been dead for a hundred and some years, 150 probably –  But there’s one writer who’s like. by all accounts, he was pretty good to the native population. And then there are other writers who literally have written that he had Wappo people scalped. He’s just one of many. Edward Turner Bale, whom the Bale Grist Mill is named after, because he had it put in. Bail was a monster. And the Berryessa brothers, who Lake Berryessa was named after, probably enslaved native populations. And so some of it, it’s like you kind of know some of these things, but when you start actually reading, you just go, gosh. And we still have stuff named after him. But I drove through Custer State Park last year. We still have things named after Custer, my God. And Columbus. I mean, I have a friend who’s a wine lover who just moved to Columbus, Nebraska. I’m like, why is anything named after that guy? He’s just famous for getting lost.

(17:21):
And no scruples. But I don’t know, some of that stuff’s annoying and then. It’s more than annoying. It’s disgusting. But then you look at Napa today or you look at the wine industry today. There are four Black Master Sommeliers in the world, I believe. I know that there are four African Americans. I don’t know because the Court of Master Sommeliers in Europe is separate from the Court of Master Sommeliers in America.  I’m only really acquainted with the Americas. But there are four, only 10% of Master Sommeliers are women. And certainly not because of inferior palates or any nonsense like that. So we got a long ways to go. We got a long ways to go. There is one black woman winemaker in Napa, and she’s extraordinary, but she shouldn’t be alone.

Natalie MacLean (18:08):
So what needs to change to make that progress?

Mark Gudgel (18:12):
Well, first I think we have to talk about it, which is why I made sure to make it a part of a book that it would’ve been easy to leave it out of, right. No one was going to press me too hard on why I didn’t write about climate change or racial inequity or women’s rights in a book on the Judgment of Paris. People would’ve left me alone about that, but I didn’t want to be left alone. I wanted to bring it up. It’s important, and it needs to be dealt with. And so I think we need to talk about it, and then we need to actually do things, right. There’s some great groups out there. The Roots Fund, Badass Women of Wine, Bâtonnage Forum, and others that are, I think, working to try to make those strides. And then there are brilliant winemakers. We mentioned Zelma Long, of course, but Sally Johnson, Carmel Greenberg some really amazing women making wine right now who I think very clearly demonstrates this can be done. And more and more of them all the time. The winemaker at Far Niente I met last week is a brilliant woman, and there are many others.

Natalie MacLean (19:14):
Is there anything you’ve discovered since you wrote the book that you would add to a new edition?

Mark Gudgel (19:20):
There’s interestingly like this history continues. And so I do look forward to writing about tastings that come after, in which I would predict the results will remain consistent. There will be evolution in the wine trade in matters of climate change. I could have done more about climate change and how it’s being addressed. So the timing was sort of fortuitous that my book had not yet come out when Spring Mountain Vineyards filed for bankruptcy but there will be more story there as we see what occurs next, which I don’t know. Mike Grgich just turned a hundred years old, but of course, that was in April, and so we didn’t have the opportunity to, there wasn’t much about that in the book. Stu and Charlie are still making wine up on Spring Mountain, Eisele’ son, Alexander and Catherine still run Volker Eisele Family Estate. And people are just doing incredible things and they’re all worth talking about, which is. My publisher gave me 48,000 words. I wrote 90 and we edited it down to about 54, I think.

Mark Gudgel (20:28):
There’s more to say.

Natalie MacLean (20:30):
What’s your greatest satisfaction in having written this book?

Mark Gudgel (20:33):
The people that tell me I got it right. And that’s not everybody, of course, but so many people have read my book and written kind reviews. Bella Spurrier was quite complimentary, which meant a lot me, because of course her husband is an integral part of this story. So yeah, I think those things. Knowing that maybe I told an important story or maybe even more than one.

Natalie MacLean (20:56):
And where is your ideal place to have a glass of wine?

Mark Gudgel (20:59):
With friends. Where is less important than the company. There are restaurants that I love. I love to drink a glass of wine walking through the vineyard, in particular with friends of mine who may have made it or had a part in making it. But I had a glass of Riesling and a glass of Cabernet, actually from Oakville, in my living room with a couple of our best friends of my wife last night. And that was wonderful, too.

Natalie MacLean (21:26):
Well, you keep teasing us with this Riesling that you’ve got there. So let’s talk about it, Mark.

