Who Are The 10 Great Families of Wine? Fiona Morrison Gives Us A Tour Through Europe

Amazing Gains
Feb26th

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Introduction

How do you tame a grape like Merlot which actually has higher sugar and alcohol levels than Cabernet Sauvignon? What’s the little-known history behind the cult wines of Le Pin in Bordeaux that sell for as much as $10,000 a bottle when first released and then go up from there at auction? Why is it an advantage to have many stakeholders in family-owned estates?

In this episode of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, I’m chatting with Fiona Morrison, author of the terrific book 10 Great Wine Families: A Tour Through Europe.

You can find the wines we discussed here.

 

Giveaway

Two of you are going to win a copy of her terrific book, 10 Great Wine Families: A Tour Through Europe.

 

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To qualify, all you have to do is email me at [email protected] and let me know that you’ve posted a review of the podcast.

It takes less than 30 seconds: On your phone, scroll to the bottom here, where the reviews are, and click on “Tap to Rate.”

After that, scroll down a tiny bit more and click on “Write a Review.” That’s it!

I’ll choose two people randomly from those who contact me.

Good luck!

 

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Highlights

  • How did studying literature at the University of Exeter spark Fiona’s interest in the wine industry?
  • How did Fiona meet her husband, Jacques Thienpont of Le Pin?
  • What’s the history behind the renowned Le Pin wines?
  • How would Fiona characterize the 2023 and 2024 vintages of Le Pin?
  • What is it like managing the limited production and high prices of Le Pin?
  • How Le Pin tames Merlot grapes into its highly sought-after wines?
  • What were the challenges Fiona faced in writing about the Thienpont family of which she is a part?
  • How does Fiona’s book, 10 Great Wine Families, differ from other books on similar topics?
  • Which aspects of Maurice Healy’s book, Stay With Me Flagons, inspired Fiona’s writing?
  • What are some of the elements that characterize successful multi-generational wine businesses?
  • How did Fiona choose which ten families to profile in her book?

 

Key Takeaways

  • How do you tame a grape like Merlot which actually has higher sugar and alcohol levels than Cabernet Sauvignon?
    • Merlot is a grape that can be very fleshy, Fiona observes. It doesn’t like hot weather. It likes to keep its feet wet. If you shade the fruit a bit and let the grapes ripen, this dappled light effect, then you get a lovely balance, and elegant wine. But if you crop strongly and take off the leaves, the wine can get quite vulgar quickly, very sugary, much more jammy. There’s much more sugar and alcohol in Merlot than there is in Cabernet, which may surprise some people. So when we tame Merlot, what we do in the cellar is very little pumping over. We use infusions rather than pumping over and soaking the grapes to get the maceration, like when you’ve got your tea bag in your tea. You have to wet the cap so that it doesn’t get dry and tannic. But you’re just doing that. You’re not punching down or anything like that.
  • What’s the little-known history behind the cult wines of Le Pin in Bordeaux that sell for as much as $10,000 a bottle when first released, then go up from there at auction?
    • As Fiona explains, Le Pin means pine tree. The estate was called Chateau du Pin before Jacques bought it in 1979. It’s a fairy tale story. He had heard from his uncle, who had their sister estate, Vieux Chateau Certan, that a magical one hectare of land was coming up for sale. And the family thought it was too expensive to buy, so Jacques, who wasn’t married at the time, said, well, one hectare, it’s a vegetable garden, I think I can manage that myself. He started off very modestly with a barrel borrowed here, a tank borrowed there, and very artisanal winemaking. Then all hell broke loose in a good way with the release of the 1982 vintage which was tasted by top US expert Robert Parker and it became one of Parker’s first 100 point wines. And the rest is history.
  • Why is it an advantage to have many stakeholders in family-owned estates?
    • Fiona notes that much of the book is about how you resolve family conflicts in a business and how you prepare the next generation to take over. She says that having lots of shareholders is actually easier than having just one or two heirs, who face a lot of pressure to take over in the business when in fact they may not want to. Whereas, if you’ve got 120 shareholders, chances are there’s at least a few that are actually interested in wine, and will go into it. Lamberto Frescobaldi, who is 30th generation of his family, has instituted a very strict qualifying process for anyone who wants to come into the business. They have to be wine lovers, university-educated and have some business and wine experience. So you can’t just be to the manor born. You really do need to have paid your dues before you get into this business. It’s not a privileged business. It’s probably one of the most complicated businesses, and it’s very easy to lose money and it’s quite difficult to make money.

 

Start The Conversation: Click Below to Share These Wine Tips

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The trend now is to go for more elegant, appetizing wines, sliding away from the big, blockbuster wines. - Fiona Morrison Fiona Morrison Click to tweet

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More estates have been lost out of the family because the next generation does not want to take over than from conflicts with people fighting for the position. - Fiona Morrison Fiona Morrison Click to tweet

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The fact that Le Pin is expensive and there’s very little made puts us on our toes during the harvest. - Fiona Morrison Fiona Morrison Click to tweet

 

About Fiona Morrison MW

Fiona Morrison is an international Master of Wine, author, writer and wine merchant who lives in Belgium and Bordeaux and holds both British and Belgian nationalities. Trained in the UK, France and the USA, her career has covered many facets of the wine trade in Europe and the USA. She began working for Paterno Imports in Chicago before joining Seagram Chateau & Estates in New York under the legendary Abdallah Simon. In 1992, she returned to Europe to become international spokesperson for C.I.V.B. (Bureau des Vins de Bordeaux).

She became a Master of Wine in 1994 after studying in America and France. Fiona has served on the boards of the Masters of Wine and the Masters of Wine Endowment Fund, and has organized several international M.W. symposia. She has been a consultant and board member of several international companies in the UK and Belgium.