Mark Gudgel (21:31):
Okay. So I’m going to pull it out of my fridge here in my office.

Natalie MacLean (21:34):
Yes, please do. And I’m going to bring on my, while we’re waiting, my big red from Caymus.

Mark Gudgel (21:43):
Ah, yeah, yeah. Yes, Caymus. So Caymus is named after Rancho Caymus which was the name of the Rancho founded by George Yount.

Natalie MacLean (21:52):
Oh, wow.

Mark Gudgel (21:54):
No extra charge for that.

Natalie MacLean (21:56):
Okay, thank you. So your vintage of this Riesling is it recent or is it older?

Mark Gudgel (22:03):
This is a 2017. Again, these age brilliantly. So I’ve had the ’22.

Natalie MacLean (22:11):
Okay.

Mark Gudgel (22:12):
Just very recently. In fact, I visited this winery last week, but I mean they’re ageless. I haven’t had anything back from the ’80s, but they were making it, and I hope to eventually. But yeah. So I mentioned I was at dinner recently in Omaha with two different Master Sommeliers and I brought that 20 year old bottle of Cabernet from Smith-Madrone. And because I did that at this restaurant, this extraordinary little restaurant which actually is where the introduction to my book is set in Omaha, they said well should we try the Smith-Madrone Riesling since we’re going to drink the cab? And I said, absolutely. And it was the first time they had had it and they were so blown away by it. This is as good as any Riesling in the world by all accounts. It is perfect, I think.

Natalie MacLean (23:07):
Is it a dry Riesling? Yes.

Mark Gudgel (23:09):
Yes. And it’s a German style. It’s always relatively low alcohol to 2017 here is. Well I know it’s against the law not to put it on the label. 12.9% alcohol, which is not low for a Riesling but low for any American wine.

Natalie MacLean (23:27):
Sure.

Mark Gudgel (23:28):
Look at that colour.

Natalie MacLean

Beautiful.

Mark Gudgel

It’s just gorgeous. And the bouquet, I mean.

Natalie MacLean (23:33):
What do you get?

Mark Gudgel (23:35):
Well, the first thing that’s so noteworthy is this telltale petrol, right. The petroleum that we know comes off of these great Grand Cru, Premier Cru Rieslings.

Natalie MacLean (23:46):
What does that come from in your opinion? The petrol smell. And some people think that’s a negative, but I personally love that smell. It reminds me of summer at the cottage and an outboard motor and the water and everything.

Mark Gudgel (23:58):
Yeah. I am not adept enough at winemaking that I want to speculate. I know that if you called up Stu and Charlie or many other people they could tell you immediately what’s causing their wine to smell like that. But I just know I like it. And then it leads quickly into some really beautiful stone fruits as well as a little bit of tropical fruit, green apple. It’s complex and beautiful and perfect with food. This is the white wine I would gladly pair with steak, but

Natalie MacLean (24:26):
Why do you think it works with steak? Because people wouldn’t typically think of Riesling with steak.

Mark Gudgel (24:31):
I never had either. I have a good friend who’s an Advanced Somm who throws some kind of tasting ideas my way frequently and pairing ideas. And one of them is Syrah with Indian food which you would think this massive, meaty wine typically is probably going to struggle with those sauces, right. No, no, no, no. Order a smorgasboard of Indian food and open your favorite Syrah and just be prepared to be blown away. But another is a nicely aged Riesling with steak. And I don’t know why it works, doesn’t make any sense to me at all. But it’s because most things, other than Napa cabs, don’t hold up to steak. This will.

Natalie MacLean (25:05):
Well, maybe it’s the caramelization of the steak and the petrol of the wine. There’s kind of something there in common, because I do find sometimes a buttery Chardonnay will work with a caramelized steak because of the common notes or whatever. But yeah, I’m with you. I love the petrol. Some say comes from the nature of the grapes, some say from the soils or the age as it ages it gets more petroly. But I’m a big fan of it. You could call it flinty or stony if you wanted to.

Mark Gudgel (25:31):
Me, too. It’s funny because people –  I don’t know – we need to remember that our preferences are only that. And if you don’t like brettanomyces then don’t buy those wines.

Natalie MacLean (25:45):
Right, the barnyard kind of smell. Yeah.

Mark Gudgel (25:47):
Yeah. I mean, all of Randy Dunn’s old Cabernets up until like 2004 have really heavy notes of brett, but they’re famous for a reason. They’re glorious. They’re so good. And if you don’t like that, then don’t buy ’em because they’re not cheap. But don’t tell us that it’s a flaw for goodness sake.

Natalie MacLean (26:09):
Speaking of the price, what’s the cost of that? Or a current vintage of that Riesling? What would it be approximately?

Mark Gudgel (26:16):
I want to say 35.  It’ll depend a little on where you’re at. Of course, the restaurants mark it up more, but yeah it’s not dramatic. It’s a really reasonably priced wine.

Natalie MacLean (26:25):
It’s affordable for a great wine. Obviously. That is amazing. So I mean, the time has flown but I’d love to do a few quick questions and answers a lightning round with you, Mark, if you’re good.

Mark Gudgel (26:36):
I’m having so much fun. I’m in.

Natalie MacLean (26:38):
Okay, cool. What’s the last great book you read?

Mark Gudgel (26:42):
Well, I mentioned And The Mountains Echo and I absolutely loved it. But I didn’t read that recently. I’m reading Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows to my son right now which brings me great joy. And I reread Born To Run recently, which I think everyone’s a runner some people don’t realize it. But the answer to every question for me is go for a run. I’m feeling happy. Good. Go for a run. I need to think. Good. Go for a run. I’m sad. Perfect. Go for a run. I’m tired. Go for a run. I have a lot of energy. Go for a run. And I think Born To Run reinforces that idea because that’s how we survived in Neanderthals didn’t. It is because we’re long distance runners.

Natalie MacLean (27:20):
Well, going to all kinds of history. That’s fascinating. Is there something that you believe about wine with, which some people might disagree strongly?

Mark Gudgel (27:29):
Oh, absolutely. Many things, but I think the most important people ask me all the time, what’s great wine? And my answer never varies. Whatever you like, just so long as you can afford it. So I’m sure Petrus is a great wine, but someone asked me the other day what I thought of Petrus, and I laughed at them. Never had Petrus. You know why I’ve never had Petrus? Because I can buy one and a half cases of Paradigm Cabernet Sauvignon for the cost of one bottle of Petrus, and I love Paradigm Cabernet. But having said that drink what you want and don’t, goodness gracious, if people want to get judgemental, that’s their issue. If people are pretentious and snobby about wine, go away. That is just not, that’s not what this community is about, man. Drink what you like. Learn new things. Always try the new wine. I’ve been doing a lot of work in the Balkans lately. Best Syrah I’ve ever had in my life was made in Montenegro. I’ve spent a lot of time drinking Syrah in Washington state. The best Syrah I’ve ever had in my life was made in Montenegro. Just try new stuff, enjoy it, and be confident enough to go well I like this so I’m drinking it.

Natalie MacLean (28:35):
Sure. Absolutely. Absolutely. Tell us about a favorite childhood food that you loved and what you would pair it with in terms of wine today.

Mark Gudgel (28:45):
Well, I’m afraid I was a big fan of McDonald’s as a child, but you can’t fix, I can’t fix that anymore. I know. My children, I passed it on to them, the poor things. They love Happy Meal. I really, really enjoy steak. I’m from Nebraska, this is beef country, and in my mind, there is nothing better than Cabernet Sauvignon with a well done steak, specifically Napa cabs. They’re big and robust and stand on their own, but they’re so beautiful with that steak. I just love it.

Natalie MacLean (29:16):
Yeah,  great match. Do you have a favourite wine gadget?

Mark Gudgel (29:22):
I’ve got a lot that I think are really silly. I don’t feel like I should probably sit here and malign $500 cork screws, but I have been saving up. I don’t have one yet, but there’s that corkscrew Ah So, right? That opens old bottles, and I’m good with.

Natalie MacLean (29:41):
Ah So with the tongs.

Mark Gudgel (29:42):
Yes, Ah So also has the tongs, and then this thing has a cork screw as well. So you screw the cork screw down, and then you work the Ah So around it. And it always perfectly removes the cork. They cost a couple hundred bucks, but if you’re drinking old wine, I think it’s worth it. So I’m excited about that, but I’ll admit that I don’t own one yet.