She is married to Jacques Thienpont of Le Pin and currently runs the Thienpont family wine merchant business in Belgium and France. The family owns three estates on Bordeaux’s right bank: Le Pin (Pomerol), L’IF (St Emilion) and L’Hêtre (Castillon). Winner of several awards for her writing, including the James Beard Award, her latest book, “10 Great Wine Families”, has been published internationally. She was awarded the title of Officier de l’Ordre de Léopold, the most important military and civil order in the Kingdom of Belgium, in 2019 for her services to the Belgian wine world.

 

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Transcript

Natalie MacLean 00:00:00 How do you tame a grape like Merlot, which actually has higher sugar and alcohol levels than Cabernet Sauvignon? What’s the little known history behind the cult wines of Lupin in Bordeaux? I guess they say at Le Pen. they sell for as much as $10,000 a bottle when first released, and then go up from there at auction. Why is it an advantage to have many stakeholders in a family owned estate? In today’s episode, you’ll hear the stories and tips that answer those questions in our chat with Fiona Morrison, Master of Wine and author of the terrific book Ten Great Wine Families A Tour Through Europe. By the end of our conversation, you’ll also discover how studying literature at the University of Exeter sparked Fiona’s interest in the wine industry. How Fiona met her husband shocked the impact of the famous Le Pen Winery. How Fiona characterizes the 2023 and 2024 vintages of Le Pen and Bordeaux. More generally, what it’s like managing the extremely limited production and high prices of Le Pen, the challenges Fiona faces in writing about her own family, the impulse how Fiona’s book Ten Great Wine Families differ from other books about family, dynasties, dynasties, whatever you prefer.

Natalie MacLean 00:01:29 How Fiona chose which ten families to profile in her book with so many top notch European wineries. Some of the elements that characterise successful multi-generational wine businesses, and which aspects of Maurice Healey’s classic book stay With me. Flanagan’s inspired Fiona’s writing, and I gotta say, I love that book to look it up. It is beautiful. Do you have a thirst to learn about wine? Do you love stories about wonderfully obsessive people, hauntingly beautiful places, and amusingly awkward social situations? Well, that’s the blend here on the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast. I’m your host, Natalie MacLean, and each week I share with you unfiltered conversations with celebrities in the wine world, as well as confessions from my own tipsy journey as I write my third book on this subject. I’m so glad you’re here. Now pass me that bottle, please, and let’s get started. So I’m just back from Toronto and a whirlwind romance of four Valentine’s Day television segments, including The Social Global’s morning Show, CTV Morning Live, and Citi TV’s Breakfast Television.

Natalie MacLean 00:02:55 even though V-Day has come and gone, I think you’ll find the topics interesting. And the wine pics, of course, are still relevant. So let’s start with the social. Canada’s largest daytime TV show, it has about 3.6 million viewers. Whether you’re planning a special celebration or just want to add some spark to date night wine can help set the mood. But which wines should you choose? And what exactly do all those sensual wine terms mean? Joining us today is Natalie MacLean, who offers Canada’s most popular online wine classes and largest wine review site at Natalie MacLean. Com. And this is where I chime in. Great to be back with you, ladies. Wine is all about seducing our senses and imagination, and some of the compounds that give wine its sexy descriptors are also found in human pheromones that attract us to each other. Hello there. So when you learn to speak the love language of wine fluidly, it becomes a poem for your palate. Let’s start with the term cuvée. What is it? A cuvée in wine is like finding your perfect match.

Natalie MacLean 00:04:09 It’s all about the blend. Every relationship is a cuvée. And a lot of couples combine their tastes in TV shows and pizza toppings. The trick is in finding the right blend and then mixing it up a little. Most sparkling wines are a blend of Chardonnay, Pinot Noir, and Panamanian grapes. The Chardonnay adds elegance to the blend, while Pinot Noir and Pinot give it more depth. It’s like a more socially acceptable menage a trois at a dinner party. Please try the Mumm Napa prestige cuvée. Founded in California by France’s leading champagne house, G.H. Mumm. It’s now become Napa’s signature sparkling wine. This wine features luxurious notes of white peach and toasted almond. I’d pair this with citrus marinated grilled shrimp skewers, pan seared scallops with lemon zest, or roasted Brussels sprouts with a honey glaze. And now for the toast. Here’s to our unique cuvée of love and laughter. All right. Next up is terroir. How does this apply to wine? The unique environment in which the vines grow, the soil, climate and geography influenced the style and taste of wines from that region.

Natalie MacLean 00:05:29 Just as our individual backgrounds shape who we are in a relationship, every love story and every wine is unique and influenced by its surroundings. Or terroir is also a reminder that, much like choosing a partner, you can’t predict everything from the outside. Sometimes you have to dig a little deeper to find those hidden qualities that make something or someone truly extraordinary. So try the Stoneleigh Organic Sauvignon Blanc from the cool region of Marlborough, New Zealand. It offers terrific notes of green apple and lime zest. It would pair beautifully with lemon herb roast chicken. The wine’s bright acidity and citrus notes cut through the richness of the roasted chicken, while its subtle components will go beautifully with the crispy golden skin, especially when served with buttery mashed potatoes and roasted asparagus. Another great match would be a creamy mushroom risotto, where the wine zesty acidity cut through the earthy depth of the mushrooms and richness of the risotto. A sprinkle of parmesan and a drizzle of truffle oil elevate the pairing to restaurant level indulgence. Stanley’s terroir is especially vibrant because the soil is teeming with microbial life since they don’t use synthetic pesticides and herbicides.

Natalie MacLean 00:06:57 That results in a wine that tastes like the place where it’s from. And now for our toast to our roots. May they run deep and nourish everything we share. All right. Next up, we have silky, silky wines. They sound intriguing. So a silky wine is all about texture like this Lola Nero Red sparkling, which is a pinot noir blend from Pelee Island, Ontario. Think of a silky wine like a smooth embrace from someone wearing satin, seamlessly sending a shiver down your back and making you wonder why anyone bothers with skinny jeans. So try this Lola Nero Red that offers aromas of fleshy, ripe red cherries and a kiss of spice. Pinot noir known for its bright berry flavors, earthy undertones, and silky texture, pairs beautifully with duck confit. The wine’s vibrant acidity cuts through the richness of the tender, slow cooked duck, while its savory notes complement the crispy skin and fragrant herbs, especially when served with a side of roasted fingerling potatoes and a cherry reduction sauce. Another irresistible pairing is wild mushroom and truffle pasta, where the Pinot noir forest floor aromas and delicate tannins enhance the umami depth of mushrooms and the luxurious creamy truffle sauce, creating a rich yet balanced experience.

Natalie MacLean 00:08:27 I’m getting so hungry. Are you so? Incidentally, Pinot Noir is known as the Heartbreak Grape, which may be the theme for some people on Valentine’s Day. All but it actually refers to how difficult this wine is to grow and make, since it’s susceptible to disease and rot. But when it’s good, it’s great and silky smooth on the palate. What are legs when it comes to wine and why are they important? So those seductive streams running down the inside of your glass after swirling aren’t just for show. They actually indicate the wine’s alcohol content and viscosity. Higher alcohol wines will be the most viscous, with beautiful, slow moving legs. Beyond the obvious physical allure, legs suggest richness and depth in wine, and they can also symbolize the allure and complexity of a partner. Hello! As those legs slide down the glass and intertwine with each other, think of them like doing a slow dance with your loved one or something else where your legs entwine. The tree is Cabernet Sauvignon from Niagara offers luxuriously ripe, dark fruit and a voluptuous texture.

Natalie MacLean 00:09:42 It’s rich, round and deeply, deeply satisfying. I’d pair this with grilled portobello mushrooms, steaks drizzled with aged balsamic vinegar and fresh herbs. Flame kissed asparagus tips with truffle oil and sea salt or pan seared cauliflower steaks with golden brown caramelization and garlic butter. And here’s our toast. Here’s to the legs that brought us together. Yours, mine and those in this wine. Yes, this podcast is turning out to be the Daniel Steele romance novel edition. Anyway, stay with me. Finally, we’re going to talk about the finish of a wine. What does this mean? At this point, the hosts, especially Jess Allen, could not even get the question out. We were laughing so hard. I’ll put a link to the video that you can watch, but oh my gosh, the innuendo was flying all around and she just died after I started my first sentence to define it. So here we go. So after you Swallow the wine. The finish is the lingering aroma you still detect after swallowing it.

Natalie MacLean 00:10:52 A long finish of six seconds or more indicates quality and complexity, and like most sensual pleasures in life, longer is better. Honey. I’d like you to try the Miraval Rosé from Provence with its bright citrus and strawberry notes. This wine is incredibly well made by the famous parent family that also make Chateau Bo Castell. This is also the wine that Angelina Jolie and Brad Pitt originally purchased. He remains the majority shareholder after their split, so you could say that a finish in a relationship also represents the lasting, positive impressions we leave on each other’s hearts, even when we’re no longer together. Our love goes on. Angie, I still have your tattoos on my arms. Anyway, Miraval Rosé, with its notes of wild strawberries and a touch of minerality, pairs beautifully with a classic Nicoya salad. The wine’s crisp acidity and delicate fruitiness enhance the briny olives, seared tuna and fresh vegetables, creating a light yet flavorful match. Another fantastic pairing would be grilled shrimp with a garlic lemon butter sauce, where the rosés, bright citrus notes and subtle salinity complement the sweetness of the shrimp while balancing the richness of the butter for a perfectly refreshing bite.

Natalie MacLean 00:12:17 And now for our toast to the moments that linger long and lovely. Well past midnight. Did I put you to sleep? All right. Next week I’ll share the equally fun segment we did on breakfast television, pairing wine with each stage of a relationship from first date jitters to getting ghosted, to getting engaged and celebrating an anniversary. After that, I’ll be doing segments about Saint Patrick’s Day wine, whiskey and beer, as well as great wines and spirits for spring, Easter, Earth Day and Mother’s Day and yes, Father’s Day. So if you have any wines, whiskeys, beers, other spirits cocktails to suggest that I should feature, please let me know. Meanwhile, I’m still reviewing my favorite wines and other drinks on Instagram at Natalie MacLean wine. Connect with me there. At long last, back to today’s guest. Two of you will win copies of Fiona’s beautiful book, The Ten Great Wine Families A Tour through Europe. All you have to do is email me to let me know you’d like to win.

Natalie MacLean 00:13:27 I also still have two copies of Rosemary George’s book The Wines of Languedoc, so I will choose four winners randomly from those who contact me at Nathalie at Natalie MacLean. Com. In other bookish news, if you’re reading the paperback or e-book or listening to the audiobook of my memoir wine, which on fire rising from the ashes of divorce, defamation and drinking too much, that’s a perfect Valentine’s Day book, if I don’t say so myself. It’s a national bestseller in one of Amazon’s best books of the year. I’d love to hear from you and Natalie at Natalie MacLean. Com. I would be happy to send you a beautifully designed, personally signed book. Plates for copies you buy or give as gifts. This book and the wines in it pair beautifully with burning his love letters. I’ll put a link in the show notes to all retailers worldwide at Natalie MacLean dot com. Forward slash 3 to 6. The paperback usually arrives within a day or two of ordering. The e-book and audiobook are instantly available. Okay, on with the show.