Natalie MacLean (29:59):
Oh, that’s all right. They are useful. I just got one recently because they squeezed those old corks, which can easily fall apart because they’re so dry.

Mark Gudgel (30:07):
You don’t have to shove more than one old cork into a bottle that you were excited about to go okay we need to figure this out.

Natalie MacLean (30:14):
So if you could share a bottle of wine with anyone outside the wine world, living or dead, who would that be? And which bottle would you open? And what would you ask them?

Mark Gudgel (30:24):
Outside the wine world? Well, I’m going to get a little sentimental. My honeymoon in Napa. My wife has stopped drinking alcohol, which is a great choice for her. It’s good for her health. She doesn’t try to inflict that upon me. She’s great about it. But we honeymooned and wine country in 2013, and my cellar is full of 2013s, and if one day she and I could pull the cork on one of those and just drink it and spend that time together, just one glass of wine, I would love to have that one more time.

Natalie MacLean (30:57):
Ah, that’s nice. That’s great. And if you could put up a billboard in downtown San Francisco, what would it say?

Mark Gudgel (31:03):
I just photographed a billboard in downtown San Francisco that I thought was really remarkable. And one of the things is that the billboards in downtown San Francisco are all about technology that you don’t need. It’s really annoying. So I photographed the one billboard I’ve seen in San Francisco that I thought was meaningful, and I will read it to you. I could paraphrase it, but I can just pull up my Instagram here where I posted it. And I just pulled up my Instagram and you are the top hit Wine Witch on Fire. Your book comes out the day after mine, and I can’t wait to read it.

Natalie MacLean (31:36):
Thank you.

Mark Gudgel (31:37):
Absolutely. Okay, so here it is. It says, Hey, San Francisco, this is a sign you’re not doing enough to fight anti-semitism.  And it’s this massive, I don’t know if we’ll show up here, but it’s this big billboard that I photographed off the interstate. And yeah, we’re not doing enough to fight anti-semitism. We’re not doing enough to fight racism. We’re not doing enough to empower women, but we could be. And so damnit, let’s get a move on.

Natalie MacLean (32:03):
Yeah, that’s a good message. It’s a good pattern to interrupt. Which wine would you want to serve at your funeral? Not to get morbid, but.

Mark Gudgel (32:12):
No, it’s fine. All of them.

Natalie MacLean (32:13):
All of them.

Mark Gudgel (32:14):
We’ll see what my children wind up enjoying. I mean, if they’re wine drinkers, they can have my collection. I have a nice cellar. But if they’re not, pull the corks. I’ve got a lot of great wine down there that I’m probably not going to get to, and I just want people to have a good time.

Natalie MacLean (32:33):
Lovely. I want to be invited. Not that I want you to kick off anytime soon, but sounds like a good party.

Mark Gudgel (32:39):
No ones ever said I’d like to be at your funeral.

Natalie MacLean (32:42):
It’s going to be a good one. As we wrap up our conversation, is there anything we haven’t covered that you’d like to mention, Mark?

Mark Gudgel (32:52):
So much. I love talking about wine. I could do this all day, but I’ll just add the project I’m working on now is a book about Oakville. And Oakville is one of the nested AVAs in the Napa Valley, right. It is where Robert Mondavi opened his winery. It’s where the To Kalon Vineyard is, and so many important wineries and important people more so are there. That’s where Ren Harris is. My friends, Barry and Jennifer Waitte are in Oakville. The Nickel Family setup shop in Oakville. So many. It’s such an extraordinary place, and it’s very, very small, but so rich with history. I got to spend just a little time recently with Graham and Sarah MacDonald, with Bonny, the founder of Silver Oak and Lisa, and so many terrific people, and now I get to tell their stories, and I’m really excited about what comes next.

Natalie MacLean (33:48):
That’s great. Do you have a projected published date for that one? Or you’re still sort of in the middle of it?

Mark Gudgel (33:53):
We’re at the front end of it right now, and there are a lot of stories to tell, so it’s going to take a while. But yeah, that’s. Oakville is where Nils Venge made the first wine ever to earn a hundred points in the United States. It was the ’85 Groth Cabernet Sauvignon. I drink more of their Merlot because I can afford it. But yeah, it’s just the stories. The stories, it’s so much fun.