Natalie MacLean 00:14:34 Fiona Morrison is a master of wine, wine author and merchant who lives in Bordeaux and Belgium. Educated in Britain, France and the USA, her career has spanned many facets of the wine trade. She began working for Paternal Imports in Chicago before joining Seagram Chateau and Estates in New York in 1992. She returned to Europe to become the international spokesperson for the Bordeaux Wine Bureau. She is married to Jacques, the Company of Le Pen fame, and currently manage the Thompson family negotiation business. Winner of several awards for her writing, including the James Beard Foundation Award, her latest book, Ten Great Wine Families, was published internationally. She was awarded the title of officer of the Order of Leopold, the most important military and civil order in the Kingdom of Belgium, in 2019, for her services to the Belgium wine world. She joins us now from her home in Balmoral. Welcome, Fiona. It’s so great to have you with us.

Fiona Morrison 00:15:36 That it’s fun to be here. Thank you for inviting me.

Natalie MacLean 00:15:39 Oh, my pleasure, our pleasure.

Natalie MacLean 00:15:41 All right, so while you were studying literature at the University of Exeter, you joined the wine tasting team. Tell us of what happened.

Fiona Morrison 00:15:50 Well, English universities tend to have this great tradition, but they feel that part of your education should be to taste wine. And it still exists today. So there was a wonderful wine tasting club, very male dominated. Luckily, I was admitted to it quite early and we realised that there was a wine tasting competition going on between various universities in Britain. So we entered it as an amateur team and we beat all local universities around us, and we went on to win what was called the Hepworth Trophy, which was an extra against all the top universities. The prize was a trip to Bordeaux to do the harvest for one week. I say the second price is probably the trip to go to Bordeaux to do the harvest for two weeks, never having done a harvest before. It was pretty backbreaking but riotous and riotous and and fun and ebullient. And it was a great vintage, and it really made me want to get into the wine business after I graduated.

Natalie MacLean 00:16:55 And did you work at a variety of estates, or was there one where you were? Well, my.

Fiona Morrison 00:16:59 Father banned me in those days. Wine business is not a business for a woman to go into. Go to. I went to Sorbonne in Paris and got a master’s there first and really polished up my French. And then I went to the States and got a business degree. And having done that, because it’s quite difficult even in those days, I said, right now I can do whatever I like. And the great opportunity to go and work for two wonderful wine companies when I was in the States.

Natalie MacLean 00:17:27 Yeah, you certainly have the credentials. Now, tell us how you met your husband, Jack? Am I pronouncing this correctly?

Fiona Morrison 00:17:33 Temple in French. It’s temple Inn in Flanders, which is our part of Belgium. It’s tiene Pont. But if I say temple in Belgium, they think I’m completely not a snob. And if I say tin hunt in France, no one understands. So I probably have been one of the only people who married a man with two surnames.

Fiona Morrison 00:17:53 But I met him in Bordeaux. His cousin was a great friend of mine in Paris, and we studied in master wine together, and she was always talking to me about Jack. And I said, well, I don’t really need to be set up with anyone. What I really want to do is go and taste his incredible wine. So I met him at a dinner during the on primeur week in Bordeaux, which is a very important week in the springtime, when all the chateau release for tasting the wine that they made the year before. I was at a dinner tasting and sitting next to him, and he said, would you like to come and see the people tomorrow And the rest is history. Wow.

Natalie MacLean 00:18:31 It’s great. So you got more than just a tasting. You got a husband coming to this tasting?

Fiona Morrison 00:18:36 Yes, I got a husband as well. Yeah, and we’ve been married for over 25 years.

Natalie MacLean 00:18:40 Oh, congratulations.

Fiona Morrison 00:18:42 And we still work really well together.

Natalie MacLean 00:18:44 That’s great. I guess they say wine is a better social lubricant than orange juice, so must help.

Natalie MacLean 00:18:50 In some ways.

Fiona Morrison 00:18:51 It certainly isn’t. I was terribly afraid that we would be just talking vino babble for the whole of our marriage, but I think that what happens is because it’s so lowest common denominator, you don’t take it for granted, but it’s a great platform for which you have all sorts of other conversations.

Natalie MacLean 00:19:08 Yes, that’s true. And wine does lend itself to every other facet of human endeavor. So exactly. So you absolutely know the pin. I mean, it’s one of the most renowned wines, but tell us what it’s named after.

Fiona Morrison 00:19:19 Well, it’s actually Le Pan in France. Yes. So actually part sounds rather like pine in French, which is bread, and all of our states are called after trees. We have a great fascination for trees anyway. But la means a pine tree, and there was a pine tree on the estate, and estate was called Chateau Dupin before Jack bought it in 1979. It’s a fairy tale story. He had heard from his uncle, who had a sister estate to settle.

Fiona Morrison 00:19:53 But this wonderful one hectare of land was coming up for sale, and the family thought it was too expensive to buy to add to your chateaux at all. So Jack, who wasn’t married at the time, said, well, one hectare, it’s a vegetable garden. I think I can manage that myself. He’d learnt how to make wine at BC and Chateau said so. He started off really very modestly with a barrel board here, a tank brother and very artisanal wine making. And that was in 79 and of course, all hell broke loose with the release of the 1982 vintage, which was tasted by top experts, having languished for including Parker but a lot of other people, and languished for the first two inches vintages, also on the shelves of negocios. And then when the famous 82 came out, which became one of Parker’s first 100 point wines, everyone was rushing at the door and Jack wasn’t quite sure what to do with anyone. But the rest is history in LA. Today has become a very sought after wine.

Fiona Morrison 00:21:01 The fact that it is expensive and is very little made kind of puts us on our toes during the harvest. We have slight butterflies in our stomachs because the expectations are so high, but we really enjoy making it and we haven’t grown that much. It’s now about a seven acre, 80 acre estate, but all the vineyards are A contiguous Soviet soil is the same throughout the vineyard. And of course, it’s no shock horror, 100% mellow.

Natalie MacLean 00:21:33 we’ll get to that. So do you make about 5000 bottles on average?

Fiona Morrison 00:21:38 That’s about it. I’ve just been tasting all day today. The 23 lots and the 24 lots. We’ve done the bled for 23, but we just had 2 or 3 lots on the side that we wondered whether we could add to the wine to make a little bit more, but one we could, but three hours we couldn’t. And for 24, which is a small harvest, I think we’re looking at about 4000 bottles, which is a bit a bit sad, but that’s what it is.

Natalie MacLean 00:22:04 That’s what it is. And how would you characterize overall the 2023 and 2024 vintages for you?

Fiona Morrison 00:22:10 23 was a warm vintage, but we’ve got used to it. And without going into too much detail, there’s so much that we’ve done viticulture along with everyone in the wine business to combat the effects of climate change. It’s fascinating to see how everyone’s coping with that. I think we’re okay. I think we do not have to dig out the mellow and plant Tempranillo. It’s going to be okay. But it was a warm vintage, a late vintage for 23, slightly marked by the fact that the wine world was going to recession. So the wines actually were sold at an incredibly good price at about 20, 30, 40% discounts. So it’s a great vintage in Bordeaux to pick up value wise and a 24. It rained a lot. We did have some mildew. The wines were were born in a cool, wet vintage. But on the other side, on the positive side, the alcohols alone, they’re around 12.5 13, whereas some vintages we have 14.5 15.

Fiona Morrison 00:23:11 So we like that and they’ve got lovely silky textures. It’s rather like going back to the to the 80s, going back to the old days. But I think the trend now is to go for more elegant, more appetizing wines. I think we’re sliding away from the big bucks, big sort of blockbuster wines. I don’t know what your thing is, but, you know, tasting and food and wine matching. I think that the more cuisine that we’re eating is more healthy, more vegetable based, more natural. So we need wines that have got that more silky elegance rather than a sort of rich blockbuster density to them.

Natalie MacLean 00:23:51 Absolutely. Yeah. The fruit bombs just overwhelm food. But you’ve alluded to the price. People will be curious in a good vintage on average these days. How much does a bottle of your wine sell for? Well, we release.

Fiona Morrison 00:24:06 It to the trade, but of course, rather like in a lot of markets, including Canada, including the US, there are tiers. So if we release a wine at about €1,500, euros and dollars being modestly, honestly, that one probably will get to the consumer at about €2,500 euros.

Natalie MacLean 00:24:26 In Canadian dollars, that’s probably $3,500 or something like.

Fiona Morrison 00:24:29 Yeah, it’s a lot of money. And especially when we’re starting out, we used to drink a wine with a pipette out of the barrels, but then.

Natalie MacLean 00:24:36 We used hose stick to take samples.

Fiona Morrison 00:24:39 Yes, samples, because we said once it’s bottled, it’s beyond our means.

Natalie MacLean 00:24:44 So you can’t afford to drink your own wine. Got a drink? Going way. We drink it with our.

Fiona Morrison 00:24:48 Friends and our collectors who are.

Natalie MacLean 00:24:49 Like, yeah, invite us over to have our wine, please. Cobbler’s kids. And what’s the most anyone has ever paid for a bottle of your wine?

Fiona Morrison 00:24:57 Well, we do make very rarely double magnums that we use only for charity purposes, because if you make bigger than a magnum, there’s so much speculation around it, and we do not. We want our wines to be drunk, not to be traded. So that’s really important. So I would say about six months ago for a big charity. Somebody paid £50,000 in London for a double magnum, but it was a good course.

Fiona Morrison 00:25:26 It was a good course?

Natalie MacLean 00:25:27 Sure.

Fiona Morrison 00:25:28 It’s still a lot of money in the world.

Natalie MacLean 00:25:30 Yes, yes. Yeah, especially for rarities. So you’ve mentioned Merlot? Of course. The movie sideways back in the early 2000 did some damage, but it’s actually a remarkable grape. How do you tame it?

Fiona Morrison 00:25:44 Well, first of all, the first time I went to Napa after sideways came out and people said, well, what? What’s your blend? And I said, well, mellow. And they said, mellow and what? And I said, 100% mellow. And they would give me this very pitying look, you know, oh, gosh, you poor things. And I would say, well, actually we do. Okay. I remember going to Tokyo and giving the first big wine tasting in Tokyo, in the early 90s, and I had no one understanding what the difference between Cabernet and Mellow was. And Melo is a great but can be very fleshy. It doesn’t like really hot weather. It likes to keep its feet wet so it needs moisture.

Fiona Morrison 00:26:25 It can in those cases, if you shade the fruit a bit and let the grapes ripen, but under sort of parasol, the.

Natalie MacLean 00:26:34 Leafy canopy is what you’re referring to, right? Exactly. So you’re not cropping back the leaves so much.

Fiona Morrison 00:26:39 No. So you’ve got this lovely parasol effect, this dappled light effect.

Natalie MacLean 00:26:43 That’s nice.

Fiona Morrison 00:26:43 And you keep the area around the vine, especially the vine roots. And we’re doing a lot of work with fungi at the moment to do that. Exactly that. Then you can get a lovely balance and you can get some elegance. But if you crop very strongly and you take off the leaves, the wine can get quite vulgar quite quickly. And when I mean vulgar, it can get really rich, very sugary, because there’s of course much more jammy. There’s much more sugar and alcohol in mellow wineries and Cabernet, which may surprise some people. But Cabernet has less alcohol but mellow, which is a big, ripe, juicy fruit. So when we tame mellow, I’ve described what we do in a vineyard and in the cellar.

Fiona Morrison 00:27:27 We really do very little pumping over. We sort of use infusions rather than actually doing, pumping over and soaking the grapes to get the maceration.