Natalie MacLean (34:18):
Oh, that’s terrific. So where can people get in touch with you, find you and your book online? And show your book again on the video, please? Yeah, so we can all get a good look at it again, because it’s available for pre-order now, but it’ll be published by the time this episode is published.

Mark Gudgel (34:32):

So I would encourage you to go to your small family owned neighborhood bookstore, whether that’s the Napa Book Mine or the Plains Trading Company or the Book Worm or any other and pre-order it. You can pre-order it on Amazon, but of course I think the former option is superior. But wherever you buy it, I’ll be glad that you did. And you can track me down I’m actually working on MarkGudgel.com right now. It was up and I realized I didn’t love it, so we took it down and worked tinkering with it. And I have some friends helping me, but you can track me down. Check out Vin Nebraska, V I N Nebraska. So two N’s in there, and you can reach me through that. And I’m on social media. I’m on Twitter, unfortunately, I’m still. And I’m on Instagram, which I kind of enjoy. So Mark Gudgel there, G U D G E L. So please, track me down. I’d love to hear from you. I’d love to talk wine with anybody who wants to.

Natalie MacLean (35:28):
Awesome. And we’ll put all those links in the show notes as well if people are scrambling to remember what those were. All right, Mark. Well, I raised my glass to you. Here’s to the success of your book, and your launch

Mark Gudgel

And yours.

Natalie MacLean

Congratulations, and I’ve really enjoyed chatting with you. I will say goodbye for now, but don’t hang up.

Mark Gudgel (35:46):
Thank you. I appreciate it, Natalie. It’s really been a pleasure.

Natalie MacLean (35:50):
Oh, thank you, Mark. Great chat.

(35:58):
Well, there you have it. I hope you enjoyed my chat with Mark. Here are my takeaways. Mark’s definition of regenerative viticulture was really helpful. I especially like his observation that the new vision for a beautiful vineyard is rows of well maintained grapevine with tremendous diversity of life living within them. Number two, I agree with him that if we resign ourselves to where we are in the wine industry, we have resigned ourselves to a long slow death. Number three, I enjoyed his story about how the Wine Olympics made the results of the judgment of Paris undeniable. And four, it’s also undeniable that the wine industry has a long way to go with just four African American Master Sommeliers and only 10% of Master Sommelier are women.

In the show notes, you’ll find the full transcript of my conversation with Mark, links to his website and books, the video versions of these conversations on Facebook and YouTube live, and where you can order my memoir online now no matter where you live. That’s all in the show notes at NatalieMacLean.com/237. Email me if you have a sip, tip, or question at [email protected]. If you missed episode 42, go back and take a listen. I chat with the popular Food Network host Kevin Brauch about his travels in the wine world. I’ll share a short clip with you now to whet your appetite.

Kevin Brauch (37:24):
There is a lack of bravery around wine world for people that don’t know about wine. Just remember in the room, it was like, what does it taste like? And people are afraid to say cotton candy, right? But we know that that’s one of the culinary descriptors, or candy in and of itself, earth wet leaves. We know all of these things. People are afraid to say them for the first time. And yet once you do you’re so empowered.

The wine tastes to you like the wine tastes to you. I can read the label. I can read what Robert Parker thinks of this wine. I can read what Billy Munley, who I adore and love, thinks of this wine. But at the end of the day, I’m only left with me. It’s daunting. Nobody says that with beer. Like, guys, don’t drink beer and go I get a little bit of the hops from the seashore by Seattle and the nose of dog hair.

Natalie MacLean (38:28):
If you like this episode, please email or tell one friend about it this week, especially someone who’d be interested in the wines tips and stories we shared. You won’t want to miss next week when I chat with Carolyn Hurst, president of Westcott Vineyards in Niagara, Ontario. Since 2017, she has been the chair of the Ontario Craft Wineries representing more than 100 wineries in the province. We talk about the issues facing the Ontario wine industry as well as her personal and colorful experiences in the business. Thank you for taking the time to join me here. I hope something great is in your glass this week, perhaps a buttery California Chardonnay.

You don’t want to miss one juicy episode of this podcast, especially the secret full body bonus episodes that I don’t announce on social media. So subscribe for free now at NatalieMacLean.com/subscribe. Meet me here next week. Cheers.

 

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