Natalie MacLean 00:27:37 What are infusions to survive?

Fiona Morrison 00:27:39 Like when you’ve got your teabag in your tea, you have to wet the cap so that it doesn’t get dry and and tannic. But you’re just doing that. You’re not doing great sort of punching down or anything like that. You’re just letting things actually sort of stew quite nicely, but without any violence or any oversaturation, it seems to work.

Natalie MacLean 00:28:00 Yeah, so far so good. I’d say so. Steampunk is one of the ten families you write about in the book. What was the most difficult part of actually writing about a family of which you are a part.

Fiona Morrison 00:28:13 Well, one thing, it’s a very big family. Jack has, I think, over 35 different cousins. It’s a big Catholic family. And in those days there was not much television around. So there are lots of children. And I think being very close to everybody, I had to be careful not to offend people by really telling some stories about about the family, of course, but really sort of giving the inside look into our family and taking a step out and looking at Jack and I and what we’ve achieved or what we haven’t achieved, and describing things like the nervousness that you feel just before you’re picking the grapes or the slight bashfulness that we have when people about the price of our wines, but also the absolute love of being able to do a meeting, a career, but in 9:00 in the morning or 8:00 in the morning, you can be out pruning the vines in your Wellington boots and your jeans and gloves.

Fiona Morrison 00:29:12 And, you know, in that evening you could be in Paris in the Tory fell, serving your wines at a great banquet in evening attire. And I think we love that duality. It’s so much fun. All different sides of the business. And I think I try and give that impression and the fact that we are we are farmers, but we also have a lovely lifestyle as well. And it’s lovely to see people get so excited when they taste our wines.

Natalie MacLean 00:29:37 That’s great. Now, Tim Paul has 120 shareholders. That’s for visa to settle.

Fiona Morrison 00:29:45 Oh, I.

Natalie MacLean 00:29:45 See, which.

Fiona Morrison 00:29:46 Is the estate that we had in Palmer, which Jack and I christened Vvc because we thought that the chateau set on was too long. It’s become a really great wine and much appreciated around the world. Although it was born many in Belgium because the wines were shipped up in barrels to our family home in Belgium near Ghent and for the first 50 years of its life, it was pretty much bottled in Belgium, with just this year, 2024 celebrated the 100 year anniversary of the champagne family owning at home, which has been quite a mess.

Natalie MacLean 00:30:22 Congratulations. Yes. Well, there must be many shareholders still, even of tempo and the others. How do you resolve conflicts among so many different people who are involved, like they’re not maybe in the winery helping make the wine, but they’re there. All have a stake. Yeah, exactly.

Fiona Morrison 00:30:39 As you know, Natalie, a lot of the book is about how you resolve conflicts and how you prepare the next generation to take over. And in fact, having lots of shareholders is actually easier than having just 1 or 2 heirs, because the pressure when you’ve only got 1 or 2 heirs, and do those children actually want to take over in the wine business? It’s not a given. And the worst thing you can do is and this has happened, you know, with our family, but we’re very, very cautious about our two sons going into the business and we haven’t pushed them at all. But of course, they’ve grown up around wine and they’ve grown up being with with us with wine. But it’s absolutely their prerogative what they want to do it.

Fiona Morrison 00:31:23 Whereas if you’ve got 120 shareholders, there’s chances are there’s at least a few that are actually interested in wine and will go into it. But if you’ve got not many children, it’s actually much harder. And in fact, I think that more estates have been lost out of the family because of people not wanting next generation, not wanting to take over. Then actually having conflicts would be with people fighting for position. But a very interesting point on that. Lamberto Frescobaldi, who comes from a large family and is 30th generation of his family, has instituted a very strict qualifying process for anyone who wants to come into the business. They have to be wine lovers. They have to be university educated. They have to have some business experience. They have to have some wine experience. So you can’t just be to a manor born. You really do need to have paid your dues before you get into this business. It’s not a frivolous business. It’s probably one of the most complicated businesses. And it’s very easy to lose money, and it’s quite difficult to make money.

Natalie MacLean 00:32:37 Well, as anybody who’s watched the show, succession shows like Nepo Baby is not the way to go. I mean, you really do have to put the relatives through their hoops if you really want to choose good leadership at the top. So perhaps there are no books like this, but can you tell us what makes this book different from, say, other books about European wineries or families if they exist?

Fiona Morrison 00:32:59 I think Hugh Johnson put it very well in a forward to the book. He said that I had got to a place where no other wine writers can get, which is actually to the heart of his winemakers. I had to make sure that they trusted me, that they were going to open up to me, that I was going to take care of their stories. But when there were secrets that they could tell me as just as a way of giving me more information, but I could keep their secrets. But also I insisted on staying with the families.

Natalie MacLean 00:33:29 so you didn’t just do some zoom calls.

Natalie MacLean 00:33:31 You actually dug deeper.

Fiona Morrison 00:33:33 And I usually spent 2 or 3 days with them, and sometimes it meant sort of sipping cognac till 2:00 in the morning, or getting up early to go for a walk in the vineyards when there was still dew on the ground. Those are the conversations that you have that are really wonderful. And as you say, most of us, including me, gets to see people for just a snapshot of their lives. And I really wanted to get under the skin and meet other family members, meet the kids, made the parents sometimes be witness to some pretty heated moments. One family it was dark near sports. Family in Portugal, in Oporto were having a real humdinger about succession, with legal papers going backwards and forwards while I was there and me being sort of carted off to meet the parents and various family members. And so I was really at the eye of the storm for that. And what was absolutely wonderful was on Christmas Day that year. So a couple of months after I’d been visiting the property, both in Adoro and in Oporto, I got a text message on Christmas Day saying, Happy Christmas, Fiona.

Fiona Morrison 00:34:42 My sisters signed the papers. Hallelujah!

Fiona Morrison 00:34:45 Haha.

Fiona Morrison 00:34:46 It’s done.

Natalie MacLean 00:34:46 Yet.

Natalie MacLean 00:34:47 How did they resolve that? Like did they just vote? Or how do they resolve big conflicts like that? Especially when a younger generation wants to do something different?

Fiona Morrison 00:34:56 I think if there’s anyone out there who knows about family conflict, it’s a lot of discussion. It takes quite a lot of compromise. And of course it does take compromise. It’s certain, but it’s trying to make a win win situation and trying to sort of balance needs. But also, as I said, with Frescobaldi, you do need to have to be hard nosed about finding the right person for the job. You can’t be romantic about that. It often doesn’t work.

Natalie MacLean 00:35:21 Sure, sure. You’ve mentioned this in another conversation, but why did the book stay with me? Flanagan’s by Maurice Healy give you some inspiration, either for this book or for your writing.

Fiona Morrison 00:35:33 You’re referring to a wonderful old book that was written at the beginning of the 20th century, and I think those books were written by gentlemen, wine lovers, gentlemen, merchants who were generally passionate about wine, who did not have the technical terms to describe wine as we do.

Fiona Morrison 00:35:50 They would not talk about acidity or tannin or balance or residual sugar. They would just talk about wines, how they affected you personally, sensually. And I think we’re getting back to that way, because I think there’s nothing more boring than reading loads of rather dry tasting notes. And I loved that book because it was just generally joyful about what wine can do to us, and whether it’s a mood changer or it just makes you think of a book or a piece of music. And in those days, it was much more hedonistic and much more culturally open than it is today, which sometimes we can be a little bit too scientific. And I think it’s so important to capture the magic and make build bridges between experiences and the wine and tell stories, which brings wine alive much more, more and more. But I know about wine the more I try and put behind me the science. Unless we’re doing technical tastings and really talk about what effect a wine has on.

Natalie MacLean 00:36:59 So I think that’s what people resonate with, the emotion and the storytelling.

Natalie MacLean 00:37:04 That’s how to bring a lot of subjects alive, but especially wine, when words are so difficult to capture that subjective experience. Except you can allude then, to how it makes you feel. So I love how you do that. So the old adage about family businesses is that the first generation creates it, the second wastes it, in the third loses it. Harvard University stats back this up. 88% of family businesses don’t survive to the third generation. The families you profile run from the fourth generation to the 30th. In the case of Frescobaldi, were there any sort of specific ingredients that held these families together? Why they were successful when many other family businesses fail?

Fiona Morrison 00:37:48 I think the good side of wine business is the pride and the feeling that you are going to be passing it on to the next generation. Unlike corporations who get into the wine business when they’re looking for short time profit, and they often have shareholders to answer to most of the decisions family companies make. And this resonated everywhere I went after the long term.

Fiona Morrison 00:38:13 So if you replant a vineyard, you’re looking at it for sort of 20 years time. Because vines are like children, they really become interesting when they’re teenagers. And at that time in sort of 30, 40, 50, and then perhaps they get a little bit weaker later. But if you take care of my old vines are wonderful. So that continuity and that feeling of long termism is really, for me, the key ingredient to not having to satisfy a balance sheet. Of course, that’s important. And there are some pretty difficult situations where families have to say, look, we’re not going to be paying out of dividends into this year or we’re not going to be able to afford a new tractor. Well, if you do that in a family context, people understand they’ve got a much longer time frame where they can judge that. If you do that in a shorter term, or if you get into the wine business just to make money, it can be pretty precarious. You know, Natalie, the adage, you know, to make a great fortune in the wine business, you have to start with an even larger one.

Fiona Morrison 00:39:18 Yes, yes, you can make money. Yes, you can create serenity in the real estate business, everyone talks about location, location, location. But the key for wine is to buy the best terroir, the best vineyard land you can afford to make the wine. And almost everyone that I interviewed, even though some big companies such as Torres. What they’re looking for is site specific origins, good land that can be farmed, that can be maybe enriched or improved, but those elements which are very peasant like in a way, I mean, that side of the business is really important. It’s the key to continuity and per entity, I believe.

Natalie MacLean 00:40:09 Yes, absolutely. In choosing these ten families, you knew some of them, of course. Were there any other factors cultural, economic, political that influenced which ones you decided to include in the book?

Fiona Morrison 00:40:22 Well, I’ll tell you a little story. When a publisher approached me, it was actually a Belgian publisher first, and the book was first published in the Flemish language, in the Dutch language.

Fiona Morrison 00:40:31 They said, you know, we want you to do a book of ten greatest wines of the world. And I said, great. And I looked into buying around the world ticket. And so I presented them with a budget.

Fiona Morrison 00:40:40 Oh, really? And took a gulp and said.

Fiona Morrison 00:40:44 Maybe you should start with Europe. which actually made it very much easier for me because, you know, my day job is actually wine and not so much writing. I think the family got a little fed up when I would sort of after supper, I would go and retire and write a few chapters of the book, or write a few pages of a book. It squeezed in between lots of other activities. So of course, Europe became that factor. I wanted to make sure that I had a good covering in Europe, and I also wanted to make sure that I had families, that people knew about it. This was not a book about Jesse, the new small producer that I’ve discovered. It was really the operative word was families.

Fiona Morrison 00:41:27 The dynamic for me about how you adapt and how you call, how you create generations was, for me, the sort of driving force of a book.

Natalie MacLean 00:41:38 Far more interesting to they. They’ve kind of proved themselves through a multigenerational business. Well, there you have it. I hope you enjoyed our chat with Fiona. Here are my takeaways. Number one. How do you tame a grape like Merlot, which is actually higher in sugar and alcohol than Cabernet Sauvignon? Merlot is a grape that can be very fleshy, Fiona observes. It doesn’t like hot weather. It likes to keep its feet wet. So if you shade the fruit a bit and let the grapes ripen, this dappled light effect gives the wine a lovely balance and makes it an elegant wine as well. But if you crop too strongly and take off a lot of leaves that cannot be cover, the wine can get vulgar quite quickly, she says. Very sugary, very jammy. There’s much more sugar and alcohol in Merlot than there is in Cabernet, which may surprise some people.

Natalie MacLean 00:42:38 It did for me, actually. So when we tame Merlot, she says, what we also do in the cellar is very little pumping over. So, you know, that’s taking the wine that’s at the bottom of the tank and pushing it up and over the natural cap that forms at the top, and then punching that down, kind of circulating the wine, really. Instead, she says, we use infusions rather than pumping over and soaking the grapes to get the maceration. So the all the flavor and the tannins and all that other goodness out of the skins and into the juice. So an infusion is like when you have a teabag and you dip it into your hot water and it slowly, you know, lets out the flavor. She says we have to wet the cap so that it doesn’t get dry and tannic, but you’re just doing that. You’re not punching down or anything aggressive. Number two, what’s the little known history behind the cult wines of Le Pen in Bordeaux that sell for as much as $10,000 a bottle when first released, and then they get higher at auction with later vintages.

Natalie MacLean 00:43:43 As Fiona explains, la means pine tree. It’s spelt l e and then space pin. That’s why I said Lupin. At first the estate was called Shadow Lupin before Jack bought it in 1979. It’s a fairy tale story he heard from his uncle, who had their sister estate view Chateau set, that a magical one acre of land was coming up for sale. The family thought it was too expensive to buy to add a chateau, so Jack, who wasn’t married at the time, said, well, it’s just one hectare. It’s basically a vegetable garden. I think I can manage that myself. He started off very modestly, with a barrel borrowed here, a tank borrowed there, and did very artisanal winemaking. Then Fiona says all hell broke loose in a good way. With the release of the 1982 vintage, which was tasted by top US expert Robert Parker, and it became one of Parker’s first 100 point wines. The rest is history. And number three. Why is it an advantage to have many stakeholders in a family owned estate? Fiona notes that much of the book is about how you resolve family conflicts in a business, and how you prepare the next generation to take over.

Natalie MacLean 00:45:04 She says that having lots of stakeholders is actually easier than having just 1 or 2 heirs who face supreme pressure to take over the business, when in fact they may not want to. Whereas if you’ve got 120 stakeholders, chances are there’s at least a few that are actually interested in wine and will go into the business. Lamberto Frescobaldi, who is the 30th generation of his family my goodness, has instituted very strict qualifying processes for anyone who wants to come into the business. They have to be wine lovers, university educated and have some business and wine experience. So you can’t just be to the manor born in that family. You really do need to have paid your dues before you get into the business. And as Fiona says, wine is one of the most complicated businesses. It’s very easy to lose money and it’s quite difficult to make it. You know that old adage, how do you make a million in the wine business? You start with ten. In the show notes, you’ll find the full transcript of my conversation with Fiona, links to her website, and books the video versions of these conversations on Facebook and YouTube live, and where you can order my book online now, no matter where you live.

Natalie MacLean 00:46:19 If you missed episode 115, go back and take a listen. I chat about the wild changes happening in the Bordeaux region of France with author Jane Hanson. I’ll share a short clip with you now to whet your appetite. We’ve also mentioned that 70% of wine in Bordeaux used to be white or sweet. So was it the British influence that caused the flip to the red.

Jane Anson 00:46:45 I love that question. So those 300 years when it was English, it was mainly red. The English basically preferred red wine, drank more red wine. The switch in Bordeaux came after the English left when the Dutch came, because the Dutch have always been much more interested in white wine. But then from 1972 or 3 they switched to red. And today Bordeaux is 90% red wine. We tend to think of Bordeaux as being such a kind of traditional, unchanging region. But then just that one statistic tells you that Bordeaux is perfectly capable of changing and adapting to what consumers want.

Natalie MacLean 00:47:19 that’s a great insight to draw from it, and the fact that they remain outward focused with an international focus.

Natalie MacLean 00:47:25 You’re right.

Jane Anson 00:47:26 That’s a really good point.

Natalie MacLean 00:47:32 You won’t want to miss next week when we continue our chat with Fiona. If you liked this episode or learned even one thing from it, Please email or tell one friend about the podcast this week. Especially someone you know who’d be interested in learning more about the best wines from the great families of Europe. It’s easy to find the podcast. Just tell them to search for Natalie MacLean Wine on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, their favorite podcast app, or they can listen to the show on my website at Natalie MacLean. Com forward slash podcast. Email me if you have a SIP tip question, or if you’d like to win one of four copies of Fiona and Rosemary’s books. Or if you’ve read mine or listening to it, I’d love to hear your thoughts on this episode. Were you surprised about any of the family histories? Have you tried any of the wines that these families make? Can you afford them? Email me at Nathalie Natalie MacLean. Com better than that if you can’t afford them, come on over.

Natalie MacLean 00:48:32 In the show notes, you’ll also find a link to take a free online food and wine pairing class with me called the five Wine and Food Pairing Mistakes That Can Ruin Your Dinner and How to Fix Them Forever at Natalie MacLean. Com forward slash class. That’s all in the show notes at Natalie MacLean dot com forward slash 326. Thank you for taking the time to join me here. I hope something great is in your glass this week. Perhaps an affordable Bordeaux that gives you pleasure. You don’t want to miss one juicy episode of this podcast.

Natalie MacLean 00:49:10 Especially the secret full bodied bonus episodes that I don’t announce on social media. So subscribe for free now at Natalie MacLean. Com forward slash. Subscribe. Meet me here next week. Cheers.

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